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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic

Cytokine Storm

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    Posted: January 18 2018 at 7:05am
Ok guys remind me how to stop a cytokine storm! As I hear the stories of people dying of this H3N2 Flu it looks to me that this is what is killing them.

Do we have ways to stop a cytokine storm...I will go get what ever is needed and get it to my son. I worry about my only child getting this and dying!
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Ok so I went back in a search of AFT and I asked this question several years ago and got no answers then.

I did a little research last night and some are saying Curcumin (95%) curcumin would stop a cytokine storm.

Any one out there have any information on how to treat a cytokine storm?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2018 at 5:40pm
I do not think there is much by way of efective treatment.  That is why a storm is so dangerous.

Anything which lessens the immune response would be helpful, steroids, NSAIDS, arthritis drugs, maybe even some extreme stuff like methotrexate and other cancer drugs;  immunosupressants offer some hope, but as a cytokine storm is a response to severe infection, all approaches would lessen the body's ability to fight the underlying cause of the storm.  All of that could be counterproductive to a fatal degree.

It would be possible, in the strictly controlled intensive care settings of a hospital, to turn down by a very, very small degree, the extremes of a cytokine storm, but such delicate juggling is risky even in the hands of the experts.  To the rest of us it would be completely impossible.

So, currently, the approach is to let such storms run their course, whilst supporting the rest of the body for the duration and, if the patient survives, afterwards during convalesence.

Here is an article or two concerning the current approaches and avenues of research:
https://www.americanlaboratory.com/914-Application-Notes/340464-An-Effective-Treatment-Strategy-for-Cytokine-Storm-in-Severe-Influenza/ 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4711683/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5224679/ 

Sorry I could not be of more help.  There are just no sensible treatments out there.  Some of the loony fringe of medicine suggest antioxidant therapy.  It might tip the balance, but only if things were on a knife edge after allopathic treatments.  Overall, the effect of normal doses of antioxidants would be far too mild to make much difference in such a grave and acute condition.  (They work better on chronic ones.)

Abnormally high doses of antioxidants have side effects.  So, they would be more likely to ensure fatality in such cases.



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Thanks Techno! I believe that some of these younger people who died so quickly like the 40 something mother, the 12 yr. old and others may have died form a Cytokine Storm. We the public will never get this information including the poor families.

This could turn into a really hugely deadly flu year! Like it's not already!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2018 at 6:45pm
You are absolutely right, Flumom.  As far as I can tell, when a flu turns up, for which our species is unprepared, it is usually a cytokine storm which kills the young and otherwise healthy.  That is what killed all the young adults in the 1918 Spanish Flu pandemic.  Us older souls survived, to everyone's surprise, because the cytokine storm potential drops, along with the overall immune system, as we age.

I doubt that is the case at present.  Despite the headlines, hype and hysteria, this flu is neither a big killer, nor a novel strain for which we are unprepared immunologically.  Its close cousins have been harassing us for decades.  As a result, although it is widespread, nasty, debilitating and overloading our medical facilities, it is not killing very many more than most other seasonal flu strains.  I suspect the few deathe there have been are unvaccinated, unprepared people with other health conditions; tragic but not out of the ordinary.

I do not think there is a deliberate cover-up either.  Among health professionals, the knowledge that it is the overraction of the immune system which kills the young and healthy is widespread, almost total.  Sadly, there is an automatic belief among "the powers that be" that the rest of us are too stupid or poorly educated to understand such things, so they just "pat our collective heads" and tell us everything will be fine.  GRRR!!! Angry
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Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Ok so I went back in a search of AFT and I asked this question several years ago and got no answers then.

I did a little research last night and some are saying Curcumin (95%) curcumin would stop a cytokine storm.

Any one out there have any information on how to treat a cytokine storm?

I'm sorry, FluMom, there is no practical treatment to counteract a cytokine storm.  This is one of the most overwhelming reactions that the human body can encounter.   This is why public health scientists such as myself are so vigilant for emerging, novel pathogens. 

When measles was introduced to the Hawaiian Islands, the native population had no immunologic history of exposure to this new virus....the resulting cytokine storm reactions were decimating to the young adults, since they had the strongest immune systems.  

This is interesting history: 


The imported epidemics of infections including measles diminished Hawaii's population from approximately 300,000 at Captain Cook's arrival in 1778 to 135,000 in 1820 and 53,900 in 1876. The measles deaths of the king and queen in London in 1824, likely acquired visiting a large children's home, was a harbinger of the devastating impact of measles upon Hawaiians 24 years later with its first arrival to the Sandwich (Hawaiian) Islands.
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Thanks, Doc! I am really afraid of a cytokine storm because of my mid 20's son. I know it affects young strong people. I am afraid of this years flu for me because I get pneumonia so easily.

Thanks guys! We have our flu shots for all the good that will do us...lol!
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Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Thanks, Doc! I am really afraid of a cytokine storm because of my mid 20's son. I know it affects young strong people. I am afraid of this years flu for me because I get pneumonia so easily.

Thanks guys! We have our flu shots for all the good that will do us...lol!

Glad to help!  Don't believe the media, get the seasonal flu shot if you haven't already.  It's better than nothing!  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2018 at 9:53pm
I think some of the young, stronger people are also effected by secondary infections which end up shutting down organs! From what I've read the sign of a cytokine storm is that the patient seems to be getting better as the cytokines kick in but then they don't shut down and attack the patient as well as the virus! These young people seem to get it bad and it just hangs on for days! One of our neighbors(40 something) recently got sick and after a week called his doctor! The Dr. was so busy he couldn't get in for three days and the day of his appointment his nephew found him collapsed in the living room! He didn't make it to the ER!
   
FluMom - I have two sons, two daughter in laws and a grandson! I worry about them all the time! It wasn't that long ago, if they were sick, i could just pick them up and take them to the doctors office! I don't know about your son but when I breach the subject of pandemics they look at me like I'm crazy! The only reason they kept the "BOB's" I made up for them is they went over a month without electricity during our last bad ice storm. Like everything else about being a parent you can only hope and pray they absorb some of what you say! If I prayed I would but I don't so I wish you and your son well! Good luck!
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Thanks arirish, I agree with you on people not going to the doctor. My son is really good about going because he knows he will have hell to pay if he does not go...LOL! My son knows all the possibilities of TSHTF and he has his very well stocked BOB in his apartment. He is a believer, just not true prepper since he is in school. I made his BOB so that he is protected for at least a week, the time it would take him to get home if he had to walk.

He did not bring his BOB when he came home Christmas and going back to school he got into a really bad snow blizzard. He though he was not going to make it. Well he now knows in the fall, winter, spring he brings his BOB with him.

A little scare is a good thing if you learn.
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FluMom said - "A little scare is a good thing if you learn."

Ain't it the truth! I'm sure, to our kids, as we get older we get smarter just like our parents did!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 22 2018 at 9:35pm
Here’s how the flu kills some people so quickly

A 10-year-old Connecticut boy died of flu. So did a 21-year-old bodybuilder, and 4-year-old Jonah Reiben of Dayton, Ohio.

These are not the usual sick and elderly people who die from influenza. But every year, flu carries away perfectly healthy young adults and children, and tens of thousands of people over 65.

How does flu kill, and why does it sometimes kill so quickly?

Doctors who study the body’s immune response say there are three main reasons: co-infection with another germ, usually bacteria such as strep; aggravation of existing conditions such as heart disease and asthma; and a so-called cytokine storm, marked by an overwhelming immune system response to infection.

Sometimes this can happen very fast. During the 1918 “Spanish flu” pandemic that killed up to 50 million people a century ago, many people were reported to have died within hours of showing their first symptoms.

Researchers who have gone back and re-examined tissue samples, and read reports from the time, believe most deaths were caused by co-infection with another germ. But many of the healthy young men and women who died quickly of flu that year more likely succumbed to cytokine storms.

The human immune system has a load of weapons to throw out against infections, including cytokines produced by a variety of immune system cells.

“Those substances work to stop the virus from spreading,” said Dr. Amesh Adalja, an infectious disease specialist and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security.

They cause the typical “flu-like symptoms” that bring misery from flu and other infections.

“The muscle aches, the fever — all of that is the result of the immune system responding to the virus,” Adalja said. That’s why so many diseases cause similar symptoms: it’s the body’s response, not the particular invader, that’s to blame.

But different people have differently composed immune systems.

“In certain individuals there can be a very pronounced immune response that can result in a lot of damage to the cells in your body including the cells in the respiratory tract," Adalja said.

When a virus is new, like the 1918 strain of H1N1 and the 2009 H1N1 “swine flu”, it usually kills far more people. One theory is that the immune system can become overwhelmed by the never-before-seen invader and sends so many troops to fight it that perfectly healthy tissue in the lungs and other organs gets killed, too.

People who die from “bird flu” viruses, such as H5N1 or H7N9, also seem to die via an over-the-top immune response.

A 10-year-old Connecticut boy died of flu. So did a 21-year-old bodybuilder, and 4-year-old Jonah Reiben of Dayton, Ohio.

These are not the usual sick and elderly people who die from influenza. But every year, flu carries away perfectly healthy young adults and children, and tens of thousands of people over 65.
Influenza virus CDC

How does flu kill, and why does it sometimes kill so quickly?

Doctors who study the body’s immune response say there are three main reasons: co-infection with another germ, usually bacteria such as strep; aggravation of existing conditions such as heart disease and asthma; and a so-called cytokine storm, marked by an overwhelming immune system response to infection.


Sometimes this can happen very fast. During the 1918 “Spanish flu” pandemic that killed up to 50 million people a century ago, many people were reported to have died within hours of showing their first symptoms.

Researchers who have gone back and re-examined tissue samples, and read reports from the time, believe most deaths were caused by co-infection with another germ. But many of the healthy young men and women who died quickly of flu that year more likely succumbed to cytokine storms.
[Why the flu can kill a healthy person so quickly]
Why the flu can kill a healthy person so quickly 1:35

The human immune system has a load of weapons to throw out against infections, including cytokines produced by a variety of immune system cells.

“Those substances work to stop the virus from spreading,” said Dr. Amesh Adalja, an infectious disease specialist and senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins University Center for Health Security.


They cause the typical “flu-like symptoms” that bring misery from flu and other infections.

“The muscle aches, the fever — all of that is the result of the immune system responding to the virus,” Adalja said. That’s why so many diseases cause similar symptoms: it’s the body’s response, not the particular invader, that’s to blame.

But different people have differently composed immune systems.

“In certain individuals there can be a very pronounced immune response that can result in a lot of damage to the cells in your body including the cells in the respiratory tract," Adalja said.

When a virus is new, like the 1918 strain of H1N1 and the 2009 H1N1 “swine flu”, it usually kills far more people. One theory is that the immune system can become overwhelmed by the never-before-seen invader and sends so many troops to fight it that perfectly healthy tissue in the lungs and other organs gets killed, too.

People who die from “bird flu” viruses, such as H5N1 or H7N9, also seem to die via an over-the-top immune response.

And these newer viruses also tend to kill younger people, perhaps because the older population may have been exposed to a distant relative of the virus in the past. The H1N1 flu virus killed 282 U.S. children in 2009-2010, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says. It may have infected 61 million people.

Now it’s just part of the annual flu mix and while it is circulating and killing some people this year, it’s the H3N2 strain that is suspected of causing most problems this time around.

One experiment showed that certain “new” genes in these never-before-seen viruses help them thrive deep in the lungs, which can cause pneumonia and might provoke an overwhelming immune response.

While a few people seem to die within hours or days, flu can cause lingering sickness in others. Then they become susceptible to other infections, such as streptococcal or staphylococcal bacterial infections.

These secondary infections can damage organs, cause pneumonia or get into the bloodstream, causing another kind of immune system overreaction called sepsis.

So far this season, flu has killed 20 children. Last season, 110 children died from influenza in the U.S.

The CDC doesn’t precisely count adult flu deaths, in no small part because it just kills so many. Every year, flu kills 12,000 to 56,000 people and sends as many as 700,000 to the hospital.

CDC estimates flu deaths by looking at how many more people than usual died of flu and pneumonia, but even those calculations miss people who may have died from flu complications, such as a heart attack set off by a bout of flu.

For patients with asthma or other lung conditions, flu is just one more problem for the lungs to cope with.

“They are already having breathing difficulties. It can put them into a spiral very quickly where their breathing gets compromised,” Adalja said.

Patients with diabetes already have a damaged immune response, so they also are more susceptible to flu.

And pregnant women have a double risk. “Pregnant women are in a state of immunosuppression because the immune system is trying not to reject the fetus,” said Adalja. So the virus can get further, faster in their bodies.

Plus their lungs are compressed by the fetus, so they have less breathing capacity. Humans need a certain level of oxygen and if blood oxygen levels fall too far, they enter a state called hypoxia. Hypoxia can cause organ damage within minutes.

That’s why bluish skin or difficulty breathing is an emergency that requires immediate medical care.

The best defense against flu, the CDC, FDA, pediatricians and other health experts agree, is a flu vaccine. Just about everyone over the age of 6 months should get one and it's still not to late to do it.

And flu is spread by droplets that can linger on surfaces such as countertops, which is why hand-washing is so important. It also spreads via sneezing and coughing and, perhaps, may float in the air on tiny droplets emitted by simple breathing.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/here-s-how-flu-virus-kills-some-people-so-quickly-n839936
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