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| Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Question for doctors please. - Event Date: September 10 2009 |
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grammajo 
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 Calendar Event: Question for doctors please.Posted: September 10 2009 at 9:18am |
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First I want to thank Albert and all others who have been so helpful.
I'm in the process of fighting the H1N1 and I have a question for the medical people on the site. Is it possible to contract the same flu strain again during this wave?
I want you to know also that because of the help you've given, and your advice, I had all the food and meds needed for this time which made it easier. I do have to restock a few things now, when I can get out without infecting anyone. By the way, I caught this last Sunday in church so please be careful all.
God bless. Jo.
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Just waiting.
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1NiceGuy
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 11:16am |
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It is my understanding that a person is contagious generally two days before they show symptoms and up to 5 days after. I have read reports stating that children can be a carrier for even longer, possibly 10 days after they have recovered from symptoms.
Something else to consider is that fighting off an infection weakens your immune system for other infections that you may think is a re-occurrence of the illness you had just recovered from. Give yourself a break and be sure you get a minimum of 8 hours of uninterrupted sleep. Wash your hands for a full 20 seconds, Clean surfaces you have had contact with like the telephone and the TV remote to keep from infecting others in your family. If you had vomiting and/or diarrhea, replacing your electrolytes will Gatorade will help you feel better. Having recovered from a specific virus will give you immunity to that specific virus. Influenza however is very resilent and as it recombinates, it becomes a new infection that your body may not have resistance to. This is why a new flu vaccine is available every year. Hope you're feeling better..... |
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"Chance favors the prepared mind."
Louis Pasteur -- Louis Pasteur |
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4=laro
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 11:23am |
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Before you caught the flu, were you taking anything to prevent the disease? Many things have been discussed on the form and did you follow any of the advice?
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grammajo
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 12:09pm |
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Thank you 1NiceGuy. I 've been doing everything except getting the sleep. The coughing keeps me up a lot, and the ribs are sore. I did quite a bit to keep this from happening 4=laro,but it didn't work. We take vitamins daily. C, E, fish oil, and multi. We also avoided crowds, except for church services. We no longer eat out , shop a lot or visit a lot of relatives. Two great-grandsons, ages 2 and 3 also have it, but I was told that they caught it from their father. They had swine flu in the first wave also and they seem to be bouncing back better this time. I hate to say this, but I'm 69 and I do think it hits the children harder. I expect it will take awhile, but I think I'll be fine. I'm just praying that all of the children will be also.Thank you both for replies.
God bless. Jo
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Just waiting.
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1NiceGuy
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Posted: September 10 2009 at 1:06pm |
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If you are coughing and have sore ribs, you may want to call your physician and ask him to prescribe you some hydrocodone syrup...
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"Chance favors the prepared mind."
Louis Pasteur -- Louis Pasteur |
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SheepLady
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Posted: September 11 2009 at 5:53am |
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Great posts, 1NiceGuy.
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SheepLady
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Mary008
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Posted: September 11 2009 at 9:10pm |
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Although they seem to think we can be reinfected each yr by a new strain....
Alexandria, Va.: Is it possible for someone who contracted swine flu this summer to be reinfected later this year? Inzune Hwang: A person who was infected with most viral diseases, including Influenza, should develop immunity. It is theoretically possible to be infected twice by the same virus, but unlikely. .............
source
so many types of Resp. diease flying around...many seem similar to flu.
Adults forget the whooping cough virus changes....and they can get it again as an adult...
.................
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4=laro
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 12:17pm |
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Are you taking vitamin D and if so how much, I believe the recommended amount is 5000 IU.
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 1:53pm |
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Question on Tamiflu. If you take Tamiflu within the 24-48 hours will it help keep a person from getting ARDS?
If not preventl will Tamiflu lessen the possibility of ARDS? |
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1NiceGuy
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 2:32pm |
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Tamiflu is a neuraminidase inhibitor. It functions by inhibiting the "budding" phase of the viral infection. This is where the virus has infected a cell, reproduced, and then leaves the cell "budding".
Tamiflu is not recommended as a prophylactic (preventative) measure and carries very serous neurological side effects for many individuals, with the highest percentage being children. . If taken within 24-48 hrs of exposure it has "minimized" the duration and severity of the infection by 20% - 30%. If the virus has infected many cell, its effectiveness is greatly diminished. So tamiflu is not a cure. As far as its role in preventing ARDS, that's a good question. Part of the immune response is where "killer T" cells manufactured by your body kill these cells that are infected with the virus to eliminate the systemic spread of the virus. The primary reason this H1N1 has been more lethal in the lower age groups is because the immune response is stronger. ARDS is actually your own body killing itself in a over-response to the infection. My "guess" would be that tamiflu may reduce the extent of the infection to some degree and that may reduce the number of cells infected and destroyed by "killer T" cells. It is important to note that many people that have undergone tamiflu therapy have still died from ARDS. A greater factor may lie in the response of the individuals immune system. This raises a interesting question regarding genitic disposition of ARDS. If my brother within the same age group dies from ARDS after infection from H1N1, would I genetically have a greater chance of suffering the same response? As with most infections, therapy must begin within 24 to 48 hrs of "exposure" to be "highly" effective. Symptoms generally begin 48hrs after exposure. The effectiveness of the therapy decreases dramatically after symptoms begin to develop. The seasonal influenza is completely resistant to tamiflu and the H1N1 swine is showing increased resistance. Relenza, another neuraminidase inhibitor still shows effectiveness in seasonal and H1N1 swine. Its route of administration is inhaled, so it also gets more of the medicine at the site of ARDS infection. If I were to prescribe a neuraminidase inhibitor, I would choose relenza. Still share the side effects associated with tamiflu but statistically more effective. |
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"Chance favors the prepared mind."
Louis Pasteur -- Louis Pasteur |
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grammajo
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 5:23pm |
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Thanks to all for your responses. 4-laro, I have been taking vit.D, but only 800 units. Guess I'll have to up that. Also take Echinacea with golden seal. Still caught me though. I am slowly improving, maybe because of age. Both great-grandsons have bounced back quickly too so the previous infection in the first wave must have helped them. Thank God. I hope all of you, and your families are staying well. Thank you all again and God bless. Jo
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Just waiting.
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1NiceGuy
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 5:42pm |
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The best uptake of vitamin D3 is through UV radiation ie. sunlight.
Production of vitamin D in nature always appears to require the presence of some UV light; even vitamin D in foodstuffs is ultimately derived from organisms, from mushrooms to animals, which are not able to synthesize it except through the action of sunlight at some point in the synthetic chain. For example, fish contain vitamin D only because they ultimately exist on calories from ocean algae which synthesize vitamin D in shallow waters from the action of solar UV. In people, vitamin D3 is produced photochemically in the skin from 7-dehydrocholesterol. Influenza, statistically has a much higher incidence in the winter months. This is a fact. Speculation as to why this occurs has been proposed as people being indoors in close proximity in moist humid environments ect.. may not be the reason. It may in fact be related to the lack of UV radiation people receive during peak influenza season, adding credence to the theory that vitamin D3 boost the immune system against the influenza virus. Now I'm not one for vanity, but I am considering visiting a tanning booth this fall and winter as the same UV radiation that the sun provides can be supplemented with some tanning bulbs. I'm not sure but I think I remember that type B tanning bulbs provide the correct spectrum of UV radiation for vitamin D3 production. Maybe we just need to get a tan... |
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"Chance favors the prepared mind."
Louis Pasteur -- Louis Pasteur |
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4=laro
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 7:53pm |
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The body does not store vitamin D and you have to continually restock it in your body. As winter comes and it is colder and harder to go outside for a tan, supplementing is easier.I bought mine from puritain pride, I think they had a special buy one get 3 or 4 free.
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Mary008
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Posted: September 12 2009 at 9:45pm |
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Flumom... you come up with interesting questions... From MD Guidelines... Regarding treatment: (ARDS) Has underlying cause of lung injury been identified? Is it responding to treatment? We used pleurisy root as an anti-inflamitory... used it for 5 or 6 days.
If people have chest pain or heavyness in chest they need to call their Doctor.
I had used it before and knew how it worked. So people would need to ask their Doc...
the Indians used it.
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 12:14am |
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Mary008 well interesting the statement that antivirals may help as well as antibiotics. From what you and 1NiceGuy have said, I will be using Tamiflu, as soon as symptoms appear.
1NiceGuy, can't take Tamiflu as a preventative so if symptoms are 48hours after exposure that is all one can do is take it when symptoms appear. I will just do my best but I will use Tamiflu. |
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 3:55am |
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[QUOTE=Mary008]Although they seem to think we can be reinfected each yr by a new strain....
Alexandria, Va.: Is it possible for someone who contracted swine flu this summer to be reinfected later this year? Inzune Hwang: A person who was infected with most viral
diseases, including Influenza, should develop immunity. It is
theoretically possible to be infected twice by the same virus, but
unlikely. .............
source
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/discussion/2009/08/10/DI2009081001640.html
There is a syndrome where a husband and wife pass a cold back and forth several times. As the virus goes into the second host, it mutates, and actually becomes different enough to reinfect the person again. In government offices, we have seen workers catch what seems to be the same illness and be out with it as much as five times. As posted here, some people catch some diseases, and they in attempting to become symbiotic- or acclimate to a host- a type of viral parasite- never go away. That is why some people who catch such illnesses such as herpes or syphilis, or even mono may be carriers for life. In some cases, you have the appearance of recovering, but actually your immune system has only reduced the titer or level in your blood stream where you become asymptomatic, and then after awhile there is a relapse. For some, the relapse, if severe enough can wear down the immune system. This can be a chronic exposure to toxic chemicals, a reoccurring elusive infection (bronchitis), or even abdominal infection that never goes away (IBS). Current medical science is not completely knowledgeable in some of this so asking a doctor is not really going to answer many question. The fascination with doctors, which some of us nurses have noted to elevate certain people to an almost godlike status of knowledge is flawed. No doubt there are good doctors. Yet, right now the entire practice of medicine, the treatments, and even the honesty of medical practice is under investigation. These are not priests. Some have less than 6 hours training in vitamin or holistic medical therapy. Some could not tell you what a Chakra is or accupressure or healing therapies that have been used in India and other countries such as China for thousands of years- even by the Egyptians. My people - (part Native American here) were of course prey to bacteria and viruses - yet there is a vast pantheon of herbs and natural treatments which do not the ghastly side effects where a medicine is given which may have 50 side effects and not even cure - but simply relieve the symptoms of a disease that only your own immunse system can handle. Doctors go to a school of learning where they learn by rote the practice of medicine and the drugs and treatments which are considered effective during their education. Later, with more research, it may be found that certain treatments or procedures are completely inappropriate, certain drugs are dangerous, and within decades, physicians who went to school before we learned some things, if not constantly keeping up on technology are locked into a vending machine type medicine. Yes, you can catch a virus or bacteria many times. The current second wave of H1N1 is a classic example where the original virus has changed enough so our immune system antibodies no longer work and we get it again. The fact you need a yearly flu shot (most of which are ineffective) is a demonstration that the original entire H1N1 derivative virus, which emerged in 1918 has never been killed truly and now is spreading as a Pandemic. Our current drug-insurance-medical alliance has established a power force which while under current investigation, still is so powerful, that even though we draw near a medical situation in which there is no effective cure, and as there are no "cures" in medicine or psychiatry for our most common diseases, still, the illusion continues. Scientists continually research the frontiers of medicine, longevity, and explore new areas of knowledge that are not taught in school. They reveal to us the limits of modern medicine and practitioners and in the Second Wave when their may be no cure- then it is your immune system which will tell the final story of survival. In hospitals, generally nurses give the majority of medical care. While not allowed to be involved in the decision process of the orders they receive, many are extremely experienced and have seen the reactions to drugs and treatment that is often harmful to patients. There is an entire science of alternative medicine, herbs, vitamins and much like the car which is powered by hydrogen, is largely ignored by the general public. A young person 9-11 years old looks at a hydrogen car with its water mist emmission and sees the wave of the future. Some look at holistic and energy based medicine which is entirely outside the spectrum of doctors and will perhaps be the core of our healing science a hundred years from now. If a Pandemic strikes which is sufficently intense to close hospitals and clinics, you will be on your own, and faced with the same challenges our ancestors did- only now there is superior knowledge in many of the sciences which have been known for tens of thousands of years, and despite much opposition, sometimes work. The very fact that we have a second wave of Swine Flu and will have a Third is proof you can get it again. It is known that even research groups, especially hospitals and doctors rely on grants, money for their survival. We have had cures for types of cancer, tooth decay, and many conditions which have been pushed to the side so that the huge medical-insurance-drug industry can continue to make billions. If you go to a doctor during the Swine Flu second wave- and have Swine Flu- you cannot be vaccinated - and when both Tamiflu and Relenza are no longer effective- you and your immune system are on your own. However there are natural remedies and foods and things which can help you fight the disease- and it is often the case- none of them will be prescribed to help you. Medclinician |
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hope4bestprep4wrst
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 5:10am |
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The sad part is doctors are pretty much prevented from exploring these alternative regimens thanks to "evidence based medicine" and "practice guidelines".
Med, can you give a reference on this site or elsewhere for these alternative treatments and preventatives for flu? Best D |
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Be Well
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 6:21am |
Hello, as you know, as a non-M.D. - we cannot prescribe drugs or diagnose illness. There were a number of people, one especially suggesting an oriental mushroom that were rather quickly silenced, even though a book was published, and there are scores of herbal prophets on the net, which are about as the current almost untested vaccine we are going o give milllions of people. How ironic. However, there are a number of herbal medicines, and even osteopathic physicians. There we have the break in the wall allowing legal medical practice for alternative medicine. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States By the middle of the 20th century, the profession had moved closer to mainstream medicine, adopting modern public health and biomedical principles. "Osteopaths" became "osteopathic physicians", gradually achieving full practice rights in all 50 states, including serving in the US armed forces as physicians.[4] In the 21st century, the training of osteopathic physicians in the United States is very similar to that of their MD counterparts.[5] Osteopathic physicians attend 4 years of medical school followed by at least 3 years of residency. They use all conventional methods of diagnosis and treatment. Though still trained in Osteopathic Manipulative Medicine (OMM)[6], the modern derivative of Still's techniques[7], a minority of osteopathic physicians use it in actual practice.[8] Osteopathic medicine is considered by some in the United States to be both a profession and a social movement,[9][10] especially for its historically greater emphasis on primary care and holistic health. However, any distiction between the MD and the DO professions has eroded steadily; diminishing numbers of DO graduates enter primary care fields[11], less use OMM, holistic patient care models are increasingly taught at MD schools, and increasing numbers of DO graduates choose to train in non-osteopathic residency programs.[12][13] US osteopathic medical physicians may be licensed in 47 countries, although osteopathic curricula in other countries differ from those in the United States. DOs educated outside the US are known as "osteopaths" and their scope of practice excludes usual medical therapies and relies more on osteopathic manipulative medicine and other alternative medical modalities. Discussions about the future of osteopathic medicine frequently debate the feasibility of maintaining distinctiveness within the broader US physician community. Studies have repeatedly shown that many recent osteopathic medical graduates are either disinterested in or reluctant to embrace an identity distinct from their MD counterparts.[14] The topic of for-profit medical education has become an issue of ethics.[15] The rapid expansion in the number and size of schools has raised questions as to the quality of education at many schools. Leaders within the osteopathic community have referred to the present situation as a crisis.[12][13] comment; being of Native American heritage in part, my mother being quite the herbalist finding the bowl of chicken soup, and cup of hot lemon tea with honey far superior to cough medicine which some studies have shown - aside from some specific medical drugs - are absolutely of no effect as per those drinking placebo flavored water.Why post this? Well, unless you plan to break into pharmacies in a heavy Pandemic world (the kind so many make fun of us worrying about) and be your own doctor- in the absence of any- a knowledge of alternate medicine might prove useful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_medicine Many substances cannot be patented. Ironically there have been studies showing alternate medicine effective and a great number showing approved medicines in common usage being of no help at all in the treatment of medical conditions. For those of you spiritually inclined, which is a rather broad nebulous term, And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. Revelations 22:2 With, or without a serious CFR Pandemic we approach a health care crisis. One which needs to focus much more on prevention of disease than trying to cure it. The greatest questions for doctors would be - what will you do when there is no effective treatment or medicine for a Swine Flu virus that defies conventional medicine? There are 'doctors' that know enough about alternative medicine to give us choices and are legally qualified to do so. The answer from the triage nurse is rather simple- stay home - and tough it out- relying upon your own body and immune system and - cannot be said on the phone or by even a medical practitioner IMHO God to get you and your family through it. Medclinician |
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hope4bestprep4wrst
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 7:52am |
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I hear you. Sorry, did not mean to make an inappropriate request, I understand if specific recommendations are not within the scope of this site, etc.... It is just so frustrating to know that the solutions are out there. But with the internet, we can all do our own research. Thank you for the tips. I am a big fan of osteopaths.
When the treatment options for swine flu run out? What will doctors do? Provide comfort? Isn't that what the doctor did in The Day After? Before he died too?? I wish I knew. Watching people get sick and worse with limited vents and few meds.......I guess that is one reason to read on this topic and try to get a handle. D |
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 8:22am |
Very much as Peter, Paul, and Mary once sang- and if you really want to say it- you have to lay it between the lines. Alternative & Natural Health DisclaimerThe information in the article this disclaimer is linked from should not be considered medical advice. The information in the article this diclaimer is linked from is not meant to treat, diagnose, prescribe or cure any ailment. Always check with your physician before taking any products or following any advice you have read on BrightHub.com. Always consult your doctor before you start, stop or change anything that has been previously prescribed. Certain herbs and holistic remedies are unsuitable to take if you are pregnant or nursing and must always be cleared by your doctor before use. and then... article by Rose Kivi http://www.brighthub.com/health/alternative-medicine/reviews/24655.aspx Back to Eden was first published in 1935. A revised edition was published a few years later. Another revised edition was published in the late sixties, and a final revised edition was published in the late eighties. The later editions leave the original book intact, adding notations of current scientific knowledge. The author, Jethro Kloss, is considered by some to be one of the fathers of vegan health food nutrition. Kloss taught of the benefits of soy, ran his own health food store at one point, and dedicated his life to treating the sick through natural methods. Jethro Kloss lived a healthy life and died in the year 1946 at the age of 83. He left behind a wealth of knowledge on herbs, natural foods and healthy living.Medclinician Back to Eden is one of my three books as noted in the first chapter of my book-PNSG |
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Elver
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Posted: September 13 2009 at 10:17pm |
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Take 2,000 iu of vitamin D3 per day or get 15 minutes of sunshine approx. 3 times a week.
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SusanT
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Posted: September 14 2009 at 6:34am |
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Elver, I have been taking 2000 IU of vitamin D, and I started getting sick yesterday (can't tell if it is the flu or just a cold yet). I am upping it to 4000 IU after reading in a few places either 4000 or 5000 IU for adults. Anyone know how much for children? I started giving my 4 year old 1200 IU per day.
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nettie4263
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Posted: September 14 2009 at 8:47am |
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I give my children (ages 11 and 8) 2,000 iu daily and myself and hubby 5,000 iu. My oldest daughter and I did catch a cold recently, but we both got over it quickly...only 3 days total for each of us. I think it helped, but who knows?
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 14 2009 at 9:08am |
Elver, having been Vitamin D deficient to where they thought I had a parathyroid tumor- I was told (despite having melanoma is at cross purposes with sun for me) you can pick up a lot of I.U. of D pretty quick. Personally I have found moving a lawn with no shirt- in full sun- (sun screen of course) return my abysmal levels of D to normal in about a month. Are you an M.D. Elver? j. medical research |
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Pat
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Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:21am |
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With respect to "natural" cures and such - they didn't do much for the natives in North America when smallpox was brought over from Europe did they?
I agree that modern drugs often come with side effects that are troublesome, but personally, if it comes down to a choice between a flu shot and some herbal tea or other natural product, I know which would be my first choice.
The thing to investigate is just how many companies make money (as do the pharmaceutical companies) from coming up with "cures" or preventatives.
Pat
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Mary008
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Posted: September 15 2009 at 10:56am |
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good Nutrition and sleep...think of the kids who are allowed to stay up late
(parents get it together) and go to school tired and ...with little or no breakfast.
( good Nutrition and sleep, that is the best cure :)
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Medclinician
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Posted: September 15 2009 at 11:01am |
If you do take Tamiflu FluMom as soon as symptoms appear you will ruin the test kits ability to diagnose you with the flu because you will mess up the titer of the virus in your blood. One young girl with Avian couldn't get a positive titer after taking Tamiflu until after she died. The virus has already developed resistant strains to Tamiflu.Giving massive doses of Tamiflu will ruin the effectiveness (100% it was in seasonal in some strains). Tamiflu has multiple possible kicker side effects. It is not a magic bullet. Well it could be for some, but it may not heal the flu. And Mary you know this stuff and posted beside me on Tamiflu resistance. You want to see them knock out both Tamiflu and Relenza- our whole national stockpile of antiviral- and leave us with zip? Medclincian |
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hope4bestprep4wrst wrote: