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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic.

Do you believe in mandatory vaccination? Why?

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Jen147 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jen147 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 8:07am
You are no more likely to get GBS if you get a vaccine that you would be of getting GBS by the flu itself.  Infections make up the majority of cases of GBS.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1NiceGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 30 2013 at 2:58pm
I think the best source on vaccines is Dr. Russel Blaylock a very esteemed neurosurgeon.
In an interview he stated:

Dr. Blaylock: Well, it's a violation of the Nuremberg medical code, for one, you know this was to protect the public against being experimental animals for governments or vaccine companies. So suddenly we have this violation of Nuremberg protection, saying that you should be forced into a vaccine trial. And if your health is destroyed during testing of this experimental vaccine, then that's just the price you pay for living in this society. Well that's not certainly consistent with the founding of this republic, that people are forcibly put into experimental trials.


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Originally posted by 1NiceGuy 1NiceGuy wrote:

I think the best source on vaccines is Dr. Russel Blaylock a very esteemed neurosurgeon.
In an interview he stated:

Dr. Blaylock: Well, it's a violation of the Nuremberg medical code, for one, you know this was to protect the public against being experimental animals for governments or vaccine companies. So suddenly we have this violation of Nuremberg protection, saying that you should be forced into a vaccine trial. And if your health is destroyed during testing of this experimental vaccine, then that's just the price you pay for living in this society. Well that's not certainly consistent with the founding of this republic, that people are forcibly put into experimental trials.


I understand and like questions that evoke serious conversation. This is one of those. As I stated before, I am a believer in vaccinations and to me the lack of smallpox, polio, and diptheria are all the proof I need. I do not believe in mandatory anything and this includes vaccinations. Having said this, is anyone aware of an instance where vaccination was forced in the US? I know about the school children needing vaccinations or they cannot attend, but as parents we have the option to not send them to that school. Beyond that instance, I do not know of any time it was called mandatory for the general public to get any vaccine. It certainly is not beyond the realm of possibility when you see how the government erodes our freedoms year after year, but I do not recall this happening yet.
"Learning is not compulsory... neither is survival." - W. Edwards Deming
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Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

Excuse me, but I thought this was a discussion forum.  How can you censure us because you don't believe in the things that we do?  If you think that vaccinations are great and wonderful then that's you're opinion which you're fully entitled to.  You don't need to follow this particular blog.  But, you have no right to tell us not to write about this anymore just because you've heard it already and don't agree!
 
I didn't see what you're talking about. She didn't delete any of your posts, and thus didn't censor you in the least.
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

How can you moderate anything in a fair and unbiased way?  The wonderful thing about this world is that we have the right to read what we want to.  If you don't like what we've written, then you don't have to read it!
 
Ahhhh but that's the beauty! The First Amendment goes both ways. If I don't like what you say, and I read it anyway, I can say anything I want about your argument and poke as many holes in your logic as I want. Free Speech is a a double edged sword. Get used to it, especially if you're going to be the first to bring it up.
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

If you want to censure someone, then censure those people who like to laugh and ridicule others for having different points of view.  There has been a lot of nastiness on this forum and I have gotten quite sick of the name calling and sarcasm.  Censure THAT!
 
Oh, so now we can't laugh faulty arguments not based in reality? I thought you were all about free speech? See Elver, you've always been like this, it's just that nobody brings it up: You think that your arguments are above reproach and get all butthurt and indignant whenever someone pokes holes in your positions. I've seen you howl for Mahshadin's eviction from this forum no fewer than twenty times because he had a little fun with your ideas and positions.
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

Some of us on this particular blog have done extensive research on vaccines and post here in an attempt to enlighten others.  You don't have to agree by any means.  People should have information on both sides of a subject and if this subject comes up again, I will be there to post on it.
 
Oh? Are you a medical professional? Do you have a degree in epidemiology? Virology? Published papers of dangers of vaccination? I regularly converse with the Director of Cytopathology of a large military hospital. Read that again: I have the opportunity to regularly talk with a Pathologist. He says to get the vaccine and that people that howl not to are snake oil salesmen. As he is literally one of about 200 specialists in his field, I'll go with whatever he says.
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

At one point in my life I was very pro-vaccine.  I used to get the flu shots every year until I started reading the research.  It was this research that changed my mind and people have the right to know even if you don't agree.
 
Great. Rock on, I'm glad you have your opinions, but they're OPINIONS. For every source your provide screaming that there's a chance that you could get a malady from a Vaccine, there are twenty that say the chances of which are negligibly low. Vaccines are like anything in this world: A Game of Russian Roulette. If the chances of me having a bad reaction to a Polio or Flu vaccine are 1 in 300,000 I'll take those odds with a smile on my face.
 
Just as you say that people have a right to know your position even if I don't agree, they have the same right to know that I DO NOT agree with you too.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Elver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2013 at 8:49pm
Turbo,
 
The problem with trying to have any discussion with you is that when you disagree, rather than simply presenting evidence to back up your argument or even discussing things in a civilized manner, you like to put people down.  I don't care if anyone disagrees with me, but all to often, you simply "LOL" or try to make the other person feel as if their opinions are stupid or don't matter.
 
Above, for instance, you argue that I'm not a medical professional, but then neither are you.
 
Also, you referred to me as getting "butthurt".  I don't care if people disagree with me one bit.  I do care how they disagree and you have a bad habit of trying to put people down in the process.  There is no need to get nasty & sarcastic.
 
Above you also said; "I've seen you howl for Mahshadin's eviction from this forum"  For starters I never knew of Mahshadi's eviction, and never "howled" as you said above.  I thought he just quit on his own.  So, where on earth did you come up with this?
 
When a senior moderator says that they're tired of hearing it and assumes that anyone opposing routine vaccines has an agenda it sure sounds to me as if they are trying to get us to drop the subject.  It sure felt like sensorship to me, but I plowed on and ignored it anyway at the risk of getting kicked off this forum.  I felt that it was intimidation of a sort.  If I was kicked off the forum for expressing my opinions on the matter, then it wouldn't be a forum.
 
If you have faith in your patholotist I don't really care.  I simply state my opinions and try to provide information that I happen to agree with.  I don't dislike the fact that anyone has an opposing opinion, I dislike the manner in which they disagree.  Why can't you simply state your position rather than trying to make personal attacks all the time?
 
Once again you wrote; "For every source your provide screaming"  Well, I don't scream, but I'm really sick and tired of your sarcasm.
 
Your pathologist doesn't believe that routine vaccines can harm people, but there are other pathologists who would disagree with him and a whole bunch of doctors too.  Attached is a letter from a pathogist who disagrees with a mandatory hepatits B vaccine in Virginia.
 
You might want to read this doctor's opinion regarding routine vaccines.
 
In fact, our own CDC is still studying the safety of vaccines!  If they had already been proven to be totally safe, then why are they wasting their time doing this?
 
Just because you disagree with opinions different than your own doesn't mean that their agruments are "faulty arguments" as you said above.  They're only "faulty arguments" according to your opinion.  This tactic is another form of a put down.
 
Lastly, sgg51 sent me a huge power point that you might be interested in.  All you have to do is e-mail him.  Even if your mind is 100% made up it wouldn't hurt you to listen to other evidence on this issue if you wanted to.  But stop trying to blast me with more of your sarcasm because you don't agree with me.
 
 
 
 
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The EPA classifies a liquid with 200 parts per billion of mercury as hazardous waste.  The limit for drinking water is only 2 parts per billion.
 
A typical flu shot contains 50,000 parts per billion of mercury.  (5 millileter flu shot)
 
Hepatitis B contains 250 micrograms per shot
DTaP contains up to 625 micrograms per shot
Hepatitis A contains 25p micrograms per shot
Anthrax contains 600 mg of aluminum per shot
 
Anything greater than 25mcg is supposed to be labeled with;
"

WARNING: This product contains aluminum that may be toxic.  Aluminum may reach

toxic levels with prolonged parenteral administration if kidney function is impaired.  Premature neonates are particularly at risk because their kidneys are immature, and they require large amounts of calcium and phosphate solutions, which contain aluminum.  ...etc.

 
Vaccines are exempt from  this warning and are not required to follow the maximum dosage of 25mcg.
 
Read the Dr. Sears article about aluminum here.  http://www.askdrsears.com/topics/vaccines/vaccine-faqs
 
Now watch the video on how mercury destroys the brain.
 
According to Lilly's Material Safety Data Sheet, Thimerosal contains 49.6% w/w organically-bound mercury.
 
The EPA states the level of mercury an adult can receive safely is 0.8mcg/day. 
The FDA safe level is <1mcg of  mercury/gram of fish and the Japanese Gov. said that a safe level is <0.3 mcg/gram of fish.
 
Thimerisol has been removed from most childhood vaccines & I believe the single dose flu vaccine. The multi-dose vials need to be shaken every time to disperse the Thimerosal evenly or the last dose may contain more than 25mcg.
 
Thimerisol is still in tetanus toxoid, multi-dose seasonal flu vaccines all H1N1 (swine flu shots) and meningococcal vaccines as a preservative.
 
My conclusion is this.  You may not have any adverse effects from the shots you've been given so far, but you may as you get older.  You may have an increased risk of alzheimer's, kidney disease, neurological problems, etc.  Take your chances at your own peril down the road.
 
The CDC has now recognized that the mercury in the preservative Thimerosol is dangerous and has taken steps to remove it from children's vaccines.  If you're going to get a flu shot, then ask for Thimerosol free or single dose vials.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2013 at 8:39am
Since my name keeps being brought up here. I stand my ground that yes, I do believe that when a new person comes here and the only thing they post about is one or two topics that they are against, yes they have an agenda. I have not censored anyone! And yes, even though I am a mod, I have feelings and thoughts too and I suppose I am not allowed to post them? Sorry but I am also a member, so I can post my thoughts and feelings just like everyone else. As far as moderating/banning etc. we're pretty loose here, per Albert, the owners request, we have had to do some heavy moderating and banning in the past but it's been awhile. We don't like to, we believe in free speech and letting people express their opinions. The swineflu board is very heavily moderated for people who would like a different option, a lot of bird flu discussion going on over there right now. 
 
You can tell when a member is coming here to learn about something or wants to ask questions regarding a topic. A lot of people are afraid to ask questions because of the responses they get from other people, they are afraid of getting "jumped on" for what they say. So they just don't ask. I've seen people get jumped on a million times on message boards, I've been hanging on them for 15 years. This is a place for people to learn from and for information to be shared. We are here to help people, share information and answer questions.
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here,here , Penham
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Penham,
 
On page 2 of this thread you said; "And we don't need 10 different posts about whether it's safe to get the vaccine or not because someone wants to push their personal agenda. It's getting old."
 
Above you also said; "A lot of people are afraid to ask questions because of the responses they get from other people, they are afraid of getting "jumped on" for what they say."
(Gee, I wonder why.)
 
It sure seemed to me that you were trying to intimidate anyone from speaking further on this subject regarding an opposing view from your own.
 
Then above you said that this is a forum that we can learn from.  Well, no one can learn from another person if they're intimidated not to post anything again. 
 
Well, this sgg51 surely wasn't welcomed, so I'd be surprised if he hangs out here any longer.  As for me I'm so glad that he came.  He sent me a power point that he obviously has put hundreds of hours into.  It is extremely informative if anyone asks him for it.  sgg51 was courteous and respectful and was met with sarcasm and a "go away" attitude.  How on earth can he stay here to post on anything else since he's being intimidated to leave?  No one has given him the chance to stick around or the respect.  I've been here for years, even before my current logon name says so.  In all this time I've never read any post that says; "It's getting old".  
 
As far as I can see sgg51's only agenda is to provide information and have a respectful discussion, which obviously appears to be unwelcome.
 
The literature is full of information regarding the fact that major diseases such as polio and smallpox had been reducing drastically on their own prior to their respective vaccines even being introduced.  This was caused by better sanitation and hygiene, not the vaccine.
 
If you asked sgg51 for his Power Point, he cites the exact facts and sources, such as the United States Census.  This is a wealth of information and I am very grateful that he took an extreme amount of effort to compile it.  Instead of trying to run him out on a rail, perhaps this forum should welcome people who hold different points of view and give them an opportunity to stay long enough to post on other topics.
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Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

On page 2 of this thread you said; "And we don't need 10 different posts about whether it's safe to get the vaccine or not because someone wants to push their personal agenda. It's getting old."
 
Above you also said; "A lot of people are afraid to ask questions because of the responses they get from other people, they are afraid of getting "jumped on" for what they say."
(Gee, I wonder why.)
 
It sure seemed to me that you were trying to intimidate anyone from speaking further on this subject regarding an opposing view from your own.


Absolute bulls hit! He didn't ask any questions, he made this thread trying to push his BS agenda under the guise of a "Discussion" which was anything but. Then when someone disagreed with him, he got butthurt.

If she'd wanted to intimidate him or you, she could have said something more along the lines of "Next person to post this crap is getting banned!"

She didn't even remove this thread. Your faux butthurt can't be taken seriously.

Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:


Then above you said that this is a forum that we can learn from.  Well, no one can learn from another person if they're intimidated not to post anything again.


Yes, intimidated into not posting anything again because people disagree with his drivel, flashy colors and big fonts, which he calls "Facts" and they're backed up by more bull. If you can't back up what you post, it is crap. Besides, I'm not going to let him post that kind of GARBAGE without getting challenged on it.

Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:


Well, this sgg51 surely wasn't welcomed, so I'd be surprised if he hangs out here any longer.  As for me I'm so glad that he came.  He sent me a power point that he obviously has put hundreds of hours into.  It is extremely informative if anyone asks him for it.  sgg51 was courteous and respectful and was met with sarcasm and a "go away" attitude.  How on earth can he stay here to post on anything else since he's being intimidated to leave?  No one has given him the chance to stick around or the respect.  I've been here for years, even before my current logon name says so.  In all this time I've never read any post that says; "It's getting old".  
 
As far as I can see sgg51's only agenda is to provide information and have a respectful discussion, which obviously appears to be unwelcome.


He's not unwelcome at all. But if he thinks he's going to be able to post crap that is WIDELY DISCREDITED TIME AND AGAIN without challenge, he, and you, have another thing coming. Every time another slice of the tinfoil brigade comes along they post the same crap the same way. Besides, he had no intention whatsoever of having a discussion, he was only here to posit that bulls hit. There's honestly no discussion to be had with someone that is that wrong.


Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

The literature is full of information regarding the fact that major diseases such as polio and smallpox had been reducing drastically on their own prior to their respective vaccines even being introduced.  This was caused by better sanitation and hygiene, not the vaccine.


Are you serious or are you trolling? Seriously man, if you're going to cry about me reacting with sarcasm and hysterical laughter, maybe, and I mean just maybe, you should post something that can be taken remotely seriously.

Let me get this crystal clear straight: Immunizing nearly the entirety of the U.S. population had nothing to do with the literal eradication of Polio, Tetanus, and Smallpox? Are you serious? HAHAHAHAHA! Congratulations on just about the funniest paragraph I've read in years because if you actually believe what you wrote there, I've got news for you: I'm not the only one laughing at you.

Ever been to Africa? I have. To a place where Typhoid is endemic and spent four months in sub saharan Africa. Guess who didn't catch Typhoid. I once had a guy who was infected with *ACTIVE* Hepatitis B spit blood in my face. I even tasted his blood. Guess who didn't get Hep B? I stepped on a nail that punctured my shoe a couple weeks ago. Guess who's immune to Tetanus? Heck, guess who hasn't ever even had to WORRY about getting Tetanus?

This guy.

Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:


If you asked sgg51 for his Power Point, he cites the exact facts and sources, such as the United States Census.  This is a wealth of information and I am very grateful that he took an extreme amount of effort to compile it.  Instead of trying to run him out on a rail, perhaps this forum should welcome people who hold different points of view and give them an opportunity to stay long enough to post on other topics.


Nobody told him he can't post his drivel, but if the guy's going to post that, he's damn sure going to get challenged to it.

Example: He talked long and proud about Guillain Barre syndrome, an affliction that affects one in a million people, and even then for the most part is easily taken care of. Every single CREDIBLE source goes directly against what the guy was saying. He's selling snake oil. Period.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote quietprepr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2013 at 10:46am
The title of this thread was to ask if we believed in mandatory vaccinations. Nearly all of us do not agree with mandatory anything. I think the title was a bit misleading. It should have been, "Do you believe in vaccinations of any kind?"
I believe everyone is entitled to post their opinion, but when disagreed with, sgg51 said "good luck with your phony mystical or mythological beliefs" Something to that affect anyway, I am not going to read back through all this to get the exact quote. That isnt someone open to real debate, that is a lecture and pretty condescending. Perhaps my sarcasm was a bit over the top, but I certainly do not want anyone who disagrees with me silenced.
Also, I have been to Africa and seen polio up close...it is horrifying in real life and I am so glad it was eradicated here before my kids were born.
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Turbo,
 
Show me evidence to the contrary on these two items.
 
1)
90% of all disease deaths had disappeared prior to vaccines even being introduced.
 
This was due to better hygiene, sanitation, clean drinking water.  Did you know that true herd immunity was also another reason?  True herd immunity is gotten from people who have already gotten the disease and recovered.  (Taken from an independent source with no ties to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.) 
 
From 1911-1945 “the death rate of diphtheria, measles and whooping cough dclined 95% among children , before the mass immunization program started in the United States.”
 
These facts were cited in his power point from this source.  His power point is absolutely full of sources. 
Dublin L, Health progress, 1935-1945, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, pg. 12, 1948
Reference:  Dublin L, Health progress, 1935-1945, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, pg. 12,
____________________________________________
2)
Diptheria deaths per 100,000:
1901       41,839
1906-      28,225
1911-      20,350
1916-      15,623
1921-      12,267
1926-       7,074
1931-       4,388
1936-       2,189
1941-       1,135       (vaccine introduced in the early 1940's)
1946-          467
1951-          125
1956-           45
1961-           22
1966-           15
1971-75       12
 
 

Reference:  International Mortality Statistics by Michael Rowland Alderson Hardcover, 524 Pages, Published 1981 by Facts On File

ISBN-13: 978-0-87196-514-ISBN, ISBN: 0-87196-514-3

 
In fact once you research this for yourself you will find that Polio, Diptheria, Pertussis, Tetanus, Measles, & the Influenza were all in serious decline prior to any vaccinations.-0
 
Turbo, I believe that your mind is so closed off to hearing other evidence that you wouldn't read it if it were handed to you.  That's your option, but it would be better that you provide your own evidence to the contrary since you want to continue this discussion.
 
I have real immunity because I don't get the flu shot.  I get the flu and get over it like most healthy people who don't get vaccinated do.  When the flu shot doesn't even match the current years strain, as happens quite often, you're getting herd immunity from us!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MamaBear4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 3:28pm
I would love to see everyone's opinion of the shingles vaccine, please. Thank you in advance!
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I don't know much about the shingles vaccine because I haven't looked into it too much.  I've heard that people have gotten the shingles from the vaccine.  (Zostavax, manufactured by Merck is a live virus vaccine.)  I've also read that people getting the vaccine have a higher incidence of shingles than people who don't get this vaccine.  More studies need to prove or disprove this.  I do know that getting shingles can cause permanent nerve damage in a very small percentage of <1%.  (See Postherpetic Neuralgia)  Your chances of getting this nerve damage rises with age up to approx. 3% after age 80.
 
Nobody on my side of the family has ever had shingles.  My father-in-law had shingles which we believed was caused by a case of nerves.  He was told that his pig heart valve was good for about 8 years.  In his 8th year he got a case of shingles, but fully recovered.
 
The FDA approved this vaccine in 2006 and feels that it could reduce your chances of getting shingles by more than half and also reduce post-herpetic neuralgia by over 2/3rds.  When you are talking about statistics, half and 2/3rds sound like large numbers, but I've pasted below Merck's brochure so you can look for yourself on page 9.
 
MRC-5 cells are in this vaccine.  These cells come from aborted fetal cell tissue!
 
Apparently, .4% of unvaccinated people get postherpetic neuralgia while .14% of vaccinated people get this.  So, this nerve damage is less than 1% either way.
 
Shingles usually isn't dangerous and the vaccine is pretty expensive.
 
Here is Merck's pamphlet.  Look at the lower part of page 5 & page 6 where it talks about adverse side effects that occur with people who get the vaccine versus people who get a placebo.
 
Page 9 shows the incidence rates for vaccinated versus placebo.  If my math is correct, 22 of 1,000 people who get the shingles vaccine will get shingles compared with 74 of 1,000 in people who don't get it.  The difference isn't huge and >99% of the people recover without problems. 
 
Why don't you research what is written about this vaccine and tell us your opinion?
 
Like any vaccine, I'm not blindly jumping on this one either.  It hasn't been out that long and I'm sure many studies will follow.  Not many people are getting this vaccine, so the data will be slow coming in.  I'm not old enough for this vaccine yet so have time to look into this further.
 
The irony here is that most people would be willing take flu vaccines even though your chances of getting brain damange, kidney problems, or Guillian Barre as a result are pretty low.  I'd be willing to bet that eventually lots of people would want this vaccine even though the chances of severe nerve damage is less than 1% for people under 60 and rise to only 3% for folks over 80.
 
People are willing to overlook the potential problems with flu vaccines, but would be willing to get the shingles vaccine to prevent a low incidence of shingles and very low incidence of nerve damage accompanied with it.  Go figure!  In either case, if you're one of the unlucky few, you'll be screaming from the rafters pro or con regarding vaccines.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MamaBear4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 9:20pm
Thank you for your opinion Elver I really appreciate it! Would love to hear from others about their experience with this or people they know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 10:11pm
One other thing,  this shingles vaccine isn't cheap.  Expect to pay around $205 to $220.
 
If you looked carefully at page 10 of the Merck brochure, it doesn't seem that this cost is worth the benefits since so few people ever get shingles in the first place.  Merck is making a lot of money!  Even those that do get the shingles, very few will end up with nerve damage.
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 07 2013 at 10:39pm
I've known a few people with shingles and it's very painful, and I know someone that has shingles at the moment and it's been about a year since it started. He's in a lot of pain all the time, and even the slightest touch on his back or arms makes him cry out. He was telling me that apparently shingles is the second leading pain related cause of suicide in men next to cancer.
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote debbiencusa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 11:21am
i do not believe in mandatory but in the case of a virus so deadly it could wipe out society as we know it, i believe those who refuse the vaccine should be required to live separate from others.  The new h7n9 is said to not respond well to vaccines which means that if a volunerable patient due to age, pre existing diseasse etc gets a lot of exposure through many unavoidable life situations like work, having to buy food etc they are way more likely to catch the virus. The unvaccinated can carry the disease and not get it also. That would potentially effect all the vulnerable folks in ways that are not even measureable. That seems very unfair to me, someone else chooses not to vaccinate and bc of that another person or loved family member dies due to exposure.
Just as they had the TB sanitariums they should have unvacinated areas, no herd protection for those who do not want to take the vaccine, let them sip with other like minded folks, there are plenty of Dr.s and nurses who do not want to take the vaccine also, let them treat the unvacinated. This in my opinion portects everyone else, and truly puts to the test the depth of the beliefs against vaccination, without making those of us who must take the vaccine guinea pigs in the experiment of to vaccinate or not.
If this seems harsh I apologize but coming from a family with many pre existing medical conditions which make vaccination a must, it seems very harsh to me that someone elses actions or lack there of could effect my families ability to survive. All I ask is to put their money where their mouth is, and mark the home so people know that unvaccinated live there and do not allow them to leave for any reason, or provide separate housing for the duration.
God Bless
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 12:46pm
Originally posted by debbiencusa debbiencusa wrote:

i do not believe in mandatory but in the case of a virus so deadly it could wipe out society as we know it, i believe those who refuse the vaccine should be required to live separate from others.  The new h7n9 is said to not respond well to vaccines which means that if a volunerable patient due to age, pre existing diseasse etc gets a lot of exposure through many unavoidable life situations like work, having to buy food etc they are way more likely to catch the virus. The unvaccinated can carry the disease and not get it also. That would potentially effect all the vulnerable folks in ways that are not even measureable. That seems very unfair to me, someone else chooses not to vaccinate and bc of that another person or loved family member dies due to exposure.
Just as they had the TB sanitariums they should have unvacinated areas, no herd protection for those who do not want to take the vaccine, let them sip with other like minded folks, there are plenty of Dr.s and nurses who do not want to take the vaccine also, let them treat the unvacinated. This in my opinion portects everyone else, and truly puts to the test the depth of the beliefs against vaccination, without making those of us who must take the vaccine guinea pigs in the experiment of to vaccinate or not.
If this seems harsh I apologize but coming from a family with many pre existing medical conditions which make vaccination a must, it seems very harsh to me that someone elses actions or lack there of could effect my families ability to survive. All I ask is to put their money where their mouth is, and mark the home so people know that unvaccinated live there and do not allow them to leave for any reason, or provide separate housing for the duration.
 
Right on! I 100% agree with your opinion!
 
WHile not mandatory, if you decide to not get it and run around the world unprotected, you shouldn't get to come back.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 08 2013 at 1:10pm
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

90% of all disease deaths had disappeared prior to vaccines even being introduced.
 
This was due to better hygiene, sanitation, clean drinking water.  Did you know that true herd immunity was also another reason?  True herd immunity is gotten from people who have already gotten the disease and recovered.  (Taken from an independent source with no ties to vaccinate or not to vaccinate.) 
 
From 1911-1945 “the death rate of diphtheria, measles and whooping cough dclined 95% among children , before the mass immunization program started in the United States.”
 
These facts were cited in his power point from this source.  His power point is absolutely full of sources. 
Dublin L, Health progress, 1935-1945, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, pg. 12, 1948
Reference:  Dublin L, Health progress, 1935-1945, Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, pg. 12
 
 
Okay Elver, let's ask our selves why that is, shall we?
 
Since you're the one who happily posited that it was herd immunity later in your post, I'll go with that.
 
So, everyone, or at the very least all kinds of people caught Whooping Cough, Diptheria, Measels, etc and got over it or *DIED!* Those that survived, went on to live with the immunity that they gained just by surviving. You're absolutely right.
 
The problem with your logic is that they had to SURVIVE THE ILLNESS! I got a shot as a child that rendered me 100% immune to having to worry about whether or not I'd survive. I've never had Whooping Cough, Measels, Diptheria, Typhus, Mumps, Rubella/Rubiola, HEP of any kind, etc not because I was never exposed to those agents, but because I was vaccinated against them. That alone is evidence enough to prove you 100% wrong.
 
How long ago did we all collectively have to absolutely worry about a Smallpox outbreak? Nowadays they don't even give the vaccination (Military aside because I got it) to kids because the illness has largely been eradicated THROUGH VACCINATION!  
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

2)
Diptheria deaths per 100,000:
1901       41,839
1906-      28,225
1911-      20,350
1916-      15,623
1921-      12,267
1926-       7,074
1931-       4,388
1936-       2,189
1941-       1,135       (vaccine introduced in the early 1940's)
1946-          467
1951-          125
1956-           45
1961-           22
1966-           15
1971-75       12
 
 

Reference:  International Mortality Statistics by Michael Rowland Alderson Hardcover, 524 Pages, Published 1981 by Facts On File

ISBN-13: 978-0-87196-514-ISBN, ISBN: 0-87196-514-3

 
You're really going to try to say that modern medicine had nothing to do with people being able to live through diptheria?  Really? Vaccinations allowed people to live without worrying about getting diptheria in the first place. I find it ironic that you posted DEATHS from Diptheria instead of CASES of Diptheria.
 
 
What you, and SGG or whatever his name was, are doing here is dropping the exact same logic bomb that antigun fanatics try to spew when they say we should be forcibly disarmed: That the U.S. has far higher gun deaths than any other country, and it's true! THAT'S BECAUSE WE HAVE GUNS! What they leave out is teh AGGRIVATED CRIME and MURDER rates actually go up in disarmed populations. The UK is an excellent example with their Aggrivated Crime rate that is nearly three times what it is in the United States.
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

Turbo, I believe that your mind is so closed off to hearing other evidence that you wouldn't read it if it were handed to you.  That's your option, but it would be better that you provide your own evidence to the contrary since you want to continue this discussion.
 
Pot to kettle, pot to kettle, you are black. I have to provide sources and evidence time and again? Something like 99.9999999% of DOCTORS directly disagree with you. What part of that are you missing? 
 
Originally posted by Elver Elver wrote:

I have real immunity because I don't get the flu shot.  I get the flu and get over it like most healthy people who don't get vaccinated do.  When the flu shot doesn't even match the current years strain, as happens quite often, you're getting herd immunity from us!
 
I don't even get the seasonal Flu in the FIRST PLACE because I got the shot.
 
While yes, sometimes they miss the strain that goes around the United States, you're still protected from all the other strains that are going around too, especially the really nasty ones. Each and every year there's something like six to ten strains of the flu zipping around and you catch *ONE* of them. Not all six to ten. Just one. Who is getting herd immunity from whom here?
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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