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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Now tracking the Aussie Flu.

Fish meds for humans

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jacksdad View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 28 2013 at 12:36pm
  There was an AFT thread earlier this week where non prescription fish antibiotics were discussed as an additions to preps. I thought that it might be useful to further investigate it in light of secondary bacterial pneumonia being increasingly implicated in the majority of deaths caused by flu pandemics and epidemics dating back to at least 1918. It seems that it might not be antivirals that will save you, but antibiotics.
  For those not familiar with the topic, it seems that many fish antibiotics are identical in every way to the human versions. They're made on the same production line but usually a good deal cheaper, and they're available either at pet stores or online. Amoxicillin, erythromycin, cipro - just about everything your doc can prescribe is available.
  The standard disclaimer applies - self diagnose and the consequences to you and your family are your responsibilty and not mine or AFT's. Make sure you know what you're doing, consult a healthcare professional where applicable, and know what the safe dosages are. To that end, purchase something like the "Sanford Guide to Antimicrobial Therapy" - new versions are pricey, but I just picked up a 2009 copy on Amazon for the princely sum of one cent plus shipping.
Many animal meds are the same as human versions, so those of you with a sympathetic vet might want to cultivate that relationship. Cat and dog meds are often prescription items though, while fish meds aren't and are readily available OTC.

*Albert - I'll leave it up to you whether this stays here or moves to the prepping section where it may be more appropriate.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote racer35 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2013 at 3:38pm
Do you by any chance know the otc names  of any of these fish antibiotics?  I have read up on them on a few other websites.  Seems they ate cheaper than prescribed meds.  Couldn't hurt having them in your firstaid bag.
 
 
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Armageddon Medicine is a good resource for WTSHTF medical advice



http://armageddonmedicine.net/?p=6490


self medication should be AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT


make sure none of the antibiotics will have an adverse affect

if taken with your other meds,either prescribed or over the counter

this includes herbal

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2013 at 4:27pm
I'm afraid I don't, racer - this is something I've known about for a while but not explored to any great degree. The recent thread got me thinking about it, especially as a few articles I've come across lately seem to indicate that many deaths from influenza are caused not by the virus, but secondary bacterial pneumonia.
I thought I'd put this out there and see what we can come up with as a group. I know it's been debated on other prepping/survivalist forums and the consensus seems to be that they're perfectly legitimate meds as long as they're used correctly.


Good advice, Satori and thanks for the link Thumbs Up
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2013 at 4:30pm

the Doom and Bloom site is also very informative concerning the use of fish antibiotics


 http://www.doomandbloom.net/antibiotics-2/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 28 2013 at 4:51pm
I saw that one - love the name LOL
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Here in New Zealand you can't get any animal antibiotics over the counter. You can't even buy antibiotic cream without a prescription so I'm having to look for alternatives.

I bought a book called "herbal antibiotics" by Stephen Harrod Buhner which is very helpful. It covers the problems of antibiotic resistant illnesses too. I know in Papua New Guinea they have a very real problems at the moment of antibiotic resistant tuberculosis which is spreading. 

The other book I found to be really good is "the herbal medicine-makers handbook" by James Green.

The only problem I can see with using herbal remedies is the preparation. Alot of these preparations can only be made when the plant is in flower, or berry or whatever and so you have quite a small window of opportunity if you want to make your own. In order to be able to act when illness strikes you would have to have everything ready in advance.

You can buy ready made tinctures but they are quite expensive. We are a low income family so I wanted to make my own. I had really problems buying 90% proof alcohol, in fact it was almost impossible except through the chemist at 2 litres for $150 !!!! So I bought a stove top still and have been making my own.

The actual making of tinctures is very easy and really enjoyable and thankfully they have a long shelf life if stored in a cool dark place. Last summer I made about 10 different ones and will do the same this summer. I've started a little cupboard just for herbal and homeopathic rememdies, and I store the relevant books in there as well.

Given the choice I would certainly carry a stock of standard antibiotics too, but as yet, I haven't found a way to do that. (I have tried mail order but they won't post them to NZ.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WildKarma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2013 at 12:25am
I have always wondered about animal meds and how much they differed from ours. I knew some livestock antibiotics are OTC and others are script only. I had no clue about fish and birds though. This is definitely worth looking into. Thanks!
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You're welcome, WildKarma.
Just found this article - I'll see what else I can dig up. Remember, if secondary bacterial infections are indeed the leading cause of death in pandemics rather than the virus itself, antibiotics might be one of your most useful preps, especially if H7N9 continues to develop resistance to Tamiflu.

http://www.doomandbloom.net/fish-antibiotics-in-a-collapse/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debbiencusa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2013 at 6:33pm
Large livestock like horses and cows are hard to convert to human dose, birds vary according to species from extremely large birds to extremely small. Fish you open the capsule and dissolve in the tank, they usually come in 250 mg or 500 mg. if you have small kids get some of the lessor dose. Mix with sterile water and some extract your child likes, if you have no refrigeration try to make it dose by dose which will not be easy but better then wasting it, if you have other kids who also will need it. Usually adults use the 500mg. you need to know that when you buy it. If you go cheap and buy the weaker type then you have to double the amount you take so it comes out the same.
 
Know of course what you and your family are allergic to, anti biotic can cause some serious life threatening allergic reactions. You can buy non penicillin stuff too, I believe it is metronazole  or close enough to that, that you will recognize it when you see it. It is also called Flaygl  sp know the side effects of all of these meds which are easy to look up and print for your med. cabinet.  For instance, metronazole or flaygl if you use any alcohol you can get so sick, Dr.s have said you wont die but wish you would, it causes extreme violent illness, some have said even cutting oneself shaving and then putting on after shave with alcohol will trigger the reaction.
 
Some anti biotic can turn the teeth a grey color. Make sure you have enough for the full ten day treatment.  Also in ordering you must think of a few other things, if one in the family gets sick, so will others so buy accordingly a bottle or two wont do. Another thing if we loose all infrastructure you may need anti biotic for cuts people used to die from them before anti biotic.
 
Also think about buying from more then one source, if all of a sudden orders begin to come in for a lot of antibiotic someone could get wise to non pet use. I am not sure it matters, but it may. Also check your expiration dates on it. I would never throw it away, you can make anti biotic salves with vasoline and dry expired anti biotic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2013 at 12:33pm
Originally posted by debbiencusa debbiencusa wrote:

Large livestock like horses and cows are hard to convert to human dose, birds vary according to species from extremely large birds to extremely small. Fish you open the capsule and dissolve in the tank, they usually come in 250 mg or 500 mg. if you have small kids get some of the lessor dose. Mix with sterile water and some extract your child likes, if you have no refrigeration try to make it dose by dose which will not be easy but better then wasting it, if you have other kids who also will need it. Usually adults use the 500mg. you need to know that when you buy it. If you go cheap and buy the weaker type then you have to double the amount you take so it comes out the same.
 
AAAHHHHHHHHHHHH NO! NONONONONO! I seriously almost facepalmed my head off my shoulders there.
 
250 mg of what? 500mg of what? Mix that with red koolaid? Really?!? Jonestown anyone?
 
If you took 250 mg's of Bactrim you'd likely not really do anything for your infection, but if you took 500 mg's of Doxycycline you could very easily *KILL* yourself. I shudder to think what might happen if you regularly took a 500 mg dose of Fluconazole! Probably cardiac arrest! Seriously, if someone's got a heart condition and took 500 mg's of Fluconazole, there is a good chance that they may very well die.
 
Are you a doctor or otherwise a medical practitioner? If not, *PLEASE* refrain from giving suggestions as to how much of *ANYTHING* people should take for whatever reason. If anyone has a question as to a dosage of a particular medicine, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE ask your doctor. Chances are that they'll be more than happy to explain to you how much of whatever they'd give for any possible infection.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

Also think about buying from more then one source, if all of a sudden orders begin to come in for a lot of antibiotic someone could get wise to non pet use. I am not sure it matters, but it may. Also check your expiration dates on it. I would never throw it away, you can make anti biotic salves with vasoline and dry expired anti biotic.
 
Most antibiotics should be discarded after they're expired. Sure some might be of some use, but chances are you'll just be making whatever bacteria you're trying to treat resistant.
 
In some cases the medicine becomes unstable or STRONGER! I suppose in an emergency situation you're taking a shot in the dark, but at the moment, that's really not a concern. If you're not going to use it, get rid of it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debbiencusa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2013 at 10:36pm
This was also part of what I wrote in that post which you failed to point out conveniently to make your case about my post. I am counting on the fact that MOST people can and do read the whole post on something this important about medication. It would make little sense for non readers to use this forum.
 
Know of course what you and your family are allergic to, anti biotic can cause some serious life threatening allergic reactions. You can buy non penicillin stuff too, I believe it is metronazole  or close enough to that, that you will recognize it when you see it. It is also called Flaygl  sp know the side effects of all of these meds which are easy to look up and print for your med. cabinet.  For instance, metronazole or flaygl if you use any alcohol you can get so sick, Dr.s have said you wont die but wish you would, it causes extreme violent illness, some have said even cutting oneself shaving and then putting on after shave with alcohol will trigger the reaction.
 
 
As I first pointed out, anti biotic can and does cause some serious life threatening reactions, another one, you did not mention is seizures. We are of course discussing here survival situations, we are in a situation in fact multiple situations that could get bad fast. Not everyone will have time to chat with doc before they purchase their meds, in addition I have found far too many MD only give advise or even treat someone with the cash in hand to pay for their services or they could not obviously care less if you live or die. Obvious because without money to pay you are denied service. Often Dr.s do not discuss dosing topics over a wide range of drugs bc they suspect you are attempting to treat yourself and are vehemently opposed to that, as well they should be. This however is not about day to day living but survival wo the luxury of the wisdom of a MD. AS was pointed out you should go to medical websites that contain drug information from all possible known side effects to dosing to whether or not to eat or take on a empty stomach and how to store. These sites are so plentiful on the internet that a blind person could find them. Only the most idiotic of people would blindly purchase anti biotic or any other medication and not know and have in hard copy as was said and put right with the medication so even a idiot can not use without reading the instructions on how to use. I have a much higher opinion of my fellow forum mates then to think that they are ignorant.  Do not be so condescending as to alter my words and imply that I ever said children should take medication with kool aid, it is with extracts aka flavoring making it more palatable to the child so that they will actually take the medication and not spit it back at you. Someone is drinking something a whole lot stronger then kool aid if they think that throwing away out of date medication in a world where no medication is even made any longer is a wise idea. You go right ahead and throw it away, do your neighbors the favor of letting them know, do you plan to throw away out of date bottled water alsoLOL 
 
The odds of someone creating any more super bugs then already exist with a complete failure of infrastructure is slim to none by the use of Vaseline mixed with the contents of anti biotic, cutting ones self while chopping wood and needing a anti biotic cream that may help with healing is a bit more likely but again, it is a free world, you go ahead and toss out those  meds, but trust me, people will get bad infections minus running water and doing chores they have never done before they will want and need the anti biotic. Without MD we will all be forced to do many things we pray we will never have to do. Luckily there are several very wise, talented and caring MD who have seen that need and have published how to manuals for just such a purpose. I hope that people will indeed take the time while they have it to find the meds and down load the information they need to hard copy before purchase. BTW none of the meds you mentioned are for sale on those sites. I am not a MD nor do I pretend to be which is why I wrote of the dangers, negative side effects and how to circumvent them to the extent you can. I am also not a lawyer but I am a gambler enough to bet that meds that the public is allowed to purchase more then likely wont cause cardiac arrest due to the fact that some idiot would ingest them, claim it was a accident and sue the selling company into bankruptcy, just a hunch. I could be wrong but I believe this site is for tough individualists who do not scare easy, are willing to make educated choices and survive the best they can. I wont be intimidated by anyone who uses child like bullying tactics to try to make other posters who are trying to help others look foolish. Turn the mirror back at yourself and see if you could not have made your points without having to make it personal. The best way to shut down a valuable site where people band together to share what they know is to disrupt it by taunting and ask what is the end goal of that behavior.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2013 at 7:51am
Originally posted by debbiencusa debbiencusa wrote:

This was also part of what I wrote in that post which you failed to point out conveniently to make your case about my post. I am counting on the fact that MOST people can and do read the whole post on something this important about medication. It would make little sense for non readers to use this forum.
 
No, you talked about drug interactions, and said that Adults can use 500 mg's and kids 250. You are wrong. As little as 1mg of some medications that you can easily get at a fish medicine store can put you into cardiac arrest.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

We are of course discussing here survival situations, we are in a situation in fact multiple situations that could get bad fast.
 
We are indeed talking survival situations, so DON'T GIVE ADVICE THAT COULD WELL KILL SOMEONE BEFORE THEY'RE ABLE TO SURVIVE!
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

Not everyone will have time to chat with doc before they purchase their meds, in addition I have found far too many MD only give advise or even treat someone with the cash in hand to pay for their services or they could not obviously care less if you live or die.
 
Really? So instead we should just rely on "This might or might not work at this given dosage" as the rule for taking potentially deadly medication? Are you serious or screwing around? If dealing with YOUR doctor is that weird, you might need to see another doc. Furthermore, you should be networking now and talk to other medical professionals about it.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

Often Dr.s do not discuss dosing topics over a wide range of drugs bc they suspect you are attempting to treat yourself and are vehemently opposed to that, as well they should be.This however is not about day to day living but survival wo the luxury of the wisdom of a MD.
 
No scheiss, because people will take something they have no idea at what dose and potentially kill themselves. So should we not talk to the doctors about this now? Seriously, which is it?
 
If you need info, talk to a doctor or other med pro now. That way you don't have to wonder how much of whatever you're going to take, and whether or not what you have looks like a fungal or bacterial infection.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

<BLATHER> 
 
Sorry, that paragraph was backtracking crap, so it gets deleted.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

BTW none of the meds you mentioned are for sale on those sites.
 
Yes they are. Just because you don't know where to get it, does not mean that it's impossible to get... Cheaply.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

I am not a MD nor do I pretend to be which is why I wrote of the dangers, negative side effects and how to circumvent them to the extent you can.
 
No, you didn't. You smattered something about interactions and then said that adults can take 500 mg's and kids 250, though of what medication you left to the winds, and then you said that you can mix it with something that tastes good, and that screamed "JONESTOWN" to me.
 
I am *WELL* aware that you're neither a doctor, nor a lawyer, because if you'd been either you wouldn't have given that advice. Do you see me giving advice on this topic? No you don't, and I obviously and absolutely have more medical experience than you do. (Police officer/EMT for ten years)  I don't disagree with Flumom or Penham about gardening or child care. They're my go to people in fact. My advice to you: Stay in your lane and don't give out info on something you're ignorant about.
 
Originally posted by Debbie Debbie wrote:

I wont be intimidated by anyone who uses child like bullying tactics to try to make other posters who are trying to help others look foolish. Turn the mirror back at yourself and see if you could not have made your points without having to make it personal. The best way to shut down a valuable site where people band together to share what they know is to disrupt it by taunting and ask what is the end goal of that behavior.
 
I didn't make it personal, nor did I try to intimidate you, you said something outrageously stupid Because.You.Dont.Know.What.You're.Talking.About. so I corrected you. I attacked your ideas, if you're so attached to that level of foolishness I truly feel sorry for you.
 
What did you want me to say? Oh, Debbie, it's okay, maybe taking a megadose of an antibiotic that you don't know the proper dosage of might not be a good idea because you'll go to be with kittens and puppies and rivers of chocolate and children with gumdrop smiles?
 
If someone says something at the level that you did up there, you need to be slapped down immediately and hard so people don't take your advice. For all intents and purposes, I could have edited your post and chastised you by saying that you shouldn't be giving medical advice.
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As TG pointed out, we're talking about potentially dangerous medications here and stockpiling and administering them should only be considered for a SHTF situation when no other source is available, and there's nobody available either in person or by phone that can tell you how to take them, how much and how often, side effects to look for, and possible interactions. Don't even think about getting them if you don't have some idea of the dosages and uses - different bacteria respond to different antibiotics and you need to know which, or at best it'll do absolutely no good, and at worst someone gets really sick or dies of a runaway infection while you're giving them the wrong med. Do your research before you even think about buying anything. There's a reason you go to a doctor and then get the little speech from the pharmacist. Make sure you or your loved ones know if they're allergic or sensitive to any medications, even in normal situations. I had a friend that found out that he should never take penicillin after he blew up like the Jet Puffed marshmallow man, and I'm deathly allergic to vicodin and found out accidentally when I popped half of one that my wife had been prescribed. Within minutes I had a pulse rate of 160+, hyperventilation, sweating, feeling of impending doom, etc. Luckily I found out before a well meaning doctor had me taking two every four hours (although the second dose would likely have been academic) and it's the first thing I tell doctors, even when they have my medical record in front of them. Since then I've come to find out that I can't take any pain killers stronger than Tylenol or Motrin, and even OTC Aleve shuts my kidneys down after the first dose - temporarily fortunately. Just separated my shoulder completely and had to get by on ibuprophen Pinch
Animal meds (cat, dog, horse, etc) often have other things added and that's why I purposely didn't include them in the title of the thread. Fish antibiotics are more often than not repackaged human meds since fish are extremely sensitive to chemicals and additives, but you should always check the meds to ensure you've got the right one - the pills will have a distinctive color, shape, and identifying marks that you can cross reference online to be 100% sure.
Don't take this thread lightly - self prescribed meds are not for every day situations, and if you're not a doctor you have no place using them under those circumstances.
TG - you're back LOL
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Get a copy of Nurse's Drug Guide to go with your antibiotics. That will at least give you the recommended dosages for both adults and children. 

And antibiotics last a lot longer than the expiration date.

Studies performed by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) revealed that 90% of medications tested were perfectly fine to use 8-to-15 years after the expiration date. There was apparently no danger in the grand majority of cases. The FDA tested more than 100 medications, both prescription and non-prescription....  tetracycline antibiotics of various names being the exception as they may become toxic after expiration date.
http://survivalblog.com/ - http://survivalblog.com/ 

Here is another good source of information about expiration dates of antibiotics.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph0LtznsDH8 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ph0LtznsDH8
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2013 at 10:58am
There's some debate about tetracycline - apparently they reformulated it so it would last longer, but personally I wouldn't want to take the chance and risk using it past the expiration date. Be safe and toss it.
Good advice on the Nurses Guide - as I mentioned in my first post I have a copy of "Sanfords guide to antimicrobial therapy" on it's way. Once it arrives I'll consider what I might need, and only after a lot of research to ensure I have all bases covered and I'm using meds I know my family have already taken would I consider buying anything.
Due diligence, people.
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Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

There's some debate about tetracycline - apparently they reformulated it so it would last longer, but personally I wouldn't want to take the chance and risk using it past the expiration date. Be safe and toss it.
Good advice on the Nurses Guide - as I mentioned in my first post I have a copy of "Sanfords guide to antimicrobial therapy" on it's way. Once it arrives I'll consider what I might need, and only after a lot of research to ensure I have all bases covered and I'm using meds I know my family have already taken would I consider buying anything.
Due diligence, people.
 
People should also consider the fact that antibiotics post SHTF should be used only when they are absolutely needed. They should not be used for minor or non life threatening ailments or conditions that given time will clear up on their own for the simple fact that supply of these various antibiotic drugs may well be only what you have on hand, and resupply may be impossible.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2013 at 11:59am
Very true. And the possibility of antibiotic resistant bacteria shouldn't be ignored if people start dosing themselves irresponsibly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2013 at 10:03pm
Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

and I'm deathly allergic to vicodin and found out accidentally when I popped half of one that my wife had been prescribed. Within minutes I had a pulse rate of 160+, hyperventilation, sweating, feeling of impending doom, etc. Luckily I found out before a well meaning doctor had me taking two every four hours (although the second dose would likely have been academic) and it's the first thing I tell doctors, even when they have my medical record in front of them. Since then I've come to find out that I can't take any pain killers stronger than Tylenol or Motrin, and even OTC Aleve shuts my kidneys down after the first dose - temporarily fortunately. Just separated my shoulder completely and had to get by on ibuprophen Pinch


Never left, I was letting everyone have a good time and was doing more reading that posting until I saw the bad advice. Debbie has some great ideas on a lot of things, but this time around... well... what can I say.

Anyways, are you allergic to all opioid painkillers? You might want to keep a medical alert wristchain with that information on it, on you. When I broke my leg (Tib, Fib, Malleolis *OFF* the Tib an dislocated my ankle) they didn't even ask about allergies, just nailed me with Morphine and I wasn't really in any pain just really uncomfortable.

I found out that I am the opposite of you on the opioids, and am tolerant. The paramedic gave me the first shot, and asked if that made things more comfortable, I said no, and he hit me again. We continued talking and after about five minutes enroute to the hospital, he said he couldn't believe we were still having a conversation because I should be on the moon!

When I got back, they gave me vicodin, which just made me irritable, then went with the percocet. Neither did anything for pain, so I had to go with tylenol. Everyone else I've talked to says that one percocet and they're on an adventure through happyland!

One thing: I don't know how old you are, but try to avoid ibuprofen if you can. The stuff stops absorption of calcium in your bones. People who routinely use it seem to have a higher incidence of osteoporosis and joint failure/arthritis. When I had the broken bone the doctors specifically forbade me from using any ibuprofen product because they said it would slow down the healing process. 

Food for thought.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 01 2013 at 10:53pm
Fifty years old with the commonsense of someone much younger apparently. Separated the shoulder tackling a young guy who was taking off on my son's bike. I chased him down on foot and got the bike back, but I knew as soon as I got up I knew that I had a grade 3 separation because I managed to do the same thing to the other shoulder ten years ago coming off a mountain bike. It's a very distinctive feeling to say the least. I knew I had a minute or so before the pain kicked in, so I pretended I was fine and grabbed the bike, returned his boombox in a lot more pieces than when he'd hung it on the handlebars, and let him know what I'd do to him if he didn't get the hell out of there. Luckily he took off, but moving the bike with the bones grinding in my shoulder was a blast, but it was my kid's Christmas present and he wasn't getting it without a fight. Luckily I had a good surgeon last time, and he's more than happy to fix me up again. I guess I should count myself lucky I only have two shoulders.
I've never taken morphine - they offered it to me in the ER, but with my history I declined. I'm not taking huge doses of ibuprofen - I maxed out initially at about 1200-1600mg a day and lately it's a lot less than that, if I take any at all. It's my kidneys I worry about more than anything because the stuff's nephrotoxic. Tylenol works but not as well. The vicodin reaction was most likely codeine, so anything with that is out. Tramadol makes me more nauseated than any hangover I've ever had, and as I mentioned earlier anything with naproxen shuts down my kidneys with the first dose. The only thing that ever worked was darvocet, but it was pulled from the market a few years ago because it caused fatal arrhythmias in some people. I'm not looking forward to the first few days following the surgery because they'll open up my shoulder from front to back, shorten the collar bone and reattach a ligament into the cut end by drilling and suturing, then suture the shoulder blade to the collar bone. Fun stuff, and only OTC pain meds on the menu  Stern Smile
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