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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 6:43am
Originally posted by Scott E Scott E wrote:

I could be wrong here but I suspect that the majority of the electorate would support almost any government response, however brutal, to widespread civil unrest.

The various enforcement agencies cannot do much about small groups other than to enforce a curfew and shoot everything that moves. Large groups will be much easier to eliminate with traditional military techniques.

Without law and order you can't plant or harvest, you can't transport anything, you can't travel, you can't own and you can't invest. Defending what you have is a costly and time consuming exercise and the cost is too great for any developed country to comtemplate.

Expect a few brief appeals to the electorate followed by what can only be described as draconian measures.


Scott, you may be right, but IF the feds follow the law, they can't cone in unless asked, or Martial law is declared, and that takes a act of congress.

Thats what happen with Katrina. The La. gov. and NO mayor would cry on TV for help, but wouldn't sign the form.


Bill, you make the point I've been trying to make. You won't be able to go it alone. The best defense will take a group. If we can't limit exposure, then we will have the equipment to be around others, and not contaminate our selves, or bring in back to family.   
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 7:54am
I think people from europe sometimes miss that we have two forms of government. Most countries in europe have one. That we are like 50 countries in one. I believe with La, Bush wanted the govenor to give up too much authority. She wanted help, but Bush wanted her to just turn it all over to him.
 
Wolf, I gave some tips on defending a town, as for groups being better. I leave all options on the table. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I believe there are too many factors, too many scenarios. The pool of people somebody might have to pick from could be in question. Only 1% are prepping, will they be knocking on the door every meal time. Are they reliable, it only takes one to fall asleep. I just can't single out one option. I try to put all options out for debate, to try to discuss the pluses and minuses. Then people can pick the one that they feel is the best for them. I could end up in a group, but I'm not ready to comit to one at this time. My neighbors think I'm mr doom and gloom, and I would not sleep well knowing my life depended on them. I think debating something is good, I believe you learn more.
 
I was wondering, have you thought about communications. Setting up a type of hot loop. Between your posts at the end of the street and a post where a backup can be alerted. It's just an idea that came to mind. Two way radios could work, if you had a way to charge them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 8:16am
My point is this. There are certain things that governments simply can't allow to happen under any circumstances. It follows that if certain situations arise then they will simply do what must be done and remove any and all obstacles, including the law or the constitution.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KwaiChangCaine Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 10:06am
Originally posted by Scott E Scott E wrote:

My point is this. There are certain things that governments simply can't allow to happen under any circumstances. It follows that if certain situations arise then they will simply do what must be done and remove any and all obstacles, including the law or the constitution.
 
I'll have to disagree Scott, even to the point of defending the Constitution if necessary.  If you get rid of the Constitution then the government has become your evil gang.
 

People should not fear their government, their government should fear the people

Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts. - Albert Einstein
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Originally posted by pspiegel pspiegel wrote:

      
Seems to me the "vets" could make up the gangs. They're trained and easily organized, and are more likely than many to have weapons. And indeed, what is an army, or a platoon, but a gang sanctioned and sponsored by the government?


I don't think u understand vets very well
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 10:17am
Originally posted by Scott E Scott E wrote:

My point is this. There are certain things that governments simply can't allow to happen under any circumstances. It follows that if certain situations arise then they will simply do what must be done and remove any and all obstacles, including the law or the constitution.

    

Every single politician, military person and Law enforcement person has sworn to defend the constitution against all enemies foreign and domestic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 10:36am
In diplomatic speak "Your comments are noted."

The guys who wrote your own constitution were men of vision and I would be astounded if they had not made provision for its temporary suspension subject to the general agreement of your elected representatives.

This has no bearing whatsoever on my comment that there are certain things that governments can't allow to happen under any circumstances.

There are, no doubt, certain things that your armed forces would not permit under any circumstances and this would apply whether the solution was legal or not. The first duty of any government is defence of the nation.

(Trigger happy spelling fanatics should note my location)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 11:22am

Some one corrects me if I have this wrong.  Isn’t marshal law the suspension of the constitution and civil rights?

 
Never mind I found it Big smile
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For other uses, see Martial law (disambiguation).

Martial law is the system of rules that takes effect (usually after a formal declaration) when a military authority takes control of the normal administration of justice.

Usually martial law reduces some of the personal rights ordinarily granted to the citizen, limits the length of the trial processes, and prescribes more severe penalties than ordinary law. In many countries martial law prescribes the death penalty for certain crimes, even if ordinary law does not contain that crime or punishment in its system.

Originally martial law was imposed during wars or occupations to let the government control population more effectively in spite of heightened unrest. Nowadays it is most commonly used by authoritarian governments to enforce their rule, for example after coup d'état (Thailand 2006), when threatened by popular protests (PRC 1989), or to crack down on the opposition (Poland 1981). Martial law can also be declared in cases of major natural disasters, however most countries use a different legal construct like "state of emergency".

In many countries martial law imposes particular rules, one of which is curfew. Often, under this system, the administration of justice is left to a military tribunal, called a court-martial. The suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is likely to occur.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 11:42am

In strict dictionary terms, martial law is the suspension of civil authority and the imposition of military authority. When we say a region or country is "under martial law," we mean to say that the military is in control of the area, that it acts as the police, as the courts, as the legislature. The degree of control might vary - a nation may have a civilian legislature but have the courts administered by the military. Or the legislature and courts may operate under civilian control with a military ruler. In each case, martial law is in effect, even if it is not called "martial law."

Martial law should not be confused with military justice. In the United States, for example, each branch of the military has its own judicial structures in place. Members of the service are under the control of military law, and in some cases civilians working for or with the military may be subject to military law. But this is the normal course of business in the military. Martial law is the exception to the rule. In the United States, the military courts were created by the Congress, and cases can be appealed out of the military system to the Supreme Court in many cases. In addition, a civilian court can petition the military for habeas corpus.

Article 1, Section 9 states, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it." Habeas corpus is a concept of law, in which a person may not be held by the government without a valid reason for being held. A writ of habeas corpus can be issued by a court upon a government agency (such as a police force or the military). Such a writ compels the agency to produce the individual to the court, and to convince the court that the person is being reasonably held. The suspension of habeas corpus allows an agency to hold a person without a charge. Suspension of habeas corpus is often equated with martial law.

Because of this connection of the two concepts, it is often argued that only Congress can declare martial law, because Congress alone is granted the power to suspend the writ. The President, however, is commander-in-chief of the military, and it has been argued that the President can take it upon himself to declare martial law. In these times, Congress may decide not to act, effectively accepting martial law by failing to stop it; Congress may agree to the declaration, putting the official stamp of approval on the declaration; or it can reject the President's imposition of martial law, which could set up a power struggle between the Congress and the Executive that only the Judiciary would be able to resolve.

In the United States, there is precedent for martial law. Several times in the course of our history, martial law of varying degrees has been declared. The most obvious and often-cited example was when President Lincoln declared martial law during the Civil War. This instance provides us with most of the rules for martial law that we would use today, should the need arise.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 11:44am
Ahhh Rock,,,you must have beat me by a nano-second!!!
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hehe it is slow at the lumber yard
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 11:57am
Well, OK, I need a dozen Doug Fir common grade 2x4's (8 footers) a half dozen 5/8 OSB, and a box of nails.  Can you have it delivered.  I get home around 3:00 PM. Wacko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 12:05pm
I think it would be too much taking on, all the wars, and managing 50 states, with 300 million folks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 1:08pm
Bill: No government could take on the entire population but in a situation where 95% of the population demands protection by any means available I think that the government would act accordingly.

Note that the size of the poulation is largely irrelevant since the control mechanisms tend to be in direct proportion to the population concerned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 5:55pm
   Bill 100, I am also a vet and I would have no problem joining a group of people who were only looking for survival and need help. I do not believe that me or you or most Vets would join groups that had the intent of bulling people.-I know that there would be some,but those would be the ones that we would have to identify and put in his place. Over all, I believe that the vast majority of American Vets are good people. Johnray1    
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Every veteran I know seems to have the instinct to protect not harm. That goes for vets of all generations.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quickdraw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 7:45pm
Originally posted by Bill 100 Bill 100 wrote:

I believe if you show a group of thugs some fire power, there is a good chance they will back off. But if you show a group of renegade vets fire power they would see that as a challenge. But I believe most vets will want to help protect their neighborhoods. Then there are always some that will go the other way.
 
 
 
renegade vets can get shot just as easy as a group of thugs.
Everyday is a good day and if you dont believe that try missing one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote quickdraw Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 13 2006 at 7:56pm
Originally posted by PATB PATB wrote:

I truly fear gang violence will be #1.  There is random acts of violence now and with lack of law enforcement gangs will become wild animals on the hunt. The question for me is how do I respond to defending my property and myself against a kid?  I feel criminals are a sub-culture of society and cannot be treated in a humane way.  These gang kids have no morals and no sense of right or wrong. I won't know until the moment comes. We just had 12 kids arrested as a home envasion gang and two of them were so young they couldn't show their face on the news. The rest were about 17-18 yrs. Picture looking out the window to see cocky, intent to cause harm gang on the way to your house....
 
 
you said how do you respond to defending your property and your self against a kid in a gang. you shoot his ass just like an adult.
Everyday is a good day and if you dont believe that try missing one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PATB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2006 at 3:27pm
Our solution for the day is...back the van up to the garage door so no one can see what, how much, you are unloading.  For now, no one knows how we have "expanded" our pantry.  We can address a change in our pattern at a late date.  For now, we do not really know the friend from foe.  What a shame.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PATB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2006 at 3:34pm
According to the AZ Daily Star on Wed. 12/13/06, there are 21 Indian Tribes in AZ....I think I will go the the tribe website refered earlier in the post to see if there is any buzz
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2006 at 4:24pm
tigger2....you sound scared and a bit like a blowhard...relax and get some sleep!!!!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dr d Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2006 at 5:18pm
I have a rescue center for cats. I've turned the three car garage into a cat room with walkways hidey holes etc. the pull down attic stairs is also in there. I had put into closed containers all the toilet paper,tissues,tampax,chux(for sick or injured folks). All of these put up and out of the way and out of thought processes.The #10 cans with the freeze dried foods are also out there.They are in with the 9mos of cat and dog food. small ajrs of jelly that can be eaten in 2 days,small peanut butter containers.cotton candy does NOT do well....boo hoo...
 
Ya' know that a maxwell house coffee can can be reused as a burner for a 2qt pot.THe liquid alcohol for the chaffing dishes will make about 16 meals and the coffee can is great to support the pot.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweetpea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 14 2006 at 8:02pm
PATB ... youll have to plug into each individual tribe (usually just tourist information), unless you go to the State Health / Homeland security website and it will come up under public health service, or Indian Health Service ... this is probably the only site you will find referring to BF.
 
Otherwise, the site, nativetech ... that's mostly with the eastern/north eastern tribes ...
I tried to find out on different "blogs" if anybody was interest in BF .. none, they just kinda laughed it off ... Except with the Navajos, FEMA stepped in last fall ... one of their first duties was free flu shots - my guess was to see how many people they could get innoculated in a day - and, supposedly 30,000 native people were supposed to show up ... I guess this has to do with the fact that if BF became a reality, how fast would they be able to innoculate the population ... I don't think this was random, because I heard of other communities throughout the US that also did mass innoculations ...
I heard the announcement on "web" radio (native language) and nothing about the results ... It's very hard to get news out of any of the tribes, unless your right there in the middle of the daily-grind ...
Otherwise, for survival info ... it's alot of research ... libraries, web, museums, local historical sites ... they usually have quite a bit of information about the local tribes and how they lived and survived ...
 
"When an emergency arises, the time for preparation is past."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 5:41am

Johnray1, I'm not aganist groups, like I have said I might end up in one. But I don't think it is cut and dry for everyone, and some things need to be taken into account. I didn't realize but we do have a thread that was started in Jan. There is another poster that details some of my concerns much better than me.

http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=1029
 
What I write next is based on many years of personal experience.

Here is where most groups fail (in no particular order):

1) Unrealized expectations. Either these were not fully discussed, written down (important) and agreed upon, expectations are often unfilled, causing dissension, implosion and failure.

2) Lack of 'localness'. Forming a group from 'outsiders' is an almost certain recipe for disaster. The lack of local connections, customs, habits, expectations, and familiarity with all of the above, causes most 'formed groups' from people scattered far and wide to fail.

3) Lack of funding. A serious lack of planning, expectations and foresight, lack of initial startup costs, etc.

4) Habits and belief systems.  Smokers, dogs, religion, politics, work ethics, even scheduling habits.  Slackers, wannabe's, lazy and incompetent people should be avoided at all costs.

5) Relocation.  This is a gigantic "biggie" which encompasses ALL of the above.  Economic factors aside (which are monumental all by themselves) if resolved, still fails to account for the challenges and difficulties of relocation and the undue stress that this places upon ALL the participants.

6) Familiarity. The lack of communication, understanding, expectations, realizations, habits, hangups, hanger on's (extra family members, kids, troublesome friends, etc.) create extreme problems.

7) Impatience and lack of bonding. Most groups form in a hurry, based on a perceived need and almost always, a sense of urgency, which fails to address ALL of the above.  Such groups are destined for disaster and failure.

Groups are stronger then individuals, but you must carefully consider what you're asking for - and expecting.  And what people say - and what they do are two entirely different things.  Stress can produce the very worst and the very best in humans. You have to know that your fellow members won't crack under pressure.  Most will.

I strongly advise AGAINST forming a group from people that do not live close by that you cannot get to know personally, intimately and slowly.  Time is against you right now to do this, but I still hold this opinion based on years of personal experience.

If you are going to form a group, start with family.  Then close friends.  And close neighbors.  Beyond that, forget it. It probably won't work.

There are many different kinds of preparedness groups in the US, usually based around a common belief or perception.  However, close examination will often reveal that the same belief is not enough.  Nor is the same politics, religion or expectations.  The human dynamics come into play when you put people together and you quickly find out just how compatible you really are.

I could (and have) written an entire book on this subject, so I suggest you carefully consider what you're asking for.

Groups must hold common values, morals, beliefs and have clear lines of communication, leadership and problem resolution.  All that, plus all of the above.

Be careful.  I am not advising against it, but this is a Pandora's box and once opened, can be deadly.

Your as well off, if not better, sticking with family, close neighbors and friends.  These 'groups' already have the 'localness' requirement (essential), lines of communications, understanding of habits, belief systems, ethics and many other very important factors.  These groups are far from perfect (no group is), but they have a better foundation upon which to build then putting together relative strangers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 6:03am
Originally posted by Scott E Scott E wrote:

Bill: No government could take on the entire population but in a situation where 95% of the population demands protection by any means available I think that the government would act accordingly.

Note that the size of the poulation is largely irrelevant since the control mechanisms tend to be in direct proportion to the population concerned.
 
I still don't believe, they would do it. I think you might be adding both state and federal resources and making one. Now if they asked each state and they said Yes, then they could, the feds using state resources. I know the federal government would love you to be their PR man, their performance ratings would definitely improve from the 30 percent range.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 6:53am
I'm sure that you know both your country and your government far better than I do Bill. I'm not even sure that I understand my own at times.

I have no wish to be directly associated with any government but it must be accepted that they all make good listeners and anything that we say will be taken down and used when necessary. I am equally sure that the military will have updated their standing plans on how to deal with internal strife if called upon to do so. They don't mind doing a little bit of listening either.

I don't mind sowing a few seeds on stoney ground just as long as one or two land where I intended.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 7:16am
Scotty, My post was not a extreme point of view. It's just the way things are in the US. In a lot of cases most states are left to run their own state, and the tax payer wouldn't pay for two systems. If they want to monitor every american that posts just what is in the news. Then they better have a big note book and plenty of time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott E Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 10:07am
We do sometimes have problems trying to figure out how U.S. government actualy works but its served you all well and that's what really counts.

My general view is that whilst our governments are less truthful than we would like them to be they are also very much better at what they do than some people think. They don't get bogged down in pointless detail and they don't seem to mind how they get the answer as long as they get it. Its usually cheaper to steal an idea than it is to pay people to formulate one. I don't suppose they would really mind stealing some of ours, especially if they could get one of their own wizz kids to do it during their leisure time. One way or another I do think that they are listening. They, the U.K. government, backed away from their predicted death toll estimates in double quick time after it was met with howls of laughter on the various blog sites. So, incidentally, did our most trusted scientific spokesmen.

The Who certainly gazed at their feet for a while after the mysterious helicopter and bus incident so yes, I think that they are all listening. I also think that they are blogging!

This is the best indirect link to government policy that we will ever have. They'll take what suits them and reject what doesn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 15 2006 at 11:31am
I agree big brother is watching, and I bet their job can be overwhelming especially the way things are. But if they thought there was anything on this forum to worry about, then I would definitely worry.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2006 at 5:57pm
im a little worried? People have to eat,and would do anything to get food. Right?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 27 2006 at 9:13pm
Originally posted by Bill 100 Bill 100 wrote:

I think people from europe sometimes miss that we have two forms of government. Most countries in europe have one. That we are like 50 countries in one. I believe with La, Bush wanted the govenor to give up too much authority. She wanted help, but Bush wanted her to just turn it all over to him.
 

Wolf, I gave some tips on defending a town, as for groups being better. I leave all options on the table. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I believe there are too many factors, too many scenarios. The pool of people somebody might have to pick from could be in question. Only 1% are prepping, will they be knocking on the door every meal time. Are they reliable, it only takes one to fall asleep. I just can't single out one option. I try to put all options out for debate, to try to discuss the pluses and minuses. Then people can pick the one that they feel is the best for them. I could end up in a group, but I'm not ready to comit to one at this time. My neighbors think I'm mr doom and gloom, and I would not sleep well knowing my life depended on them. I think debating something is good, I believe you learn more.

 

I was wondering, have you thought about communications. Setting up a type of hot loop. Between your posts at the end of the street and a post where a backup can be alerted. It's just an idea that came to mind. Two way radios could work, if you had a way to charge them.


Bill, first sorry for taking so long to get back to you. The Holidays demanded a lot of time.

I'm not asking that any option be taken off the table. Yes there will be a lot of lone homes. But IF there is a major crime problem I believe a group of homes stand a better chance than the lone home.

I agree with you that we don't want martial law of any type.

As for a communications go we have 2 differant radios. First is the FRS / GMRS radios. 2nd is a commercial farm radio my neighbor uses to run his ranch. Most of us "hobby ranchers" use the FRS / GMRS radios. We have picked a freq. to go to if something happens. (storm, power outage etc.)
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2006 at 6:27am
Wolf, Like I have said, I'm not against a group. I could end up in more of a group than you have been talking about. Bugging out is an option for me. I have just started to do some home work on my bloodline. My great grandmother was Full Blooded Cherokee. The eastern tribe is close to my bug out area. Tracing this stuff is hard, I don't even know her name yet, but I will. I don't know if my ancestors where with those that walked the Trail of Tears, or was with those that stayed and helped form the eastern tribe. But I would have something to offer 13 years military, and something that is hard to come by, Loyalty. It is one of my options, I am digging into. It could pan out, then again it might not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2006 at 9:58am
Will the Military protect us in the event of gangs,and looting? I dont think so I feel just like me ,and you we would be at home with our families protecting them..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2006 at 11:31am
I would not depend on the military or police. We can't even get a military draft to go through, it keeps getting kicked out. They want an all volunteer force, but if SHTF I don't think there will be long lines of volunteers. They said the selective service would take 6 months. But I don't believe they said what would be done at the end of the 6 months. 40% of the police will be out taking care of family ect, then some will have the virus, and the demand will be **** you fill in the space. Then with katrina and the LA riots first responders became moving targets. Plus will the people in charge of the police and military have their act together, they didn't with katrina and the LA riots. If they are slow to respond like they have been in the past. I say, best of luck guys.
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Bill you have to do what is right for you and your family. There is NO right fix. Everybody has to evaluate there own situation and decide what is best for them.

The US military can not be used as law enforcement unless martial law is invoked. The National Guard CAN and will be used.

People you have to understand that in a major city the PD is only designed to deal with 1 or 2 percent of that population. When you have a "disruption" your LE resources get stretch, sometime to the breaking point. Remember those LEO's and their family are going though the same thing "disruption" that you are going though, and at a greater risk than most. Yes some will decided that their family is more important and stay home. Some will get sick, and not be able to work. This will only compound the problem.

Lets be realistic. The country will not erupt into senseless violence the moment the BF hits. Yes there is a criminal element (gangs) that will take advantage of any disruption. I don't think they will be going after individuals homes in the beginning, and maybe not at all.

The bottom line is that YOU have to be able protect you and your family. It's YOUR responsibility, not the government. I think firearms and training is the answer. But I don't care if you use a slingshot. But look at the situation realistically, and not like a Disney cartoon. The animals don't talk to you, and gravity and physics apply.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 28 2006 at 3:07pm
[QUOTE=wolfgang2000] Bill you have to do what is right for you and your family. There is NO right fix. Everybody has to evaluate there own situation and decide what is best for them.

 
Originally posted by Bill 100

 
Wolf, I gave some tips on defending a town, as for groups being better. I leave all options on the table. I'm not saying one is better than the other. I believe there are too many factors, too many scenarios. The pool of people somebody might have to pick from could be in question. Only 1% are prepping, will they be knocking on the door every meal time. Are they reliable, it only takes one to fall asleep. I just can't single out one option. I try to put all options out for debate, to try to discuss the pluses and minuses. Then people can pick the one that they feel is the best for them.
 
 
I guess this means we agree on that ?
 
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The US military can not be used as law enforcement unless martial law is invoked. The National Guard CAN and will be used.
 
Lets see, we have Afghanistan, Iraq, 40% out taking care of family, then 20% of the 60% left in the U.S. coming down with avian flu. That doesn't look like it leaves a lot to cover 50 states.
 
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To people in general that choose to be in groups. I just wanted to point out a few things. It could get to the point that you are constantly with the people you choose in your group. If it gets to a 24/7 type of thing, a lot of marriages have failed with less stress. You don't know these people, until you are with them all the time and under stress. You might think you know somebody, you have to take it further. I suggest making out a list of important things and check them off. So you will at least know part of what to expect, and if you have to compensate. If you have one that just can't stay awake at night. Make sure your group can pull a triger on a man. Target practice with images of a man, use a 22 if money is an issue. You need to know these people and their hadits. There is another saying You are as strong as your weakest link.
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Bill I think we agree on most issues in this thread. But why does it sound like we are arguing????       

I also agree that the NG is stretched VERY thin right now. But federal law prohibits federal troops from acting a law enforcement unless marital law is invoked. Actually fed troops can't even be use as support unless officially requested by that state.

If things get as bad as some predict will they follow the law???? Your guess is as good as mine. Personally I think martial law will open a Pandora's box that won't be easily closed.

I also agree that you should know who is in the "group". So now is the time to get to know the neighbors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 29 2006 at 10:17pm
Are you all so sure that you'll have enough food worth protecting? I bet 95% of you won't; me included.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnfin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2006 at 9:14am
Will the cops,and guard turn on us if they dont have food,and supplies?
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Originally posted by Annere Annere wrote:

Are you all so sure that you'll have enough food worth protecting? I bet 95% of you won't; me included.


If I have 1 slice of bread, it's worth protecting. As is my family.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 30 2006 at 9:54am
Originally posted by gnfin gnfin wrote:

Will the cops,and guard turn on us if they don't have food,and supplies?


I really don't think you will have to worry about that. The Guard is fairly well supplied. Your first responders are usually supplied by the Feds, (FEMA) till the power grid is back up. At least that is what happened during Hurricane Andrew.
    
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I look at it from a different perspective. People know I'm a Pediatrician and that a doctor's office has injectables. I've put the word out that the ONLY injection I have for pain is really just phenergan to make them sleepy and easier to work with.

We had a drug rehab/halfway house try to buy the daycare center next to us. I let them know that if any of them were pedaphiles there would be police involved,and then I told this half stoned guy that oh by the way ALL the women in my office carry concealed and will have not problem killing your ass to protect any and all of our children here.

They didn't buy the property and my office staff folks do have their permits...

Yeah I'll fight for what's mine and for the ones that need the help. Yeah I'll let people around me think I have 6 months supply when I really have 2 years. I'll feed and teach how to live using the wild cane and yucca. Cattail tubers instead of potatoes;cattail  pollen for meal ,the fall top pod has wax that can be gently melted off or use the entire top for tinder. The shaft is a wonderful spear or fletch for an arrow. Yeah country girl will survive,thinner but we'll do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2006 at 9:58am
Originally posted by dr d dr d wrote:

I look at it from a different perspective. People know I'm a Pediatrician and that a doctor's office has injectables. I've put the word out that the ONLY injection I have for pain is really just phenergan to make them sleepy and easier to work with.


We had a drug rehab/halfway house try to buy the daycare center next to us. I let them know that if any of them were pedaphiles there would be police involved,and then I told this half stoned guy that oh by the way ALL the women in my office carry concealed and will have not problem killing your ass to protect any and all of our children here.


They didn't buy the property and my office staff folks do have their permits...


Yeah I'll fight for what's mine and for the ones that need the help. Yeah I'll let people around me think I have 6 months supply when I really have 2 years. I'll feed and teach how to live using the wild cane and yucca. Cattail tubers instead of potatoes;cattail  pollen for meal ,the fall top pod has wax that can be gently melted off or use the entire top for tinder. The shaft is a wonderful spear or fletch for an arrow. Yeah country girl will survive,thinner but we'll do.


Great post dr d.   
    
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