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Could world situation start a Nuclear War - soon

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Medclinician2013 View Drop Down
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    Posted: September 20 2014 at 12:55pm
http://www.latimes.com/world/mexico-americas/la-fg-fighter-jets-intercept-russian-aircraft-20140919-story.html

ight Russian aircraft and refueling tankers were intercepted by U.S. and Canadian fighter jets off the coast of Alaska this week, officials said.

Maj. Beth Smith, a spokeswoman with the North American Aerospace Defense Command, known as NORAD, said the Russian craft were likely involved in "training exercises" when they were noticed on the night of Sept. 17 and the morning of Sept. 18.

The craft did not enter United States or Canadian airspace, but were located in an Air Defense Identification Zone that sits roughly 200 miles from the Alaskan coast, Smith said. Commercial flights can enter that airspace but must identify themselves.

Smith said NORAD has intercepted more than 50 Russian long-range bombers in the area in the last five years. The area has become a hotbed for shipping traffic and other craft due to the rapid melting of the polar ice cap, causing a rush to reach mineral deposits and newly created shipping lanes.

On Sept. 17, two F-22 fighter jets intercepted two Russian Bear long-range bombers, two Mig-31 fighter jets and two refueling tankers at about 7 p.m.

Less than seven hours later, two Canadian CF-18 fighter jets intercepted two bombers in the Beaufort Sea, Davis said.

Davis declined to say what an "intercept" entails, citing security protocols.


comment: It only takes one missile fired to start it.


Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 1:44pm
To back up your theorising, Med,  We had an air scramble yeaterday when Russian craft overflew our area.  Scary!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 4:34pm
This time, I think that Medclinician has finally posted something factual and worth worrying about. I too fear that Russia is "testing" US and Allied defenses in preparation of...what? Could this be but a prelude to eventual WWIII?

There certainly have been an unusual amount of Russian activity lately, from Ukraine to Estonia; the Russian air defense testings; the threats by Putin to start a nuclear war and Russian testing of nuclear weapons, etc.

I'm also concerned with China's aggressive actions this year. I really hope that China and Russia are not preparing for a major war against Allied/Western nations.

Perhaps this is the drumbeats of an impending war.

Here's the link to the story about Russian planes in the UK near Scotland: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2762225/British-fighter-jets-execute-flawless-scramble-intercept-two-Russian-Bear-aircraft-flying-international-airspace.html

Russian jets violate Swedish airspace: http://www.thelocal.se/20140918/russian-jets-violate-swedish-airspace-report

Canadian Navy Ship Buzzed by 3 Russian Jets: http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/canadian-navy-ship-bussed-russian-jets-25361313

Finland’s Fighter Jets on Alert as Russia Violates Airspace: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-28/finland-puts-fighter-planes-on-alert-as-russia-violates-airspace.html

Russian Bomber Jets Just Did Something That Should Put America On High Alert: http://www.westernjournalism.com/start-cold-war-ii/

More Russian jets near Baltic borders cause for concern, says army chief: http://www.baltictimes.com/news/articles/35565/

Armed Canadian fighter jets move to Russia’s doorstep: http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/08/29/armed_canadian_fighter_jets_move_to_russias_doorstep.html

Russia Deploys SU-30 Fighter Jets in Crimea: http://en.ria.ru/military_news/20140912/192878340/Russia-Deploys-SU-30-Fighter-Jets-in-Crimea.html

Pentagon says Chinese Jet Carried Out ‘Aggressive’ and ‘Dangerous’ Intercept of Navy Intelligence Jet: http://freebeacon.com/national-security/chinese-jet-threatened-u-s-intelligence-aircraft/

Japanese ASDF scrambles fighter jets against Russian bombers: http://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2014/08/22/national/politics-diplomacy/asdf-scrambles-fighter-jets-against-russian-bombers/

Dutch F16 flying again after Russian bomber intercept: http://www.nltimes.nl/2014/08/25/dutch-f16-flying-russian-bomber-intercept/

Lithuania Says Russia Seized Ship as Baltic Tensions Grow: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-09-19/lithuania-says-russia-seized-ship-as-baltic-tensions-grow.html

Taiwan Fighters Chase China Jets a Week After U.S. Incident: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-08-26/taiwan-says-chinese-military-aircraft-entered-island-s-airspace.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 4:57pm
Originally posted by Medclinician2013 Medclinician2013 wrote:

Med's post


Their bombers are not loaded when they play this game. Neither are ours, for just that possibility. Imagine if that plane went down over Alaska or something and we had a foreign Broken Arrow on our soil! That is an act of war. The Russians are nuts, that is true, but they're not suicidal.

And it's not like we aren't doing that too. The difference is that they send Bear bombers and we send B2's. We see their Bears, but they never even catch wind that our B2's just played the same game and flew over their country undetected. We have boomers in the ocean, they do too. This time around it's different because they're intentionally getting caught.

The Russians are playing onto Zer0's weakness. He is an abject coward who has royally *****ed up anything and everything his inept hands have touched. Some might argue that the only thing Zer0 has done right is be black, but no, he didn't even do that right either. He has single handedly set back race relations forty years.

This is nothing more than Putin getting up every morning with the express idea of making Zer0 to look even more amateurish, if that were remotely possible. The man has been an absolute catastrophe for the United States in every and all policy possibilities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 5:20pm
You don't know that the Russian jets aren't carrying bombs/missiles with their incursions. An example: http://www.westernjournalism.com/start-cold-war-ii/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 6:00pm
I', pretty sure that Turbo' is right here.  This is a p1$$1n% contest/game of chicken.  But lesser things have lead to war in the past.  Our TV is FULL of propaganda at the moment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 6:11pm
i Think its actually the other way around. 
The USA is pushing Russia hard wanting them to react.

Russia and China have to do nothing other than just keep their economies turning over and they become dominant. Especially China, by 2016 China's GDP surpasses the USA. 

The old alliances and power block are under pressure. USA still has military superiority and will have for at least the next 7 years. After that we are in uncharted waters...  Will the USA push their weight around militarily before then?


My prediction is we will have a very quick world war with in the next five years. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote pheasant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 6:18pm
I agree this is "political" they are testing us because we have weak leadership, and they are positioning themselves to control/annex as much real estate as they can before we get someone in office who will put their foot down....but it is still a serious and dangerous game of chicken.
The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote drumfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 7:08pm
To be deterred Russia or China would need to believe that our leader would retaliate immediately with overwhelming and determined vengeful resolve. I don't think our leader is capable of such an action. Why would putin?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 7:47pm
Originally posted by inthesticks inthesticks wrote:

You don't know that the Russian jets aren't carrying bombs/missiles with their incursions. An example: http://www.westernjournalism.com/start-cold-war-ii/




There's a big difference between flying practice and actually carrying nuclear weapons. In fact the bombers aren't carrying anything at all. Again, that would be colossally stupid. FYI: we fly our bombers near their airspace all the time too, doing cruise missile practice runs, are you dense enough to believe that those bombers have munitions on them? That would be almost as stupid as someone voting 0bama twice.

Without a conflict between the US and Russia getting nuclear, the United States could absolutely stomp the Russians in a matter of weeks. If an accident happened and even a conventional cruise missile hit somewhere in the United States, it is an act of war and we would put Putin right out of power and he knows it. At that point he might as well just launch everything and get the exchange over with because he is done for. A foreign Broken Arrow on our soil gives us massive intelligence on what they've got and capabilities. They don't want that as much as we don't want them with their hands on a B2.

This is nothing more than defense probing and practice.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 7:52pm
Originally posted by cobber cobber wrote:

i Think its actually the other way around. 
The USA is pushing Russia hard wanting them to react.

Russia and China have to do nothing other than just keep their economies turning over and they become dominant. Especially China, by 2016 China's GDP surpasses the USA. 

The old alliances and power block are under pressure. USA still has military superiority and will have for at least the next 7 years. After that we are in uncharted waters...  Will the USA push their weight around militarily before then?


My prediction is we will have a very quick world war with in the next five years. 


Unlikely. What does the US gain by initiating a nuclear exchange?

Any and all wars with either Russia or China will result in nuclear exchanges, period.

The Russian navy is a joke and the Chinese can't figure out how to get out of the brown water. Every US carrier group is the fourth largest Air Force in the world. In any fight, they'd be rendered militarily impotent in a matter of weeks and they know it and will resort to nukes. They have to.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 7:57pm
It seems to me that it is evolving towards that direction (Russian/US military confrontation).   Check out this video of Russians conducting a full-scale test of a ramjet anti-ship missile!  This thing scares the hell out of me (but it won't work against Ohio-class subs is my guess)


I'm also fairly certain that those Bear bombers are loaded.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 8:14pm
Turboguy and CRS,DrPH, what the Russians are doing now is checking to see where the holes are in our air defenses. We know about the ones that we catch and send interceptors up to meet them,but what we do NOT know is how times they have flown into our airspace and they did not get caught,but you can bet this has happened and they are making maps of these areas. They are doing the same thing in England and Europe.
With Satellites,there should be no holes,but there still will be and there will be many more if they take out just a few satellites when they start their attack. Johnray1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 8:15pm
The nukes are falling, the nukes are falling! They've been playing this same back and forth game of chicken since way before I was born. The nucular bombs that have already in fact fallen AND detonated are Ebola. Putin is a brinksmeister. Obama unfortunately, is not. But neither one are suicidal and both respect the fear of mutually assured destruction. One is scared. And the other is... glad.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 8:21pm
onefluover,They do not make this a public announcement very often,but the Russian believe this now and they have always believed that a Nuclear war was win able.Then you add in a President like we have and all he has to do is hesitate a few seconds or a couple of minutes and the Russians have the advantage.Our President will hesitate and Putin knows this.John
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 8:37pm
JR, I understand. But if the USA is attacked with nukes, even a timid, fearful Obama will respond with nukes. And in any case, if we are attacked in such a way and Obama wavers he'll immediately be arrested by the Generals and they will complete the command. The Russians may think they can win but neither can or will in such a war. The whole world can only loose. They BOTH know this.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote newbie1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 9:08pm
Originally posted by onefluover onefluover wrote:

JR, I understand. But if the USA is attacked with nukes, even a timid, fearful Obama will respond with nukes. And in any case, if we are attacked in such a way and Obama wavers he'll immediately be arrested by the Generals and they will complete the command. The Russians may think they can win but neither can or will in such a war. The whole world can only loose. They BOTH know this.


Or they send up a nice little warhead (or 3!) with a lil nuke up high in the sky and emp wipes out all... then they sit back 10 mos-yr while ppl die of illness, starvation, exposure - killing each other for stockpiles etc etc etc, then they come in and take a little populated land mass with no nuclear contamination!
That's what I'd do, but that's just me!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote drumfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 9:10pm
The big o has no stones. He has repeatedly failed to follow advice of military professionals and common sence. He has shown that he will dither and be slow to act. Why would Putin fail to take his shot at a week opponent. Putin likes being in charge, is ambitious, and believes in a fight you hit first and hard.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:30pm
http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/09/14/washingtons-war-russia-paul-craig-roberts-2/

The real question is the purpose of the sanctions. My conclusion is that the purpose of the sanctions is to break up and undermine Europe’s economic and political relations with Russia. When international relations are intentionally undermined, war can be the result. Washington will continue to push sanctions against Russia until Russia shows Europe that there is a heavy cost of serving as Washington’s tool.

Russia’s Atlantic Integrationists share the Brzezinski and Wolfowitz doctrines with Washington. These doctrines are the basis for US foreign policy. The doctrines define the goal of US foreign policy in terms of preventing the rise of other countries, such as Russia and China, that could limit Washington’s hegemony.

Russia, thinking the Cold War ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union, opened herself to the West. Russian governments trusted the West, and as a result of Russia’s gullibility, the West was able to purchase numerous allies among the Russian elites. Depending on the alignment of the media, these compromised elites are capable of assassinating Putin and attempting a coup.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:32pm
According to Paul Craig Roberts there is a powerstrugle in the Kremlin between those who want Russia to become a superpower again and those who want to deal with the west (and thereby give up the desire to become a main player). 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 12:13am
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-09-20/why-china-russia-china-are-now-enemy 

The US/EU increase debts, Russia and China increase gold. The US-petro-dollar will loose much of its credit when international energy-deals are done in other currencies. Both the €, $ and pound, yen, are facing difficulties. 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 12:19am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfowitz_Doctrine  basicly, the US was #1, is #1 and will remain #1 wathever the costs. NATO has asociated members like Georgia and Azerbedjan-former SU-states. Ukrain is also more or less becoming a "second class NATO member" you can even argue that Pakistan-needed for logistics in the Afghan war, is a sort of NATO-member. (There are claims that Saudi Arabia has nuclear weapons in Pakistan for war with Iran). 

The Arab gulfstates are more extreme in Islam than Iran, they do support international terrorism. They might finance Muslim-extremists from Mali to western China and the Caucasus-southern Russia. Yet Saudi Arabia (no alcohol, no women driving cars) and its neighbours remain "western friends". 

The fight is for oil and gas and there are no "good guys" in this story. 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 12:19am
Putin is testing to see if Obama has ANY balls at all. What Putin missed is that our Military has balls. Obama is just passing through our Generals have been there for many years.

Putin will find out we will not play chicken we will pay to protect and win!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 12:30am
A nuclear war has no winners ! 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 7:37am
You are an apologist. You are no better than the apologists for the NAZI atrocities from WWII.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 9:31am
Brzezinski   The "B" word
There's a name for the folks who thinks the yanks are in it for "just" reasons. 
He's an interesting character. He's probably the most influential person of our time and pretty much unknown by the general public.

Neither side is innocent. They both play the game.

The recent move of the USA taking power in Ukraine is a totally awesome move and really sends a message to Russia. Basically they are saying we don't like you anymore. You are *****ing with our world dominance plans. Stop it. 

There is so much tie into the most recent moves. too much to elaborate on here and now. There is just so much to geopolitics. Massive areas which never make it to mainstream. just digging a little will uncover a lot. 

Try googling something like Ukraine coup or Ukraine neo nazis. There's some interesting vids kicking around with Victoria Nuland

Most of us are just pawns in a very big game




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote waterboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 10:18am

F-22 fighters intercept Russian military planes 55 miles off Alaska

< style="WIDTH: 100%; HEIGHT: 100%" border=0 ="http://video.foxnews.com/static/p/video/app///vod.?video_id=3796481075001&_fx=y&_xcf=foxnews" Border=0 scrolling=no jQuery111006015219347360046="155">
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Russian military planes intercepted 55 miles off Alaska

Two U.S. F-22 fighter jets intercepted six Russian military airplanes that were flying near Alaska, military officials said Friday.

Lt. Col. Michael Jazdyk, a spokesman for the North American Aerospace Defense Command, or NORAD, said the jets intercepted the planes about 55 nautical miles from the Alaskan coast at about 7 p.m. Pacific time Wednesday.

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Tensions are high between the United States and Russia as the two countries are increasingly at odds over Ukraine, where Russian-backed insurgents have been fighting for control of parts of the country.

The Russian planes were identified as two IL-78 refueling tankers, two Mig-31 fighter jets and two Bear long-range bombers. They looped south and returned to their base in Russia after the U.S. jets were scrambled.

At about 1:30 a.m. Thursday, two Canadian CF-18 fighter jets intercepted two of the long-range Russian Bear bombers about 40 nautical miles off the Canadian coastline in the Beaufort Sea.

In both cases, the Russian planes entered the Air Defense Identification Zone, which extends about 200 miles from the coastline. They did not enter sovereign airspace of the United States or Canada.

Jazdyk said the fighter jets were scrambled “basically to let those aircraft know that we see them, and in case of a threat, to let them know we are there to protect our sovereign airspace.”

In the past five years, jets under NORAD’s command have intercepted more than 50 Russian bombers approaching North American airspace.

NORAD is a binational American and Canadian command responsible for air defense in North America.

Reuters and The Associated Press contributed to this report.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2014 at 11:09am
Ah. Z Brzezinski. Conjures up images of peanuts.... And a few other things..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 3:19am
Originally posted by inthesticks inthesticks wrote:

You are an apologist. You are no better than the apologists for the NAZI atrocities from WWII.

I find your reaction insulting ! Do you not have arguments to discuss with ? 

In my opinion there are several countries playing with fire, including the US. Is that a reason for you "inthesticks" to almost call me a nazi ? Is that the way this forum can accept discussions ? I want your apoligies !

On topic; as long as there are nuclear weapons there is a chance for nuclear war. Distrust can cause an accidental start of such a war.  I do not hear from western planes, navy ships in Chinese or Russian waters. NATO-excercises in the Black Sea still were in international waters, NATO-planes bombing separatists in Eastern Ukraine stayed out of Russian air space. 

There is a difference between Russian/Chinese (or for that matter Iranian) ships/planes in international waters/airspace and in area's that countries consider national air/water-ways. There was a Russian navy squadron in the north sea not that long ago. They were of course being monitored by UK and Dutch navy/airforce. Provocations make the international situation worse. 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillobyBrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 6:06am
I gather by the conversations that have transpired, that you have all watched "The Day After Tomorrow" just a few too many times.  Without risking getting my arse kicked by a high ranking American general, with a very german-sounding name, I think you would be very surprised, and so would Mr Putin at how quickly the American forces would retaliate to any attempt at a nuclear strike against America.  If president Obama was caught with his pants down and hesitated, I assure you that both Britain and France would be throwing so much $h1t in Russia's direction they would think they had fallen down their own dunny.  Furthermore unless policy has changed considerably, India would not hesitate to knock the c7*p out of China if they were seen helping Russia.

Now a few facts:  From the 60s when I was serving in the RAF, our lightening jets, the best and only true interceptor in the world at that time, frequently chased off slow Russian prop driven bombers, bears, bisons, etc. and, surprise upon surprise, the missiles tucked under the wings, just behind the nose of the lightenings, were real.  I assure you, the RAF does not f**k about when our friends are attacked. 

The cold war did not realy end.  It is now back in full force.

Finally, for the benefit of all those of you that were not born in the second world war, calling a person a Nazi on this forum is not acceptable.  Two of my uncles, who were personal friends of Ben-Gurion and discussed the setting-up of the state of Israel with him in Paris after the war, also spent time in Nazi Germany's prisoner of war camps.  So unless you realy understand the term Nazi, please do not insinuate that Dutch Josh is one. 

Ok inthesticks, that said estimated losses from MAD nuke war = 90% of human race.  That is still more of us than were around after the last ice-age.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 6:14am
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 7:48am
WillobyBrat, thank you for making clear that the term "nazi"for a forum member on this forum always is misplaced. Difference of opinions make a forum work. Nobody has a patent on the total truth ! Agreement to disagree is often the best one can get in contacts, but one does not always have to agree with one another. 

Starting a nuclear war is a decision no (sane) political leader wants to make. To many countries have that kind of weapons, North Korea, in my opinion has a leader that I consider not that sane. On the other side being human all humans take sometimes bad decisions, to fast based on the wrong information. For that matter I think the world would be safer without nuclear weapons. 


We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 8:04am
That's a tough call for me. Giving up our nukes, and likewise they theirs, will never happen. Perhaps if Einstein had not made it out of Germany but then he wasn't the only person able to figure out how to do it so they were coming anyways. But Germany of course would of gotten them first. But one thing is for certain to me. If nukes were an impossiblity, we would be talking about the prospects of World War 5 by now in a much differant looking world.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 8:24am
My comments stand, and I'll make no apologies for them. Dutch Josh has always criticized the US and everything the US does (or doesn't do). Well...this is not Europe, where his type of comments are welcomed and accepting.

If everyone thought the same as him during WWII, then all the Jews would have been exterminated and Europe might well be under NAZI rule today. Actually, Dutch Josh should change his name to French Josh.

I WILL apologize for calling Dutch Josh an apologist. Actually, he is an appeaser (to yield or concede to the belligerent demands of (a nation, group, person, etc.) in a conciliatory effort, sometimes at the expense of justice or other principles).
I'm INTHESTICKS and I approved this message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 22 2014 at 9:32am
Political arguments tend to get heated around here since forum members are scattered throughout the world.   There are a few misunderstandings taking place with this, but please try to work together and try not to insult each other. 

Onward...

 
https://www.facebook.com/Avianflutalk
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 2:57am
@inthesticks, you keep insulting me instead of giving arguments in a discussion. The reason why I think discussing the global situation is that pandemics are often spread by wars. The US is a major player in the international scene. We should be able to agree on that. 

I called Putin (5% owner Gazprom) an "elected dictator". Assad, Kadaffi, Saddam Hussein are/were cruel dictators. It would be ideal when those dictators were replaced by democracies. I am not on this forum to be anti-American or to protest against NATO. I often refer to (mostly US) sources for what I put on this forum. If you do not like what I write please ignore it ! 

My impression was that avianflutalk.com had the ambition to be a worldwide forum on healthissues, the way pandemics spread, etc. I would welcome more reactions from outside the western world. 

I do not want to hurt your feelings or insult you. 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 4:01am
@onefluover, you are right in mentioning Einstein. He (with some others) wrote the letter to Roosevelt that started the Manhattan project. The goal was to build a nuclear bomb to drop on Germany. If the bomb was available in the summer of 1944 history would look different. Germany was working on both nuclear weapons and rockets for intercontinental use. The V4 would be used against the US east coast but fortunately the development of those weapons did take that much time they were never completed.

Since W.W.-2 the world was close to a nuclear war lots of times, nuclear weapons did not stop wars. The Korean War, Cuban crisis, Berlin crisis, 1973 Middle East war (the soviet union unloaded nuclear missiles in Alexandria to stop Israel when they would become a treath to Caïro) are only a few examples. But history can not be made undone. 
We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 4:19am


State Maps and Information for
Nuclear Survival


http://www.ki4u.com/webpal/d_resources/list.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 6:28am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

@onefluover, you are right in mentioning Einstein. He (with some others) wrote the letter to Roosevelt that started the Manhattan project. The goal was to build a nuclear bomb to drop on Germany. If the bomb was available in the summer of 1944 history would look different. Germany was working on both nuclear weapons and rockets for intercontinental use. The V4 would be used against the US east coast but fortunately the development of those weapons did take that much time they were never completed.

Since W.W.-2 the world was close to a nuclear war lots of times, nuclear weapons did not stop wars. The Korean War, Cuban crisis, Berlin crisis, 1973 Middle East war (the soviet union unloaded nuclear missiles in Alexandria to stop Israel when they would become a treath to Caïro) are only a few examples. But history can not be made undone. 


I agree with that but my point is nuclear weapons have stopped nuclear world wars.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 6:30am
For now...
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote newbie1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 7:11am
Originally posted by onefluover onefluover wrote:

For now...


I remember watching an Oprah show when I was a teenager (MANY yrs ago) and there was a war/weapons expert as guest. Oprah made a comment to the effect of 'oh, but no one would ever start a nuclear war/no one would ever actually push the button'... I remember the expression on the mans face and he looked at her and replied "man kind has never developed a weapon they haven't used. From the caveman and his club to the A-bomb, we've used it all, why would nuclear be any different?".

I had nightmares for weeks after that - drew out bomb shelters etc.   Even as a kid I knew - the man was right. Scared the bejezeezes out of me then & still does!

Oprah back about the time of the swine flu outbreak (just previous I think) had a show talking about worst case scenarios. Plague was one of them, and when she commented to the effect that 'oh we'd all be fine here as such good infrastructure etc', the expert looked at her = explained about 'on demand supplies' ships carrying chemicals for water treatment docking ever 24-48 hrs etc... the look on her face as it dawned on her just how bad things would get in a city like New York without water/power - wow.   This is how I feel now about ebola all the govt/msm etc just keeps saying 'no big deal, it won't get here, if it does - we're fine' I'm hoping they're right but my guts not so sure.

I wish I could find those two episodes now to rewatch!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2014 at 7:17am
I'd love to see the pandemic episode.

My gut is starting to tie in knots waiting for the CDC press release.
13 more minutes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2014 at 1:25am
http://www.voltairenet.org/article185860.html 

Meanwhile, the Russian Su-24 that buzzed the USS Donald Cook carried neither bombs nor missiles but only a basket mounted under the fuselage, which, according to the Russian newspaper Rossiyskaya Gazeta [2], contained a Russian electronic warfare device called Khibiny.

As the Russian jet approached the US vessel, the electronic device disabled all radars, control circuits, systems, information transmission, etc. on board the US destroyer. In other words, the all-powerful Aegis system, now hooked up - or about to be - with the defense systems installed on NATO’s most modern ships was shut down, as turning off the TV set with the remote control.

The Russian Su-24 then simulated a missile attack against the USS Donald Cook, which was left literally deaf and blind. As if carrying out a training exercise, the Russian aircraft - unarmed - repeated the same maneuver 12 times before flying away.

After that, the 4th generation destroyer immediately set sail towards a port in Romania.

Since that incident, which the Atlanticist media have carefully covered up despite the widespread reactions sparked among defense industry experts, no US ship has ever approached Russian territorial waters again.

According to some specialized media, 27 sailors from theUSS Donald Cook requested to be relieved from active service.

Vladimir Balybine - director of the research center on electronic warfare and the evaluation of so-called "visibility reduction" techniques attached to the Russian Air Force Academy - made the following comment:

"The more a radio-electronic system is complex, the easier it is to disable it through the use of electronic warfare."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2014 at 2:56am
If the voltairenet-story is real the basics of western defense might be not working. There have been stories about electronic warfare, stuxnet etc. but mostly that are things you do not see. The picture I have of Russian technologie is that they manage in a certain almost primitive way to do better. In spacetravel they did not choose a space-shuttle but stayed with rockets. Avoiding technology themselves but working on "anti-technology" might have been a strategie. 

Since this forum handles infectious diseases I keep reminding that war always was a good way to spread illness. The Spanish flu did cost more lives than the world war earlier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2014 at 4:43am
It also could explain why Russia is that active on sea and in the air; all the information they want they get free from "our" radars and technology ! Of course the reason behind the war"games" is oil and gas http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-11-15/shale-oil-expensive-over-hyped-short-lived
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