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debracanice
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Posted: August 12 2009 at 7:13pm |
In the end you will stay the same ,
Your being fed so much fear and just crap you will never have Universal Healthcare
Obama was the worst president to promote healthcare in fact I think the insurance companies must be just loving this .
One day the American will wake up and realized they paid hundred of thousand each for heathcare no for insurance fees , for coverage that is not really quaranteed .
When the Cananda have been fighting to keep your system out of their country .
I love to see what happens when the average american realizes he been feed a bunch of crap by the insurance comapnies
You do realize the women in those comercial only had a cyst not a brain tumour .
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Mary008
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Posted: August 12 2009 at 10:07pm |
on a modest income I paid out of pocket over a period of 8 yrs... 50,000.00 for healthcare... and I am healthy, do not smoke or drink, active, swim, walk... take no meds just vitamins. I think Govt Health Care might have saved me a bit over that same 8 years :) ... Are we ready to try something different? there is a lot of fear. And not enough answers.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 12 2009 at 10:17pm |
There should be more shame,but there isnt
All for me and Me for I
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Hotair
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Posted: August 13 2009 at 12:40pm |
I have to wade in here.I want a change in health care.The insurance companies have been running rampant for years.Our insurance just went up to 1,645.00 per month.We are going to change our plan but will probably have to switch to a catatsophic plan we can afford.We can.t switch providers as my son is autistic and is on Concerta which would cost us 1,500.00 for 100 tablets if we paid for it.We are a middle class couple who both work really hard and get really frustrated when we hear about the illegal aliens getting free health care we are paying for as well.I know someone who was diagnosed with M.S. who is now in bankruptcy because of her medical bills--and she had Blue Cross.I am not saying I approve of what Obama has done but if he can at least change some part of this whole equation, I applaud him!!!!!
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Hotair
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Posted: August 13 2009 at 12:41pm |
At least he has created debate on the matter.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 13 2009 at 1:52pm |
Hotair wrote:
I have to wade in here.I want a change in health care.The insurance companies have been running rampant for years.Our insurance just went up to 1,645.00 per month.We are going to change our plan but will probably have to switch to a catatsophic plan we can afford.We can.t switch providers as my son is autistic and is on Concerta which would cost us 1,500.00 for 100 tablets if we paid for it.We are a middle class couple who both work really hard and get really frustrated when we hear about the illegal aliens getting free health care we are paying for as well.I know someone who was diagnosed with M.S. who is now in bankruptcy because of her medical bills--and she had Blue Cross.I am not saying I approve of what Obama has done but if he can at least change some part of this whole equation, I applaud him!!!!! |
________________________________________________________________________
You are absolutely right Hotair, and there are thousands & thousands of stories just like yours, to bad there is not a CORPORATION to fund the telling of these stories. Perhaps then people would understand, we have allowed an Industry to price us right out of our health. Absolutely Insane
But instead we get bogus ads and intentional lies intended to scare people into becoming (Insurance Corporation Mouthpieces).
As far as the Illegal Allien thing, I completely agree with you, it is just plain abuse of a compassionate people (USA) at this point. and this has far reaching implications beyond Healthcare like Education, and National Security.
At some point you have to say Enough is Enough.
But thats a discussion for another day, I would probably guess around the Spring if we can get Healthcare done without starting a Civil War.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Dr.Who
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Posted: August 13 2009 at 2:44pm |
AandEmommy wrote:
One point I believe that many are trying to make is that reform does not have to be all or nothing. We tend to assume that making any changes at all will result in single payer universal health care. that is going to be free to everyone. That is not even on the table, SO QUIT WORRYING ABOUT IT. I thought that one of our "American Principles" was competition in the free market. Well, every job I have ever had has offered me the choice of 1 insurance company and up to 4 plans that get far worse as they become even slightly affordable. Where is the competition in that? These companies have huge monopolies. And, their overhead expenses are often times close to 30%. Insurance companies need to do a much better job, and they won't without a push. Why would they want to change now? They are making record profits. There are hundreds of ways to force more competition into the market, only some of which involve offering (not forcing you to choose) a government run program. We need to find a program that actually MAKES SENSE.
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It is not secret that this proposed bill is not single payer but that it is a step on the road toward single payer. That is the main intention of the plan. They tell us that the main goal is to contain costs, increase quality, and extend care to all - but the bill does none of those things and the congressmen want it anyway. Yes your employer sponsored plan does not offer you enough choice. That is precisely because congress created this situation. Before congress muddied up the water you bought your own insurance from whomever you wanted to buy it from - today you would have had a choice of over 3000 companies. Are insurance companies bad? Do you know whose job it is to keep insurance companies from trampling on the rights of American citizens? Why it is the governments job to keep, not only insurance companies, but any other entity from trampling on your rights. If the insurance companies are bad then, again, you have congress to blame.
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Mary008
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Posted: August 13 2009 at 3:33pm |
.
Just who are they? A 2007 National Study
excerpts-
Medical Bankruptcies
Mean age 44.9 years
Married 46.3 %
Attended college 60.3%
Current homeowner 52.0%
Market value of home (mean) $141,861
Monthly income $2225 - $2586
(26,700 yr) - (31,032 yr)
............
Most medical debtors were well educated, owned homes, and had middle-class
occupations. Three quarters had health insurance.
Using identical definitions in 2001 and 2007, the share of bankruptcies attributable to medical problems rose by 49.6%.
CONCLUSIONS: Illness and medical bills contribute to a large and increasing share of US bankruptcies. (AJM)
62.1% of all bankruptcies have a medical
cause.
Between our 2001 and 2007 surveys, Congress enacted the
Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act
(BAPCPA), which instituted an income screen and procedural
barriers that made filing more difficult and expensive.
American Journal Of Medicine
source
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 2:26am |
Since you posted two points, I'll tackle them each in turn...
debracanice wrote:
In the end you will stay the same ,
Your being fed so much fear and just crap you will never have Universal Healthcare
Obama was the worst president to promote healthcare in fact I think the insurance companies must be just loving this . |
Maybe, maybe. I don't think it's because he's a crappy president, I think it's because he and Congress went about this all wrong. They want to completely throw out everything and FORCE people to do whatever the government wants them to do. Instead of radically changing the system to the garbage Socialist disaster that is the Canadian system we could have set up a hybrid that would have been fair to all.
Debracan wrote:
One day the American will wake up and realized they paid hundred of thousand each for heathcare no for insurance fees , for coverage that is not really quaranteed . |
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here... But I think you're trying to say that we Americans are paying for insurance fees instead of for actual healthcare. This is true, but the fact of the matter is that you too are paying, you just get it taken out of your paychecks in taxes. Your government is basically holding a gun to your head and telling you to pay up or die. Americans and Canadians are radically different in this respect.
DebraCan wrote:
When the Cananda have been fighting to keep your system out of their country .
I love to see what happens when the average american realizes he been feed a bunch of crap by the insurance comapnies You do realize the women in those comercial only had a cyst not a brain tumour . |
Wrong. Canadians that make laws are the wealthy of your country. The United States is a convenient place for the wealthy to come to get the best healthcare in the world without having to wait for it as they would in Canada. Some would argue that everyone should get the level of care the wealthy receive in the U.S., and I happen to agree with them, but putting the government in charge of the industry wouldn't give everyone that awesome healthcare, quite the opposite, it would drag the top down to everyone else's level.
DebraCan wrote:
Obama is not someone the Amnerican people will trust ewith their healthcare
so the insurance companies win |
No, it's not just Obama. It's our entire congress. It was very telling when Claire McCaskill asked a "Town Hall" full of her constituents did they trust her. The entire crowd shouted out, "NO!!!" So the bottom line, is that the Insurance companies are crap, but the government is even worse.
DebraCan wrote:
Instead the focas in on Obama and it bury the issue behide a whole lot of fears and misconceptions . |
You're a Canadian and don't have many facts if this is what you believe. It has nothing to do with Obama, regardless of what you or the media wants you to believe. The problem is that people started reading the bill and freaked out. Sure some people are against it because they're against Obama, but the vast majority are against it because tehy don't want the amount of change and government control they're looking to inflict on us.
DebraCan wrote:
Truth is I dont care as long as you keep your system their and dont try to force us to have a two tier system |
You keep alluding to the U.S. wanting to export our healthcare system to Canada and I am at a complete loss as to what you're talking about. The only thing we want is trade for Alberta's oil. The rest of Canada, especially your rather crazy laws and insane taxes we really don't care about. You seem to think that the U.S. has any bearing whatsoever on the internal politics of Canada, when that couldn't be further from the truth. So you keep your system, we'll keep ours and you'll just have to deal with your wealthy people flying to America for quality healthcare while everyone else up there suffers.
Oh and we'll take newfoundland too, they've got a surplus of unbelievably attractive women.
And lastly:
fedupinhouston@DU.com wrote:
Hey - if you ever want to find out what its really like down here, come on over. Assuming you have some beneficial skill or another it should not be too difficult for you to immigrate. Then you could actually VOTE in our elections rather than simply whining about them. |
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 10:47am |
The focus has shifted, now the attempts to justify the lie, and others are even escalating the lie (Death Camps), and this person was a half a step away from being the President of the United States (Good Lord). The party has taken a stance of no matter what they say, no matter how far they go, no matter what lies they tell, they will just continue to justify them with even more ridiculous deceptions. We just finished 8 years of this people. The Party Of Self Deception as it has become lately. The Party I grew up with was quite different and much of its policy direction was based on a fundamental (Moral Compass) and real set of (Conservative Values). These basic principles do not require Dishonesty or a belief in Deception to gain and hold Political Power.
(Self Deception)
And it wasnt about people reading the bill and getting scared Turboguy, it was the Right reading the bill, fabricating a lie with the intent to scare people (Our Seniors). Plain and simple, and until we acknowledge this, and start yanking these people from public service, we will continue to be lied to, and Nothing Will get done.
(Self Fulfilling Prophecy).
So what has happened because of this Intentional Lie intended to Scare our Seniors. Now it will be removed from the Reform package and much needed End of Life Discussions will not be covered. Which by the way was Voluntary!!!
(A) An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
(B) An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
(C) An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
(D) The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning.
(E) An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.
(F) An explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders
_______________________________________________________________________
Boy lets just march down to the Republican Party Office and sign up for more of this huh!
This is exactly why I have become an Independent. If you have to resort to Lies, Fear, and Fallacies to get support for your ideology, then your ideology is Bankrupt by definition.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Hotair
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 11:29am |
I am disgusted with all politics and parties right now.It seems that everyone are acting like a bunch of children.
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Mary008
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 11:35am |
Hotair...
I am disgusted with all politics and parties right now.It seems that everyone are acting like a bunch of children.
.................................................
with power :O
I will be putting up different views on US Health Care...
(Not My Endorsement of Any OK?)
Just wanting people to realize the MAGNITUDE of the Healthcare Problem.
from the UK... BBC (video on American Health Crisis in 3 parts) scroll down for parts 2 & 3
............
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 11:59am |
No Mahshadin, people started reading the bill that was pushed far faster than anyone wanted and didn't like what they saw. The problems that the Democrats are facing right now stem from the indisputable fact that they were trying to push a bill through that not only did they not read before trying to vote, but could not have read had they sat up day and night for a week! I remember a certain Patriot act that I'm sure you were lamenting just as loudly that got the same treatment, and it was a bad bill to put it mildly.
Your attacks against Republicans is laughable. It's not a Republican vs. Democrat one, it's a "We The People" vs. an idiotic congress and President that is of the opinion that everything they do is somehow sanctified by a higher power. They are so detached from the American people that they are actually surprised that they're getting questioned, much less shouted down. The fact of the matter is that people were ***sed at the Porkulus bill, it was a plain old giveaway to political friends, and now they tried this garbage and it's biting them hard.
You're no Independant if you really believe the rhetoric you're spewing here. A real Republican is supposed to be Fiscally conservative while socially liberal, the exact opposite of everything you've espoused thus far in your rants about SOCIALIZED healthcare. You claim to have Conservative values, but what part of government taking control of the Medical Industry and GROWING ever larger is Conservative? Conservatives believe in limited government intrusion into their lives. The Government taking over something as large as healthcare is hardly limited intrusion. You're a Liberal dude, probably Green. I knew you were the moment you said, "Birthers" and "Tea-baggers." I'm the kind of person that calls a duck a duck and a spade a spade, and you're no Conservative.
I'm sorry Mahshadin, I know you're an extremely intelligent person, but you simply do not know what is best for me or anyone but yourself. This bill you've attached yourself to gives the government the ability to say that they know what's best for you and forces people to do something they may or may not want to do.
Now you're lamenting the removal of this "Piece" of legislation from what was nearly an omnibus bill. If this is good legislation it should theoretically be able to stand on its own. Am I wrong? Good legislation shouldn't have to be attached to a massive pork bill to get through. Besides the Democrats have a filibuster proof majority, what's stopping them from just ramming it through? Quit your crying and let's see what happens.
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ejayb
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 12:42pm |
The healthcare reform plan they are working on has many provisions that can end up in the final law if people don't 1) read the freakin thing and 2) use their brain to work through the potential for abuse of the proposed changes. Then you fight for what you like and against what you don't.
The end-of-life issue is one component subject to scary abuse. If doctors are paid/encouraged/mandated to discuss advance directives on a regular basis with seniors (every 5 years or upon a significant change in health) then what is the next step if patients repeatedly "decline" advance directives or are not what the physician considers to be "realistic" in their prognosis? How will it affect their care? Will there be a point when they are denied care similiar to alcoholics being refused a new liver?
If a doctor or other medical professional in a geriatric facility continually briefed a patient about DNRs, DNHs, living wills, etc every time they had a significant change they would be violating patients rights and could lose their job, get sued, or have their license revoked and rightfully so. Patients are briefed on advance directives as are their families upon admission to a facility. If the patient or family decides to create the documents great, if not then that is their response. It is their right.
I personally would not want my final years to include being hooked up to a g-tube, visiting dialysis 3 days a week or wheeling around an O2 tank. But people should be able to live their choice without the dotgov asking "are you sure?", "are you super dooper sure?" at every turn.
And since I have seen patients that I was 95% sure were on their way to a "celestial discharge" but instead recovered and went home, who's to say they are wrong for hanging on? Oh wait, the congress and federal government can say if they are wrong.
As for the political shills posting here, I don't trust either side 100% or even 50%. Even tho the system needs to be fixed, it will not be changed for the positive unless ALL sides are heard. That is not being done under Obama, it wasn't being done under Bush or Clinton either. That's why it keeps getting screwed up worse each time it's messed with.
If you are shut out of the conversation, you are going to ramp it up
until you are heard. People were ignored on the bailouts in 08 and ridiculed
over the 'tea parties" in 09. The politicians got away with it because people didn't see how more money being printed would affect them. Now we are talking about healthcare and everyone knows it's an issue that directly affects their lives and their families. I don't see people accepting being told to "shut up" on this one.
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Mary008
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 1:07pm |
of the opinion that everything they do is somehow sanctified by a higher power.
......................................................................
.
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King Charles the first thought he was Godly....
Leading wise men to flee England.... the birth of the USA.
.....................................................
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 2:38pm |
GOP backs away from end-of-life counseling
By BEN EVANS, Associated Press Writer Ben Evans, Associated Press Writer – 2 hrs 43 mins ago
WASHINGTON – Until last week, Republican Sen. Johnny Isakson was among the most enthusiastic backers of end-of-life counseling in government health care programs like Medicare.
That was before conservatives called it a step toward euthanasia and former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin likened the idea to a bureaucratic "death panel" that would decide whether sick people get to live. And even though those claims have been widely discredited, the issue remains a political weapon in the increasingly bitter health care debate.
Now, Isakson and other Republicans who eagerly backed the idea are distancing themselves from it or lying low in the face of a backlash from the right.
"Until last week this was basically a nonpartisan issue," said John Rother, executive vice president for policy at AARP, the seniors lobbying group. "People across the political spectrum recognize that far too often people's wishes aren't respected at the end of life and there is a lot of unnecessary suffering."
The idea for government-backed end-of-life counseling — while delicate given the subject matter — has garnered significant consensus on Capitol Hill, fueled in part by cases such as that of Terri Schiavo, whose divided family fought for years over whether she would want to be kept alive in a vegetative state.
Just last summer, Congress overwhelmingly approved legislation requiring doctors to discuss the issue with new Medicare enrollees. And the government already requires hospitals and nursing homes to help patients with advance directives or living wills if they want support, under a 1992 law passed under Republican President George H.W. Bush.
Supporters say the current House proposal just goes one step further by paying for the counseling, with the idea that doctors and patients would spend more time on it instead of just having a cursory discussion in an initial Medicare visit. The counseling is voluntary.
Isakson and other Republicans such as Sens. Richard Lugar of Indiana and Susan Collins of Maine have co-sponsored legislation in recent years promoting the counseling, including in initial Medicare visits and through a proposed government-run insurance program for long-term care.
In the House, Republican Reps. Charles Boustany of Louisiana, Geoff Davis of Kentucky and Patrick Tiberi of Ohio co-sponsored legislation from Rep. Earl Blumenauer, D-Ore., that would authorize Medicare to pay for the counseling. That measure served as a model for the current House language.
Earlier this summer, Isakson sponsored an arguably more far-reaching measure that would have required that new Medicare patients have a living will or other advance directive.
But the Georgia conservative found himself in a storm of criticism when President Barack Obama said at a town hall meeting this week that Isakson was a chief architect of the House approach. Isakson quickly issued a statement repudiating the proposal.
"The House provision is merely another ill-advised attempt at more government mandates, more government intrusion and more government involvement in what should be an individual choice," he said.
Pressed later to explain his opposition, Isakson and his spokeswoman, Joan Kirchner, said he doesn't like the fact that the House bill would expand Medicare costs by paying for the consultations and giving doctors an incentive to conduct them. He also said the House bill is too specific in detailing what must be discussed in the sessions.
"There are similarities ... but there are substantial difference," Isakson said. "I'm not running away from anything but I'm not going to accept the president of the United States telling people I wrote something that I didn't."
Isakson, who initially referred to Palin's criticism of the proposal as "nuts," declined to assail her characterization that the measure would force people like her baby Trig, who has Down syndrome, "to stand in front of Obama's 'death panel' so his bureaucrats can decide ... whether they are worthy of health care."
"The best I can read she's applying the House bill and using her child with Down syndrome as an example," Isakson said. "I would never question anyone's defense of their child."
Spokesmen for Lugar and Collins — two other longtime proponents of end-of-life planning — declined to comment on the House bill.
Sen. Charles Grassley, an Iowa Republican and a lead negotiator on health care legislation, told constituents at a community meeting last week that they have good reason to fear the proposal.
"I don't have any problem with things like living wills, but they ought to be done within the family," he said. "We should not have a government program that determines you're going to pull the plug on grandma."
Grassley said Thursday that lawmakers negotiating on the Senate version of the health care bill had dropped the provision from consideration, citing how it could be misinterpreted.
Comments like Grassley's puzzle Rother, who said "it's been a little disappointing" that more Republicans haven't stepped forward to defend the legislation.
He and Jon Keyserling, a vice president at the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization, say there is little difference between the current proposal and past legislation that Republicans have supported. The current bill specifies that the counseling would be covered only every five years to prevent people from overusing it, and describes what the consultations must include.
Keyserling said many people wrongly assume that end-of-life counseling is about terminating treatment. But it really is about making sure a patient's wishes are known, he said, including if that means continuing life-sustaining treatment in all circumstances.
He said he's been surprised at the backlash, particularly given the close attention that Congress paid to Schiavo's case, which he said clearly highlighted the need for better end-of-life planning.
Schiavo was removed from life support in 2005, though the Republican-led Congress and President George W. Bush had intervened in the family dispute in an effort to continue her care.
"I think the House bill is about as innocuous and helpful as possible," Keyserling said. "It's about making sure people are prepared and informed to make decisions."
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 3:40pm |
Aug 13, 2009 7:46 pm US/Pacific
End-Of-Life Counseling A Must, Doctors Say
SAN FRANCISCO (CBS 5) ―
Former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin defiantly called them "death panels". Now, end-of-life counseling is yanked out of a Senate bill for health care reform. The provision would have paid Medicare doctors a fee to discuss the matter with their patients every five years. Currently many doctors say they don't have the time for these discussions. The provision would have provided them with a financial incentive. Doctors in the Bay Area and across the county are stunned and disappointed. The American Medical Association and the National Hospice and Palliative Care Organization support the end-of-life counseling provision, saying these are discussions we all need to have with loved ones but that the value of this counseling is getting lost in heated rhetoric and politics. This kind of counseling helped Jack Crymes and his family, when Jack battled advanced colon cancer. Jack had been in terrible pain. "It's just excruciating pain. Unbelievable," said Crymes. For Jack, relief came with palliative care, where a team of specialists focus on symptoms, and promote quality of life. "Every morning, about 8 people came into the room to make sure I was okay," said Crymes. Doctor Steve Pantilat heads up the team at UCSF Medical Center. Part of the discussion with families include choices about end of life care. "What you find is they choose care that is more consistent with their values, more consistent with quality of life as they define it," said Dr. Pantilat. Chaplain Denah Joseph helps with spiritual matters and questions. "How can I have a peaceful death with dignity, how can I finish my work, what is important to me in the time that I have left?" said Joseph. Today, this type of care is only available at one out of three hospitals across the state. Yet studies show providing palliative care saves valuable health care dollars. Thirty percent of Medicare dollars are spent on people during the last year of their life. Dr. Pantilat said, "The real problem is for the money we spend we get very poor value." Jack had recently died. His sister Ann Galione appreciated the program. "Palliative care was like the angel of mercy coming to help us out," she said.
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Mary008
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 4:08pm |
This kind of counseling helped Jack Crymes and his family, when Jack battled advanced colon cancer. Jack had been in terrible pain.
"It's just excruciating pain. Unbelievable," said Crymes.
For Jack, relief came with palliative care, where a team of specialists focus on symptoms, and promote quality of life.
"Every morning, about 8 people came into the room to make sure I was okay," said Crymes.
Doctor Steve Pantilat heads up the team at UCSF Medical Center. Part of the discussion with families include choices about end of life care.
..................................
what type of counseling?
Let's get specific... what that guy is addressing sounds more like Hospice Care...
That is the type of counseling they.. can start to pay for... Why is it that the terms used in
important bills ... sound so ill planned and not well thought out?
I could do better...
The Last thing elderly want to address every damn 5 years is END OF LIFE.
Give Me A Break... Hire People With Brains.... To Come Up with Decent Wording Like-
palliative care, ... and......... promote quality of life.
This is why we KNOW the Health Care Bill is not well planned and
Fast Tracked....
...................................
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ejayb
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 5:22pm |
Mahshadin wrote:
The provision would have paid Medicare doctors a fee to discuss the matter with their patients every five years. Currently many doctors say they don't have the time for these discussions. The provision would have provided them with a financial incentive.
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I bet they have time to write another script that they get a piece of the action on. What crap.
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AandEmommy
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 6:54pm |
Well, now that the provision has been yanked from the bill, do I get to stop hearing about "death panels"?
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debracanice
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 8:02pm |
Turboguy wrote:
Since you posted two points, I'll tackle them each in turn...
debracanice wrote:
In the end you will stay the same ,
Your being fed so much fear and just crap you will never have Universal Healthcare
Obama was the worst president to promote healthcare in fact I think the insurance companies must be just loving this . |
Maybe, maybe. I don't think it's because he's a crappy president, I think it's because he and Congress went about this all wrong. They want to completely throw out everything and FORCE people to do whatever the government wants them to do. Instead of radically changing the system to the garbage Socialist disaster that is the Canadian system we could have set up a hybrid that would have been fair to all.
Debracan wrote:
One day the American will wake up and realized they paid hundred of thousand each for heathcare no for insurance fees , for coverage that is not really quaranteed . |
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here... But I think you're trying to say that we Americans are paying for insurance fees instead of for actual healthcare. This is true, but the fact of the matter is that you too are paying, you just get it taken out of your paychecks in taxes. Your government is basically holding a gun to your head and telling you to pay up or die. Americans and Canadians are radically different in this respect.
DebraCan wrote:
When the Cananda have been fighting to keep your system out of their country .
I love to see what happens when the average american realizes he been feed a bunch of crap by the insurance comapnies You do realize the women in those comercial only had a cyst not a brain tumour . |
Wrong. Canadians that make laws are the wealthy of your country. The United States is a convenient place for the wealthy to come to get the best healthcare in the world without having to wait for it as they would in Canada. Some would argue that everyone should get the level of care the wealthy receive in the U.S., and I happen to agree with them, but putting the government in charge of the industry wouldn't give everyone that awesome healthcare, quite the opposite, it would drag the top down to everyone else's level.
DebraCan wrote:
Obama is not someone the Amnerican people will trust ewith their healthcare
so the insurance companies win |
No, it's not just Obama. It's our entire congress. It was very telling when Claire McCaskill asked a "Town Hall" full of her constituents did they trust her. The entire crowd shouted out, "NO!!!" So the bottom line, is that the Insurance companies are crap, but the government is even worse.
DebraCan wrote:
Instead the focas in on Obama and it bury the issue behide a whole lot of fears and misconceptions . |
You're a Canadian and don't have many facts if this is what you believe. It has nothing to do with Obama, regardless of what you or the media wants you to believe. The problem is that people started reading the bill and freaked out. Sure some people are against it because they're against Obama, but the vast majority are against it because tehy don't want the amount of change and government control they're looking to inflict on us.
DebraCan wrote:
Truth is I dont care as long as you keep your system their and dont try to force us to have a two tier system |
You keep alluding to the U.S. wanting to export our healthcare system to Canada and I am at a complete loss as to what you're talking about. The only thing we want is trade for Alberta's oil. The rest of Canada, especially your rather crazy laws and insane taxes we really don't care about. You seem to think that the U.S. has any bearing whatsoever on the internal politics of Canada, when that couldn't be further from the truth. So you keep your system, we'll keep ours and you'll just have to deal with your wealthy people flying to America for quality healthcare while everyone else up there suffers.
Oh and we'll take newfoundland too, they've got a surplus of unbelievably attractive women.
And lastly:
fedupinhouston@DU.com wrote:
Hey - if you ever want to find out what its really like down here, come on over. Assuming you have some beneficial skill or another it should not be too difficult for you to immigrate. Then you could actually VOTE in our elections rather than simply whining about them. |
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debracanice
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 8:34pm |
debracanice wrote:
Turboguy wrote:
Since you posted two points, I'll tackle them each in turn...
debracanice wrote:
In the end you will stay the same ,
Your being fed so much fear and just crap you will never have Universal Healthcare
Obama was the worst president to promote healthcare in fact I think the insurance companies must be just loving this . |
Maybe, maybe. I don't think it's because he's a crappy president, I think it's because he and Congress went about this all wrong. They want to completely throw out everything and FORCE people to do whatever the government wants them to do. Instead of radically changing the system to the garbage Socialist disaster that is the Canadian system we could have set up a hybrid that would have been fair to all.
Debracan wrote:
One day the American will wake up and realized they paid hundred of thousand each for heathcare no for insurance fees , for coverage that is not really quaranteed . |
I'm not really sure what you're talking about here... But I think you're trying to say that we Americans are paying for insurance fees instead of for actual healthcare. This is true, but the fact of the matter is that you too are paying, you just get it taken out of your paychecks in taxes. Your government is basically holding a gun to your head and telling you to pay up or die. Americans and Canadians are radically different in this respect.
DebraCan wrote:
When the Cananda have been fighting to keep your system out of their country .
I love to see what happens when the average american realizes he been feed a bunch of crap by the insurance comapnies You do realize the women in those comercial only had a cyst not a brain tumour . |
Wrong. Canadians that make laws are the wealthy of your country. The United States is a convenient place for the wealthy to come to get the best healthcare in the world without having to wait for it as they would in Canada. Some would argue that everyone should get the level of care the wealthy receive in the U.S., and I happen to agree with them, but putting the government in charge of the industry wouldn't give everyone that awesome healthcare, quite the opposite, it would drag the top down to everyone else's level.
DebraCan wrote:
Obama is not someone the Amnerican people will trust ewith their healthcare
so the insurance companies win |
No, it's not just Obama. It's our entire congress. It was very telling when Claire McCaskill asked a "Town Hall" full of her constituents did they trust her. The entire crowd shouted out, "NO!!!" So the bottom line, is that the Insurance companies are crap, but the government is even worse.
DebraCan wrote:
Instead the focas in on Obama and it bury the issue behide a whole lot of fears and misconceptions . |
You're a Canadian and don't have many facts if this is what you believe. It has nothing to do with Obama, regardless of what you or the media wants you to believe. The problem is that people started reading the bill and freaked out. Sure some people are against it because they're against Obama, but the vast majority are against it because tehy don't want the amount of change and government control they're looking to inflict on us.
DebraCan wrote:
Truth is I dont care as long as you keep your system their and dont try to force us to have a two tier system |
You keep alluding to the U.S. wanting to export our healthcare system to Canada and I am at a complete loss as to what you're talking about. The only thing we want is trade for Alberta's oil. The rest of Canada, especially your rather crazy laws and insane taxes we really don't care about. You seem to think that the U.S. has any bearing whatsoever on the internal politics of Canada, when that couldn't be further from the truth. So you keep your system, we'll keep ours and you'll just have to deal with your wealthy people flying to America for quality healthcare while everyone else up there suffers.
Oh and we'll take newfoundland too, they've got a surplus of unbelievably attractive women.
And lastly:
fedupinhouston@DU.com wrote:
Hey - if you ever want to find out what its really like down here, come on over. Assuming you have some beneficial skill or another it should not be too difficult for you to immigrate. Then you could actually VOTE in our elections rather than simply whining about them. |
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What I meant by you keep yours , The American have tried opening up clinic.s in CaNANDA that dont accept ohip . They are for profit clinic that require cash payments
We close them down . and dont want them in the country
Ontario health care OHIP
and that want private payments .
we protest these
as they will dilute our system and be a two tier system
In Britain they have a two tir system
Waht makes you say our sytstem is a disaster . Have you been to a hospital here
The governement does not interfer with care that fear mogering
Yes we do pay for it out of our taxes but that way less than you pay for even the cheapest insurance
The problem is you have insurance , A insurance company main goal is to make money
not provide service We have a health card
Ilegala pay our of pocket and cant access our system
I am not sure is our taxes are significantly higher
We would have to compare basic tax system
property taxes are the same
Inheritance taxes the same I believe
and I dont know what laws we have that are so different than yours
What I meant by you pay for insurance rather than healthcare is that insurance is not a guaranteed ,hat you are paying for will provide the services you need and that you wont be turned down for any reason
That insurance companies have made a fortune because they deny services .
You talk about our lack of care . I watched both my mom and brother become very sick unavoidable illness .
they were given whatever treatment they required
I researched both of their treatment and both received cutting age medical procedures and drugs and tests
including home visits by nurses weekly or every two days
both required intensive care treatment . both got round the clock treatment
both had the best medicines and tests needed .
In clean hospitals
Both would of used up normal insurance as they both required lots of treatment
I wont move there
I have conciderable assets and I would fear that my sons inheritance would get eaten up in medical fees if I got sick there . which everyone does when you die
I plan on leaving my son a substatial inheritance , not a medical bill
If I was broke Ok . I would move there.
If I had a large bill I would declare bancruptcy
say if I owed a hundred thousand or more .
Our system protects the middle class and the rich , the only ones who want your sytem here are the super rich not just average millionares
I think the point is to have a open dialoge comparing our healthcare systems
and I am hardly winning
I am proud of my country and it care of its sick
Anyone know how to do a real comparison on our taxes
Income percentage
inheritance taxes
property taxes
road tolls very few here
I certainly dont pay 1400.00 in insurance monthly plus income taxes
what is the average monthy insurance cost for a family of four
Still I dont think anyone is going to put aside the insurance compaies and provide a health card
There really is no reason to compare the the two healthcare systems
In Obama own words he is not trying to duplicate the Canadian system
There is no way the insuyrance compaines will let them
maybe they can make another commercial with the lady who said she had a brain tumour when it was only a cyst .
Canandian have been razing her
fear mongering is telling people its going to be a goverment run monopoly
I dont think there is the money avaible in the coffers to do it . You have a much larger populations and its too much of a change to happen in a short period of time and its not the American way
still you should make insurance more fair and make insurance companies play fair
. You should go broke because of a diagnoeses of cancer or stroke
You should not be disqualified because of preexisting medical conditions and the cost should be afforable
s
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debracanice
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 9:29pm |
Turboguy wrote:
AandEmommy wrote:
These companies have huge monopolies. |
I've got an idea! Let's replace a monopoly with a government run one! Great idea!
It worked *SO* well for the U.S.S.R., Canada, the UK, etc why shouldn't it work for us!?!
It doesn't work you say? My bad. |
Who is telling you the Canandian system is not working
insurance comapnies are there to make money period
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debracanice
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Posted: August 14 2009 at 9:34pm |
[QUOTE=AandEmommy]One point I believe that many are trying to make is that reform does not have to be all or nothing. We tend to assume that making any changes at all will result in single payer universal health care. that is going to be free to everyone. That is not even on the table, SO QUIT WORRYING ABOUT IT. I thought that one of our "American Principles" was competition in the free market. Well, every job I have ever had has offered me the choice of 1 insurance company and up to 4 plans that get far worse as they become even slightly affordable. Where is the competition in that? These companies have huge monopolies. And, their overhead expenses are often times close to 30%. Insurance companies need to do a much better job, and they won't without a push. Why would they want to change now? They are making record profits. There are hundreds of ways to force more competition into the market, only some of which involve offering (not forcing you to choose) a government run program. We need to find a program that actually MAKES SENSE.
Nowhere does it say a one payer system . There is no way the insurance companies are going to give up their cash cow
Record profits /QUOTE]
Insurance companies wont change , unless they are forced to
The Canadian system is not on the table
your not getting a healthcard
you get insurance
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 2:55am |
DebraCan wrote:
What I meant by you keep yours , The American have tried opening up clinic.s in CaNANDA that dont accept ohip . They are for profit clinic that require cash payments
We close them down . and dont want them in the country |
No, they're not shut down because everyone wants them gone, they're shut down because those are the places that will give care that is of far higher quality than one might receive in a Government run hospital. What's wrong with just letting the market work? If it's not profitable, the private practice will close it's doors. Is there something you're afraid of? I guess I'm at a loss as to why anyone would care if someone wants to bypass the line for healthcare and pay for it out of their own pocket.
DebraCan wrote:
Waht makes you say our sytstem is a disaster . Have you been to a hospital here
The governement does not interfer with care that fear mogering |
I managed to injure myself while in Edmonton, got my hand slammed in a car door and broke two metacarpals. The care I received was decent, I must admit, as far as emergency care goes but I did sit in the waiting room longer than I ever have in the United States with one exception. While talking to my fellow hospital patrons, however, one woman talked about how routine and prevenative care, such as a hip replacement or slipped disk, can be put on hold for four months. I simply can not imagine having to deal with a slipped disk for four months of excruciating pain. I call that a disaster.
DebraCan wrote:
You talk about our lack of care . I watched both my mom and brother become very sick unavoidable illness .
they were given whatever treatment they required
I researched both of their treatment and both received cutting age medical procedures and drugs and tests
including home visits by nurses weekly or every two days
both required intensive care treatment . both got round the clock treatment
both had the best medicines and tests needed .
In clean hospitals |
No Debra, I never said that Canada has crappy healthcare once you get in. I say that you've got wait times etc that make the difference between operable and terminal care. If you come down with Breast Cancer that's operable, how long would your lead time be to get the problem fixed? Granted it's not going to cost you money out of your pocket, which is an awesome thing, but having to wait behind every other person in the queue can have your currently operable cancer get into your lymph system and become a major, probably fatal problem can be called a disaster of epic proportions.
I think you're getting me wrong here Deb. I'm not defending our insurance companies at all. They are totally evil companies that would rather see someone suffer and die to make a buck than give them treatment or a cure. The problem with this legislation is that our leadership is jamming these changes down our throats while trying to stifle healthy debate. They tried to get a total change of the entire healthcare system without any of the politicians actually reading the bill. Sure there's a lot of mischaracterization going on on both sides of the debate, but I see a major problem when average people are more knowledgable than those we elected to vote on this issue.
It shouldn't have been this easy to derail a healthcare bill that was a good bill.
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debracanice
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Posted: August 15 2009 at 8:30pm |
I cant say the waiting list is longer in Cananda than in the US with insurance companies.
Do you get imediate treatment , are your appointment with specialist the smae week
In Cananda I know if the situation is urgent you get urgent care ,
When my son was a baby he had a murmer . Me and his dad were told to go to the hospital that night at 7:00 this was two in the afternoon.
A doctor meet us their , he was called in from home to meet us there
To Sick Kids
He ran a full st of test and we were up til three in the morning . with him running a battery of test on him
and God bless the doctor said his murmer was fine and he would out g\row it . He was followed closely . once a month then every six months then yearly than every two years
Where was my waiting list . Urgent is still urgent
and I know some insurance companies dont like doctors making referals to specialists
My brother required urgent care and received immediate care . He had a long wait for a specailized neurologist but that because the neurologist was the type that neurolisgist refer there difficult patients too. He was seeing neurolgist at the time
The system here is you see your family doctor when you need to but a specialsit appointment is about six weeks and they do try to make sure it is not longer .
When he went to the hospital , I had called first and they admitted him on the spot no waiting . yes the guy with the sore hand waited probally three hours . and there are several patients who show up in emergency when a family doctor would do . So it is taken advantage of .
We have a umbrella of care . There arte nurses you can call when your very sick , they can call ahead the hosptial if your very sick and the hosptial will be ready for you, there is some home visits by doctors , not all areas of course , nursing home care .
We have some hospitals that are doing one day diagnoses
that means a women with a breast lump arrives and go for all the test that are required in one day . Its a new program . so in some ways we are cutting edge too
But you would have to track the average time for diagnose to treatment in both countries to get a real comaparison . and in all fairness what does a women with no insujrance do with breast cancer. What happens to the women with a reoccurance
Has anyone done a full study , maybe becasuse it not relevant since the peoint is to provide healthcare to each person ,
The Toronto Star newspaper did some articles today in the paper about our take of your system
and your struggles with healthcare . its a good article
One thing I am glad is that we cut back on the health care of seniors who went to Florida every year , the snow birds . Most of them stayed here because of our healthcare and their pensions and went back and forth
They now struggle with getting insurance form the States . Ok its been along time since we covered the snow birds fully . but that was too much
You are also getting some of your imformation through the insurance companies and that now fair . It is evil the women with the cyst went on tv to say her brain cancer was going to kill her if she waited .
What is your wait for hip replacement . ours is too long.
We do have our problems too , but we track waiting lists . seriously .
In Cananda health care is our right
Just dont get me started on welfare , That just drives me nuts . I am a landord and the amount of welfare fraud is so common . I run into it all the time as a landord
I get women claiming to be single parent who live with the father of the baby and collect
truthfully when a I get a couple and he works but she doesnt and I know he isnt making more that 20 a hour I know they are commiting welfare fraud
I report them and they talk they way out of it .
no investigation no no charges . sometimes they get cut off but they just reapply
its stinkly common
I dont know how common it is there . her it is rambant and charges are rarelyt laid
Oh if that money was in healthcare what a wonderful world it would be
every child getting treatment it needed quickly
but there is no real interest in welfare fraud ,
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 1:55am |
DebraCan wrote:
Just dont get me started on welfare , That just drives me nuts . I am a landord and the amount of welfare fraud is so common . I run into it all the time as a landord
I get women claiming to be single parent who live with the father of the baby and collect
truthfully when a I get a couple and he works but she doesnt and I know he isnt making more that 20 a hour I know they are commiting welfare fraud
I report them and they talk they way out of it . |
I agree wholeheartedly. Fraud of any kind is horrible... and totally rampant in government. There's quite literally billions of dollars in fraud to the Medicare and Medicaid systems. (These are government run Socialist healthcare systems we already have) Because of the rampand fraud, waste, and abuse both of these programs are truly dismal failures.
I just can't see a Socialized Medicine program happening any different.
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 5:16am |
Obamacare will be great. you will have the intelligence of the public school system, combine with the efficiency of the post office, mixed together with the compassion of the IRS |
If Socialized healthcare in Canada is SOOOOOOOO great, why can I find these, and many, many more, with a cursory Google search. These talk about rationing and generally poor treatment. If this is what's in store for us down here, I'd actually rather stay with the Insurance company as crappy as those are.
VANCOUVER –– Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures will wait longer for care as their health authority prepares to cut over 6,000 surgeries under the B.C. Liberals' post-election plan for health care, New Democrats said Monday.
"This will result in thousands of patients suffering longer in pain and undermine the long-term capacity of public health care," said Adrian Dix, New Democrat health critic.
Mr. Dix released a leaked document Monday that shows the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority is looking to close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms starting in September and to cut 6,250 surgeries, including 24% of cases scheduled from September to March and 10% of all medically necessary elective procedures this fiscal year.
The plan proposes cutbacks to neurosurgery, ophthalmology, vascular surgery, and 11 other specialized areas.
Further reductions in surgeries are scheduled during the Olympics, when the health authority plans to close approximately a third of its operating rooms.
Two weeks ago, Mr. Dix released a Fraser Health Authority draft communications plan listing proposed clinical care cuts, including a 10% cut in elective surgeries.
Mr. Dix encouraged local communities to fight to protect health care in B.C.
"I think everyone waiting for surgery is going to get bad news," he said.
The Vancouver Coastal Health Authority confirmed the document as genuine, but said it represents ideas only.
"It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented," said Anna Marie D'Angelo, health authority spokeswoman.
Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts "a nightmare."
"Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery. I just can't think of a worse place," Dr. Brodie said.
Vancouver Sun
Here's another one:
Alberta health care system is getting worse: Fraser Institute
Updated: Thu Jun. 04 2009 17:47:46
ctvcalgary.ca
Alberta's health care reform is being compared to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
"When we look at the reforms the province is undertaking - reducing the number of surgeries, cutting staff, delisting - it all seems like...we're not really dealing with the core problem which is a flawed structure for Medicare," says Nadeem Esmail from the Fraser Institute.
Esmail says he would like to see the province make major reforms like allowing funding to follow patients instead of allocating lump sums to hospitals.
He also says cutting the number of surgeries is not reform. "If you do less surgeries you will save money in the short term but, remember, you have to deal with these people eventually," says Esmail.
Darlene Green was initially scheduled for foot surgery this past December. It never happened because she was told there was no more money for surgeries. "This will only get aggravated as I get older, the problem won't go away it will just get worse," says Green. At this point, she is scheduled for surgery in October.
Alberta currently spends more on health care than any other province but the average wait time for common medical procedures is higher than the national average. [/snip]
Here's the Bottom line DebraCan and Mahshadin: Canadians regularly go to the United States for healthcare, exactly how many times do Americans go to Canada in search of theirs?
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 3:28pm |
Lost in a sea of dis-information
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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ejayb
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 6:53pm |
We get it, you're on the payroll.
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Elver
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 8:44pm |
We can't afford medicare, medicaid, the drug plan, or social security. How on earth do you think we can afford medical care for all, including illegal's? Higher taxes & reduced benefits will be the only way. This is not something we should be experimenting with at this point in time.
Why is it that people pay more per year on cable TV than they care to pay for a doctor visit? Our priorities are upside down.
This whole thing is stupid. Hillary Clinton started this mess years ago, so she ought to be the very person enrolled in government healthcare.
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debracanice
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 9:12pm |
Whats interesting is that we Canandians are following what is happening to your health care and what you are saying about ours .
In general some are very offended and defensive
your statement that Canandians often go to the States for treatment
One I dont know how common that is
In a horrible way to say it is that the best thing for Canadians is that you stay the same and we Canandian pick and
choose what we use of your services and we dont let your type of insurance pay for services enter here
Most Canandians dont care what the Fraser intitute says on anything , they are a organization that wants to get rid of all our programs .
The National Post is a very conservative paper
Conrad Black is the owner of the National Post and befor he left to live in britian declared Cananda full of socialist and made comments obout how much he hated the healthcare system , this coming from a super rich man , you have to take it with a grain of salt. conrad black really controls the content of his
newspaper . A man who can afford to buy a hospital has no right to comment on what type of care a normal man is entitled to .
He is in your jails now and I love it
google Conrad Black
The Fraiser institue is a very convservative think tank
in other words there articles and studies are biased healivly slanted towards the
ultra conservatives . They were heard from more when we have a conservative goverment .
In the Harris days (he was a ultra conservative premier of Ontairo ) we heard from the Fraiser institue alot .
I will; say yes we could put more money into it . and then waiting lists will come down
we have gone through a educationg the public that every sore throat and cold does not need a doctor visit .(pre flu season ) and it can be abused .
Still your such a ;larger country I cant see it working , It would mean the dismantling of your whole insurance form to go to a right to healthcare
Still we now hear horror stories from both sides . but no healthcare seems the worst situation . Your horror stories seem worse
I remember a women trying to marry a Canandian because she had used up her insurance and had cancer .
Maybe you sohould work on not letting insurance companies set their own rules so much
no excemtion for preexisting conditions or no using up yuour maximum insurance
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debracanice
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Posted: August 16 2009 at 9:40pm |
Turboguy wrote:
Obamacare will be great. you will have the intelligence of the public school system, combine with the efficiency of the post office, mixed together with the compassion of the IRS |
If Socialized healthcare in Canada is SOOOOOOOO great, why can I find these, and many, many more, with a cursory Google search. These talk about rationing and generally poor treatment. If this is what's in store for us down here, I'd actually rather stay with the Insurance company as crappy as those are.
VANCOUVER –– Vancouver patients needing neurosurgery, treatment for vascular diseases and other medically necessary procedures will wait longer for care as their health authority prepares to cut over 6,000 surgeries under the B.C. Liberals' post-election plan for health care, New Democrats said Monday.
"This will result in thousands of patients suffering longer in pain and undermine the long-term capacity of public health care," said Adrian Dix, New Democrat health critic.
Mr. Dix released a leaked document Monday that shows the Vancouver Coastal Health Authority is looking to close nearly a quarter of its operating rooms starting in September and to cut 6,250 surgeries, including 24% of cases scheduled from September to March and 10% of all medically necessary elective procedures this fiscal year.
The plan proposes cutbacks to neurosurgery, ophthalmology, vascular surgery, and 11 other specialized areas.
Further reductions in surgeries are scheduled during the Olympics, when the health authority plans to close approximately a third of its operating rooms.
Two weeks ago, Mr. Dix released a Fraser Health Authority draft communications plan listing proposed clinical care cuts, including a 10% cut in elective surgeries.
Mr. Dix encouraged local communities to fight to protect health care in B.C.
"I think everyone waiting for surgery is going to get bad news," he said.
The Vancouver Coastal Health Authority confirmed the document as genuine, but said it represents ideas only.
"It is a planning document. It has not been approved or implemented," said Anna Marie D'Angelo, health authority spokeswoman.
Dr. Brian Brodie, president of the BC Medical Association, called the proposed surgical cuts "a nightmare."
"Why would you begin your cost-cutting measures on medically necessary surgery. I just can't think of a worse place," Dr. Brodie said.
Vancouver Sun
Here's another one:
Alberta health care system is getting worse: Fraser Institute
Updated: Thu Jun. 04 2009 17:47:46
ctvcalgary.ca
Alberta's health care reform is being compared to shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
"When we look at the reforms the province is undertaking - reducing the number of surgeries, cutting staff, delisting - it all seems like...we're not really dealing with the core problem which is a flawed structure for Medicare," says Nadeem Esmail from the Fraser Institute.
Esmail says he would like to see the province make major reforms like allowing funding to follow patients instead of allocating lump sums to hospitals.
He also says cutting the number of surgeries is not reform. "If you do less surgeries you will save money in the short term but, remember, you have to deal with these people eventually," says Esmail.
Darlene Green was initially scheduled for foot surgery this past December. It never happened because she was told there was no more money for surgeries. "This will only get aggravated as I get older, the problem won't go away it will just get worse," says Green. At this point, she is scheduled for surgery in October.
Alberta currently spends more on health care than any other province but the average wait time for common medical procedures is higher than the national average. [/snip]
Here's the Bottom line DebraCan and Mahshadin: Canadians regularly go to the United States for healthcare, exactly how many times do Americans go to Canada in search of theirs? |
Bottom line , why would you come here , you cant use your insurance here and we dont provide free services to illegals . you can only acess our services by paying cash.
what moran does that . still we are good ,askj anyone who has required emergency services here
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 17 2009 at 2:11am |
Debra wrote:
Bottom line , why would you come here , you cant use your insurance here and we dont provide free services to illegals . you can only acess our services by paying cash.
what moran does that . still we are good ,askj anyone who has required emergency services here
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Oh right, you mean those "Moronic" Canadians that cross our northern border and pay cash instead of waiting behind every other person in line? If that's the case, why couldn't they just pay cash in the Canadian system and get healthcare? Could it be that it is because 1. They don't want to wait, and 2. Because our healthcare here is second to none?
Actually when I was there and injured myself your hospital took my U.S. Military insurance as I was on duty when it happened. No questions asked except for my phone number. I couldn't resist, she was cute.
So you don't pay for Illegals huh? Canada has what, 75 total illegals? If the United States tried to specifically exclude illegals there' be mobs of illegals marching and Liberal's lamenting how heartless and evil we are. Illegals are a paltry issue in Canada. In the United States the drain on our system as it stands now is inarguably massive. Give them free healthcare right across the border and this Socialistic plan you're foisting on us will bankrupt our nation in a matter of months as we see an exodus that would rival Moses leading his people to the promised land.
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 17 2009 at 4:14am |
I guess things aren't all peaches and cream up there after all...
The incoming president of the Canadian Medical Association says this country's health-care system is sick and doctors need to develop a plan to cure it.
Dr. Anne Doig says patients are getting less than optimal care and she adds that physicians from across the country - who will gather in Saskatoon on Sunday for their annual meeting - recognize that changes must be made.
"We all agree that the system is imploding, we all agree that things are more precarious than perhaps Canadians realize," Doing said in an interview with The Canadian Press.
"We know that there must be change," she said. "We're all running flat out, we're all just trying to stay ahead of the immediate day-to-day demands."
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debracanice
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Posted: August 17 2009 at 7:10pm |
Turboguy wrote:
Debra wrote:
Bottom line , why would you come here , you cant use your insurance here and we dont provide free services to illegals . you can only acess our services by paying cash.
what moran does that . still we are good ,askj anyone who has required emergency services here
. |
Oh right, you mean those "Moronic" Canadians that cross our northern border and pay cash instead of waiting behind every other person in line? If that's the case, why couldn't they just pay cash in the Canadian system and get healthcare? Could it be that it is because 1. They don't want to wait, and 2. Because our healthcare here is second to none?
Actually when I was there and injured myself your hospital took my U.S. Military insurance as I was on duty when it happened. No questions asked except for my phone number. I couldn't resist, she was cute.
So you don't pay for Illegals huh? Canada has what, 75 total illegals? If the United States tried to specifically exclude illegals there' be mobs of illegals marching and Liberal's lamenting how heartless and evil we are. Illegals are a paltry issue in Canada. In the United States the drain on our system as it stands now is inarguably massive. Give them free healthcare right across the border and this Socialistic plan you're foisting on us will bankrupt our nation in a matter of months as we see an exodus that would rival Moses leading his people to the promised land. |
You pay for illegals wow that would throw out our sytem completly . I have heard illegal complain about paying out of pocket for their expenses .
Anyways the reason we dont pay for our services is that we dont have a fee for services .
We cant pay
You can pay for our services
I cant just pay for a doctors visit or surgery ,.(unless it is cosmetic )
We only have one system . In Britain they have a two teir system
One you wait in line the other you pay and get qwuick service ,( I am not sure if they have private insurance )
We have private insurance here to , but that is for the drugs not provided while in a hospital stay and private insurance can get you a private room , but it cant pay for your doctors or tests. .
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debracanice
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Posted: August 17 2009 at 7:25pm |
This started as to scaring seniors
I watched ER and didnt the term DNR occur on every epeisode
Dont we all have the right to chose our deaths
and we are all smart enough to know what we want and need .
by brother had a dnr and I would not of picked that out for him
he chose what treatments he wanted
The focas is on the fact that we can keep somenone alive on oxegin almost forever when all they are is a vegetable ,
So being abe to chose for ourselves and that has to be very personal
I dont want a dna .
but then I am younge and feel I could recover , but that what I would chaose now , what would I chose if I had terminal cancer .
Would I want a hospice in a quiet caring surrounding with full medical pain treatment
every doctor should ask and every patient should be able to make the descion baised on their religious and moral beliefs
The truth is no one wants to be a vegatble and everyone wants to continue treatment as long as there is a chance for a meaniful recovery right and that situation changes
My mom in the end spent three days in a coma and the hospital staff I believe were so gentle that they did not ask us directly to remiove her though thye did hint and that confused my sister who couldnt understand what they were saying about her conditions
The day after she died the newspaper said that the room she was in was booked fully and that patients were waiting for transplants til thoses beds were free
We would of offered to remove her ealrier had we known , she was not able to recover and was in a deep coma and had kidney failure and was full of poisen . We would of preffered for to choses her moment of death and been around here , ready to let her go to the next world rather she died the next day without anyone around her.
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 18 2009 at 8:39am |
Debra
I started this as (Scaring Seniors) to bring to light the a deception designed to scare a significant portion of the population with an outright lie, and the only way to support the lie itself is to support a larger conspiricy theory (Also Fiction).
As far as it relates to you in Canada, you must understand that in order for the conspiricy theory to be believed you must be portreyed as a Oppressive Marxist Commy converts, and your system which is effective and liked by the people must be torn down with lies and deception. Otherwise the conspiricay theory will be dead.
This type of Political Tactic has got to be exposed for what it is and for all to see. Our country will get no where, our people bankrupt, and we will end up with nothing if this is how we define our nation and the direction it is heading.
We can no longer just ignore the millions who are forced out of their own health.
We can no longer ingore the thousands of families a year forced into bankruptcy and shame.
We can no longer ingnore the thousands and perhaps millions who by fate alone have pre existing condition that has tagged them as not worhty of health and be excluded.
I could go on but ill stop
I remember a time in this country where we did not leave anyone behind!
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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debracanice
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Posted: August 18 2009 at 10:01pm |
Your right
What this is really about is what time magaizine once said that this is the year of you
the internet changes everything , it changes how much imformation we share
about each other and how each country is run
What will change you healthcare is dialouge , between Cananda Britain and other countries
eventually the insurance companies who can at least for a littl;e while dominate the media coverage of the healthcare debate.
When every American has talked to a Canandain and Britain you will make your own choices freely and imformed choice
thats what this forum and others is about
At one time the Amnericans dominated the media
let Americans see the Canandians as slow socialist
and We see the Americans as loud and stupid and unimformed about what goes on in the worlld . Now the media is accurate for the most part its quick and it will be less and less
able to be manipulatied by the goverment
The internet will change so much
I thinks that why now you are in disscusion about your healthcare now . the imforamtion is out there and that is forcing the average American to not be complacent
one thing I will say , I have never ever heard a Canandian say they want what you got
they want what we got fixed up with more money put into it
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Mahshadin
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Posted: August 20 2009 at 9:03pm |
Just in case you have not seen them yet
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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Turboguy
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Posted: August 21 2009 at 3:07am |
Mahshadin wrote:
Just in case you have not seen them yet
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Propaganda? Grow some intellectual integrity. I remember George W. Bush putting something exactly like this up after the Patriot act. Find an independant source that's not rediculously easy to poke holes in.
Mahshadin wrote:
I started this as (Scaring Seniors) to bring to light the a deception designed to scare a significant portion of the population with an outright lie, and the only way to support the lie itself is to support a larger conspiricy theory (Also Fiction). |
You mean like self labeling yourself as a Conservative when everything you post is diametrically opposite to any views a Conservative might have? Do you mean like the Prez filling the people he calls on with people claiming to be doctors? You just want something without having to work for it. I don't want your brand of socialism and I'm not alone, not by a long shot.
Mahshadin wrote:
As far as it relates to you in Canada, you must understand that in order for the conspiricy theory to be believed you must be portreyed as a Oppressive Marxist Commy converts, and your system which is effective and liked by the people must be torn down with lies and deception. Otherwise the conspiricay theory will be dead. |
Typical. If it doesn't agree with me it doesn't exist, or is lies, right? The Canadian system is broken, no amount of trying to shout the sound out of your ears is going to change that.
Mahshadin wrote:
This type of Political Tactic has got to be exposed for what it is and for all to see. Our country will get no where, our people bankrupt, and we will end up with nothing if this is how we define our nation and the direction it is heading. |
So throwing ourselved FURTHER into debt than we already are, taxing the hell out of an already beleagured people, and forcing government fraud, waste, and beuracracy into the health system is going to save us from going bankrupt with a country with no good leadership at the helm? If you don't like the way we have our healthcare system, and the Canadian system is so great, go there and live under their system.
Mahshadin wrote:
We can no longer just ignore the millions who are forced out of their own health.
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Right, we'll just have the government give them crappy healthcare and remove the U.S. from having the best healthcare in teh world.
Mahshadin wrote:
We can no longer ingore the thousands of families a year forced into bankruptcy and shame. |
Personally I see having an entire population being wards of the state as shameful, but that's just me.
Mahshadin wrote:
We can no longer ingnore the thousands and perhaps millions who by fate alone have pre existing condition that has tagged them as not worhty of health and be excluded.
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And I wholeheartedly agree with you on this point, but you're either naive or unintelligent if you actually believe bringing the government into anything instantly makes them successes.
Mahshadin wrote:
I remember a time in this country where we did not leave anyone behind! |
Really? Find me the place in the Constitution where it says that you are entitled to healthcare from the government.
unknown/misattributed wrote:
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.
The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. Great nations rise and fall. The people go from bondage to spiritual truth, to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency, from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependence, from dependence back again to bondage. |
I wonder where we are... Is it apathy or dependence, and how long will that one last before we're slaves?
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 9:48am |
As I stated before on this thread, I started this thread to call attention to political tactics of Deception & Fear Mongering. And as titled (Scaring Seniors Right or Wrong) was to address specifically the problem of some intentionally targeting our senior citizens with this tactic.
And finally this is being addressed in plain view for everyone to see.
See video
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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sjf53
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 12:38pm |
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9GMKK_fWKg Click here for video
ABC's John Stossel Destroys/Pulverizes/Crushes Obama's anti-American 'Health Care' Plan
Mahashadin...you are saying ignore the CBO Report and other notable economists?
Why do you call opposing views Propaganda? Just a little condescending.
You are inferring that Seniors are not able to do the math, understand the principles of
supply and demand, what controlling the costs will mean, or think for themselves and to make up their own minds. How old are you?
What excuse do you use for the Democratic Blue Dogs who oppose the Health Care Plan?
They have been swayed by opposing Propaganda? Or might they just have Serious questions concerning Health Care for Seniors.
Pass it ? They don't have the votes from their own Party.
Why did not one Democrat vote to have this plan for their themselves and their families?
Why are the unions and special interest groups exempt from the public plan?
Illegals will get healthcare. Because they will not be asked to prove they are a citizens when signing up for their public plan. No verification required. Disengenuous.
Also, Obama has also said that Amnesty for Illegals will be on the agenda after Cap and Trade just in time for the Health Care Bill "IF" passed to take effect.
Associated Press
I agree with Ejayb........
"We get it, you're on the payroll."
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Mahshadin
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 1:52pm |
So anyone who does not buy the BullBLEEP is on the payroll
What a joke
Do you hear yourself, what you and all who support this crap are saying is
ITS OUR WAY OR THE HIGHWAY AND WE WILL LIE CHEAT AND STEATL TO KEEP IT THAT WAY
Get a Life or better yet a Conscience
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"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." G Orwell
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debracanice
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 8:12pm |
As a Canandian I do find it offensive that you say we dont treat our seniors , or that their care is any different than yours senoirs ..
Still both systems need tweaking , we need a bigger influx of cash
my personal mission is to go after welfare fraud and have that cash go ito the health care system
I am posting several sites about my feeling on welfare fraud and I beleive I am having a effect . I am posting on Landord sites .
in short conservative sites
If any of you want to post on your favourtie sites about the lack policing off welfare , or maybe the States are different , we are way to liberal here , dont want to interfere with the privacy of
thoses on welfare ,
If you got rid of fraud and waste we can all afford the healthcare we deserve and it can be universal ,
still not for illegal and everyone working and we can be on happy street
I wish Obama would go after welfare fraud . that is my one thing I dont like about him , he looks like he is going after the fat cats and dosent get that the rich benifit from better helathcare not the poor and that welfare fraud the problem with your private jails , are keeping you from affording better medical care
he needs to fix the cash going out before he can put more money out . its the ying yang
he needs balance ,
going after thoses working under the table , who dont pay taxes , way to common
we are working to support them
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