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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic.

Ebola will NOT go airborne

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Kilt2 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ebola will NOT go airborne
    Posted: September 18 2014 at 7:59pm
well its highly unlikely and we should not worry about that.

Its just not that sort of bug.

Its possible - but it has to make a lot of changes.

So don't worry.

Or - worry about the flu.

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/09/fact-or-fiction-the-ebola-virus-will-go-airborne/


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2014 at 11:13pm
No virus has ever changed it's mode of transmission that dramatically - from bloodborne to respiratory. It's incredibly unlikely, and as Kilt mentioned, would require a huge number of genetic changes.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:05am

     ********** IMPORTANT UPDATE **********




CIDRAP – Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy suggest respirators for all Ebola healthcare workers – aerosol transmissibility of virus in question

http://theextinctionprotocol.wordpress.com/2014/09/19/cidrap-center-for-infectious-disease-research-and-policy-suggest-respirators-for-all-ebola-healthcare-workers-aerosol-transmissibility-of-virus-in-question/


"Unclear modes of transmission. We believe there is scientific and epidemiologic evidence that Ebola virus has the potential to be transmitted via infectious aerosol particles both near and at a distance from infected patients, which means that healthcare workers should be wearing respirators, not facemasks"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:12am
I think it doesn't need to go through any fundamental changes because it is already transmissible in varying degrees via all the modes, airborne of sorts being the lesser but still viably there under limited circumstances. It is a true super bug.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 10:17am
And as we all saw on Discovery, the worm shaped viron actually squirmed around just like a worn. That feature alone indicates something monumental to me. It has the ability to burrow.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 12:52pm


US ARMY Says EBOLA = FLU in Airborne Stability, Needs Winter Weather To Go Airborne

http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2014/09/us-army-says-ebola-flu-in-airborne.html


http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2014/09/us-army-says-ebola-flu-in-airborne.html




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 1:46pm
Flu makes you sneeze. Ebola doesn't (in pigs it does - which goes a long way toward explaining how Reston spread to monkeys caged a whopping 8 inches away). Respiratory transmission doesn't amount to much if a virus can't get out of it's victim's airway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 2:06pm

when they work with ebola in the lab

its always in a level 4


now they are telling docs and nurses

that a gown,gloves and a N95 mask is all you need ?


really ?

REALLY???


in a front line situation

you are exposed to a whole lot more virus than you are in a lab

people are actively bleeding from every orifice

virus is EVERYWHERE

something is terribly terribly wrong with what we are being told


let the CDC types just wear a gown gloves and a mask in the lab

betcha they wouldn't even think of it


CDC’s “Lesser Of Evils” Double Standard On Health Care Worker Protection Indicates They Expect a Large Ebola Outbreak In USA

http://pissinontheroses.blogspot.com/2014/08/cdcs-lesser-of-evils-double-standard-on.html

“Prior to the outbreak, Ebola Biosafey Level 4 [BSL-4] regulations limited treatment of Ebola patients to only 22 hospital beds across the country which had the required BSL-4 treatment rooms and ‘space suits’.”

but now they’re telling doctors and nurses

“”Barbara Russell:…. I had that concern about that double standard. It’s very hard to convince emergency room staff and others that we just have to wear a gown, and gloves and mask.”



CIDRAP is being a whole lot more responsible than the CDC is on this


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 2:26pm
I don't know how much of that is from Fort Detrick and how much is opinion. It is 15 years old though and would be chillingly prophetic if we found a coinfectee in cooler hemisphere sneezing out cozy and viable Ebola/flu all over. In that sence it sounds logical to me that that could hold water. My big question is why the hell isn't someone doing extensive testing on monkeys in our hemisphere with Ebola alone and with coinfection Ebola/flu in a setting simulating nature as closely as possible so we know what we're really up against. Is that really a quarter mile wide meteor heading directly for earth or just a bug on the lens? If you're right and any form of flu like transmissibility is a no-go then you'll never hear the end of kudos from me but if you're wrong then you're riding in the back with the dogs however darlings they may be. Lol
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 6:31pm
I'm the dog whisperer - I'll be fine.
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Elver Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 7:25pm
"EBOV infection in swine affects mainly respiratory tract, implicating a potential for airborne transmission of ZEBOV2, 6. Contact exposure is considered to be the most important route of infection with EBOV in primates7, although there are reports suggesting or suspecting aerosol transmission of EBOV from NHP to NHP" NHP = non human primate

http://www.nature.com/srep/2012/121115/srep00811/full/srep00811.html
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2014 at 9:11pm
Some colleagues of mine wrote this article, it is very compelling because they argue that airborne be damned, when the bug is aerosolized, it still can get into you easily!

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/09/commentary-health-workers-need-optimal-respiratory-protection-ebola

"The current paradigm also assumes that only "small" particles (less than 5 micrometers [mcm]) can be inhaled and deposited in the respiratory tract. This is not true. Particles as large as 100 mcm (and perhaps even larger) can be inhaled into the mouth and nose. Larger particles are deposited in the nasal passages, pharynx, and upper regions of the lungs, while smaller particles are more likely to deposit in the lower, alveolar regions. And for many pathogens, infection is possible regardless of the particle size or deposition site."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 1:25am
Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

And for many pathogens, infection is possible regardless of the particle size or deposition site."
Ebola only needs 1 virus particle to infect a host. Just one! I have never heard of another virus so contagious. 

I have never fallen for the "airborne" hype.  Like Jacksdad (who has only ever spoken sense so far), I could see the errors in the Reston experiments. 

But add what Chuck (whose science I do respect) just said to the amazing stickiness and wormlike tunneling of the ebola virion.  Now take that pathogen-directly-from-hell and give it to pigs, hay fever sufferers or co infect a host with flu or a low grade sinus infection.

Hey presto!  A non airborne, airborne virus.

I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT AND NOW I BELIEVE!  No, not in angels and stuff, but in a microscopic demon who needs no wings.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 5:31am


Top Expert: Ebola Turning Airborne is “Not Far-Fetched”


http://www.thedailysheeple.com/top-expert-ebola-turning-airborne-is-not-far-fetched_092014


"Since we are facing a “hyper-evolution” of the virus he sees as unprecedented, it has already obtained “trillions of throws of the genetic dice,” Osterholm emphasizes.

The virus’s “hyper-evolution” may result in a new airborne form of Ebola, which would swiftly spread across the globe. “Infections could spread quickly to every part of the globe, as the H1N1 influenza virus did in 2009, after its birth in Mexico,” writes the scientist."


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 9:45am
In the ebola forum I posted a detail from reports that viral load needed to be high to catch Ebola via a sneeze. I stated that it was according to experts (thus not myself).
It was truthful (in that I was citing), but it wasn't the whole truth.
There was a lot that should have been said in that post, that I kept to myself because it was still being debated (transmission means, 1-10 viral load, etc.). But in that particular post my personal opinions would not have been helpful.

In the meantime, much has changed in recent days.
Reputable experts have published their arguments. Among many coming forward:

 http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/09/commentary-health-workers-need-optimal-respiratory-protection-ebola 

I had a short discussion with Lisa Brosseau about transmission a few weeks ago, and I was pleased to see she had published this.

The CDC is slowly updating their SitRep pdfs to include an evolving understanding of Ebola's transmission means.

However, I find it deeply disturbing that some scientists are still touting the danger of an '"unlikely mutation" causing Ebola to "become airborne" and rampaging around the globe.
Ebola is already 'limited airborne', and as more people realize this there is going to be mass hysteria - because they've been told it would result in said rampage.
It (doesn't need to mutate) will result in nothing different from what we have right now.

Sadly, what we have now is something much worse than it had to be.
In their efforts to quell public fear and downplay the crisis early on, the various administrations (with their publicly shaming 'gags') forced the position that Ebola was less dangerous than it is - lulling governments into false security. The resulting inactions, and lack of needed precautions, have given rise to needless HCW deaths - and the mother of all diseases having free reign over a population of millions.

I've never been the prepping type.... but I am about to become one.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hazelpad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:12am
They could swab the outer filters inside the masks of health care providers, see if live virons are even getting into that location in the first place.

In the videos " saviing Dr Brantley they cleatly say that both patients viral load at time of admission was 10 on a scale of 1 to 10. The Uk case was lower.

So they had in controlled conditions 2 viral filled patients, the data they will have gathered from the environment surrounding these patients will be invaluable in studying risk of exposure and transmission....and they will/should have gathered data. Particle counts in the room, settle plates, every body fluid would have been checked, as would samples from any sneezes, and swabs from used protection suits, just to identify any particular danger zones.

So it may be able to reach the resp tract however I agree with others that this does not mean it is true airborne.

As I previously posted to become a true airborne pathogen would the virus not have to change tissue tropism and be able to infect the upper airways, i.e. the respiratory epithelium. I thought it was confined to entering immune cells such was monocytes and macrophages, and endothelium cells. It is well known monocytes and dendritic cells in the airways are very unique from other locations. They are at different differential stages and express many different surface molecules than those present in other mucosal and systemic surfaces.

Just my thoughts

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:14am
Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Some colleagues of mine wrote this article, it is very compelling because they argue that airborne be damned, when the bug is aerosolized, it still can get into you easily!

http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/09/commentary-health-workers-need-optimal-respiratory-protection-ebola

"The current paradigm also assumes that only "small" particles (less than
5 micrometers [mcm]) can be inhaled and deposited in the respiratory
tract. This is not true. Particles as large as 100 mcm (and perhaps even
larger) can be inhaled into the mouth and nose. Larger particles are
deposited in the nasal passages, pharynx, and upper regions of the
lungs, while smaller particles are more likely to deposit in the lower,
alveolar regions. And for many pathogens, infection is possible
regardless of the particle size or deposition site."



One of the most important posts since the beginning of this debate. This article is an absolute must read by all AFT and EI members! These guys are not "shade-tree mechanics". If you go back and read through many of my posts, much of what I have discussed I'm my own amature words is substantiated in this one article. You can now no longer be a credible debatuer of this subject without having first read this article. Thank you Chuck for sharing this.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:28am
Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

In the ebola forum I posted a detail from reports that viral load needed to be high to catch Ebola via a sneeze. I stated that it was according to experts (thus not myself).
It was truthful (in that I was citing), but it wasn't the whole truth.
There was a lot that should have been said in that post, that I kept to myself because it was still being debated (transmission means, 1-10 viral load, etc.). But in that particular post my personal opinions would not have been helpful.

In the meantime, much has changed in recent days.
Reputable experts have published their arguments. Among many coming forward:

 http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2014/09/commentary-health-workers-need-optimal-respiratory-protection-ebola 

I had a short discussion with Lisa Brosseau about transmission a few weeks ago, and I was pleased to see she had published this.

The CDC is slowly updating their SitRep pdfs to include an evolving understanding of Ebola's transmission means.

However, I find it deeply disturbing that some scientists are still touting the danger of an '"unlikely mutation" causing Ebola to "become airborne" and rampaging around the globe.
Ebola is already 'limited airborne', and as more people realize this there is going to be mass hysteria - because they've been told it would result in said rampage.
It (doesn't need to mutate) will result in nothing different from what we have right now.

Sadly, what we have now is something much worse than it had to be.
In their efforts to quell public fear and downplay the crisis early on, the various administrations (with their publicly shaming 'gags') forced the position that Ebola was less dangerous than it is - lulling governments into false security. The resulting inactions, and lack of needed precautions, have given rise to needless HCW deaths - and the mother of all diseases having free reign over a population of millions.

I've never been the prepping type.... but I am about to become one.



Welcome over here as they say, to the dark side, Germ Nerdier ( ). I understand your feelings on the threat and your family situation up there. Over here you will find a wealth of preparedness information and many many more friendly and helpful people though you seem to be quite apt in figuring out much on your own. Welcome.
"And then there were none."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:30am
Same article :)

I agree it is a must-read.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Germ Nerdier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2014 at 10:31am
The dark side LOL!
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