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CCW or firearms license

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    Posted: January 01 2007 at 7:08pm
I have a Georgia firearm license. I know a lot of you do not agree or could care less. I feel more comfortable being legal. In this state the said licsense is the same as a CCW. I am very restricted as to where I can carry the weapon. I am not required by law to state that I am packing. If a problem came up, I would tell the officer up front that I was packing and that I have a permit. I can carry my weapon covered or uncovered with this licsense, as long as I follow the law.
I fish a good bit. Most of the time I am in the boonies. This was the original reason for obtaining the licsense.
 
If thshtf, in the early stages, I am legal. In the middle stages, I am legal.
After that, who cares.
 
Any thoughts?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2007 at 8:12pm
tigger, I have a license also and it is good in reciprocal states. However, my gun is too big and too heavy. Therefore I don't carry it as much as I should. My oldest son is going to go with me to help get one I can wear at my back soon. Good luck.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2007 at 9:50pm
Tigger if you are going to carry you should be legal. If things go south who cares. Till then stay legal.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 4:59am
Tigger,

I would recommend, if not a legal requirement in GA, that if you get pulled over, not to inform the Officer that you have a weapon with you. Unless of course there is a chance that he can see it or you are going to be searched. It just opens a can of worms that doesn't need to be opened. he must then verify that you are legal to carry it and will be 'more alert' as you reach for your wallet. Depending on the cop, you may get a bunch of questions for no other reason than you offered the fact that you are armed.

If you are going to tell him, I recommend something like this, with your hands on the steering wheel palms open and up and the keys out of the ignition and up on the dash where he can see them, with the dome light on if dark:' Officer before I retrieve my wallet i just want you to be aware for your safety and mine that I have a Concealed Weapon permit and I am currently in possession of my weapon on my right hip. I don't feel comfortable getting my wallet and exposing my weapon without you knowing about it."

For ultra concealment see this link. I have no affiliation with this company.


    A Better Holster
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote In_KY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 6:05am
Isn't it true that if the car is in your name, when they call the plate in before your stopped, it will come back that you have a cdw license? They know everything else about you, i would imagine that  too. I've had mine for ten years and have been pulled over a couple times, but they have never asked about any weapons, i assumed they already knew...


I picked up a hitch hiker one time and never really thought about it until after the fact, but the guy probably thought i was the nut. I was in a truck with a BIG hunting knife lying on the floor without a sheath, and my pants were a little short with my ankle holster showing somewhat while sitting.  I took him where  he wanted to go, and this stuff dawned on me later..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 8:08am
Here in Arkansas, if your caught with a concealed weapon, first time is a $500 fine and loss of weapon, second time is $1000 and loss of weapon. Third time is $1500 (I think) and loss of weapon and loss of the right to ever get a CCW.
My gripe is, once you have to get a permit to own a weapon (or carry) it is no longer a constutitional right, but is now a privilage they can revoke at any time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VtDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 9:25am
Depending on the cop, you may get a bunch of questions for no other reason than you offered the fact that you are armed

More than that, I'd bet that in many cases the weapon would be (temporarily, I'd hope) taken from your control, and you might be cuffed.  I would agree that you shouldn't ordinarily volunteer the info unless in a situation like you describe, or unless required by law. 

Personally, I keep my sidearm stowed in the glove compartment or center console when in the car.  This is more comfortable, actually allows faster access than a strong-side hip carry position, and avoids the possible incidental exposure if stopped by law enforcement (just don't keep your registration in the same place).  However, some states that allow concealed carry on your person do not allow carrying a loaded firearm in your car (which makes zero sense).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote randyb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 9:53am
I've had a CWP since I was 21. For that matter, my wife, my brother, sister(s) in law, brother in law, and parents all have CWP as well.  As a matter of curtesy to an officer if he/she stops me I let them know I am armed and I/they can unload my weapon.  Since I keep a NRA sticker on my truck they generally know my politics with this.  Of ccourse my license plate is my HAM radio license and I keep a star of life on my truck since I am an EMT.  This has generally keep officers civil with me.   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 10:29am
You all have just made me re-think my habit of flipping off the guy who cut me off in traffic.  Smile
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The state I live in (Mo.) and the one I came from (La.) are both open carry states. That means that if you can legally own a firearm, you can strap it on like Roy Rogers and walk down the street. It's legal! When I was working as a LEO I never had a problem with a law abiding citizen having a firearm. Yes if I made a traffic stop, I disabled the weapon (unloaded it) and asked them not to reload it till I left.

I think you should tell the LEO you are a CCW. That said I must say that a lot of the younger officers give me doubt. I don't know whether it is a lack of training or just a attitude. SOME tend to forget that a person is innocent till proven guilty. You know how the officers are in your area. Act accordingly.

BUT above all remain legal. Some states require you to tell the LEO that you are carrying. Obey the law.

Also don't be stupid! I once stopped a man, and asked for his registration and proof of Ins. Before he open the glove box I ask if he had a gun in there. He told me NO. When he open the glove box there were not 1 but 2 guns in there! He came very close to dieing that night.

Thats my .02 cents worth.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 1:07pm
mach,
 
you make sense. you are probably right.
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Originally posted by VtDoc VtDoc wrote:

Depending on the cop, you may get a bunch of questions for no other reason than you offered the fact that you are armed





More than that, I'd bet that in many cases the weapon would be (temporarily, I'd hope) taken from your control, and you might be cuffed.  I would agree that you shouldn't ordinarily volunteer the info unless in a situation like you describe, or unless required by law. 


Personally, I keep my sidearm stowed in the glove compartment or center console when in the car.  This is more comfortable, actually allows faster access than a strong-side hip carry position, and avoids the possible incidental exposure if stopped by law enforcement (just don't keep your registration in the same place).  However, some states that allow concealed carry on your person do not allow carrying a loaded firearm in your car (which makes zero sense).


When I said questions, I assumed you would be cuffed for questioning :-) I always have my weapon on my person. period. If something happens, at least I know I can get to it. A strong side carry once you release the seatbelt is not bad. You have to release the seatbelt to face the threat anyway. tough to fight strapped it.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 3:10pm
I live in central Georgia and I know for a fact that it is legal to carry a
loaded hand gun in your car without a carry permit.  It is called fair
carry law.

I got pulled over by a cop in McDonough last summer and when he
asked all the usual questions about anything in the car I told him I
had a loaded 357 in my glove compartment.    He asked me to get
out and then he unloaded the gun.    After he did his search thing he
let me go and returned the gun and ammo in a seperate bag.

I do not know if recipricating states allow the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote digital Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 4:20pm
When you have been given the permission from your State to carry a concealed weapon, if the LEO wishes to take your weapon from you and unload it why doesnt he unload his as well. After all, you are both authorised by the State. You are both judged by the State to be competent and responsible people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 5:31pm
" if the LEO wishes to take your weapon from you and unload it why
doesnt he unload his as well "


I understand the reason for your question.  It is a whole other
Constitutional,  civil rights argument.

I was pulled over for a driving infraction.  So I guess he had a right
in that regard to question and unload my gun while checking out
my vehicle.

I was not about to argue with him as the cops down here don't put up
with that.   I was ticketed for the driving infraction.  But I got my gun
and ammo back.   Fair enough.

But your question is a good one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 8:22pm
Originally posted by digital digital wrote:

When you have been given the permission from your State to carry a concealed weapon, if the LEO wishes to take your weapon from you and unload it why doesnt he unload his as well. After all, you are both authorised by the State. You are both judged by the State to be competent and responsible people.


The answer to your question is responsibility. A LEO is the only member of our society other than the military that is under oath. A CCW is "authorize by the state" to carry a weapon, AND THAT IS ALL. The have NO enforcement responsibility at all. Nor do they take a "oath" to anything. Nor are they responsible to enforce any law or to protect anyone other than themselves.

This responsibility reason Most CCW laws dictate that a CCW inform the LEO that he is armed. Remember if you haven't done something wrong you wouldn't be under the scrutiny of the LEO in the first place!   
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 9:17pm
I am not,  nor have I ever been ,  a CCW or a Georgia licensed gun
owner.

I just like guns and bring them with me whenever I drive.
Sometimes I bring the 357 revolver,  sometimes the 40 cal Glock.

That was the reason for my post.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 9:59pm
Originally posted by Diode Diode wrote:

I am not,  nor have I ever been ,  a CCW or a Georgia licensed gunowner.I just like guns and bring them with me whenever I drive. Sometimes I bring the 357 revolver,  sometimes the 40 cal Glock.That was the reason for my post.


Diode, I'm a FIRM supporter of the 2nd amend. I'm glad you exercise you rights. I was explaining the difference between a LEO and a CCW to someone that doesn't live in the USA.

When citizens exercise their rights, and inform themselves on the laws of their area, keeps the police and the politicians honest!   
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2007 at 10:27pm
Wolf,

yes,  you are correct.    I did not realize I was responding to
someone from Australia where they have no gun rights what-so-ever.

Sad thing...............

Stay safe and keep posting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pheasant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 4:08am
a couple of comments.....first im firmly in the gun rights corner, when traveling in a vehicle without a cc permit.... you can not have your firearm loaded...in some states at least. and you must inform the officer upon being stopped of your possesion of them. folks this is a great thread, but the info given is NOT general it is and should be given as state specific.....we all need to be aware of our own state statutes or ask an officer. i only posted this because some good intentiond advice could cause someone some misery if not applied correctly
The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote digital Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 4:43am
Originally posted by wolfgang2000 wolfgang2000 wrote:

Originally posted by digital digital wrote:

When you have been given the permission from your State to carry a concealed weapon, if the LEO wishes to take your weapon from you and unload it why doesnt he unload his as well. After all, you are both authorised by the State. You are both judged by the State to be competent and responsible people.


The answer to your question is responsibility. A LEO is the only member of our society other than the military that is under oath. A CCW is "authorize by the state" to carry a weapon, AND THAT IS ALL. The have NO enforcement responsibility at all. Nor do they take a "oath" to anything. Nor are they responsible to enforce any law or to protect anyone other than themselves.

This responsibility reason Most CCW laws dictate that a CCW inform the LEO that he is armed. Remember if you haven't done something wrong you wouldn't be under the scrutiny of the LEO in the first place!   
    

    
I understand that a CCW permit only authorizes a person to carry a firearm and I understand that the person has no requirement to enforce the law.
I also understand that it is a sensible idea to inform the LEO that you have a "permit to carry" and a weapon. But if you are both authorised by the State to carry firearms, when you tell the LEO that you are carrying and have a permit and he checks that all is in order unless he has a reason to be suspicious of you, why should he feel the need to take your firearm off you and unload it, shoudnt he respect your "right to carry" and show you some respect as a citizen that is in full compliance with the law.

P.S. I am not being a smart arse here, I am trying to understand the culture (and law) of another country. Although our firearm laws here in Oz suck, this year, I will be buying nice .308 and .243 hunting rifles in stainless.
I have served in the military for nearly thirty years and have done two operational tours, so Im not a "newbie" when it comes to firearms. I also recognise that LEO have a difficult and dangerous job at times, and I am familiar with some procedures being carried out in the name of "officer safety"
I also recognise the right of the LEO to take your firearm if he has "just cause", even if you have a permit.
But everything else being equal when two people meet and thay are both authorised by the State to carry firearms why should one take the firearm off the other and unload it, unless there is a just reason.

    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 5:14am
Originally posted by digital digital wrote:

Originally posted by wolfgang2000 wolfgang2000 wrote:

Originally posted by digital digital wrote:

When you have been given the permission from your State to carry a concealed weapon, if the LEO wishes to take your weapon from you and unload it why doesnt he unload his as well. After all, you are both authorised by the State. You are both judged by the State to be competent and responsible people.


The answer to your question is responsibility. A LEO is the only member of our society other than the military that is under oath. A CCW is "authorize by the state" to carry a weapon, AND THAT IS ALL. The have NO enforcement responsibility at all. Nor do they take a "oath" to anything. Nor are they responsible to enforce any law or to protect anyone other than themselves.

This responsibility reason Most CCW laws dictate that a CCW inform the LEO that he is armed. Remember if you haven't done something wrong you wouldn't be under the scrutiny of the LEO in the first place!   
    

    
I understand that a CCW permit only authorizes a person to carry a firearm and I understand that the person has no requirement to enforce the law.
I also understand that it is a sensible idea to inform the LEO that you have a "permit to carry" and a weapon. But if you are both authorised by the State to carry firearms, when you tell the LEO that you are carrying and have a permit and he checks that all is in order unless he has a reason to be suspicious of you, why should he feel the need to take your firearm off you and unload it, shoudnt he respect your "right to carry" and show you some respect as a citizen that is in full compliance with the law.

P.S. I am not being a smart arse here, I am trying to understand the culture (and law) of another country. Although our firearm laws here in Oz suck, this year, I will be buying nice .308 and .243 hunting rifles in stainless.
I have served in the military for nearly thirty years and have done two operational tours, so Im not a "newbie" when it comes to firearms. I also recognise that LEO have a difficult and dangerous job at times, and I am familiar with some procedures being carried out in the name of "officer safety"
I also recognise the right of the LEO to take your firearm if he has "just cause", even if you have a permit.
But everything else being equal when two people meet and thay are both authorised by the State to carry firearms why should one take the firearm off the other and unload it, unless there is a just reason.

    
    


I think you answered your own question. The LEO has a scope of responsibility and jurisdiction of authority. You don't. the bottom line is because he can disarm you and he won't ever give up his weapon. you are not the only potential threat out there. he has a job to do and he doesn't know who you are. Just because your legal to carry doesn't mean you haven't decided to rob a bank today or steal a car or take pot shots at cops. When he pulls you over he has probable cause. you are already under suspicion. You are the closest most probable threat at the time. that's just the way it is.

I might add, not only are you not responsible for enforcing the laws, you are not allowed to enforce the laws, you have no authority to do so.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 5:17am
here is a good reseource for Concealed carry and gun laws by US state.


    packing.org
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 5:57am

 

Mach,

I’m not trying to get technical here but I grew up knowing that we had the right to enforce certain laws as citizens of this country and in some cases we even had the obligation to enforce the laws in the presence of a committed felony.  If this pandemic goes full bore we may even have to.

Citizens' Arrest

By David C. Grossack, Constitutional Attorney

Common Law Copyright © 1994
All Rights Reserved

Not long ago the politically correct Boston Globe noticed a "shocking" new trend. It seems as if some citizens of Massachusetts were so fed up with crime that they have begun to intervene in petty street crime afflicting the streets of our cities. Thieves and pickpockets in Massachusetts should exercise caution in where and how they ply their craft as the chances that vigilantes pummel them and drag them to the nearest cop are definitely on an upswing. While the Globe is shocked at this healthy trend, students of the law should note that both a statutory and common law basis for a certain degree of "vigilante behavior" is well founded. Indeed, in an era of lawlessness it is important that readers be advised as to their lawful right to protect their communities, loved ones and themselves by making lawful citizens' arrests. The purpose of this essay is to simply explain the law and the historical context of the citizen's arrest.

First, what is an arrest?

We can thank Black's Law Dictionary for a good definition: "The apprehending or detaining of a person in order to be forthcoming to answer an alleged or suspected crime." See Ex parte Sherwood, (29 Tex. App. 334, 15 S.W. 812).

Historically, in Anglo Saxon law in medieval England citizen's arrests were an important part of community law enforcement. Sheriffs encouraged and relied upon active participation by able bodied persons in the towns and villages of their jurisdiction. From this legacy originated the concept of the posse comitatus which is a part of the United States legal tradition as well as the English. In medieval England, the right of private persons to make arrests was virtually identical to the right of a sheriff and constable to do so. (See Inbau and Thompson, Criminal Procedure, The Foundation Press, Mineola, NY 1974.

A strong argument can be made that the right to make a citizen's arrest is a constitutionally protected right under the Ninth Amendment as its impact includes the individual's natural right to self preservation and the defense of the others. Indeed, the laws of citizens arrest appear to be predicated upon the effectiveness of the Second Amendment. Simply put, without firepower, people are less likely going to be able to make a citizen's arrest. A random sampling of the various states as well as the District of Columbia indicates that a citizen's arrest is valid when a public offense was committed in the presence of the arresting private citizen or when the arresting private citizen has a reasonable belief that the suspect has committed a felony, whether or not in the presence of the arresting citizen.

In the most crime ridden spot in the country, our nation's capitol, District of Columbia Law 23- 582(b) reads as follows:

(b) A private person may arrest another -

(1) who he has probable cause to believe is committing in his presence -

(A) a felony, or

(B) an offense enumerated in section 23-581 (a)(2); or

(2) in aid of a law enforcement officer or special policeman, or other person authorized by law to make an arrest.

(c) Any person making an arrest pursuant to this section shall deliver the person arrested to a law enforcement officer without unreasonable delay. (July 29, 1970, 84 Stat. 630, Pub. L. 91-358, Title II, § 210(a); 1973 Ed., § 23-582; Apr. 30, 1988, D.C. Law 7-104, § 7(e), 35 DCR 147.)

In Tennessee, it has been held that a private citizen has the right to arrest when a felony has been committed and he has reasonable cause to believe that the person arrested committed it. Reasonable grounds will justify the arrest, whether the facts turn out to be sufficient or not. (See Wilson v. State, 79 Tenn. 310 (1833).

Contrast this to Massachusetts law, which while permitting a private person to arrest for a felony, permits those acquitted of the felony charge to sue the arresting person for false arrest or false imprisonment. (See Commonwealth v. Harris, 11 Mass. App. 165 (1981))

Kentucky law holds that a person witnessing a felony must take affirmative steps to prevent it, if possible. (See Gill v. Commonwealth, 235 KY 351 (1930.)

Indeed, Kentucky citizens are permitted to kill fleeing felons while making a citizen's arrest (Kentucky Criminal Code § 37; S 43, §44.)

Utah law permits citizen's arrest, but explicitly prohibits deadly force. (See Chapter 76-2-403.)

Making citizen's arrest maliciously or without reasonable basis in belief could lead to civil or criminal penalties. It would obviously be a violation of a suspect's civil rights to use excessive force, to torture, to hold in unsafe or cruel conditions or to invent a reason to arrest for the ulterior motive of settling a private score.

Civil lawsuits against department stores, police departments, and even cult deprogrammers for false imprisonment are legend. Anybody who makes a citizens arrest should not use more force than is necessary, should not delay in turning the suspect over to the proper authorities, and should never mete out any punishment ... unless willing to face the consequences.

As the ability of the powers that be to hold society together and preserve law and order diminishes, citizen's arrests will undoubtedly be more common as a way to help communities cope with the wrongdoers in out midst.

http://www.constitution.org/grossack/arrest.htm

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 6:19am
Vtdoc,

Having been in law enforcement for most of my adult life, I would recommend you always tell an officer you're armed if stopped. He may well take your firearm during the duration of the stop and he might in fact check to see if your CCW is valid, but picture the misunderstanding if he happens to see the weapon or finds it on a pat down. Whats a little inconvenience if it helps everyone go home at night, right?

In KY firearms are allowed to be kept in the glovebox, but not the center console. I think storing a gun in either place is a dumb idea..........cars are frequently stolen and frequently broken into and a lot of times, by kids or teens. Now you have a stupid kid or young adult in possesion your weapon. If they're dumb enough to break into or steal your car, then you can imagine how dumb they'd be with a loaded firearm in their possesion. I say, if you have a permit to carry, then carry that firearm on you - that way you always maintain control over it and always have it immediately available to you should the need arise. After all, isn't that why you have the permit?
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 8:40am
In Ky,

<<Isn't it true that if the car is in your name, when they call the plate in before your stopped, it will come back that you have a cdw license?>>

The answer in a nutshell is "no". Calling in a plate before a stop will tell the officer who the car is registered to - the make, model and vin# of the car the plates are registered to - the drivers license status of the owner and whether he's wanted by LEIN or NCIC on any outstanding warrants. Unfortunately, at this time information on whether the owner has a CCDW is not given - maybe someday.

Keep in mind though, that an officer does not always get that information back to him in a timely matter. If the computers are down or if it's running slow, it means he'll likely be stopping that car cold, with absolutely no addtional information other than the probable cause he has for stopping the car.

Also remember, the owner is not always the one driving the car. While the registered owner might be as clean as the board of health, it doesn't mean the current driver or occupants of that car........are.
    
    
    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 8:41am
Mach, your reply is dead on. This person has brought themselves to the attention of the LEO by some sort of infraction, traffic or otherwise. Taking control of that person weapon till the "stop" is over is prudent.

Cruiser, thought citizen arrest is viable. I would be very careful. When you take a action to limit someone's freedom, you will be civilly and possibility criminally responsible for these actions. To the best of my knowledge that is no law the "REQUIRES" a non-commissioned person to act, other than reporting, if they witness a crime.

In a situation where the infrastructure (police) is stretched to the breaking point, you may have to defend your self. You may even join with neighbors to defend each other. But that is a far cry from aggressive Law Enforcement.

RetiredCopper, (I'm one also ) I agree with you. The best place for you weapon is on your body. That said, I often reposition my weapon for easier access while driving. BUT when I leave my veh. my weapon is on my person.

Bottom line, KNOW THE LAWS OF YOUR AREA!!!!! Then apply some common sense.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 8:51am
Wolfgang,

Congratulations on getting that retirement badge - hopefully you're still in one piece. I retired after spending what seemed a lifetime, in Detroit. Where'd you do your time?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 2:57pm
Originally posted by retiredcopper retiredcopper wrote:

Wolfgang,

Congratulations on getting that retirement badge - hopefully you're still in one piece. I retired after spending what seemed a lifetime, in Detroit. Where'd you do your time?


I put in 27 years in Baton Rouge. I still get around. But I'm nowhere as limber as I use to be.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 3:25pm
May,
 
I have a S&W 9mm and a .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel. I really like the .357. It is a medium frame, so it is fairly heavy. I am not a big person.
I am also looking for something a little smaller.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by Cruiser Cruiser wrote:

I’m not trying to get technical here but I grew up knowing that we had the right to enforce certain laws as citizens of this country and in some cases we even had the obligation to enforce the laws in the presence of a committed felony.  If this pandemic goes full bore we may even have to


Cruiser,

While you are 100% right on a theoretical lawful level, in today's litigious society, there are some points that your defense attorney will bring up in preparation for your trial after trying to make a citizen's arrest:

1. you have no training in legal statue definitions
2. you have no training in adhering to suspects civil rights
3. you have no training in the use of appropriate measured force.
4. you have no training in the judicial use of lethal force.
5. you have no training in what defines probable cause.
6. you have no training in observation
7. you are not sworn to uphold the law or the constitution.
8. the suspect was under no legal obligation to obey your orders.
9. you don't have proven proficiency with your weapon.
10. your attempt to make a citizen's arrest probably; violated the suspects civil rights, caused undo pain or injury or death from excessive force, did not have probable cause, or caused injury to innocent people.

11. You aren't covered by any state or federal tort law in the performance of your assumed duties as a private citizen

Even if none of these things were a factor, it will cost you a lot of money to prove it.

Of course this will vary by town, county, state and DA.

During a sever pandemic, if the cops can't come after the BG, so that you must do something about it, (other than self defense), they probably aren't coming after you for taking care of business.

Just something to think about before trying to stop that armed robber coming out of the bank.
    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 3:45pm
Originally posted by tigger2 tigger2 wrote:

May,
 

I have a S&W 9mm and a .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel. I really like the .357. It is a medium frame, so it is fairly heavy. I am not a big person.

I am also looking for something a little smaller.


tigger,

Like all of my posts they are 100% pure opinion, of which half is wrong. That being said, if you are looking for a small light wt carry weapon with good stopping power, take a look at the Glock 27. It's .40 cal, 10 rounds with one in the chamber and very small and concealable. It's a great off duty weapon.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 4:43pm
Mach,
 
I look forward to your replies since they usually fill in gaps in posts left behind.  Your points are extremely well taken and even if only 50% right, still need to be addressed.  Yes, I am not a lawyer nor am I a sworn LEO, but I am hyper-sensitive to your other points and do have extensive training in many of the other well stated points.  I'd never worry about a bank they are insured!  I am mostly concerned with the preservation of individual rights and liberties and I for one will have no hesitation excersicing my own civil rights in the event some perp ever crosses my path again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 5:43pm
thanks.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 5:47pm
Cruiser,

I do have official training in some of those areas also, which is probably why I am hyper sensitive to them. But I also live in a state that requires people to retreat from deadly force by jumping out a 2 story window!!! YGTBSM! I'm not a lawyer either. I will like you step in and do what I have to do to protect clearly innocent people. I need to be able to look in the mirror on occasion and like what I see. I won't try to arrest anybody, but I will use lethal force if required to protect innocent people. But I have to know they are truely innocent. The problem is once you step up to the plate, circumstances can change. there are many situations where I may not be able to tell a BG from an off duty cop in the amount of time I have. That is why I have pause in all of this. I have "chair flied" many possible situations ( comes from the jobs I have had) and many have possible bad outcomes even when they seem clear cut at the beginning.

I certainly agree if TSHTF, more of us will be doing what is required to uphold the law.

I too enjoy your comments. I have kind of a direct devils advocate approach, I'm glad you don't take my approach personally, It isn't meant personally. After rereading my long list, it now seems kind of abrupt. I should re-read before I post!
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 6:57pm
Originally posted by tigger2 tigger2 wrote:

May,
 

I have a S&W 9mm and a .357 magnum with a 4 inch barrel. I really like the .357. It is a medium frame, so it is fairly heavy. I am not a big person.

I am also looking for something a little smaller.


Tigger both of the weapons you have are nice weapons. Like mach stated the Glock 27 in 40 is a fine weapon and round. I personally have the Glock 26 which is the 9 mm version of the same pistol.

If you are going to sell one, you might think about selling both. Get matching calibers and magazines. Like the Glock 17 and a 26. (both 9 mm) OR a Glock 22 and a 27. Both are 40 S&W. You can use the magazines from the larger weapon (17/22) in the smaller weapon of the same caliber, 26/27. That way you only have to worry about 1 type of ammo. Just food for thought.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TERMS 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 7:10pm
In the state of MI you have to apply for a CCW. It used to be that you had to sit infront of a CCW board and state your reasoning for your supposed need to carry. Now you fill out the paperwork, get a background check, supply two pasport photos (1 for on the permit), take a CCW class (basically a joke) and then in about 6 weeks you get your permit in the mail. There are multiple restrictions on where you CAN'T carry your weapon, (school, church, bar, hospital and stadium for example).

If we are stopped by the P.D. we are required to state if we are carrying or not. Supposedly the name on the CCW is cross referenced with the name on the registration of the vechicle (license plate). Also our drivers licenses have the magnetic strip with our information on the back, (can anyone say "comrade, your pasport please?").

I origionaly got my CCW when I was working as a SWAT Medic and I still carry my Glock 30 in a shoulder rig even when I'm on my motorcycle. Whether I'm going "up north" or "down-town".


    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 9:51pm
i have significant leo training and service but i will not intervene utilizing lethal force unless there is SIGNIFICANT risk of life.   i won't initiate a lethal force encounter in any other circumstances.  i have seen too many situations go bad, including "victims" who later turn out to be less than straight forward, or even start legal "consultation" against their saviors.  talk about ungrateful!

  the most important thing is to situationally aware and don't allow yourself to be put in a situation where you can be identified as a weapon carrier.  that will put you in a bad position where you may have no choice but to engage on disadvantaged terms.  pay close attention to the situation andif you think you may be searched, or your life directly threatened [badguy decides to kill witnesses or orders you to do something that makes you fear for your life] then engage on your terms.  otherwise think of your family or those that depend on you and avoid escalating the situation.  especially in a shtf your death or serious injury may result in the deaths or serious danger to your loved ones. 


oh yeah, i live in PA which is a must issue state.  open carry is also legal here.  that means that if you don't fit into certain defined legal catagories you may not be denied a permit for any other reason.

pat
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 03 2007 at 9:59pm
Digital,

" I will be buying nice .308 and .243 hunting rifles in stainless. "

Can you do this legally down under ???

I thought gun ownership was illegal in Australia.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 1:59am
Originally posted by detpat detpat wrote:


i have significant leo training and service but i will not intervene utilizing lethal force unless there is SIGNIFICANT risk of life.   i won't initiate a lethal force encounter in any other circumstances. 


Pat,

I agree completely. For me, I will never initiate a lethal force encounter, but i will be first to use it to protect my family. Means, ability, intent, with no way to retreat. For me to step in and protect innocent people other than my family,the intent part pretty much means I already have seen someone else taken out with the intent to continue to take out others. As a civilian, I won't ever initiate a lethal force encounter, I will only respond to one with lethal force when the BG has the means ability and intent to inflict sever bodily harm or use lethal force against an innocent person. In my mind the letal force encounter is already in full swing if I jump in.

The Fed law that allows cops, to carry concealed outside their jurisdiction requires the cop to respond as a civilian. I think that may be very difficult to due for most. Act like a cop in your home state, act like a civilian everywhere else, including the requirement to retreat if able and that depends on the juristiction someone is in. They don't make it easy.
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote digital Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 4:39am

Diode

I hope this helps.

In Australia we are have substantial restrictions in place on obtaining and owning Firearms. It is England that is almost totally disarmed.

The authorities in Oz appear to be trying to discourage the ownership of Firearms as well.

The .243 and .308 (bolt action) hunting rifles I mentioned are legal in my State. Semi auto centre fires are "Category D prohibited for except for official purposes only" as per the description of Firearms categories below.

Some of the States have slightly different regulations but for the most part I believe they are similar.

The State of NSW police Service firearms website.
http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_us/structure/corporate_services/firearms/more_information/licences,_permits__and__registrations/licences#categories_firearms


The Sporting Shooters Association of the State of NSW
http://www.ssaansw.org.au/FirearmsCategories.htm

FIREARMS LICENCE CATEGORIES   

There are five (5) Firearms Licence Categories:
A, B, C, D and H

From the following summary of the five (5) Firearms Licence Categories, you will quickly realise that the vast majority of recreational shooters will only be able to apply for Categories A and B. Category C is normally only issued to farmers and professional shooters for feral animal control in special circumstances. Category D is only for official purposes only. Category H is for target handguns and is subject to a lengthy qualification period.
Licence Category A

Air rifles
Rimfire rifles (other than self-loading)
Shotguns (other than pump action or self-loading)
Shotgun/rimfire combinations




Licence Category B

Muzzle-loading firearms (other than pistols)
Centrefire rifles (other than self-loading)
Shotgun/centrefire rifle combinations




Licence Category C
(Prohibited except for occupational purposes)

Self-loading rimfire rifles with magazine capacity of no more than 10 rounds
Self-loading shotguns with magazine capacity of no more than 5 rounds
Pump action shotguns with magazine capacity of no more than 5 rounds




Licence Category D
(Prohibited except for official purposes)

Self-loading centrefire rifles
Self-loading rimfire rifles with a magazine capacity of more than 10 rounds
Self-loading shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds
Pump action shotguns with a magazine capacity of more than 5 rounds
Any firearm to which a category C licence applies




Licence Category H
(Special licencing requirements apply for Licence Category H. For information on pistol licences contact the NSW Police Firearms Registry or your local pistol club.)
Pistols (including blank fire pistols and air pistols)





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 10:04am
Why cant I find a Dr. like Vt.Doc??? That would be wonderful.
In NC if you do not conceal your weapon, you may carry it, as long as people can see it. However, you are not to carry in a public place. With or without a permit to carry. Therefore, I would choose not to get a concealed weapon permit, if I had a weapon, as it would alert people to the fact that I had firearms. I was thinking about all of this, when I saw weapons being taken during Katrina by authorities. I am not saying that, I think the police or officials didnt do the right thing, Katrina was a mess, with people shooting at rescue workers, and old ladies swinging guns in the face of cops, but I have a feeling, I could be wrong, that the law was not asking to see a permit, that it was more so, if you had a weapon, they wanted it.
When we lived in Ky twelve years ago, they had a three move law, you could conceal a weapon without a permit, if you had to make three moves to retrieve it. Therefore, the chief of police told us, that if you had a firearm in your glove box, you would be legal, without a permit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote VtDoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 12:16pm
I was thinking about all of this, when I saw weapons being taken during Katrina by authorities. I am not saying that, I think the police or officials didnt do the right thing, Katrina was a mess, with people shooting at rescue workers, and old ladies swinging guns in the face of cops, but I have a feeling, I could be wrong, that the law was not asking to see a permit, that it was more so, if you had a weapon, they wanted it.
 
They confiscated a lot of legally owned firearms and often with some heavy handed tactics including physical violence on at least one elderly woman.  As far as the reports of people shooting at rescue workers, most--if not all--of those stories were simply not true.  An even if they were, I don't see how going house to house looking for guns could possibly make a difference.  The real solution would be to actually look for the shooters and disarm them, and it's just a lot easier to beat up a grandmother and take her .22.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 8:19pm
Originally posted by VtDoc VtDoc wrote:

I was thinking about all of this, when I saw weapons being taken during Katrina by authorities. I am not saying that, I think the police or officials didnt do the right thing, Katrina was a mess, with people shooting at rescue workers, and old ladies swinging guns in the face of cops, but I have a feeling, I could be wrong, that the law was not asking to see a permit, that it was more so, if you had a weapon, they wanted it.



 

They confiscated a lot of legally owned firearms and often with some heavy handed tactics including physical violence on at least one elderly woman.  As far as the reports of people shooting at rescue workers, most--if not all--of those stories were simply not true.  An even if they were, I don't see how going house to house looking for guns could possibly make a difference.  The real solution would be to actually look for the shooters and disarm them, and it's just a lot easier to beat up a grandmother and take her .22.



VtDoc I have to agree with you on this. All the police did was go to the homes of the "regestered gun owners" and take their weapons. There were many documented cases of rescuers being shot at. But the didn't go after those guns. All they did was make the victim base larger by seizing legally owned weapons.    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2007 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by wolfgang2000 wolfgang2000 wrote:

VtDoc I have to agree with you on this. All the police did was go to the homes of the "regestered gun owners" and take their weapons. There were many documented cases of rescuers being shot at. But the didn't go after those guns. All they did was make the victim base larger by seizing legally owned weapons.    
 
 
I believe LEO's were able to do their job as they saw fit in dealing with an immediate threat due to a realtively temporary event because of a perceived support netowrk they could eventually expect to bolster their efforts.  They did what they had to do and did what they felt would provide the best safety for their effotrts.  If SHTF and we ever get to this level during a pandemic it will be village/city police forces (what's left of them) with marginal county support) to provide peace, law and order.  It could get very dicey and once the looting is over and done with, then the character and resolve of the communities will come into play.  It will be amuch different scenario and I believe the LEO's are laying the framework for this possibility.
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