| PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL |
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| Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Ebola - droplet transmission is airborne |
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jacksdad 
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 Posted: October 01 2014 at 6:52pm |
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Absolutely right. But only as long as you're close - that's the important distinction, Med.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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KiwiMum
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 6:54pm |
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How close would you have to be? Or, to put it another way, how far away would you have to be to be safe from Ebola in a sneeze?
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Those who got it wrong, for whatever reason, may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn’t accord with the facts.
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 7:20pm |
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Everything I'm reading puts it at about three feet, primarily in the direction of the cough or sneeze. The significance is that it's far less than airborne transmission that could involve the entire room regardless of whether the patient is facing toward or away from you. There is also a time factor involved - droplets fall faster because of their size. Because droplets infect by being deposited on the host's conjunctivae, nasal mucosa, or mouth, it's often classed as a form of contact transmission.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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drumfish
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 7:26pm |
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So with the photos we are seeing on ppe out of Africa: tyvek suit, goggles, mask, taped around face and gloves are we saying that is over kill?
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Satori
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 7:42pm |
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yeah the CDC is saying 3 feet so your safe at 4 ??? really? REALLY??? sorry as far as I am concerned the CDC and WHO have little to no credibility they've bungled this from the get go I'm far from going into any kind of panic mode but I am a FIRM believer that those in the shallow end of the gene pool aren't going to make it Darwin had it right it's not necessarily the biggest or strongest that survive it's the ones that quickly recognize that change has occurred and then they adapt quickest to the new order of things you HAVE to think outside the box |
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drumfish
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 8:15pm |
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I am just trying to absorb the discussion. In the media its like there saying really hard to catch. On aft I get two schools of thought. First its worse than media suggests more like mask, gloves, goggles, maybe an apron or lab coat. Second, more like care givers in Africa or more.
Then there have been pictures of hospitials showing something along the lines of a biohazard level 4 space suit. I don't believe the stuff on TV right now (common sense tells me it is worse than that). Like wise I know I will not have a space suit so if that's necessary were toast. Though I am starting to think if not taking care of infected or on burial detail gloves and mask, face shield would be adequate for shopping etc. adding keeping some distance from others, If outbreak occurs. |
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 8:31pm |
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I'm a healthcare worker, and one of the realities of my job is that I'll be in close proximity to patients. You can't do much if they're more than an arm's length away. The people you see in West Africa are also HCWs taking care of patients, and as such they'll be within range of any snot heading their way. I don't see how people immediately equate masks and goggles to airborne transmission when it's exactly what they should be wearing for close contact with patients potentially coughing droplets.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Satori
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 9:23pm |
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Guidance on Air Medical Transport for Patients with Ebola Virus Disease http://www.cdc.gov/vhf/ebola/hcp/guidance-air-medical-transport-patients.html " Procedures that might generate aerosols, such as intubation, should be avoided unless necessary for patient care;" there's that nasty little word that keeps creeping into the conversation "aerosols" Local hospitals bracing for the appearance, however unlikely, of Ebola http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/09/25/4181942/local-hospitals-bracing-for-the.html take a look at the pic these guys are doing in right CIDRAP style following the CDC and WHO is gonna get you dead Isolation and Reverse Isolation http://criticalcaremedicine.pbworks.com/w/page/16648181/Isolation%20and%20Reverse%20Isolation " Airborne transmission Airborne transmission occurs by dissemination of either airborne droplet nuclei or small particles in the respirable size range containing infectious agents that remain infective over time and distance." "Airborne Precautions: are EBOLA patients being placed in negative pressure rooms ? and curiously this article recommends N95 or higher are YOU going to just wear a mask that is only 95% effective against a disease with a 70% or better fatality rate ? gonna go home and give yer wife/husband and kids a big hug when you get home from work??? gonna take that chance ??? Me??? I'm not taking that chance I'm going the FULL monty or not at all Contagion Blast Radius: How Far Can Ebola Droplets Travel? http://www.thedailysheeple.com/contagion-blast-radius-how-far-can-ebola-droplets-travel_102014 and why pray tell did the government order 160,000 of these and not a couple truckloads of isolation gowns and N95 masks ????????? |
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 10:50pm |
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Then call it airborne and concentrate on the wrong thing at the expense of learning to use the applicable PPE, proper glove use (a lot more involved than you might think) and effective hand hygiene. I guarantee the vast majority of cases are by contact transmission, but knock yourself out and focus on an unproven theoretical mode of infection.
The suits are for HCWs that are going to be up in the grill of infected patients potentially sending out droplets. One gets on your skin, you're now a fomite; one hits your mouth, nasal passages or eyes and you're infected. If you're planning on getting some serious face time with an Ebola patient, it's appropriate PPE and you should invest in some. Personally, I don't plan to. |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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CRS, DrPH
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 10:51pm |
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Thanks, JD, you are a hero amongst many. This is the CDC protocol for removing contaminated PPE: OK, now imagine doing all of that in a tropical rainforest, in a makeshift clinic with no running water/dirt floor, with your patients (many more than one) vomiting, crapping, and bleeding out all over the place, while you are trying to maintain hydration. No wonder this thing is out of control. |
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 10:59pm |
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Exactly right, Chuck. Trying to avoid infection under those conditions must be a nightmare. Takes a special person to realize the danger they're putting themselves in, and yet still stay to help.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 11:00pm |
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Thanks for that link, Chuck. Maybe we should have a thread dedicated to PPE, wearing it, removing it, hand washing, etc.
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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drumfish
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Posted: October 01 2014 at 11:08pm |
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I would read it.
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Technophobe
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 4:17am |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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coyote
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 4:46am |
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When us preppers decide to SIP, I wouldn't think that their wouldn't be any need to be wearing any PPE..
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Long time lurker since day one to Member.
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coyote
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 5:00am |
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When Albert goes to 5 we will now it's about to hit the fan..
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Long time lurker since day one to Member.
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Albert
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 6:20am |
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technobrat2
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 1:36pm |
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Ebola does not really need to become airborne its infectious enough isnt it?
wouldnt this be a retrograde step from the point of view of the virus as in order to become airborne it would have to develop an envelope wich would make it less infectious?  |
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if you have found my missing unicorn stop taking the pills and consult professor sprout immediately
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onefluover
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 1:43pm |
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Welcome Technobrat2. Well I can see your parents have done a great job. I do not know the definitive answer to that but it seems very logical and likely to me.
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"And then there were none."
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 1:59pm |
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I agree Technobrat - I can't imagine why people are so anxious to see Ebola get any worse. Kinda like putting lasers on sharks
 It's actually an enveloped virus already, and the change to a respiratory route of infection is no guarantee that it would become more virulent. The change would also require a complete makeover of it's genetic code and I don't see it happening. |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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technobrat2
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 2:01pm |
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ooh i dont know about that oneflu iv got my dads smart mouth and my mums stubbournness.
 thanks though  im still learning but virology is a very interesting topic to me and i enjoy using this site because i have learned a lot from here. oh and were also all hard core preppers over here so the sites good for that too. |
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if you have found my missing unicorn stop taking the pills and consult professor sprout immediately
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technobrat2
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 2:07pm |
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thanks jd for clarifying that and i like your lasers on sharks quote
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if you have found my missing unicorn stop taking the pills and consult professor sprout immediately
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Satori
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 2:14pm |
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JD I don't think anyone wants ebola to get worse ever watch the movie World War Z ? remember the discussion about "the tenth man " ??? many years ago I came across a study done involving a troop of monkeys researchers had noticed that a certain # of the monkeys seemed to stay on the edge or outside of the main group it turned out these individuals were hypervigilant to any threat to the troop they served as early warning devices the researchers captured and removed these particular monkeys in a year or so most of the troop was dead something to be said for the "doomer monkeys" as I call them |
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 4:07pm |
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HONOLULU – The Hawaii State Department of Health (DOH) has determined that the individual in isolation at a Honolulu hospital who was reported to the department as a possible Ebola case yesterday does not meet the criteria for testing. The individual is no longer under evaluation for possible Ebola infection. “The hospital acted in the best interests of the community, with an abundance of caution,” said Health Director Dr. Linda Rosen. “We commend the facility for being prepared and remaining vigilant regarding the risk of Ebola. After investigation by the health department, it was determined that the individual did not meet the clinical or travel exposure criteria for an Ebola infection.” comment: Why release this person without testing them? Is it because we just cannot deal with another positive in the U.S.? Continuing the theme on this thread - we do not need a weaponized grade virus for something to spread in the air. If a sneeze will spread it, and we are beginning to have cases in the U.S., the entire mega-fabrication that it "cannot happen here" is up for question. Why not? It seems to be doing quite well in Sierra Leone and West Africa - often with people not in contact with the ill. |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 02 2014 at 4:10pm |
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http://www.hispanicbusiness.com/2014/10/2/ebola_could_become_airborne_un_warns.htm
"The longer it moves around in human hosts in the virulent melting pot that is West Africa, the more chances increase that it could mutate," he told the Telegraph. In the US, some 80 people have been found to have had contact with the first confirmed case of Ebola in the country, CNBC quoted medical staff as saying. They noted that the people had not had close contact with the patient, who is hospitalized in Dallas, Texas. Another suspected case has been found in Hawaii. According to broadcaster ABC, the individual has been put in an isolation unit in the Queen's Medical Center of Honolulu while tests are run after exhibiting symptoms similar to those caused by the Ebola virus. comment: If this thing infects enough people, the chances of it becoming more airborne do as well. Medclincian |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 9:55am |
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http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/10/04/gave-me-big-hug-fearful-daughter-dallas-ebola-patient-girlfriend-says/
People are catching Ebola where there appears to be no intimate contact, i.e. touching or liquids. http://www.nydailynews.com/life-style/health/american-journalist-scared-worried-contracting-ebola-liberia-article-1.1962064 He had been living in Liberia for the past three years as an aid worker and then photojournalist. Mukpo’s parents met at a Buddhist center in Boulder, Colo., and raised him in the faith. As a baby, he was recognized by another Buddhist lama as a reincarnated spiritual leader, the family says. It’s not known how Mukpo contracted the potentially deadly fever. Snyderman said the news team had been washing equipment with bleach and avoiding unnecessary contact to lessen their chances of infection. How exactly will we finally know that Ebola is airborne? The spread will increase exponentially. Yet, the real issue here is limited airborne, which has been demonstrated and the worse fact that even by touch and liquids Ebola is one of the most lethal viruses in history and highly contagious. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Johnray1
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 10:10am |
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Med,egos in the academic world are very big and very jealous. They will not change their mind until overwhelming evidence forces them to. Unfortunately,many will die before that happens.Johnray1
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CRS, DrPH
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 1:22pm |
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Although airborne infection can be made to occur in a lab, there is
no evidence for airborne droplet nuclei spreading EBOV from person-to-person or
between non-human primates whether inside or outside the lab.
Protection and clarification.
Included in
guidelines issued by the WHO (7) and CDC (5) is the need for droplet
precautions (Figure). This is very important for healthcare workers, family and
other caregivers who stay close and are frequently exposed for lengthy periods
of time with severely ill, highly virulent cases of EVD. These cases may
actively propel infectious droplets containing vomit and blood across the short
distances separating them from caregivers. But this is a form of direct
transmission, and is not airborne transmission. |
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CRS, DrPH
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Albert
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 1:23pm |
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Chuck, you could be niman's long lost brother, lol. About to give you your own forum room my friend. Keep up the good work.
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lion
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 1:45pm |
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I also think you are correct as it relates to droplet transmission. There are a few possible ways for ebola spread and that makes this a global concern.
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onefluover
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 2:07pm |
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I see how and why droplet is or should be considered direct contact. In law, spitting on someone is considered assault by direct contact. Though the verdict is not in for me as concerning whether some form of true aerosol-transmission has or ever can or ever will occure with EVD. I am sold on the reasons why mutations to aerosolablity for a very long time to come are extremely unlikely. Not so sold on a recombining with another, possibly even unknown filoviridae, that may contain better airborne properties. HIV being replicated and resident primarily in blood. Hepatitis in blood and liver. Ebola in all wet cells (excluding maybe hair and fingernails), including lung tissue where coinfection with flu may help release EBOV into the air in some way, or being expelled via sweat, vomit, blood that is then aerosolized by some other means, seems possible enough that I am reluctant to discard wholesale such a theory in light of the ramifications of being wrong about such.
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"And then there were none."
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 4:52pm |
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Big letters do not a point make. As well as being Niman's brother, that is unlikely. I have talked to him and your writing sounds nothing like him. He pushes the idea of modification of spread and lethality with increased mutation. You can put this up any number of times, but we have evidence of transmission through the air in several lab incidents as well as the fact large sneezed droplets can spread the disease. The CDC and WHO have reached a high ground from which they, or those who support them will not budge. It is literally impossible to say what this can do given enough mutation. What part of this is difficult to understand? http://investmentwatchblog.com/ebola-airborne-spread-among-humans-is-strongly-suspected-public-health-agency-of-canada/ NFECTIOUS DOSE: 1 – 10 aerosolized organisms are sufficient to cause infection in humans http://www.phac-aspc.gc.ca/lab-bio/res/psds-ftss/ebola-eng.php Airborne transmission of ebola http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/cherry/140818 Canadian scientists have shown that the deadliest form of the ebola virus could be transmitted by air between species. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20341423 Ebola death toll reaches 1229 http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/ebola-crisis-missing-suspected-patients-in-liberia-found-1.2740304 comment: It happened. |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 5:29pm |
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Nice try, Chuck.
Pigs, Med - it was pigs. They passed it to macaques when housed eight inches away for two weeks. How is that remotely applicable to humans in the real world? And why am I not surprised when the same clueless bunch that pocketed a grant for this go on to say they believe it plays a role in the spread of Ebola in the current outbreak? "Pigs probably aren’t a source of Ebola outbreaks. Few have even been found to carry Ebola. Pigs in the Philippines have been found to carry Reston ebolavirus, a species of Ebola that does not cause disease in people. No African pigs are known to be infected with Zaire ebolavirus, the cause of the current epidemic. Even if pigs can transmit the virus by air, they may be unique in the ability. The new study, published July 25 in Scientific Reports
by Kobinger and a different group of collaborators, found no evidence
that sick macaques could give the virus to healthy monkeys through
airborne particles....The researchers placed two rhesus macaques
infected with Zaire ebolavirus in cages near two uninfected cynomolgus
macaques. The animals couldn’t touch, but no special shielding protected
the uninfected monkeys. The infected monkeys died after six days.
Meanwhile, the cynomolgus macaques remained free of Ebola for the entire
28 days of the experiment, well beyond the six to 16 days it takes for
symptoms to appear after catching Ebola." |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 10:12pm |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 10:20pm |
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http://airborneinfection.blogspot.com/2007/09/is-ebola-airborne.html
This has nothing to do with pigs or monkeys. Is Ebola transmitted via the air? In primates the Ebola virus was transmitted through the air in a research facility in Reston, Virginia. Apparently the mutations that allowed the virus to easily transmit via the air also changed its effect on humans. Tests showed that four lab workers tested positive for Ebola Reston virus, but this strain of the virus caused only minor health problems (although all the monkeys in the Reston facility were destroyed to prevent the outbreak from spreading). There are claims, however, that airborne human to human transmission of Ebola occurred in 1976. Reports say that Mayinga N'Seka (seen as the patient in the image to the right), a nurse in Zaire may have contracted the virus via the air. Evidence is thin, and even if it was true, Nurse Mayinga did not infect any other humans before she died. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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CRS, DrPH
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 10:49pm |
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Who is Niman? I haven't been on this forum that long. MC, I first learned about droplet nuclei in grad school, 1979. This paragraph is key to the Aussie's post. Filoviruses do not seem prone to survival in droplet nuclei, it may be due to their physical shape (filaments) vs. the round, enveloped viruses that are typically "airborne" (influenza, coronas etc.). Droplet transmission is not technically airborne.....the chunk of snot may fly through the air, but it doesn't stay in the air very long. Droplet nuclei can stay suspended for hours. Whether propelled by sneezing, coughing, talking, splashing, flushing or some other process, aerosols (an over-arching term) include a range of particle sizes. Those droplets larger than 5-10 millionths of a meter (a micron [µm]; about 1/10 the width of a human hair), fall to the ground within seconds or impact on another surface, without evaporating (see Figure). The smaller droplets that remain suspended in the air evaporate very quickly (< 1/10 sec in dry air), leaving behind particles consisting of proteins, salts and other things left after the water is removed, including suspended viruses and bacteria. These leftovers, which may be more like a gel, depending on the humidity, are called droplet nuclei. They can remain airborne for hours and, if unimpeded, travel wherever the wind blows them. Coughs, sneezes and toilet flushes generate both droplets and droplet nuclei. Droplets smaller than 5-10µm almost always dry fast enough to form droplet nuclei without falling to the ground, and it is usual for scientists to refer to these as being in the airborne size range. It is only the droplet nuclei that are capable of riding the air currents through a hospital, shopping centre or office building. |
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CRS, DrPH
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CRS, DrPH
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 10:56pm |
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This graphic illustrates the physics of droplet nuclei. I consult in infection control in hospitals that perform heart/lung transplants, and these buggers are always an issue for us. Airborne transmission via droplet nuclei is unproven for Ebola, the Soviets tried to aersolize filoviruses for years and failed. They seem to be too delicate.
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 11:35pm |
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If the research study you're presenting as definitive proof involved infection between pigs and monkeys - then yes, it really does have something to do with pigs and monkeys. Reston again? Really? Here we go again... Med - both shipments of monkeys originated from the same Ferlite Farms holding center on Mindanao Island in the Philippines, and arrived at HRC in Virginia four days apart. Ferlite Farms was experiencing an outbreak of hemorrhagic disease at that time, and the first group of macaques were positively identified as being infected on arrival by the U.S. Army Medical Research Institute of Infectious Diseases (MRIID). When they began to fall ill, they were killed. Shortly after, the second group developed symptoms and tested positive for the exact same virus and were killed. There are two conclusions you can draw. One is that both groups were subclinically carrying the virus when they arrived from the same infected facility in the Philippines and developed symptoms in keeping with their respective shipping dates; and the other is that Reston spread in a way never seen before or since - by airborne transmission through ventilation ducting. The first makes far more sense to me, but I grant you it's a good deal less exciting than the second. And the humans that were infected? They were never in isolation - they were HRC employees with access to all areas of the facility who would have been responsible for receiving, housing, feeding, cleaning and drawing blood from the monkeys while they were being held there. Any one of those sounds like perfect conditions for contact transmission to occur to me. Incidentally, like HRC in Virginia, Ferlite Farms also identified a number of asymptomatically infected workers at their facility on Mindanao at the exact same time they were sending the two shipments of sick monkeys to HRC. Coincidence? With regards to the claim that mutations had taken place - as far as I'm aware, Reston has only ever been identified as asymptomatic in humans. Links to articles that demonstrate symptomatic infection in humans prior to the outbreak at HRC would be appreciated, Med.
"There are claims" "...may have contracted the virus by air," "Evidence is thin..." "...even if it was true...". I'm sorry Med, but I haven't seen that much fudging in one paragraph in a long time. |
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"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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arirish
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 11:47pm |
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Chuck- Thanks for the graphics, this argument is really getting old! If it were air borne it would already be world wide, millions not thousands dying! It's a horrible little bug and I feel sorry for all those who contract it but it doesn't compare to a novel influenza! I'm glad this site is covering Ebola but lets not forget where the true danger lies!
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 04 2014 at 11:48pm |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 05 2014 at 12:26am |
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There have been multiple statements that this could be spread by a sneeze. The more politically sensistive this has become the more hardline the statements have become. Ebola has an incubation period of up to 21 days. Hospitals were putting patients in isolation with reverse air pressure. You can show all the pictures you want but I have had a chunk of mucous quite large on my cheek which traveled several feet from the sneezer. We are not talking about floating particles in the air, we are talking about a projectile droplet on someone's face. A single door knob can contaminate most of the people in a building in a matter of hours, especially if it is the front door. The point here is that it may have limited airborne transmission but with a few more mutations it could become very airborne. http://www.newsmaxhealth.com/Headline/ebola-mutation-contagious-spread/2014/09/19/id/595742/ There is a real possibility that Ebola could mutate into a virus that is as spreadable as the flu, one of the nation’s top Ebola researchers tells Newsmax Health. “I don’t want to be an alarmist, but the possibility of Ebola
becoming an airborne virus clearly has to be taken into account,” said
David Sanders, associate professor of biological sciences at Purdue
University.
"Ebola does share some of the characteristics of airborne viruses
like influenza and we should not disregard the possibility of it
evolving into something that could be transmitted in this way,” added
Sanders, whose work on Ebola led to his participation in the U.S.
Defense Threat Reduction Agency's Biological Weapons Proliferation
Prevention Program.
U.S. health officials have largely dismissed Ebola as posing a major threat inside American borders.
Testifying before a Congressional subcommittee this week, Dr.
Anthony Fauci, a top White House infectious disease advisor, said it was
very unlikely Ebola would mutate in a way that would make it
transmittable through the air like flu.
That’s “not something I would put at the very top of the radar screen,” he said.
But Sanders disagrees. “I want the facts to be clear. It’s
important that we not get the idea that this can’t happen,” he said,
adding, “When people say that it is impossible for this virus to mutate,
this is simply not true.” comment: Experts - not me - are arguing about this. There still is no clear absolute and proven truth either way. It was able to spread from one species to another through the venilatiion system. How airborne do you need it to be? The most important fact of any of this is whether it even needs to be airborne to create a Pandemic which will kill 52% of the people who get it. At that point it won't matter. Does Ebola have enough horsepower to get out of West Africa? Why are people getting it that haven't touched anything and are washing their hands with bleach? Thank you all for taking the time to post on this thread and share thoughts, opinions, and facts. No one wants this to be airborne but with more mutations - it could become so. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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CRS, DrPH
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Posted: October 05 2014 at 12:36am |
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Exactly! Even though that chunk o' snot went flyin' through the air, it does NOT represent airborne transmission!These are very precise medical terms. "Airborne" in medicine refers to droplet nuclei which float for hours, that snot would fall to the floor in seconds. Just 'cause something flies through the air does not make it an airborne pathogen. THIS is the portal of entry for Ebola into the human body, not the nasal passages/lungs! Think about it!  |
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Medclinician2013
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Posted: October 05 2014 at 12:50am |
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Exactly! Even though that chunk o' snot went flyin' through the air, it does NOT represent airborne transmission!These are very precise medical terms. "Airborne" in medicine refers to droplet nuclei which float for hours, that snot would fall to the floor in seconds. Just 'cause something flies through the air does not make it an airborne pathogen. THIS is the portal of entry for Ebola into the human body, not the nasal passages/lungs! Think about it!
..... First, I think this is a good debate but we need to clarify a few terms here.
An aerosol can be defined as a system of solid or liquid particles suspended in air or other gaseous environment. Aerosols vary in size and composition, they can be naturally or manmade generated, and thus there are a wide range of them, from flame synthesized nanoparticles and nanomaterials (good aerosols), with fundamentally new properties and functions because of their small size (<100 nm) to airborne particulate matter resulted from the industrial production of nanomaterials, and viruses that have a negative effect in visibility and human health (bad aerosols). Now - can Ebola be passed through the air - i.e. airborne? The text reportedly refers to a 2012
scientific study which indicated that the Ebola virus “could” be
transmitted via air between different species. “Researchers from the
Canadian Food Inspection Agency and the country’s Public Health Agency
have shown that pigs infected with this form of Ebola can pass the
disease on to macaques without any direct contact between the species,”
according to BBC News. question: Was this airborne? It would appear so. once again: the text stated, “airborne spread among humans is strongly suspected, although it has not yet been conclusively demonstrated.” comment: so this is a lot more than diagrams of droplets and absolute statements. These are doctors and top researchers in the field and they feel it is reasonable to be concerned it will become airborne. Apparently Michael thinks so - who was posting at the same time I was predicting the last Pandemic... An article by Scientific American. Could Ebola go airborne? That’s the fear set off last week by a New York Times op-ed entitled “What We’re Afraid to Say about Ebola” from Michael Osterholm, director of the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Although clinicians readily agree that the Ebola virus leaps from one person to the next via close contact with blood and other bodily fluids, Osterholm warned that the risk of airborne transmission is “real” and “until we consider it, the world will not be prepared to do what is necessary to end the epidemic.” This being the case, precautions should be used at all ERs as if it is airborne. People who are coughing should be given masks. That doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out. A study in the journal Science, released last week, shows that the Ebola strain spreading across Western Africa has undergone a surprisingly high amount of genetic drift during the current outbreak. Experts say the mutations could eventually make the virus harder to diagnose and perhaps treat with a new therapeutic, should one come along. In yesterday’s Wall Street Journal, I wrote that in response to the crisis, the Obama administration has stressed that the disease is unlikely to spread inside America. We will certainly see cases diagnosed here, and perhaps even experience some isolated clusters of disease. For now, though, the administration’s assurances are generally correct: Health-care workers in advanced Western nations maintain infection controls that can curtail the spread of non-airborne diseases like Ebola. But our relative comfort in the U.S. is based on our belief that our public health tools could easily contain a virus spread only through direct contact. That would change radically if Ebola were to alter its mode of spread. We know the virus is mutating. Could it adapt in a way that makes it airborne? When a viral infection becomes “airborne,” like ordinary influenza, it means that discharged microbes remain suspended in the air for long periods of time. Generally speaking, this is what is meant by “airborne transmission.” In this case, the organisms must be capable of surviving for long periods of time outside the body and must be resistant to drying. Airborne transmission allows organisms to enter the upper and lower respiratory tracts.conclusion: I would assume the doctors and agencies who have stated this could become airborne or has in the past possibly been airborne know their definitions. What happens in the next 90 days will tell us. No matter what science says is possible or impossible, we may find the virus may play by a whole different set of rules than is dreamt of in our current medical philosophy. Medclinician |
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Medclinician - not if but when - original
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jacksdad
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Posted: October 05 2014 at 12:54am |
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Makes sense to me, Chuck. Droplet transmission that infects via mucous membranes like the conjuctiva should really be classed as contact transmission.
I agree with arirish - if this was airborne in any meaningful way, it wouldn't be spreading as it has until now. |
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"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary. |
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arirish
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Posted: October 05 2014 at 1:18am |
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Med- I am not now nor will I ever say this could not become airborne, all things in nature are possible, but I don't believe it is truly airborne at present! Airborne viruses spread to millions in weeks not months and this has been around almost a year! Hemorrhagic fevers are scary and this one has lasted much longer than most! Hopefully the world will get off their asses and do something sooner than later and if the fear of it going air borne expedites the response, so much the better! I believe what we need now at AFT is less speculation and more facts! Keep up the good work! ArIrish
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jacksdad wrote: