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A realistic discusion of the coming Health Plan

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Turboguy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2009 at 12:12pm
Originally posted by Jacksdad Jacksdad wrote:

The insurance companies are scared that their monopoly is about to end and the inevitable misinformation is coming out.
 
And yet you'd happily replace a business monopoly with a government one, knowing full well that fraud, waste, and abuse are rampant at all levels of government? I hate defending the insurance companies on this issue, but what you're talking about here is worse than what we've got now. I do not want some nameless, faceless jackass in the government deciding what to or not to do in regards to me receiving any care I desire. Furthermore, this plan is SCARY! Have you read even part of the bill? I have. Why would the government want my bank account information? This is specifically cited in the bill sitting in front of your Represenative right now.
 
And I want you to point out one instance where the government needs to provide healthcare in the Constitution. I'll give you a hint: It's not there.
 
The example you've cited above, Jacksdad, is called emergency care. Not preventative or elective care. When someone needs to get their knee or hip replaced, check their wait times. You'll see six months to a year. Slipped disk (Third on the list of most painful afflictions behind kindey stones and giving birth) you get to wait four excruciating months for treatment. No thanks.
 
Also exactly how much medical technology innovation do you honestly expect to see come out of a socialized plan? Anyone that frequents this board should know that 95% of all innovation in the medical field comes from America because people want to make money from their inventions. You don't get no money when the gubmint owns all.
 
I asked this question in a previous thread: If our healthcare system is so crappy, why is it that people from other countries will come here for care, but Americans don't go anywhere else?
 
It's the same crap that's being pulled in Canada where the government unions are screaming bloody murder because private, for profit, clinics are opening their doors so people that want care now can skip the queue.
 
No thanks. I totally agree SOMETHING needs to be done, but this baby and bathwater throwing approach for a plan that's filled with garbage, liberal pet projects, and fraud is exactly wrong. I believe that maybe "He Who Brings The Light" might have read my solution in the other thread about a hybrid coop system though. The current bill in the House is probably going to get scrapped... A good thing... for an elective cooperative plan that's akin to paying for car insurance.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2009 at 12:20pm
just reading- the posts are more interesting than anything I could put up at this point..
thanks to those contributing some interesting stuff.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote aquarian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2009 at 3:52pm
If the dohbamans' plan made any sense they would give numbers defining the benefit. Instead they chose the way of the shape-shifter, ever lacking in form or logic, choosing fear as coercion. Thus they make obvious their true desire - your freedom in exchange for Their Way. Posse comitatus exists for a reason. Vigilance !

The truth is still out there...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 1:09pm
   My wife (a US citizen) waited 6 months here in the States for a partial laminotomy to relieve pressure on a nerve in her back. She had to be transported to the ER on the day her disk herniated because she couldn't get up off the floor, and by the time the scheduled surgery was finally carried out 6 months later she was addicted to the oral morphine she'd been prescribed for the pain. She was admitted  to the ER twice during the wait when the pain got too much for her, even with painkillers. I called her surgeon about it each time it put her back in the ER and was told that six months was the best they could do.
   She also has asthma, and whereas in the UK she was treated immediately at different hospitals and clinics on three different occasions when she had attacks after her inhalers ran out, every trip to the ER here in the States has resulted in waits of at least a couple of hours, by which time a simple albuterol nebulizer treatment won't cut it. The wait was so long that they had to admit her for five days on one occasion.
   I came off a mountain bike a few years ago and suffered a grade 3 shoulder separation. It didn't puncture the skin fortunately, but my collarbone was so prominent it punched a hole in the t-shirt I was wearing, my left arm was a couple of inches longer that the right, I had tingling and numbness in my hand, and the bones in my shoulder would grind together. Despite that, it still took 6 months before I was able to get my doctor to agree that it needed to be surgically repaired over here (a two hour outpatient procedure that fixed all the symptoms). These are the kinds of wait times people hold up as examples of how the UK system is a failure, and yet me and my family have experienced them here under the private sector system.
  TG - I'm not trying to bring about a socialist revolution with this one. When I talk about healthcare I'm going on personal experience of two different systems that are poles apart, and you also have to understand that I have medical/dental/vision benefits for my family through work. I'm not fighting for me, but for the adults and kids in this country who don't get the care a first world country should give them.
    In the UK, if you're not happy with the NHS you have the option of going private. I'd absolutely oppose any attempt to make a government run system the only option, but I believe that we don't have competition in the marketplace right now because the insurance companies are all in bed with each other - they all got together and had themselves a nice cozy little convention in San Diego recently. They look after themselves at our expense. Why else are medical costs are so much higher in the States without the commensurate increase in health? We have an industry that has no competition except itself.
  If you're in the military you should get the very best of care from the VA, and likewise if you're a US citizen you shouldn't be excluded from getting medical care or receive second rate care because of your financial situation. That's how the second and third world operates - your kidneys fail in Manilla and unless you have deep pockets you'd better get your affairs in order and say your goodbyes in the next month. That's a deplorable situation in the twenty first century, and not what we should be aiming for here in the States - we should have our sights set way higher simply because we're better than that.
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hotair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 1:28pm
I think I have made it pretty clear where I stand on this issue.No matter which insurance company I call, they have their rates all jacked up to be the same.There has to be competition in the market place!I am so sory about your wife,Jacksdad.I hope all is well now!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 1:39pm
   She's doing good - thanks for asking. 
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote no-bama4me Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 2:59pm
Well said jacksdad. Its always nice to read something based upon personal experience rather than just repeated from an email forward or rumor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 17 2009 at 8:24pm
Originally posted by no-bama4me no-bama4me wrote:

Well said jacksdad. Its always nice to read something based upon personal experience rather than just repeated from an email forward or rumor.


   You're welcome. It's nice to have a discussion that's not deteriorated into the usual unpleasantness. Maybe there's hope for us all yet. Damn - hope I didn't just jinx us  Wink
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 3:11am
Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

     TG - I'm not trying to bring about a socialist revolution with this one. When I talk about healthcare I'm going on personal experience of two different systems that are poles apart, and you also have to understand that I have medical/dental/vision benefits for my family through work. I'm not fighting for me, but for the adults and kids in this country who don't get the care a first world country should give them.
 
Again don't get me wrong. I agree with you 100% that SOMETHING needs to be done. The Insurance companies are and have been in cahoots for far too long now and are making money off people's suffering, but it's a systemic problem that's not simply limited to the insurance companies themselves, the problem starts all the way down at the provider level. When a business like a hospital has paid for an MRI machine it costs them, let's say three million dollars just for argument's sake. They pay for that MRI machine many, many times over and are making huge profits at the insurance company's expense, which is then passed down to the patients.
 
Six or seven years ago I had a bout with syncope (I worked out too hard and fainted) and someone called 911 who took me three miles to the hospital. I was charged $1700.00 for a ride to the hospital, where they took my blood pressure and hooked me up to an EKG which came back normal. I was in their care for under half an hour! I simply can not justify charging people $3400 dollars an hour regardless of what's wrong with them short of a transplant or burn victim.
 
Originally posted by Jacksdad Jacksdad wrote:


In the UK, if you're not happy with the NHS you have the option of going private. I'd absolutely oppose any attempt to make a government run system the only option,
 
The provision in front of your represenative says that you can keep your private policy until it runs out, then you're on the government's dime, and if you have any children they can't be added to your policy, they're also on the government's dime. Lastly, if I elect to not be on the government program, I still have to pay into the government system, thus making me pay twice for care. That is simply not fair. If I want a private company, I should be able to opt out of government asistance.
 
The Canadian system, which it is thought ours is being modeled after, there is no provision for out of pocket, going private. You go into a queue and when your number comes up, you get seen.
 
Originally posted by Jacksdad Jacksdad wrote:

Why else are medical costs are so much higher in the States without the commensurate increase in health? We have an industry that has no competition except itself.
 
I tackled this one earlier, and agree with you, but it's not just teh insurance companies colluding, it's every stage of medical care. No matter what you get done, say a broken leg, and you go to the Mayo clinic or the University of Nevada Medical Center you get charged nearly the same for care.
 
Originally posted by Jacksdad Jacksdad wrote:


  If you're in the military you should get the very best of care from the VA, and likewise if you're a US citizen you shouldn't be excluded from getting medical care or receive second rate care because of your financial situation.
 
Whoo boy, check a VA out some time. Some of them are extremely awesome, if packed to the gills. The one I use in Minnesota is a first rate medical facility that I would go to with confidence. The hospital that I went to through Scott AFB Illinois (They've got a contract deal with a local hospital) was one of the most harrowing visits I've ever dealt with, and all I had was a tonsil infection. I sat in the waiting area for eight hours, had a throat culture done, then got some antibiotics. There was a woman that was genuinely having a heart attack get told that the doctor would be right with her and to sit down! I went ballistic, grabbed a passing doctor, and forced him to look at that woman. He said, "My God, she's having a heart attack!" and took her away. Another woman had a broken tibia that was horrifically broken, she sat with me and talked. She got there twenty minutes before I did, and sat for six hours in a waiting room in a wheelchair without painkillers before she was seen. If this is the care people receive at a government run facility, then I'll politely decline and go with the private option. Situations like I'm describing won't become the exception under a government plan, they'll be the rule.
 
Edit: I own page 3!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 8:08am
Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

   I was born and spent the first thirty years of my life in the UK, and I think universal healthcare is something any country that wants to call itself civilized should aspire to. The insurance companies are scared that their monopoly is about to end and the inevitable misinformation is coming out. The "death panel" quote from Palin is one that particularly galls me, as that's exactly how I would characterize what happens when insurance companies here routinely refuse to pay for life saving treatments. Wake up people - your fellow citizens are allowed to die here when cash becomes an issue, and that's a system that definitely needs to be changed. Watch the movie "John Q" - I work in healthcare and that's just how it works. In Britain, the criteria for heart transplants doesn't have anything to do with your bank balance or your credit rating.
    I read that someone recently commented how Stephen Hawking would undoubtedly have been allowed to die from ALS if he was British and the National Heath Service (NHS) had been responsible for his care. Where to start with this one? Firstly, Stephen Hawking is British (his voice synthesizer has the American accent. Duh...) and secondly, following the article - published in Investor's Business Daily - he has credited the NHS with actually saving his life.
   The wait times that are thrown around are no longer than the ones my wife and I have experienced in the US for surgeries. Recently a friend of mine in Britain suffered a serious riding accident and came out of it with six breaks in her pelvis, four broken ribs and a cracked collarbone. She was stabilized in hospital after emergency treatment and transported to another hospital within days for surgery on her pelvis. Following the surgery she had excellent afer care and therapy, and after several weeks in hospital she was sent home with follow up therapy to get her back on her feet. Her cost for care that she rated as excellent? Nothing out of her pocket. What's wrong with a system that takes care of you like that?
    Although the NHS is not without it's problems (someone please point me in the direction of the perfect system) the WHO ranks British healthcare as 18th in the world, while the US is way back in 37th place. The relative cost is two to three times higher in the States as compared to other countries - something directly attributable to the lack of competition here.
   What we're talking about here is the same money minded thinking that got Wall Street into the mess we're bailing them out of now. Bottom line is that big business looks after it's shareholders - patients come second to profits. The US system was designed for the healthy. Get too sick and they'll drop you. Have a pre-existing condition? Your copay just sky rocketed, if you can get coverage at all. And people are fighting to keep them in charge of the health of themselves and their families? Go figure...
 
____________________________________________________________________
 
Words that just are not being heard by some. ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
Instead they bring semi automatice rifles to presidential events, with signs of hatred, Fear, and conspiricy theories of red commies taking over the country.
 
Meanwhile our families are destroyed, and millions go without, for what?? 
 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debracanice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2009 at 10:07pm
The internet will change that , /For the first time we are the media .
not some stupid think tank , not some study done by a cigerate company . at least we will be imformed to say its byu a cigerate company
 
What I mean things are changing fast , the truth about whatever is available 
 
take the whole issue with the womean who claimed she had brain cancer and the Canadian goverment said to wait a year
she had a cyst not life threatning , she has been wined and dined by your insurance companies .  the internet changed how much imforamtion you get . you can look up our coverage of you system . you have dfirect link
 
Both countries have never looked at each other so closely and this will become a pattern that insurance companies wont be able to drown out    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 3:43am
Originally posted by newgirl newgirl wrote:

Here's another topic that kind of overwhelms me.  I don't even really know where to begin to look to get an understanding of it.  Does this mean people with no insurance now (me) would have insurance?  Because that seems like it would be a good thing.... ?


NewGirl- even though I launched this thread I have mostly lurked and read. Some very informative and insightful posts.

The essence of the Senate bill in committee which we have a copy of- as interpreted by some is a huge list of platitudes ending with 'the committee will decide' who gets what thus invalidating the benign feel of the bill as a whole. One of or advisers has said bluntly - if it isn't broken, why fix it? The American health system does in a way provide health care for everyone, it simply does not make them pay for it. Under the new system we would pay more for less. However, U.K. and Canada have a rather intense tax system as exemplified by the Beatles song Taxman and Ringo move to Morocco as to avoid it . These kind of programs move us towards socialism which Putin and other Russian have cautioned - was not a real winner for the U.S.S.R. nor would t be for us. Someone must pay the bill for these glorified tax and spend democratic typical endeavors- which stir the masses with dreams of give me give me- and obscure the reality of the inceased taxation of the the miiddle class and a lot of frowning Chinese and other more knowledgeable source who know meanin of th term.. money pit.

My point- the new health care plan = money pit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Money_Pit

Sensing the growing grassroots opposition to the coming health care plan, President Obama in private conference is not as calm about things and recent in closed door meetings with the head of the CDC stated 'take the grassroots events where millions of people support are lost with each town hall meeting- more seriously."

Better the beast we know- medicare- medical- etc. and its stumbling functionality than trying to take medicare away from people or their existing health care packages. There will be a massive resistance to this.

From the moment Walter and Anna take possession of the house, it quickly begins to fall apart. The entire front door frame rips out of the wall, the main staircase collapses, the plumbing is found to be full of gunk, the electrical system catches fire, the bathtub crashes through the floor (this causes Walter to laugh vehemently), the chimney collapses, and a raccoon has invaded the dumbwaiter.

Contractors Art (Joe Mantegna) and Brad Shirk (Carmine Caridi) are called in, work permits are issued, and the job is originally estimated to take two weeks. This is because the original intent was to demolish the house. Still, the estimate of two weeks is a running gag throughout the movie. (When asked how long a process will take, the answer is always "two weeks"). Walter is increasingly frustrated by the delays and increasing cost and dubs the house “the money pit".

The repair work ends up taking four months. Anna attempts to secure more funds from Max by selling him some artwork she received in their divorce. Max doesn't care about the artwork, but gives her the money anyway. He wines and dines her, and she ends up in a compromising situation. (The morning after he agrees to buy the paintings from Anna, Max allows her to believe her assumption — having woken up in Max's bed — that she has cheated on Walter, but in reality she has not). Walter later asks Anna point-blank if she slept with Max, but Anna hastily denies it. Walter's suspicions push Anna to admit that she slept with Max, but the damage is done. Anna later confides in Max that, "He (Walter) can't forgive me, and I can't forgive him for that."

Due to Walter and Anna’s stubbornness, their relationship becomes more and more hostile, and in a rare moment of agreement, vow to sell the house once it is restored and split the proceeds. This nearly happens, but Walter misses Anna and says he loves her anyway, even if she did sleep with Max. Anna happily states that she didn’t sleep with Max, and the two reconcile. In the end, they are married in front of their new house.

The movie ends with a cutaway to Rio De Janeiro, where Estelle and Carlos (John van Dreelen) — now revealed to be con artists — are taking a cash-filled briefcase from Walter's father, who is thrilled to be getting such a great deal for a house.



Execellent comments though... slipping back into the shadows..

J. CDefense
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Who Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 6:21am
Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

  

 
Words that just are not being heard by some. ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
Instead they bring semi automatice rifles to presidential events, with signs of hatred, Fear, and conspiricy theories of red commies taking over the country.
 

 


the man who brought the gun to the town hall hated all government and would have been just as likely to have brought a gun to a town hall with any administration in power. He was in no way representative of the majority of people who simply do not like this plan.
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Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

   I was born and spent the first thirty years of my life in the UK, and I think universal healthcare is something any country that wants to call itself civilized should aspire to.

Any socialised country should aspire to that - and then they should realize they made a mistake and aspire to become a capitalist country.

What they should aspire to is for those who want to give to provide for the needs of those who are in need. In the states we have accomplished that goal. Unless a person does not seek care they can get it. Either through insurance, private pay, or through public aid.


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The insurance companies are scared that their monopoly is about to end and the inevitable misinformation is coming out.
Yes, misinformation is out there. Most of the objcections are right on the money but there is some misinformation. Do you have any evidence that the source of the misinformation is the insurance companies? because I could provide numerous examples of misleading information coming from the Obama administration.

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 The "death panel" quote from Palin is one that particularly galls me, as that's exactly how I would characterize what happens when insurance companies here routinely refuse to pay for life saving treatments.


If an agencey that routinely denies medical treatment can be characterized as a death panel then it is completely fair to say that a government panel that is designed to determine what treatments are given or denied is a death panel. Why would you be galled that someone called one death panel a death panel while at the same time you are calling another one a death panel? Of course when the death panel run by the insurance company denies treatement one can appeal to a judge and then apply for public aid. When a death panel run by gov denies your treatment you can run to another country like the Canadiens do. Oh wait, the world is running out of countries to run to.


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Wake up people - your fellow citizens are allowed to die here when cash becomes an issue, and that's a system that definitely needs to be changed.


Here in the US no one is denied treatment for lack of money. 100% of our citizens can apply to public aid.


Quote
 Watch the movie "John Q" - I work in healthcare and that's just how it works. In Britain, the criteria for heart transplants doesn't have anything to do with your bank balance or your credit rating.


In Britain people are denied health care based on the bank balance of the government.

Quote
    I read that someone recently commented how Stephen Hawking would undoubtedly have been allowed to die from ALS if he was British and the National Heath Service (NHS) had been responsible for his care. Where to start with this one? Firstly, Stephen Hawking is British (his voice synthesizer has the American accent. Duh...) and secondly, following the article - published in Investor's Business Daily - he has credited the NHS with actually saving his life.


Someone made a mistake by saying that Hawking was not a citizen of Britian and made a retraction the next day.But the point they were making was that in Britain they rate the worthiness of a person to receive care and people in wheelchairs are rated lower than others. Hawking was lucky he is also a genious and that the care he needed was not super expensive. Otherwise he might just have found himself to be rated too low.

Quote
   The wait times that are thrown around are no longer than the ones my wife and I have experienced in the US for surgeries. Recently a friend of mine in Britain suffered a serious riding accident and came out of it with six breaks in her pelvis, four broken ribs and a cracked collarbone. She was stabilized in hospital after emergency treatment and transported to another hospital within days for surgery on her pelvis. Following the surgery she had excellent afer care and therapy, and after several weeks in hospital she was sent home with follow up therapy to get her back on her feet. Her cost for care that she rated as excellent? Nothing out of her pocket. What's wrong with a system that takes care of you like that?


I am glad that you rate high enought, and have not experienced a situation that cause you to have long waits. But the long waits do exist for many Britians and there is zero doubt that if we get universalal single payer we will have very long wait times too. Sometimes on the order of many months.

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    Although the NHS is not without it's problems (someone please point me in the direction of the perfect system) the WHO ranks British healthcare as 18th in the world, while the US is way back in 37th place. The relative cost is two to three times higher in the States as compared to other countries - something directly attributable to the lack of competition here.


The WHO ranked countries on several measures. the measure of how well the system responed to a persons needs ranked the US #1. The measures of how socialistic a country is caused the US to drop way down. I would much rather have a medical system to provided for my needs than one that was more socialistic.

The cost in the US is ore because we get more.  It cost money to buy new microscopes for the labs rather than to use 50 year old scopes like they do in canada. It also costs more to get the latest and the greatest of anything. It also cost more to treat people who have the highest rates of homicides, and junk food and smoking. And it cost more to provde as many plastic surgeries as we get here.

Meanwhile other countries hide the cost of their health care. Lower employment costs money. And when doctors in the us have to charge higher wages to recpoup their cost of going to school that will raise wages. In France the government sends medical students to school at taxpayer expense. So people pay those costs one way or another they just don't know it.

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   What we're talking about here is the same money minded thinking that got Wall Street into the mess we're bailing them out of now


The mess they have was government caused and we should not bail them out.

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. Bottom line is that big business looks after it's shareholders - patients come second to profits.
And government makes sure that they don't harm people are fail to live up to their contracts. Is government doing that? If yes then there is no problem.

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 The US system was designed for the healthy.
the us insurance industy was designed for the healthy as it should be. But we also have a private pay system and a public aid system which are both designed for everyone.

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 Get too sick and they'll drop you.

 You and I think that is wrong. It is the governments job to stop companies from harming people. Why are they not doing their job?


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Have a pre-existing condition?


When was the last time you bought auto insurance for an accident you already had? how about homeowners insurace for a home that was already burned to the ground?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 10:49am
"If you're in the military you should get the very best of care from the VA..."

   Turboguy - the reason I worded it the way I did is because I know how it varies wildly across the board. I've worked in healthcare for about 15 years and I've heard both praise and condemnation for the VA. As an EMT I spent a lot of time at my local VA hospital transporting patients to and from the facility. On one occasion I transported a veteran 150 miles in the back of the rig on his own dime because he didn't wanted to be treated at the closest VA hospital and insisted on being taking to another of his choosing because of what he considered less than ideal care. My feelings on the subject are that military service should entitile you to the very best that can be offered for as long as you need it.
   While we're on the subject - are you still deployed?
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 10:52am
"When was the last time you bought auto insurance for an accident you already had? how about homeowners insurace for a home that was already burned to the ground?"

  Exactly - that's why accountants should dictate the terms of your car and home owners insurance, but not be in complete control of the health of you and your family. Thank you for making that point better than I did Thumbs%20Up
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"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ShaRenKa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 5:13pm
     I'm sorry to disagree with those who see no big deal with the Health bill going through;( When read,you discover that eventually the Government will end up pushing/forcing out all of us who wish to keep the great insurance we have now,and make us turn to them for health care. Then you have to look at just "WHO" Obama has working very closely with him, his Czars. Almost all of them have or still do back things such population control. The elderly, sickly, disabled will go without. No doubt here folks,all one has to do is read. Unfortunately most of our Senators, Congressmen have absolutely no clue as to whats in the bill. Nothing new, just pass the dang thing because Obama says to.
     Lets not forget to look at everything else they have ran for us;) Social Security, Medicaid, the Post office....all failures. Now they have their mitts into the Banks, Auto Industries, next our precious health care, what could be next!?
     This health bill is but a small part of things being passed without our knowledge. Oh! And let us not forget this part of the health bill.... The government will require to know your personal checking account number..hmmm wonder why that is? People better wake up and become Politically Literate real soon, before it's too late. The days of sitting back and voting strictly democrat or republican are over...we are loosing our Constitutional rights on both sides!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 8:48pm
One thing I know for sure... bikes are.... Very... dangerous.   I know a guy who fell over the front of his bike, tired after a race.  He had the collar bone thing.  No bikes...no thanks.
Walking is excellent exersize.  Some of the Health Ins in NYS is ...ok... but they don't cover very expensive care like... eye exams and glasses... Dentalwork..remember the connection to Dental health and heart problems? and no hearing exams or hearing aids...elderly need that...and it's extremely expensive.  The HEAD needs to be PART OF the Body....hello?
 
 
I wanted to see about a tax credit for a new storm door... etc... and I went to the Govt site... They want you to ask..for a special Manufacturers code... have a special type of installer... and you need to read this...and figure it out...I am thinking very few people who really need to tighten up their older homes will understand all this or bother to do it.
 
 
It's insane.  To offer what sounds intelligent...helpful...and then to find it is an exersize in mental futility.... another Govt. wiz bang program... brought to you by tax payer dollars... go ahead, just try to get a few of them back.
 
 
If you can make sense of this...you are amazing.  It goes on for a mile.
 
(and they want to control our health care?)  I am afraid.  But I know we need health care for all.
 
 
 
 
excerpt...
 
 

Part III - Administrative, Procedural, and Miscellaneous

Nonbusiness Energy Property

Notice 2009-53

SECTION 1. PURPOSE

This notice updates interim guidance, pending the issuance of regulations,

relating to the credit for nonbusiness energy property under § 25C of the Internal

Revenue Code. Specifically, this notice provides procedures that manufacturers may

follow to certify property as either eligible building envelope components or qualified

energy property, as well as guidance regarding the conditions under which taxpayers

seeking to claim the § 25C credit may rely on a manufacturer's certification.

Additionally, this notice provides guidance about changes made to the § 25C credit by

the Energy Improvement and Extension Act of 2008 (EIEA), Division B of Pub. L. No.

110-343, 122 Stat. 3765 (2008), and the American Recovery and Reinvestment Tax Act

of 2009 (ARRTA), Division B of Pub. L. No. 111-5, 123 Stat. 115 (2009). This notice

also provides transition rules for certain nonbusiness energy property acquired before

June 1, 2009, and for certain nonbusiness energy property placed in service after

December 31, 2008. The Internal Revenue Service (Service) and the Treasury

Department expect that the regulations will incorporate the rules set forth in this notice.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 9:18pm
  I've been lucky - I've come off my bike quite a few times over the years, and although I have patches of skin that don't tan anymore from being scraped off too many times, I'm still here. The fall prior to the one that messed up my shoulder happened because I had someone open a car door in front of me as I was sprinting at about 30mph. I bounced twice (actually my head) and when I came to a stop I looked up and saw the tread of a truck tire a foot from my face. Luckily he was paying enough attention to stop after he saw me go airborne in front of him. After being strapped to a back board and loaded into an ambulance with my bike (they do fit in the back - I know from experience) the ER doc gave me a lecture about not wearing a helmet. I'm bad - I don't. As I pointed out, there's nothing up there to damage. Ask anyone that knows me  Wacko
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"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 19 2009 at 9:36pm
I'm hearing your wife say...
 
 
never a dull moment.   :)
 
 
and here I am looking at how the Congress (send in the ...)  introduces Bills...
 
Now keep in mind we all want good Health Care for all... (some how) and we want
 
to understand what it is they will do for us and how they will pay for it...
 
 
Before we sign on the dotted line.... is that too much to ask?   It is done for every sane
 
transaction I'm aware of, all parties are aprised of the contents prior to agreement.
 
Why is this Health Care Plan...  any different?   It's our tax dollars... hello?
 
 
oh their wonderous Congressional ways....   (I remember ( lived in CT for a while)  the big
 
thing there at the time was legal jargon to be written in an easy readable form for all...not a bad idea.)
 
 
Congress could get a grip and stop the games.... they are many.
 
 
 

ok now.... follow the pea...er    Bill

Which cup is it under?
 
 
excerpt-

Other Legislation with the Same Title

The list below shows legislation in this and previous sessions of Congress
 
 
 that had the same title as this bill.
 
 
Often bills are incorporated into other omnibus bills,
 
and you may be able to track the status of provisions of this bill
 
by looking for an omnibus bill below.
 
Note that bills may have multiple titles.
 
109th Congress: S. 969: Attacking Viral Influenza Across Nations Act Dead
 
109th Congress: H.R. 4062Dead
 
 
This bill never became law. This bill was proposed in a previous session of Congress.
 
 
Sessions of Congress last two years, and at the end of each session all proposed bills and resolutions that haven't passed are cleared from the books.
 
 
Members often reintroduce bills that did not come up for debate under a new number in the next session. 
 
Last Action: Dec 17, 2005: Sponsor introductory remarks on measure. (CR S13960)
 
Sets forth prohibitions against charging excessive prices during a public health emergency for, reporting false pricing information to the Secretary about, or employing a manipulative or deceptive device or contrivance in connection with the purchase or sale of, drugs, devices, or biologics for the prevention or treatment of influenza at wholesale.

.....................................
 
hopfully that part was inserted ....again.... somewhere else?
 
 
 
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