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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

The much debated topic of Vitamin C

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    Posted: May 20 2009 at 4:35am
Originally posted by abcdefg abcdefg wrote:

 
I started the vitamin C regime yesterday, taking ten thousand mg every hour, until I got sick. Today, I am about half as tired, half as achy no sore throat, no runny nose. I heard this works because it creates such a acidic condition in your blood the virus can not survive


This is not medical advise- just sharing a few personal experiences. I have been using vitamin C for 30 years. As a nurse, I have yet to see an ER patient die from taking Vitamin C. Vitamin C is acidic. Therefore if you have ANY ANY GI problems then you should use a buffered form which will not burn you and cause you more problems.

More than any other treatment I have ever used bar none, Vitamin C has saved my life from some very bad diseases. I had Salmonella from raw goats milk and it was a nightmare. My wife and I were literally going bright red blood and emisis as well. We were so far gone (and disclaimer - if you are sick call 911- go see a doctor - get treated- okay.. now we did that- let's go on) we lay by two toilets trying to watch a 2 and 3 year old child. I finally started on C big time and in 6 hours I was almost symptom free.

Maybe it was a miraculous healing. Maybe it was - well- I am still here.

A gentleman in Vietnam we know took C as opposed to his wife with Avian and did not end up on a a respirator (while his wife did and almost died) while he kicked it in 4-5 days without severe symptoms. Your immune system is a crucial factor is fighting disease. Vitamin C helps your immune system to fight better if taken soon enough with the first onset or before onset of symptoms of influenza.

Linus Pauling was big into C and was from my geographical area. He lived to be 100 and fought the medical establishment his whole life because they could not patent a vitamin. Tylenol was invented because they could not patent aspirin. Aspirin is said to cause you tummy troubles. Motrin can be much much worse.

My friend is sending us a case of Vitamin C.

This little post is purely anecdotal and has the classic disclaimer. Skye's symptoms have been minimal from what may be Swine Flu and Bluebird gives him C in his sippee cup-very small amounts. This is not to advise anyone to give their children vitamin C.

The sicker you are the more Vitamin C you use depleting your own stores of it. You will know that your tissue is saturated if you get loose stools. At that point your body will (for awhile) just excrete it because it can't use any more. If you are taking vitamin C and this happens you should stop until the ceases. Dehydration (not enough water or loss of electolytes (google that) it a big problem in any disease.

Some people have taken very large doses before they reach a point where there is tissue saturation. All this (courtesy notice) should be done under a doctor's care. The amount that has been taken in some cases is extremely large. No advice here to take those kind of megadoses.

I have known hundreds of doctors that have prescribed the use of "reasonable" amounts of C to patients.

Every body is different. Crystalline C is an acid and if you can't handle it for whatever personal anatomical reason or disease it is said- it could damage you (it is said). Crystalline Vitamin C- except for IV form is the purest form of C. Many tablets with Rose Hips contain a lot of fillers. It has been proved that C with rutin and other substances may be more effectively used in the body.

I know an Osteopath who regularly treats patients with herbs, teas, and alternate medicines as opposed  to hard core drugs.  Many standard drugs have up to a hundred side effects listed, as opposed to the single symptom you are trying to eliminate.

There are no laws to keep you from buying herbal tea. There are laws from us telling you it can help you against disease or cure any specific disease. Some cultures have been using herbs for thousands of years to treat disease.

Enough said.

Medclinician
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Urban legends - although I would not want Skye playing with the above child Swine Flu as per current strain travels through the air and is transmitted from person to person.

However- down Mexico way- and also as documented in Texas swine flu unless borne by immaculate conception went from pigs to people.

Since children are primary carriers and high infectious more so than adults due to open sneezing, close social contact with other children and ucky stuff most of us would not touch or especially eat- playing kissy face with your child may be emotionally gratifying but you may as in the HIV commercial be doing so in effect with a classroom full of infected children.

Vitamin C is more effective before you get symptomatic than after.

Barry Ritz, PhD, in research at Drexel University has shown NK (natural killer) cell activity at the first stages of viral infection is extremely important to successfully combating a viral infection.


Nutritional support of the immune system, via key nutrients, should enhance the body's ability to defend against a previously unseen pathogen such as the "Swine Flu". While this shouldn't be construed as a "cure", but it may very well help blunt the impact of the swine flu.

When viral epidemics hit, like the current one, there is always a pattern of death and survival. A hundred people can be exposed to the same virus, some will have no symptoms, others will have mild symptoms but recover quickly, while others will have more severe symptoms and take longer to recover, and a few unfortunate individuals will die. The difference is not due to the virus, or the medical attention they receive, but the strength of the immune system in each person. We know certain things will harm or strengthen the immune system. By avoiding things that weaken the immune system and taking advantage of things that strengthen the immune system, you can fortify your body to have the best chance for survival. Most people survive swine flu with no intervention. So obviously, an intact human immune system is capable of defeating the virus.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kristikaylene Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2009 at 12:07pm
I have heard that too much vitamin C will cause blood to ooze from mucous membranes. 
 
Can any of the med types out there confirm/refute this?  Quite honestly, that has always kept me away from C-tablets and Emergenc-C...I don't want the cure to be worse than the disease!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote roni3470 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2009 at 1:32pm
I started on Emergen C, drinking one a day back in Mid-January.  My  husband has been sick twice and each of my kids 3 times this year.  Two upper respiratory things and then pink eye and ear infections.  My pediatrician said its not just me that she has seen the same families in her office over and over again with ailments.  Through all of this, I did not get sick once.  And my kids are 3 and 4 so I am in their face snuggling with them plenty.  i also do not wash my hands half as much as my germ a phobe husband.  yet I didn't get sick once this year and have no other reason to explain it other than the emergen C.  I only do one a day and I think it has kept me well this year....there is no way I dodged the bullet that many times by coincidence!  I am a strong supporter of Vitamin C and went and got some chewies that have a shelf life of a year so we can all be on them if something happens.  For those of you who don't know what emergen C is its a powder vitaimin that you add to water in various flavors and its got 1000mg of vitamin C and some B vitamins.
NOW is the Season to Know

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrbreeze Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2009 at 2:25am
I take at least 1000 mg of C everyday with meals and 100mg of D about 3 times a week.
I haven't had as much as a cold in years.
 
These articles delve more into vitimin C as treatment for flu...
 
 
 
Complete online book touting the use of C here...
 
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Disclaimer by Medclinician- It is not recommended that you take megadoses of any vitamin or mineral substance without consulting with an M.D. (medical doctor). Every person's body is different- in cases where the GI is compromised and high acid is introduced orally this may cause harm. Although the myth that C causes kidney stones has been largely debunked, it still persists. There has been an on going battle between drug manufacturers and those making vitamins and herbal medicine as to the effectiveness in treating a multitude of diseases. Eastern and Asian cultures, as well as American Indians have used herbs and natural cures for diseases for tens of thousands of years. With the advent of modern medicine and the ability to profit from chemical synthetically produced  drugs which often create more side effects or rebound effects which actually worsen the condition, they are the leading cause of death- by our current health care system- prescribed medicines in America. This is one focus of my book Addicted to a Poison. The truth about the use and abuse of modern drugs, legal and illegal, and the most serious breach of the code of Medicine- above all- do no harm.  Because of current laws in placed lobbied for and passed - no one may claim any medical benifit or label containers containing them, for either vitamins or herbs as effective treatments for any current  disease. It is highly probable that more deaths occur from the use of prescribed medicine than the use of illegal drugs. I do not encourage or recommend the use of illegal drugs however-While the use of illegal drugs may not kill that many people, they certainly can and often do destroy people's live, families, and ability to survive economically. The use of less harmful illegal drugs may lead to the use of more harmful drugs which indeed do (amphetamines) gives a strip (Electrocardiogram) from a 17 year old girl that looks like that on and 82 year old in terms of missing beats and arrythmias. It is a matter of personal choice, how many years you wish to lose of your life and how many wrinkles you wish to add to your face. However, the use of Vitamn C- is a much debated topic. The key to the debate is who is debating it and why.

TOBACCO 340,000 to 450,000
ALCOHOL (Not including 50% of all highway deaths and 65% of all murders)  150,000+
ASPIRIN (Including deliberate overdose)  180 to 1,000+
CAFFEINE (From stress, ulcers, and triggering irregular heartbeats, etc.)  1,000 to 10,000 
"LEGAL" DRUG OVERDOSE (Deliberate or accidental) from legal, prescribed or patent medicines and/or mixing with alcohol - e.g. Valium/alcohol  14,000 to 27,000 
ILLICIT DRUG OVERDOSE (Deliberate or accidental) from all illegal drugs. 3,800 to 5,200 
MARIJUANA

Almost a million people die every year from the use of alcohol, tobacco, coffee, legal drugs.
Half of all highways deaths may be attributed to the use of alcohol by a driver. More than 65% of all murders can be attributed to the use of alcohol.

The trouble with the National Academy of Science press release announcing the increased RDA of vitamin C and vitamin E is its alarming implication. The council implies that the mounting evidence for higher intakes is flimsy. Taking high amounts of these antioxidants might be harmful, they claim as they set suggested maximum dosages.

This reasoning is why we as laymen get lost trying to follow medical thinking. As far as anyone knows, there hasn't been a single death caused by an overdose of either vitamin C or vitamin E. For that matter, in recent memory, no one has died taking too much of any vitamin or amino acid.

On the other hand, according to the American Medical Association, doctors and the pharmaceuticals they prescribe are a leading cause of death and disability in the USA.

The National Academy of Science cites no evidence that taking too much vitamin C causes harm (other than a small minority of people with specific genetic diseases, e.g., hemochromatosis.) According to the mounting literature, the harm comes by taking too little vitamin C. People who follow Dr. Robert Cathcart's advice have taken over 100,000 mg (100 g) of vitamin C daily to relieve their symptoms, without adverse side affects. Vitamin C is about as toxic as water. The body seems to absorb what it needs.

Vitamin C is not the only completely non-toxic substance that, when taken in large amounts, confers great benefit and thus competes directly with pharmaceuticals. MSM and Co-enzyme Q10 (Co-Q10) come to mind. There are multiple reports of breast cancer remissions from high-dose Co-Q10. The first report was during a 1993 clinical study by Dr. Folkes in Denmark. During this study, a woman increased her daily Co-Q10 from 90 mg to 390 mg. In one month, her tumor was no longer palpable and in the following month, a mammogram confirmed the disappearance of her tumor. (See Ralph Moss's Antioxidants Against Cancer and Jean Carper's Miracle Cures.)

When the medical profession acts like a business, it cautions us about taking antioxidants, while pushing dangerous prescription drugs down our throats.


Orthomolecular Alternatives are SAFE

According to various statistics, not a single person in the United States died recently from an overdose of vitamins or amino acids. It is also unlikely that any people died or suffered serious complications from minerals or herb "overdoses".

COMPARATIVE CAUSES OF DEATH.
ANNUAL AVERAGE IN THE U. S.

Adverse Drug Reactions 100,000 to 140,000
Automobile Accidents 39,325
Food Contamination 9,100
Boating Accidents 2,064
Household Cleaners 74
Acute Pesticide Poisoning 12
All Vitamins 0
Amino acids 0
Commercial Herbal Products 0 **

*Sources Data as of 1995 from American Association of Poison Control Centers, National Center for Health Statistics, Journal of the American Medical Association, Centers for Disease Control, March of Dimes, Consumer Product Safety Commission, FDA Reports.
**Before Ephedra scare, Recent problems attributed to synthetic Ephedra and are not proven.
Medclinician

Despite data- it is the misuse of antibiotics in humans and animals, as well as the abuse of animal vaccines and antivirals which have created super strains of MRSA, VRSA, TB, and a pantheon of other pathogens which may wipe out a large portion of the human race.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hope4bestprep4wrst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2009 at 6:50am
I think vitamin C is pretty good stuff. The only complication I have seen iwas n  a friend of mine whose kidney stones were attributed to high dose vitamin C by his urologist (how did he figure that out, I do not know) FYI-that photo of the child kissing the pig is a webpage photo of a very very famous pork farming corporation.......ironic but very cute.

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Originally posted by hope4bestprep4wrst hope4bestprep4wrst wrote:

I think vitamin C is pretty good stuff. The only complication I have seen iwas n  a friend of mine whose kidney stones were attributed to high dose vitamin C by his urologist (how did he figure that out, I do not know) FYI-that photo of the child kissing the pig is a webpage photo of a very very famous pork farming corporation.......ironic but very cute.





oh oh - Geek

I thought it was cute too, actually. And I have several times posted my love of ham sandwiches and BLT. When there is a confirmed link - as in Avian and blood soup- then with much sadness I will swear off hot dogs and so forth. I try to keep my pig consumption pretty low- but sometimes... the dog-the chili-the cheese and onions overcome my health concerns.

Being a kidney stone lucky person - like had about 14 - in 5 years- only take C a bit each day and a bit (:)) more when I have something.

So preparing for the dunker chair from Urologists- this is what our current research has uncovered...

http://www.orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v01n07.shtml


Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, July 5, 2005

VITAMIN C DOES NOT CAUSE KIDNEY STONES

By Steve Hickey, PhD and Hilary Roberts, PhD.

(OMNS) It is strange how some medical authors seem desperate to show that vitamin C causes harm. One recurrent scare story is that vitamin C might cause kidney stones. However, although such warnings pop up regularly, these reports do not demonstrate an increase in the number or size of stones; instead, they rely on vague indicators of improbable risk.

The authors of such uncritical papers have probably not read the literature, for this is an old story. Decades ago, the idea that vitamin C causes kidney stones formed part of the medical attack on Linus Pauling. While it was initially a reasonable hypothesis, unexpected kidney stones are not found in people taking large amounts of vitamin C.

There is no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. Indeed, in some cases, high doses may be curative. (3) A recent, large-scale, prospective study followed 85,557 women for 14 years and found no evidence that vitamin C causes kidney stones. (4) There was no difference in the occurrence of stones between people taking less than 250 milligrams per day and those taking 1.5 grams or more. This study was a follow up of an earlier study on 45,251 men. This earlier study indicated that doses of vitamin C above 1.5 grams reduce the risk of kidney stones. (5) The authors of these large studies stated that restriction of higher doses of vitamin C because of the possibility of kidney stones is unwarranted.

4) Curhan, G. C., Willett, W. C., Speizer, F. E., Stampfer, M. J. (1999) Megadose Vitamin C consumption does not cause kidney stones. Intake of vitamins B6 and C and the risk of kidney stones in women, J Am Soc Nephrol., Apr, 10, 4, 840-845.

another post on the net.

Linus Pauling was a mentor of mine and a sponsor of the Center for Vitamins and Cancer Research that I co-founded at the University of Colorado Medical School in 1980. He was a great supporter of Vitamin C for all that ails you. There are many recent research papers showing reduction in heart disease, increased longevity, and so forth from taking more than 10 times the government recommended amount of Vitamin C. One of the arguments against taking large amount of Vitamin C was the risk of kidney stones. That debate has been laid to rest by a large study showing no increase in kidney stones from Vitamin C and a significant reduction in kidney stones from increased Vitamin B6.

j.

Department of Epidemiology, Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Massachusetts 02115, USA.

PURPOSE: The association between the intake of vitamins C and B6, and kidney stone formation was examined. MATERIALS AND METHODS: We conducted a prospective study of the relationship between the intake of vitamins C and B6 and the risk of symptomatic kidney stones in a cohort of 45,251 men 40 to 75 years old with no history of kidney calculi. Vitamin intake from foods and supplements was assessed using a semiquantitative food frequency questionnaire completed in 1986. RESULTS: During 6 years of followup 751 incident cases of kidney stones were documented. Neither vitamin C nor vitamin B6 intake was significantly associated with the risk of stone formation. For vitamin C the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 1,500 mg. daily or more compared to less than 250 mg. daily was 0.78 (95% confidence interval 0.54 to 1.11). For vitamin B6 the age-adjusted relative risk for men consuming 40 mg. daily or more compared to less than 3 mg. daily was 0.91 (95% confidence interval 0.64 to 1.31). After adjusting for other potential stone risk factors the relative risks did not change significantly. CONCLUSIONS: These data do not support an association between a high daily intake of vitamin C or vitamin B6 and the risk of stone formation, even when consumed in large doses.

PMID: 8618271 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

another renal legend bites the dust.

Dr. Linus Pauling of whom I (did not know him personally or did I ever meet him) but there were mutual friends and researchers -http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/chemistry/laureates/1954/pauling-bio.html there was huge concern in the drug industry he had found something that could just about anything in sufficient doses.

Finally

http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/f-w99/kidneystones.html

The accumulated evidence demonstrates that vitamin C, even in large amounts, is a remarkably safe substance. This evidence strongly supports the role of vitamin C as an important antioxidant, not a pro-oxidant. While we know that the relatively small amount of 100-200 mg/day provides substantial protection against age-related diseases, including heart disease, cancer, and cataract, and that a still smaller amount prevents scurvy, we do not yet know the optimal amount of vitamin C (see "The Optimal Intake of Vitamin C" by Stephen Lawson, LPI Newsletter Spring/Summer 1997). Large doses of vitamin C have been shown to be of therapeutic benefit in promoting relaxation of the arteries (vasodilation), which benefits patients with heart disease and "coronary risk factors", such as diabetes, high serum cholesterol levels, and high serum homocysteine levels. Large doses of vitamin C are also useful in combating viral infections, preventing toxemia in pregnant women (possibly through vasodilation), and as an adjunct to the appropriate conventional treatment of cancer. There is also a tremendous amount of anecdotal evidence and some clinical evidence that vitamin C may be of benefit in treating other illnesses and conditions. The difficulty of determining the optimal intake of vitamin C is due to its many different functions in the body, biochemical individuality, and the impracticability of measuring the vitamin C content of various tissues and organs in healthy people in order to correlate those amounts with blood levels and optimal function.

comment: The debate continues and urologists will continue to tell patients Vitamin C causes kidney stones. We do know this, however. We cannot make vitamin C like some other animals can, our diets are generally deficient in it, and the body appears to use more of it when we are sick. It cannot be patented, it is a naturally occurring substance and perhaps we might consider an age old medical saying
The right dose differentiates a poison and a remedy' Paracelsus (1493-1541).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote organicnut1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2009 at 7:21am
Just a reminder to everyone to invest in the book " Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Phyllis A. Balch.  It is an excellent guide to treating many ailments without drugs and antibiotics, but does give guidelines of when it is best to see your doctor.  The dosages are for adults and not for children.  You can find great used copies on Amazon.  It is the best
First Aid book I have ever owned!  A "must have" in preparing for SIP.  Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote abcdefg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2009 at 11:07pm
It is possible that some folks take vitamin C everyday in large doses and they end up with kidney stones. I take a normal amount when I am not sick. Use the elevated amounts when sick.
 
Med is right and I am wrong. The acid does not make it so the flu can not take hold. What Med said was correct, it is the fact that vitamin C makes it so your own immune system can produce more of what it needs to to fight the virus off.
 
Also Med makes a excellent point that I intend to repeat to many people in my lifetime. It is funny how people will question taking vitamins or something really good for you, some Dr.s will even tell you that vitamins are a waste of money all together. Yet, the people who believe that will think nothing of the risk of large amounts of nicotine, booze or whatever else they like. Grreat Point Med.
 
No disrespect meant to Dr.s at all. I admire them very much. However, in my own lifetime, nurses have helped me at least as much as Dr.s. They are more open minded about new, and inovative ways to save lives. Dr.s tend to be more scientific and need to have countless tests to prove something one way or the other.
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