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Scaring Seniors (Right Or Wrong)

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Mahshadin View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 07 2009 at 5:33pm

False Euthanasia Claims

The claim that the House health care bill pushes suicide is nonsense.

July 29, 2009

  Summary

On former Sen. Fred Thompson’s radio show, former lieutenant governor of New York Betsy McCaughey said that the House’s proposed health care bill contained a provision that would institute mandatory counseling sessions telling seniors how "to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short." House Minority Leader John Boehner made a slightly more measured statement, warning that the same provision "may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law."

In truth, that section of the bill would require Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling sessions helping seniors to plan for end-of-life medical care, including designating a health care proxy, choosing a hospice and making decisions about life-sustaining treatment. It would not require doctors to counsel that their patients refuse medical intervention.

Analysis

Our inboxes have exploded recently with worried queries from readers who have heard that the House’s proposed health care bill, H.R. 3200, contains a provision that would require that ailing seniors be pressed to consider suicide in order to save the taxpayers money on Medicare. Most messages mention that this clause appears on page 425 of the legislation. A sample e-mail forward:

Chain e-mail: On Page 425 of Obama’s health care bill, the Federal Government will require EVERYONE who is on Social Security to undergo a counseling session every 5 years with the objective being that they will explain to them just how to end their own life earlier. Yes…They are going to push SUICIDE to cut medicare spending!!!

Page 425 does deal with counseling sessions for seniors, but it is far from recommending a "Logan’s Run" approach to Medicare spending. In fact, it requires Medicare to cover counseling sessions for seniors who want to consider their end-of-life choices – including whether they want to refuse or, conversely, require certain types of care. The claim that the bill would "push suicide" is a falsehood.

McCaughey’s Scare Tactics

Many of the e-mails cite former Republican lieutenant governor of New York Betsy McCaughey’s interview on former senator and Republican presidential candidate Fred Thompson’s radio show. On July 16, McCaughey, who founded a group called the Committee to Reduce Infection Deaths in 2004, appeared on Thompson’s program to discuss health care. Citing page 425 of the bill, McCaughey claimed that “the Congress would make it mandatory … that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner, how to decline nutrition, how to decline being hydrated, how to go into hospice care … all to do what’s in society’s best interest … and cut your life short.” Thompson chuckled at this and said, “I’ve seen bits and parts of [the bill], Betsy, but I didn’t know that.” He hasn’t seen that bit, of course, because it doesn’t exist.

McCaughey misrepresents the content of page 425 of the bill. That section would require Medicare to pay for some end-of-life planning counseling sessions with a health care practitioner. Here’s part of the section in question.

H.R. 3200, page 425: Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning … .

(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders … .

The accepted definition of end-of-life planning means thinking ahead about the care you would like to receive at the end of your life – which may include the choice to reject extraordinary measures of life support, or the choice to embrace them. For instance, the National Library of Medicine describes end-of-life services as "services [that] are available to help patients and their families deal with issues surrounding death." This can include making decisions about treatment, designating a health care proxy, choosing a hospice program and putting together a living will, all of which the bill mentions explicitly as being part of an advance care planning consultation. In a 2003 study, the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality found that "

atients who talked with their families or physicians about their preferences for end-of-life care had less fear and anxiety, felt they had more ability to influence and direct their medical care, believed that their physicians had a better understanding of their wishes, and indicated a greater understanding and comfort level than they had before the discussion."

Furthermore, the bill would not make these sessions mandatory. It modifies section 1861(s)(2) of the Social Security Act, defining what services Medicare will pay for – if these definitions made treatments mandatory, seniors would all be required to get artificial legs and midwife services, too. In other words, this section of H.R. 3200 would require Medicare to pay doctors when they counsel their patients about such things as living wills, but no more frequently than once every five years, unless there’s a significant change in health status. "Both myself and our outside counsel have reviewed section 1233 of the House bill, and neither one of us can reach the conclusion that it is a mandatory consultation for Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries," Jon Keyserling, vice president of public policy at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization, told us. "The opportunity for the consultation is not only voluntary but patient-initiated."

"As I understand it, the intent of the provision is to have patients be provided an opportunity to discuss with their own health care professional, probably the one they have been seeing for the past many years, what their treatment wishes might be as they approach the end of life," said Keyserling, who stressed that consultations like this are treatment-neutral. Comparing this to forced euthanasia is like saying that a bill making retirement planning easier would force Americans to quit their jobs.

A press release from the AARP describes McCaughey’s description of the health care bill as “rife with gross – and even cruel – distortions.”

AARP press release, July 24: Ms. McCaughey’s criticism misinterprets legislation that would actually help empower individuals and doctors to make their own choices on end-of-life care.

This measure would allow Medicare to pay doctors for taking the time to talk with individuals about difficult end-of-life care decisions. It would help provide people with better information on the positives and negatives—both physical and financial—that different treatments can mean for them and their families.

Facing a terminal disease or debilitating accident, some people will choose to take every possible life-saving measure in the hopes that treatment or even a cure will allow them more time with their families. Others will decide that additional treatment would impose too great a burden—emotional, physical and otherwise—on themselves and their families, declining extraordinary measures and instead choosing care to manage their discomfort. Either way, it should be their choice.

This measure would not only help people make the best decisions for themselves, but also better ensure that their wishes are followed.

Incidentally, we’ve rebutted other claims by McCaughey. In February, she claimed, based on the bill’s promotion of comparative effectiveness research, that the stimulus bill would enact a health care rationing board that would deny care to seniors.

Boehner’s Baseless Claim

At least two Republican leaders have echoed this end-of-life distortion. On July 23, Republican Rep. John Boehner of Ohio, the House minority leader, released a statement, along with Republican Policy Committee Chairman Thaddeus McCotter of Michigan, saying that the bill would encourage euthanasia:

Boehner/McCotter statement, July 23: Section 1233 of the House-drafted legislation encourages health care providers to provide their Medicare patients with counseling on “the use of artificially administered nutrition and hydration” and other end of life treatments, and may place seniors in situations where they feel pressured to sign end of life directives they would not otherwise sign. This provision may start us down a treacherous path toward government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law.

We can’t argue with Boehner’s claim that counseling “may” cause more seniors to refuse treatment such as artificial nutrition and hydration, but we see no evidence that it will. There’s certainly no requirement in the bill that seniors decline life support or extraordinary measures of medical treatment.

Furthermore, seniors have had control over the end-of-life issues the Republicans are concerned about for a long time. California first legally ratified the use of advance directives like living wills in 1976, and the 1990 Patient Self-Determination Act mandated patients’ rights to decide what degree of intervention they prefer. Though there are still controversies over what care patients should be allowed to refuse and under what circumstances, the fact is that the right to refuse care is nothing new.

As for the argument claiming that this is the first step on a slippery slope leading to government-encouraged euthanasia, that’s a stretch. The right to draw up an advance directive is federally guaranteed, but doctor-assisted suicide is legal in only three states. It would take a lot more than Medicare-funded counseling for voluntary euthanasia to become a standard government recommendation.

The original author of this part of the legislation responded to Boehner’s and McCotter’s statement on the House floor, saying that "nothing could be further from the truth." The section under question was based on a stand-alone piece of legislation sponsored by Democratic Rep. Earl Blumenauer of Oregon and Republican Rep. Charles Boustany of Louisiana. Three more Democrats and another Republican cosponsored the legislation. On July 24, Blumenauer expressed his "disappointment" in Boehner’s misinterpretation of the bipartisan bill:

Rep. Blumenauer, July 24: In a statement from the minority leader … there is an allegation that somehow there is legislation in the health care draft that may place senior citizens in situations where they feel pressured to sign end-of-life directives that they would not otherwise sign that may start us down a "treacherous path towards government-encouraged euthanasia if enacted into law."

Well, Mr. Speaker, nothing could be further from the truth. Had the minority leader, and his whip, and the conference Chair bothered to check how that legislation came to be enacted into our health care legislation, they would have found out that it was work of a bipartisan group of Ways and Means Committee members. There were Republicans cosponsoring it along with Democrats. …

We’re seeking … to be able to adjust Medicare so that it speaks to the needs of American seniors and their families, that they’re given the attention they need to prepare for this difficult period of time. There’s nothing in this legislation that would force people to have consultations. There’s nothing that would force them to sign advance directives. It’s not going to choose a health care professional by the government and force it on them. …

Mr. Speaker, I can’t tell you how disappointed I was to see this type of reaction to a carefully crafted piece of legislation that we’ve been working on for more than 6 months that is bipartisan and that speaks to the needs of American families.

Blumenauer also discussed the importance of advance planning on life-extension treatment. "[T]oo often senior citizens and their families are not given the information they need to be able to cope with the most serious situation any of us will ever face as we have a loved one move into the end of his or her life," he said. "We had … Republican committee members talk about how their loved ones didn’t get that type of help at the end of life and actually were subjected to things that they thought were not in the best interests of their loved one. If they had a choice, they wouldn’t have done it over again, and it didn’t prolong their life, it actually made them less comfortable."

Obama Responds

At an AARP town hall event on July 28, the president took on questions about these claims. A woman named Mary, from North Carolina, asked: “I have been told there is a clause in there that everyone that’s Medicare age will be visited and told to decide how they wish to die. This bothers me greatly and I’d like for you to promise me that this is not in this bill.” Obama responded:

Obama, July 28: I think that the only thing that may have been proposed in some of the bills – and I actually think this is a good thing – is that it makes it easier for people to fill out a living will. … And if you don’t want to fill out a living will, you don’t have to. But it’s actually a useful tool I think for a lot of families to make sure that if, heaven forbid, you contract a terminal illness, that you are somebody who is able to control this process in a dignified way that is true to your faith and true to how you think that end-of-life process should proceed. You don’t want somebody else making those decisions for you. … But, Mary, I just want to be clear: Nobody is going to be knocking on your door; nobody is going to be telling you you’ve got to fill one out. And certainly nobody is going to be forcing you to make a set of decisions on end-of-life care based on some bureaucratic law in Washington.

Moderator and AARP radio host Mike Cuthbert then told Obama: “As I read the bill, it’s saying that Medicare will, for the first time, cover consultation about end-of-life care, and that they will not pay for such a consultation more than once every five years. This is being read as saying every five years you’ll be told how you can die.” The president responded: “Well, that would be kind of morbid.”

He went on to explain: “The intent here is to simply make sure that you’ve got more information, and that Medicare will pay for it.” Exactly so.

– by Jess Henig, with Lori Robertson

Sources

U.S. House. "H.R. 3200." (as introduced 14 Jul 2009.)

Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality. "Advance Care Planning: Preferences for Care at the End of Life." Mar 2003.

Social Security Act. 42 USC 1395x. (accessed 29 Jul 2009.)

"AARP Responds to Health Reform Scare Tactics." Press release. AARP 24 Jul 2009.

Keyserling, Jon. Interview with FactCheck.org 29 Jul 2009.

House Republican Leader John Boehner. Statement by House GOP Leaders Boehner and McCotter on End-of-Life Treatment Counseling in Democrats’ Health Care Legislation. 23 Jul 2009.

Patient Self-Determination Act. 42 USC 1395cc. (accessed 29 Jul 2009.)

U.S. House. "H.R. 1898." (as introduced 2 Apr 2009.)

U.S. Congressional Record. 24 Jul 2009: H8796.

Remarks by the President in an AARP Tele-Town Hall on Health Care Reform, AARP Headquarters. WhiteHouse.gov 28 Jul 2009.

Posted by Jess Henig on Wednesday, July 29, 2009 at 4:50 pm 
Filed under Articles · Tagged with Barack Obama, euthanasia, health care, medicare

 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 8:06am

Clarence Page: Scaring seniors to death

 
By Clarence Page 4:45 PM Wednesday, August 5, 2009

Is the White House losing the message war on health care? Like other presidents, Barack Obama is pestered by myths and conspiracy theorists. He can easily ignore the “birthers,” who refuse to let facts get in the way of their misguided belief that Obama’s birth certificate is a fake. But if there is any rumor that he needs to squelch as soon as possible, it is the truly dangerous myth that he wants to kill seniors.

He faced that question head-on during a televised town hall at AARP headquarters in Washington last week.

“I have been told that there is a clause in there that everyone that’s Medicare age will be visited and told to decide how they wish to die, “ a woman named Mary asked the president.

Mary did not say where she was told this, but it is not hard to guess. Conservative bloggers, talk show hosts and House Republican Leader John Boehner, among other critics of Obama’s health care plans, have been spreading the idea that the House health care bill promotes euthanasia.

They take this notion from a provision in the bill that would provide Medicare coverage for an end-of-life consultation once every five years, if the patient wants it. If a person falls ill with a life-threatening disease, more frequent sessions would be allowed.

Ironically, similar end-of-life concepts have been a part of federal health care law since 1990 — with bipartisan support. But now that Republicans can use the language as a wedge between seniors and Democrats, lo and behold, it has become an alleged invitation to legal suicide.

They have been aided in this mission by a key figure in the killing of Bill and Hillary Clinton’s proposed health care reforms in the early 1990s. Former New York Lt. Gov. Betsy McCaughey, a conservative health care specialist, lit the spark on various op-ed pages and talk shows, including former Sen. Fred Thompson’s radio talk show.

There she told Thompson that “Congress would make it mandatory, absolutely require, that every five years, people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner.”

“The bill expressly says if you get sick somewhere in that five-year period, you have to go through that session again,” McCaughey continued, “all to do what is in society’s best interest or your family’s best interest and cut your life short.”

Nonsense. The provision would require Medicare to pay for advanced care consultations, but it does not require individuals to take advantage of the benefit.

Nor does it require that a government bureaucrat intervene between the patient, the patient’s family and a doctor or nurse practitioner, as McCaughey insists it does.

Yet, in a telephone interview with me, McCaughey continued to insist that the counseling was “mandatory” when, in fact, it is optional. “I’m standing by that,” she said of the word “mandatory.”

She denied that she ever said, as Boehner implies, that the plan encouraged euthanasia. Still she characterized it as requiring seniors to be instructed in “how to cut your life short,” even though the legislation does not require anything of the sort. It does help, as Obama explained at the AARP town hall, patients and their families to receive end-of-life counseling. Is that a bad thing? Not at all, McCaughey agreed, as long as the government doesn’t get involved in it.

“These are such sacred issues of life and death,” she said. “Government should have nothing to do with it.” OK. The bill calls for government to fund the counseling and get out of the way, much like private insurers would.

And, by the way, let us not pretend that private insurers don’t take dollars and cents into account, too, when they decide who gets covered and what doesn’t get covered.

Even though most Americans tell pollsters they are satisfied with their current coverage, our system costs more and covers fewer people than those in other industrialized countries — and the problems of cost and coverage are getting worse. We need to have an honest debate. Our lives depend on it. But, of course, politics and political ideologies inevitably get in the way.

Obama has tried to learn from the Clintons’ mistakes. He’s turned the details of the plan over to Congress, but the prolonged debate and multiple bills have muddled his message while the Republicans have a simple bumper sticker: “Nope.”

Now opponents of the bill are adding another four-letter word: fear. Unfortunately this debate could be scaring seniors to death. Unlike the Clinton era, today’s voters have another ally on our side: Internet-age media. Obama showed during his campaign how to get his message out in a hurry. He needs to do that again, as soon as he figures out exactly what his message is.

 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Mahshadin give it up. You and your silly liberals have sparked a poopstorm that is getting closer to an armed revolt every day.
 
Is there any wonder why your party of choice is bringing in Union enforcers to quash the dissenters? They just can't take the heat. Maybe they should stop screwing around with the people.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 9:37am

I am an Independent

I happen to support Healthcare Reform, I have spent the last year and a half to 2 years dealing with  health crisis/s in my own family and the (Wonderful Insurance Corporations)  who promised to fix the problems the last time we stopped Healthcare Reform (1990s).
 
Wgich of course never happened and as a matter of fact have made things much much worse.
 
If you want to label me because I am exposing Lies and Deception then so be it. This problem needs to be delt with and we dont need people at the table whos only effort is to decieve and scare people with (OUTRIGHT LIES).
 
And if it were the other side I would be maligning them as well. Any side Left, Right, Green, or whatever and their only contribution to the process is lies, deceptions, and Fear Mongering I will oppose them as should every American
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 1:41pm
 
 
all I know is... what the Ins Monopolies in NYS are passing off onto the poorer public
 
as comprehensive health care is a joke.... and not to mention...
 
 The Human Head Is Not A Part of Our Bodies
 
According to them. 
 
 
 
They (INS.) will not pay out to maintain your head.          Logical? ClownClownClown     
 
 
.......................................................................
 
 
 
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Turb...  there is the ...National Agenda... and the National Agenda... the figurhead matters little?
 
 
 
 
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provision in the bill that would provide Medicare coverage for an end-of-life consultation once every five years, if the patient wants it. If a person falls ill with a life-threatening disease, more frequent sessions would be allowed.
......................................................................
.
Now dearie... you are old as heck and you can end it now if you like...and i will be back next week to talk with you all over again about ending it all.... and if this illness becomes life threaten in I'l be back every other day to c-h-a-t with you about ending it all.  OK?
.
and.... did your Doctor tell you about how this operation has a 50 percent chance of killing you anyway?   You may want to think about that dearie.   and here is a video on it, never mind the part at the begining that tells you the FBI could fine you or put you in jail...that is just a requirement of....every....single....DVD.... watched .... in.... the.... entire..... USA. 
 
 
now don't worry about all this silly Government red tape....
 
 
 
did it seem like the discussions were excessive?   Oh it could just be an error... errors happen all the time when so much government intervention is in every aspect of your life...
just a little side thing from being taken care of  :)
 
 
I am for it.... I am against it.      (I wish I was rich.)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 5:12pm

This issue is clearly defined and some of you if you ripped out your insurance policy would  probably find  the same thing.

H.R. 3200, page 425: Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), the term ‘advance care planning consultation’ means a consultation between the individual and a practitioner described in paragraph (2) regarding advance care planning, if, subject to paragraph (3), the individual involved has not had such a consultation within the last 5 years. Such consultation shall include the following:

(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.

(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.

(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.

(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning … .

(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

(F)(i) Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders

 
This is an intentional distortion to scare seniors, into believing the gov will be standing over the bed pulling the plug (Outright Lie)
___________________________________________________________ 

I have some experience with this as I lost my Father a year ago this August.

Once they figured out what was happening to him, infection in the spine, and that surgical removal of a portion of the spine was the only option and replacing them with portions of Rib material removed during the same procedure. Needless to say this was an extensive and life threatening moment. I am grateful that the physician took us all aside and informed us including Father all of the decisions that had to be made. We were swimming in enough distress without having to figure all of this stuff out without the help of an informed physician. Planning had to take place early for full in-patient facilities with rehabilitation services, Health Proxy needed to be made, power of attorney, life sustaining treatment or similar orders, among other things had to be decided.

If the surgery was successful their would be a 6 month to a year maybe longer recovery time before standing again. The End Of Life Conversation which the physician did with us was invaluable, he knew all of the different facilities and what they did or did not do, and explained we would. Explained life saving and sustaining treatments and what and who would make those decisions.

This was a pretty unexpected event and I can tell you from my perspective in a time of great emotional distress this conversation helped us out immensely, and we had most everything in place, paperwork done and all decisions were addressed.

My Father survived that surgery and was on his second month of the recovery at a rehabilitative  nursing facilty when he passed suddenly in the middle of the night. There were many highs and lows in the month and a half I spent their (1800  miles from my home), and having a trusted family Doctor Explaining all of decisions that needed to take place and why was incredibly useful and saved us all a lot of grief

This topic has been turned into a morbid conspiracy theory with the government being an evil figure talking older Americans into death. Nothing could be further from the truth and this is perhaps the most delusional, and disgusting deception campaign I have ever seen (Scaring Seniors Citizens).

 
When we discuss this type of intentional manipulation of the people from other parts of the world we call it propaganda and terror. Same should apply here
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AandEmommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 6:35pm
"When we discuss this type of intentional manipulation of the people from other parts of the world we call it propaganda and terror. Same should apply here"

Bravo Mahshadin.  So true.

I am in complete awe of the ridiculousness of this "death panel" discussion. I spent two years of my life fighting insurance companies, and ended up watching my family member die penniless and scared.  If TPTB would have taken the time to sit down and listen to us (which a small number of wonderful health practitioners were willing to do) we all could have understood better and offered much more appropriate care.  Feeling like you have a plan makes the future much less scary.  Being sick is scary enough.  Planning is a good thing.  How is it that we are all O.K. with, or worse, willing to cheer someone on who HAS NO IDEA WHAT SHE IS TALKING ABOUT and is using an innocent baby as a pawn in a disgusting scare tactic to frighten people? 
Insurance companies make BILLIONS in profit each month by denying things that KEEP AMERICANS ALIVE!  And we are all O.K. with this?  Really?  How did a true discussion about health care reform turn into something so vile?  We spend more on health care than any other country in the world.  We rank 50th in overall health. How does it make me a Communist because I don't like that some CEO made millions from the suffereing of my loved one? I love debate and discussion, but this campaign of hurtful lies is like nothing I have ever heard of.  It is one thing for a politician to spread rumors and innuendo about an opponent, but to spread lies whose soul purpose is to terrorize seniors and the disabled?  Despicable.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 6:46pm
In truth, that section of the bill would require Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling sessions helping seniors to plan for end-of-life medical care, including designating a health care proxy, choosing a hospice and making decisions about life-sustaining treatment. It would not require doctors to counsel that their patients refuse medical intervention.
........................................................................
 
When the head of AARP was asked about this issue....  he should have had the above at the forefront, I felt....he acted as though he was skirting questions.   What bothered me was.... he didn't address to my satisfaction.... the worry over rationing of healthcare for Seniors.
 
 
If we want ...  Government Health Care, there needs to be open dialog and many people adding ideas... and foremost deciding on oversight.  Any word on that? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AandEmommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 7:58pm
The thing is, in the current system we have, care is rationed CONSTANTLY.  When my family member was dying, we had to make tough choices almost daily because of what insurance would pay for, and what they wouldn't.   (which type of chemo will they pay for? How often can we get dialysis, when will you let us know if this drug is "approved" and will it be too late for it to do any good by the time you do?  Where do we have to go to get the treatments?  (Two hours in the car is not possible when you vomit every 10 min.)  How long would we be on waiting lists for procedures, should we choose a different procedure if that one would be faster?  If we do this procedure, will she be able to hold her newborn grandson, or have to be in isolation?  Should we even consider that? )  And, the list went on and on and on... And, just when you thought you crossed a hurdle, someone "misfiled" a form and you would have to start the fight all over again.  It is so frustrating, difficult and anger filled, that I still get upset just thinking about it 5 years later. 
I do understand the fear that maybe this is the beginning of a "slippery slope" of refusing costly care at the end of life.   But as someone who watched this painful experience play out I will say this;  End of life care should be completely overhauled.  Doctors and nurses do a wonderful job of "treating" patients.  But the end of life is very different than undergoing treatment.  This is hard to explain, and this may not be the best analogy, but; women who give birth want an "experience" more than they want a "procedure."  If we were able to look at the end of life as just another part of the life experience, we could offer alternatives to the basic "treatment."  Please understand, I am not talking about giving up the fight for life, I am saying that we as patients and loved ones are not empowered with all of the choices available to us.  We were thinking about the next coarse of treatment a week  before she died.  I spoke with a nurse in passing, and she looked at me very closely and said, "Why are you putting her, and yourself through that?"  We could have approached the whole thing much differently. (Let's not even get into the profit motive of costly procedures)  It would have given all of us a better "end of life experience" to have had time to sit with her doctors and plan out our strategy for her care.  They meant well, but they were too busy to sit, talk and explain.   Making the room look and smell nicer would have been far more helpful to her and us than some of the painful tests and procedures they insisted on doing.  (And less costly for everyone.)
This discussion about the end of life is just a tiny part of the over reaching need for changes in the system.  What is upsetting to me is how a small issue "hijacks" the whole debate. 
I do appreciate being asked for a "word."  I am afraid I gave more than one, but honestly it is very refreshing to have an outlet for this type of discussion.  There is so much to learn about this topic, and there are so many facets to the problems, it becomes overwhelming.  I think the temptation is there just to disagree to the whole idea of change all together rather than sort out all of the minutia.  Thanks for "listening."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 9:06pm
AandEmommy
 
 
 ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
 
I totally understand, I am still trying to fight Insurance Corp , it is uphill battle, I was told by one person after heated discussion about denial of treatment that I should bring my team of lawyers because they will have theirs.
 
People just dont understand that they have changed all the rules and you dont find out until your family has a health issue.
Too Late
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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My mother just passed away a few months ago just shy of 87 yrs. old.  I went through quite a bit with her as she had several disc compression fractures as well as a broken hip 3 yrs ago.  What I remember the most was having to argue with and do battle with these do-gooder social welfare pukes in the hospitals & nursing homes every time I wanted to take her home earlier than they felt I should.  Mom wanted to leave in every single case & it was easier to take care if her at home than continuously visit her in the hospitals or nursing homes.  She received far better care at our home than she did anywhere else.  She couldn't even get a glass of water in one nursing home & the black nurses in the other nursing home mistreated their white patients because of the giant chips on their shoulders.  They were racists.  My caring for her allowed the end of her life to be vastly more comfortable for her & simply not as dangerous for her either.
 
She had COPD & retained carbon dioxide & every place she was at, they thought more oxygen was better.  They almost killed her in one nursing home & one hospital by cranking the oxygen up too high.  I was her advocate.  One time mom & I insisted she go home with me instead of going back to a nursing facility for recuperation.  She'd been on narcotics like morphine patches or oxycontin for pain for about 6 weeks.  I'm sure the nursing home would have given her more of the same, but I felt it was time to withdraw the meds & clean her system out & she was fine 48 hours later.
 
When she was in the nursing home after her broken hip surgery, I took up 4 different eye drops.  That night they'd already lost two of them.  The social worker puke who worked there tried to tell me that my mother was confused about the number of drops she had with her.  This was so typical.  Everytime mom complained about someting, the social worker puke would tell me that mom was confused.  Well I told her I brought all 4 drops up there & even spelled them out for her.  I also assured this social welfare puke that mom was the most lucid person I'd ever known.  One evening I went to visit her & someone else's eye drops were on her table.  I guess mom was confused about this too!
 
My blood just boils every time I think that the Obama health care plan is going to have one of these social welfare pukes advise me on end of life care when I don't want anything to do with them in the first place!  I'd like to advise them on how to end their lives as I've never found any of these social welfare pukes to be worth a damn.
 
I hate to imagine how anyone with a broken hip can wait 5 months to have surgery under Obamacare.  (just like Europe)  Yes, the old people will die for sure in that time.
 
How is anyone qualified to estimate how long somone has to live.  How then are they qualified to give end of life advise?  Will their end of life counseling also include voluminous notes to the government supporting no further care for a particular patient?  My biggest fear is that the government will push their end of life care agenda down our throats whether we want it or not with the goal being "no more health care for you!".  Will their end of life advise give seniors the false impression that their death is just around the corner?
 
Govt. run health care means that everyone will have healthcare whether they are here legally or illegally.  More people will receive a standard level care so then lots of us will receive lesser care in order to pay for for the illegal's or non-working leeches of society. 
 
SINCE WHEN DID HEALTH CARE BECOME A RIGHT?
 
If your dog poops on your living room floor are you going to burn down your whole house in order to get rid of it?  Why can't we fix the parts that are broken?  Where is the money going to come from to pay for it all?  Why are we taking such a huge risk when we're on the brink of economic collapse & great depression 2.0?  Why is it so urgent that Congress isn't even allowed the time to read this bill?  Why is it so urgent that the public doesn't even have the time to become more informed themselves?  How do the liberals have such confidence that this isn't going to make our healthcare system worse & not better?
 
I'm reasonably happy with my medical insurance & health care with one exception.  The doctors are primadonna's & charge too much.  Gotta pay for that fancy house, fancy car, private tuition for kiddies, as well as expensive membership to that snobby country club where they think their asses weigh a ton.  That's what needs to be fixed!
 
If anyone wants end of life counseling & advice, all you have to do is talk to your lawyer, the social worker puke in the hospital or your doctor assuming he has the time for you or even gives a damn.  You don't need to change our entire health care system in order to have these dicussions.  You can have them now! 
 
How's this for an end of life discussion?  This very caring intensive care doctor calls me up & said; "your mom took a turn for the worse & we had to intubate her."  "How long do you want us to leave her on the ventilator?"  "Does she have a DNR?"  (This actually happened to me back in January.)  Thank God I was sick at the time & couldn't get to the hospital for 4 days or I might have acted on her DNR too soon.  My cousin's wife is a respiratory therapist & couldn't get her off the vent for more than 10 minutes on day 3.  On day four we acted on mom's DNR & pulled the vent.  As it turned out, she was able to get of the vent just fine on day 4.  Then we had another 4 months before she passed away peacefully asleep in her bed at home.  End of life counseling is all right to a point, but there are a whole host of cirumstances surrounding the application of a DNR.  What I learned is that they are too simplistic.  Having just one or two more days on a vent can make a world of difference to the outcome of a patient, obviously.   Some patients have recovered after being in a coma for months! 
 
If Obama care is such a great plan then why wouldn't Congress want to be on it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 9:46pm
Originally posted by Mary008 Mary008 wrote:

In truth, that section of the bill would require Medicare to pay for voluntary counseling sessions helping seniors to plan for end-of-life medical care, including designating a health care proxy, choosing a hospice and making decisions about life-sustaining treatment. It would not require doctors to counsel that their patients refuse medical intervention.
........................................................................
 
When the head of AARP was asked about this issue....  he should have had the above at the forefront, I felt....he acted as though he was shirting questions.   What bothered me was.... he didn't address to my satisfaction.... the worry over rationing of healthcare for Seniors.
 
 
If we want ...  Government Health Care, there needs to be open dialog and many people adding ideas... and foremost deciding on oversight.  Any word on that? 
_______________________________________________________________________
Yoour exactly right Mary008
 
 
Open debate requires an honest approach from all sides, but instead we get to debate and spend all this time defusing outright lies and deception.
 
Not hard to see who has your back here!!!
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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If I don't agree with you about Obamacare & don't think it is right for this country then I must be lying or deceiving someone?
 
If I don't agree with you about Obamacare then I must be pushing some agenda?
 
If I don't agree with you about Obamacare then I'm being dishonst?
 
All of us have rights to our opinions whether they are agreeable with Obamacare or not!
 
I believe our country can't afford it right now.  I'm not convinced that Obamacare is the right thing to do.  I'm not convinced that healthcare won't be worse afterwards than before.  I'm not convinced that we won't have long waiting periods for elective surgery like they do in Europe.  If Obamacare is so great then why wouldn't Congress want to dump their plan & get on ours?  Why is this such an urgent issue that Congress doesn't even have the time to read the entire bill?  Why is it being jammed down our throats without having a lengthy debate in Congress?  Why do illegal aliens get healthcare under this plan when they are here illegally & don't even pay taxes?  Why should my tax money go to pay for anything for an illegal?
 
 
 
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Just as public education no longer allows even a moment of silence for prayer because of separation of church and state, it used to be kids prayed in school, so what something starts out as is not how it ends.
 
I do not want some idiot depressing my loved ones by feeling the need to counsel them on end of life care. When the patient is ready for that, that is the time, and not before.
 
I am no fan of insurance companies, but I am a even lessor fan of government run anything, every program they run is filled with glut and misuse of funds. What in the world would make us think this would be any better. I do not need the government to take care of my bills, I will do that myself, get off my back with taxes and I will be just fine. I want the choice of Dr.s, hospitals and where I am treated.
 
My childrens Dr. said that the problem with this program for physicians is that with capitolism people work hard to achieve what they get, it is the carrot in front of the nose,  when all physicians are held to pay restraints they are not going to continue to work as they do, no one would. Instead they will simply tell their accountants when they hit the amount of patients that they would have treated before to earn their income they are done. Then you need more Dr.s and in order to get them you lower the standards so they can pass tests.
 
Another problem in countries with socialized medicine is rich people being able to pay Dr.s under the table for more and better care. Making themselves and the Dr.s cirminals.
 
Years ago I talked to the lady whose husband invented the bubble top for presidential cars, she is a german, she said they left Germany because of the cost of socialized medicine, it cost half their checks in taxes. The government is more greedy then anyone, if they gat a monopoly their fees to us in the form of taxes will go up. Just as they have for schools while the care goes down.
 
Anyone who thinks that when peoples taxes and money are directely associated with socialized mediicine that eventually, sooner rather then later politicans will be pressured by their own constituents to lower the taxes as they are now with everything else is nuts, and the only way to lower the cost is to cut the care.
 
Laws can be changed to fix the crap that insurance companies screw up, such as not allowing them to stop insurance for pre exisiting conditions, forcing them to cover everyone regardless of health just as car insurance carriers are forced to take so many high risk drivers. Then, the government does need to step in and help people with catostrophic illness or the inability to pay. They can do this by making a laws that say if you are without money and a job, you get healthcare, without having to loose your home and cars etc.
 
As it stands too manh other people stick their noses into private matters when it comes to health care.
 
I also do not want the government to know all my medical history, and Obama should understand that, considering he refused to let his medical records be freely seen before he got the nomination.
 
Look at the stats they do not lie, people in Canada die of cancer way before us in the USA. Due to their healthcare, now the whole world even if they have socialized medicine benefits from America being a free enterprise system, it is our inovations and research that the whole world uses. Again, it may be repeated over and over but it is true, no one races to any other country for health care, but America there is a reason. By the same token it is not right that poor Americans die from simple things that is what we must change.
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Thank you abcdefg.  I agree with you.
 
I also don't want my health care records out there for the whole medical community to see. 
 
If Obama won't show us his birth certificate then why should our medical records be on a central data base?
 
Gee, do you think they'll put Barney Frank in charge of messing this up too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 11:22pm
ELVER
 
 If I don't agree with you about Obamacare & don't think it is right for this country then I must be lying or deceiving someone?

 

Didn’t say that Elver, I am simply exposing an intentional lie that was designed to scare our senior citizens, that’s all. If it is your opinion that this is not a lie than lets here it, the bill and text are posted.

 

If I don't agree with you about Obamacare then I must be pushing some agenda?

 

Agreeing or disagreeing is one thing Elver, and there are certainly different agendas. But the use of outright lies to further an agenda is wrong, surely you know this, no matter what side of the conversation you are on.

 

If I don't agree with you about Obamacare then I'm being dishonst?

 

Again didn’t say that, what I am saying is those who are perpetrating this kind of filth into the debate are wrong and using outright lies to scare people to your side is wrong no matter who it is. If you have a different opinion lets here it

 

All of us have rights to our opinions whether they are agreeable with Obamacare or not!

Elver all I am doing is dispelling a political tactic of Deception and Fear, and in this case a huge lie intended to scare a large portion of our society (Seniors). What are you saying I think is that the lie is not a lie and that is your opinion. Well where are your facts. The Term End of life counseling is not new to this bill or healthcare and has been clearly defined, why don’t you show us all where it says

(government-encouraged euthanasia) or (people in Medicare have a required counseling session that will tell them how to end their life sooner)

 
 
And in the end if this reform does end up getting past of od this filth, if you stil disagree

Guess what

You can keep your private insurance.

That’s called choice, which apparently your against.

"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2009 at 11:55pm
"I hope I shall possess firmness and virtue enough to maintain, what I consider the most enviable of all titles, the character of an honest man. Your honesty influences others to be honest."

George Washington, American president (1732-1799)
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Originally posted by Mahshadin Mahshadin wrote:

You can keep your private insurance.

WRONG!
 
You can keep your private insurance unless you have kids, get married etc. They can't get on your private healthcare, instead they're forced to get on the government's dime instead.
 
Let me give you an example Mahshadin: Before I got deployed I had to go to get a new Driver's license and to the bank on the same day. When I went to the bank the girl working there was professional, curteous, and efficient. I was in and out of there in ten minutes. There were ten people in line in front of me and there were five windows.
 
When I went to the DMV I had to take a number and sit behind ten people. They had twenty windows, 75% were occupied, but only five people were being seen. The rest of the workers were either screwing around or dealing with the mountains of beuracracy. One lady was making quite the show of eating three pudding snack cups at her desk behind the window. After the show she sat back and b.s.'d with her friend for five more minutes, then FINALLY got around to calling a number. After about an hour of stewing my number was called and I was treated as if I were crap covered bubblegum stuck to the bottom of this, and I use the term loosely, person's shoe. The woman was not only rude in the extreme, but totally unprofessional, and she screwed around for twenty more minutes before I finally got out of that hellhole.
 
What's the difference? At the bank, I'm a customer. If they screw up to the same magnitude the DMV does I'll remove my money and take my business elsewhere. At the DMV you're just a number and theirs is the only show in town. Where else am I going to go to get a Driver's license?
 
Mahshadin, when was the last time you ever went to an inner city county hospital? Better yet, when was the last time you went to the Social Security office? I had to go for part of my background check before I could become a police officer. Both of which are unmitigated disasters. The same disaster that you're looking to inflict on everyone else. People that are clamoring for government health care lack personal integrity and simply don't deal with the government.
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Originally posted by Mary008 Mary008 wrote:

 
Now dearie... you are old as heck and you can end it now if you like...and i will be back next week to talk with you all over again about ending it all.... and if this illness becomes life threaten in I'l be back every other day to c-h-a-t with you about ending it all.  OK? . and.... did your Doctor tell you about how this operation has a 50 percent chance of killing you anyway?   You may want to think about that dearie.   and here is a video on it, never mind the part at the begining that tells you the FBI could fine you or put you in jail...that is just a requirement of....every....single....DVD.... watched .... in.... the.... entire..... USA. 
did it seem like the discussions were excessive?   Oh it could just be an error... errors happen all the time when so much government intervention is in every aspect of your life...
just a little side thing from being taken care of  :)
 
 
I am for it.... I am against it.      (I wish I was rich.)


Mary, there is something not right. I can tell you and show you objectively of the general mood and tone of things five years ago as opposed to now- and it is not the same.

The suicide rate in this state has increased a great deal. The rate also in the ranks of policeman and people who are in the thick of it is going up. The structure of the family, the article in Times about marriage and the 'unfaithful' where it is like a Cosmopolitan vogue for people to become Pagan, to raise their children alone without husbands who are reduced to nasty to think about creatures which has to be expunged from peoples lives.

People act eternal ill tempered, irritated, short fused, annoyed, impatient.

It was not always so.

In the hamburger place sitting in a 1957 chevy- contemplating where to cruise and feeling this sense of excitement and something new and wonderful is about to happen- that was real. That was alive.

Generation X,Y,Z - each one having a little less caring, sharing, hope, love, identity, morality, faith in God and belief in the future. That is real.

The Fall of the Rome Empire like its building did not occur in a single day. Over decades and in some cases, centuries. Perhaps some, so limited by their four score and ten cannot see the pattern- but it is not now as it was when the Arabs lay their guns in the sand in Iraq and the popularity of our president soared to dizzying heights.

How annoyed we are all with the bipolor, the anxious, the disturbed, the mental hyper ventilators, ready to put a bag over their head because they are annoying.

I had a dream and I was walking through a street strewn with bodies dead from disease. I was alone and I carried an Uzi and I could not tell the dead they had been wrong and I could not count them, could not hope to ever bury them, because they were without number.

Write it in a novel- but wait- that's already been done.

People fidget, take their Xanax, and quietly our nations become drugged and anesthetized to life- we go out less- gas is expensive- and the movie house is closed- we have .. video killed the radio star.

Are we somehow linked together? Is this sense of something about to happening as unfounded, unbiased as the lack of deaths in a hugely infective disease?

Tell the truth- are you ill today? Do you feel weak and listless and a sense of wanting to go lay down and not think about anything-not worry? You are not alone.

It is a creeping disease. And much like the apathetics in an old sci fi flick with Sean Connery called Zardoz- the Lotus eaters-immortal become bored with life.

Once upon a time there was JFK and Marilyn Monroe and Mae West and - the Beatles- and well- z generation may know about them as history. Now there 11 year olds with guns, smoking crack, watching programs with hundreds of people dying by the hour and dreaming of sex, money, and power. And knowing one phrase - I, me, my.

So in trying to impart a sense of urgency and danger to those half asleep, we become irritating, irrational, and concerned without reason.

Maybe it is a sense of foreboding in a world which has ceased to believe in that which is magical, supernatural, or a loss of the sense of wonder. We are those, who while the world is beautiful, no denying it,  have come to worship the tree, more than the creator who made all trees.

Maybe it is a society that reeks of Prozac, having frightened the children with those too hyper or too intense fights as their pain medications or drugs wear off late into the night. And the drug-medical-insurance megapower which first addicts and then forbids making the price of chemical induced happiness higher and higher. Finally saying, you don't need to be free of pain, as 100,000,000 Americans suffer each day from chronic pain.  Anti-depressants which cause depression, anti-psychotics which make you crazy, and with the coming of the baby boomer Valium generation which has now morphed into its sister Xanax- we are dancing as fast as we can. They shoot horses don't they? That is after the Danse Macabre.

It is leaders, like in 1984 with Soma that wish to dull the senses so the sheep will not be disturbing by the few remaining  roaring and the running lions. There is no place for roaring lions anymore in politics, there is no place for males charged with testosterone in an estrogen world, unless all can be both.

It is not cool to be cool, or even safe to be different. The music is soothing in the vans that approach sausage city. There is no threat of death in the Pandemic. We have been lulled into a state of quiet peace by those who do not wish to awaken a quiet nursery of sleeping children.  They are making lists and as in THX1138 eventually some don't take their medicine and awake in the harsh Sunday morning light to see how things really are. They are the dangerous ones.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AandEmommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 6:17am
One point I believe that many are trying to make is that reform does not have to be all or nothing.  We tend to assume that making any changes at all will result in single payer universal health care. that is going to be free to everyone.  That is not even on the table, SO QUIT WORRYING ABOUT IT.  I thought that one of our "American Principles" was competition in the free market.  Well, every job I have ever had has offered me the choice of 1 insurance company and up to 4 plans that get far worse as they become even slightly affordable.  Where is the competition in that?  These companies have huge monopolies.  And, their overhead expenses are often times close to 30%.  Insurance companies need to do a much better job, and they won't without a push.  Why would they want to change now?  They are making record profits.   There are hundreds of ways to force more competition into the market, only some of which involve offering (not forcing you to choose) a government run program.  We need to find a program that actually MAKES SENSE. 

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Originally posted by AandEmommy AandEmommy wrote:

These companies have huge monopolies. 
 
I've got an idea! Let's replace a monopoly with a government run one! Great idea!
 
It worked *SO* well for the U.S.S.R., Canada, the UK, etc why shouldn't it work for us!?!
 
It doesn't work you say? My bad. Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 6:51am
Originally posted by Turboguy Turboguy wrote:

Originally posted by AandEmommy AandEmommy wrote:

These companies have huge monopolies. 
 
I've got an idea! Let's replace a monopoly with a government run one! Great idea!
 
It worked *SO* well for the U.S.S.R., Canada, the UK, etc why shouldn't it work for us!?!
 
It doesn't work you say? My bad. Confused


History is not a great favorite in the current education system. For one- it is almost impossible to get an accurate history of the last 50 years in terms of who did what and why. We have armies deployed to stop a repeat of the Holy Wars. We have group denial that anyone wants to take over the planet when a dozen groups do. So far, we are still in charge.

The last two elections were almost too close to count. None of the current administrations were a representative mandate of the people. Our current foreign policy is something set in motion a decade ago- continues purely by momentum. If you will look at history, in such a period, you will see all the elements of the approach of a huge change. If there truly emerges an extreme Pandemic, it will set off the beginning of that change.

Med
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 9:56am
 and simply don't deal with the government.
.................................
 
 
this I can agree with...    we need to ask ourselves...  before the Govt takes over the Health Care.  I want to see what they can do to repair our tax system... to make it fair.
 
     If they can't fix that FIRST.      Hands off Health Care. 
 
.....................................
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Facilitator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 12:32pm
Turboguy,
So, what is your plan and opinion about the topic at hand?
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ANNOUNCMENT
 
Important Scientific Discovery Made
 
In a double blind test conducted in the US
Age groups
 
25 (14-35  Years old)
25 (36-60  Years old)
25 (61- ??) Years old)
 
It has been determined that this thread dirrectly or indirectly links to the musical (Pink Floyd the Wall---Disc 1).
 
Procedure for verification
Connect to Internet---Enter AFT.com---Selct General Discussion (Select)---Enter Discion Scaring Seniors (Right or Wrong)--- Do not begin reading yet---Set volume of stereo at low to maderate levels (3)---Load CD---Return to seat with remote---Hit play on CD Remote---Be sure to have reciever remote close by for volume adjustments to optimal level---When music begins-Enter the debate by reading all posts from all users who have been kind enough to enter the dicussion.
 
 
________________________
 
On the Lighter Side
 
________________________
 
SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile
WinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWink
LOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
 
 
 
 
_______________________________________________________
DSICLAIMER: 
 
The author intends no or imlies support for any conspiracy theory Created or implied through interpritation. Nor will said Author make attempts at any menaing, association, imlpied character, Blah, Blah, Blah
 
THIS IS A JOKE
 
Entertainment Value Only
 
PLEASE DO NOT TAKE OFFENSE
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Facilitator Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 1:01pm
Turboguy,
I hardly every go to the Doctor because I can't afford it. (I have insurance) and still can't afford to go to a Doctor with that.  Also, when I have gone I have had to wait 2 or more months for an appointment and that was before trying to find a Doctor that accepts my insurance. Mmmmm. A Doctor that accepts any insurance even government????? As for going to the Dentist. I would have to take out a second mortgage for that. Oh yeah! I can't get a second mortgage because my house is now worth less than I owe. (Banks) As for the DMV that is an individual state issue. Online works for me because I have done the DMV thing. No money from the state buget to employ people. This goes for teachers and police offers like yourself. We are all in the same boat there. Actually, I would be a lot nicer to people that I serve if I was getting a pay raise, a bonus etc. instead of a pay cut.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 1:10pm
P.S.
 
You should be on song 12 by now
 
At the end of the song remove the word Wall and insert the word Lie
 
 WinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWinkWink
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by AandEmommy AandEmommy wrote:

One point I believe that many are trying to make is that reform does not have to be all or nothing.  We tend to assume that making any changes at all will result in single payer universal health care. that is going to be free to everyone.  That is not even on the table, SO QUIT WORRYING ABOUT IT.  I thought that one of our "American Principles" was competition in the free market.  Well, every job I have ever had has offered me the choice of 1 insurance company and up to 4 plans that get far worse as they become even slightly affordable.  Where is the competition in that?  These companies have huge monopolies.  And, their overhead expenses are often times close to 30%.  Insurance companies need to do a much better job, and they won't without a push.  Why would they want to change now?  They are making record profits.   There are hundreds of ways to force more competition into the market, only some of which involve offering (not forcing you to choose) a government run program.  We need to find a program that actually MAKES SENSE. 

_______________________________________________________________________
 
They already had the push (1990s) and where has that gotten us.
 
In fairness the Insurance Corps are not making record profits, but they are extremely profitable, they take a large piece of the pie considering they have nothing to do with your healthcare other than manging the money.
 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Who Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 8:15pm
The law does not mandate the meetings (most of the time). But it does mandate that when a meeting takes place the doctor must include discussions of ending life certain ways. The potential for abuse by someone is ripe. The section of the law that this is a part of is the section on saving money not the section on extending benefits, hmmm?

Doctors will be pressured to save money. Pres Obama has used as an example of saving money denying care to the elderly and has even quantified it by saying that if the treatment is 5% likely to not work it will be denied. What other criteria will be used to deny treatment?

When the doctor must meet his quotas, and the state must save its money, and the individual is not in their full state of mind, and some politician gets a little to zealous, and when life is treated too calously, then what do you think will happen at least some of the time?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2009 at 10:27pm
The Peerfect World Argument
 
So where do we find this perfect world now??
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2009 at 3:29am
Facilitator: Here's my plan. Have the Government create a public insurance program that is payed for only by those that partake in it, in direct competition with current insurance. As the government can go considerably lower in prices other insurance companies will have to follow suit to remain competitive. Let the market work. I totally agree that the insurance companies could stand to get knocked down a peg or two, but if you totally scrap the free market and add oodles of government garbage it will be far, far more expensive as the medical industry begins suckling at the massive government teat.
 
If you want government run healthcare, fine by me! Have it, take it, and enjoy it, but don't force me along with you, and you'd damn well better not have me forced to pay for your healthcare by doubling my taxes. I already pay far more than my share.
 
Also there's the glaring failures known as Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security. These are government run healthcare plans and they're a money hole. How will Obamacare be any different?
 
And for Mahshadin: Until you can explain in real english these two questions, you haven't got any real leg to stand on:
 
1. Why is it that Congress specifically exempted themselves from Obamacare as written in the law?
 
2. Why did they attempt to push this bill through Congress as fast as they could without even making a paltry attempt at reading it and allowing the public to take a real look at it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hotair Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2009 at 11:55am
The same reason they shoved a massive stimulus bill through and didn't read it.We are in trouble.Big time.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2009 at 5:52pm
Turboguy
 
1.    Why is it that Congress specifically exempted themselves from Obamacare as written in the law?

 

I am not sure what your asking for, are you saying there should be mandates for groups of people like federal employees. This is exactly what the right wanted in the bill, protection for Insurance Corporations, which for the most part I dont disagree with.

 

Please explain who would be mandated, and will this make the right less happy or more? Maybe I just read your post incorrectly, please define?

 

 

2. Why did they attempt to push this bill through Congress as fast as they could without even making a paltry attempt at reading it and allowing the public to take a real look at it?

 
It is called the legislative process, the bill was designated to 5  Commitees for detailed work by appointed people from both parties, with the majority holding most of the control (Obviously). Hav ing a sound majority of course quickens the process, and having a subject Healthcare which has been a problem for more than 10 years , its not like there were not working constructs already being used to put it all together.  And besides this is not the done deal it is just the first step in a long process, and even in a best case scenario there will be no done deal probably until November. Next the senate gets to go over the house bill come up with there own bill, then they go to committee and haggle over details until there is a done deal.  As far as the President goes he would be a fool and a terrible manager if he did not try to set some form of deadline, this is Washington, and setting a date which concluded there work before going back to districts was a smart and appropriate thing to do.
 

Now having said that you are probably correct on this one as Americans have reacted with hesitance at the speed at which Government is working (Now theres an oxymoron). One minute we telling them they are to slow and cant get anything done and then spin around and now were saying slow down. Boy wouldnt want to be in their shoes. It would be a muc more productive process if we could have the conversation without deceptive and outright dishonest apporach from some.

Dont you worry though, thing s will be slowed to a crawl in the senate where no real solid majority exists. And then they will have to compromise before any finished product is done, like I said, best case scenario is probably November even if everything was clear sailing.
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 3:35am
1. I'm asking you why they exempted themselves. Why did they specifically write into the bill that congresspeople would not have to be part of the Obamacare fiasco? Is it because the care they receive now is far, far better than what they'd receeive under a socialistic program? If this is the greatest thing since sliced bread, why wouldn't they want to partake of the greatness this program brings about?
 
2. No, the legislative process involves debate. This bill was pushed through the legislative process so fast that nobody voting on it was actually able to read it. Further after the massive distrust the rush through congress the Porkulus bill caused, why is anyone going to trust them now? Particularly when they're talking about completely overhauling something like healthcare. The problem we're seeing is only partially lies, from both sides I might add.
 
The majority of the issues are specifically because the "Right" as you say slowed down the process and gave the people the time that was necessary to fully read what was being proposed. Once people started actually reading is when the problems kicked off, not before.
 
If they wrote a bill that wasn't a corrupt scam with every idiot liberal pet project attached the fight we're seeing right now wouldn't be so encompassing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vistahealth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 7:50am
20% of the budget  is the current amount of money that the federal govt spends on health care, yet by even their own standard Medicare and Medicaid are bloated and fraud ridden. Now were to let the feds create an opt in health plan to cover the 45 million uninsured. About 30% of those uninsured are between 19-29 (mostly youth who feel they don’t need coverage) about another 1/3 are in between jobs (lost coverage and cannot afford cobra) and the remaining 15 million are those that need health care. The govt is paying 65% of cobra up to 9 months, let’s have them extend it.  Have insurance companies cover kids till age 29 under their family plan and those that truly need it, should be covered through Medicaid. Let’s have the govt first fix Medicaid and Medicare before they even begin to discuss the creation of another health plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 9:02am
Originally posted by vistahealth vistahealth wrote:

20% of the budget  is the current amount of money that the federal govt spends on health care, yet by even their own standard Medicare and Medicaid are bloated and fraud ridden. Now were to let the feds create an opt in health plan to cover the 45 million uninsured. About 30% of those uninsured are between 19-29 (mostly youth who feel they don’t need coverage) about another 1/3 are in between jobs (lost coverage and cannot afford cobra) and the remaining 15 million are those that need health care. The govt is paying 65% of cobra up to 9 months, let’s have them extend it.  Have insurance companies cover kids till age 29 under their family plan and those that truly need it, should be covered through Medicaid. Let’s have the govt first fix Medicaid and Medicare before they even begin to discuss the creation of another health plan.
 
That right there is a post full o' win my friend.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2009 at 11:23am
I find it ironic that you Turboguy who currently have (GOVERNMENT HEALTHCARE), you know that scary oppressive marxist sytem is in here arguing against every one else getting what you already have.
 
Perhaps sinse your so against anything organized at the national level you should pperhaps refuse to use it and purchase a private plan..
 
But then again you would be out of netwrok, screwed like the rest of us.
 
 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vistahealth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 6:08am
A question that most Americans don't ask is what is the dollar value of health insurance.  In New York State, health insurance is community rated, meaning insurance companies cannot discriminate based on age, gender & health.  As such, all new yorkers pay top dollar for their health care. Community rating is by far the most non-discriminatory approach. If the Govt does implement a universal plan costs will mirror that of New York state plans.  As always , the burden will be on the taxpayers. Health insurance costs wont go down because of insuring those that don't have coverage. the only way to reduce costs is to force all involved in the health care industry to cap profits and salaries (good luck with that !)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 10:41am
The Govt.  has to bring Corporations back into the mix ... via a percentage tax according to profit... to help pay for Health Care.  And get the wealthy to pay a straight percentage on income tax... time for reform.  Why not implement the tax reform right away ... what is the hold up?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mary008 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 10:50am
please go here and write in your good ideas...
 
 
It could help .
 
 
 
 
 
...................
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote vistahealth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 12:57pm
Originally posted by Mary008 Mary008 wrote:

The Govt.  has to bring Corporations back into the mix ... via a percentage tax according to profit... to help pay for Health Care.  And get the wealthy to pay a straight percentage on income tax... time for reform.  Why not implement the tax reform right away ... what is the hold up?


In New York State they just raised the health insurance tax on businesses, bringing it to the third highest tax on record after payroll and corporate tax. How does a 57% tax bite on the wealthy sound. i know alot of people don't have a problem with that  but that is excessive. Lets not forget that the baby boomers starting next year will be moving onto medicare (it just keeps getting better  Cry).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote debracanice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2009 at 7:05pm
They never will change the American Healthcare and I think that the Insurance compqanies coudnt of done this any better ,
Obama is not someone the Amnerican people will trust ewith their healthcare
so the insurance companies win
 
If every American really just looked around at how the rest of the modernized countries handle their healthcare they would of forced thge goverment to change it
Instead the focas in on Obama and it bury the issue behide a whole lot of fears and misconceptions .
 
In the end the status quo will stay the same
Truth is I dont care as long as you keep your system their and dont try to force us to have a two tier system  
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