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| Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Waste Disposal |
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 Topic: Waste DisposalPosted: May 30 2013 at 11:46pm |
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If you live in suburbia how do you figure on taking care of "business"?
With this MERS nCoV or any HN Flu we could be in for a long stay inside our homes. I can't get over this problem. If we have to SIP and we don't have sewer services we have the problem of disposal of our human waste. Just watched Alaska, Last Frontier and they had an out house that they had to put over a new hole. The new hole was about 4X4 and 8 feet deep. They said that hole would last about 6 years for 2 people. You need to dig it at least 200 feet away from home/water/garden. That is difficult in suburbia will have to figure that one out. I have figured out food/water/heat/protection/cooking just need this one important item to take care of and it is a subject NO one likes to talk about. So let's talk! |
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EdwinSm,
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 12:35am |
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There are various composting/seperating toilets that could go into garden shed in an emergancy.
Since you are in suburbia that might work for you. |
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 10:07am |
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Looked at a composting one and I don't want to compost. I still think my only alternative is to dig a large pit if we are going to have to SIP for long time. But keep the suggestions going.
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KiwiMum
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 12:40pm |
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Hi FluMom,
We don't have any flush toilets at our house. We use a composting loo system based on buckets. My husband built a wooden 'toilet' which the bucket sits in and we change the bucket every day. It's easy to empty and we only wash it out with cold water. Our system does not smell and neither do our compost heaps. In fact we have put in a walking track around our land that goes straight past the heaps and not one single person has ever commented on them, even in very hot weather. The alternative is either to bag and bin your waste, which would be very unpleasant to use and to deal with and would stink to high heaven, or to dig a long drop. Here in New Zealand a long drop was still used by many until a few years ago. Even now, lots of people have them at their beach houses. After the Christchurch earthquakes many people dug them in their gardens because the underground pipes were all shattered. In fact a news program here featured them and people emailed in pictures of their long drops! You only need to dig a small hole, maybe 12" x 12", but make it as deep as you can. The soil that you dig out of the hole should be put in buckets and kept dry. Keep one bucket of soil next to the long drop and every time you leave a visible deposit, then chuck in a trowel full of soil to cover. This will keep the flies down. Either erect a small shed over the long drop or use one of those camping shower tents. When the hole is full, dig another one a few feet away and move the tent/shed. Our system is great. We use sawdust as our compost material and after it has composted for 8 months or so, we reuse it again through our system. We are currently using sawdust that has been through our loos twice. It is soft, quite fine grained now and much darker. It has no smell at all except for a lovely earthy smell. After it's composted this time it will go straight into my veg garden. I used to write articles for Collapsenet.com and have one I wrote about our loo system so if you'd like more info I could post it up here but it's quite long. By the way, we've never had any form of upset tummy or illness as a result of our toilet habits. My children wash their hands after using the loo and I disinfect the loo once a week using vinegar (but not inside the bucket).
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KiwiMum
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 12:42pm |
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Here's a link to pictures of the long drops people sent in. Some were really creative. Enjoy!
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 1:26pm |
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Thanks KiwiMum, love the photos...gave me ideas. How far is your loo from your house?
Like the idea of the 12x12 inch hole easier to dig but when I look at the Alaska one you can get it really deep because you get in the hole and dig way down. I guess I will have to figure out how long I will need a loo then figure out how wide and deep. When you live in the Burbs like I do composting is just not an option but a hole loo is possible. I am sure your compost pile does not smell but you have land something Burb people do not have. Your idea of using the hole dirt to cover is great! KiwiMum are a great resource for a city girl who has never had to have a loo. |
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KiwiMum
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 2:16pm |
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Our loo is in our bathroom and looks like a lovely polished wooden box with a toilet seat with lid on the top. The bucket sits inside. So long as there are no poos or pools of liquid showing, there's no smell.
Our compost heaps are about 200m away under a conifer shelterbelt. My grandparents used an outside loo that was a bucket and soil set up and my grandad emptied it every day into a trench in his veg garden and the following summer he planted his runner beans over that trench. I remember using it in the 1970's. Those long drops in Christchurch were the saving grace for many people because without them they would have had to have left their homes. The newspapers offered advice on how to build one but it wasn't needed as most Kiwis have used them as some point in their lives. By the way, we don't put loo roll in our toilet as it takes up too much space and fills the bucket too quickly. I have a pedal bin lined with a plastic bag and we put paper in there. Every other day I take the contents and put it in our incinerator which we fire up once a week.
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 2:29pm |
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Thanks KiwiMum, so how far were the long drops from the houses in Christchurch?
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KiwiMum
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 3:21pm |
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Pretty close by. Most houses only have pocket hankerchief sized gardens these days. The days of the quarter acre section have long gone with most gardens having been sold off as building plots. So the ones I saw on the TV were perhaps between 5ft - 30ft from the house. Most seemed to be at the far end of the garden, so at least along one of the side fences.
Hygiene isn't an issue with a long drop because you are not touching the waste at all, just wiping your bum as usual. Certainly with a long drop I'd put the loo roll down it to. I guess handwashing facilities are useful but not essential. You could always operate a two bucket handwash system outside your back door. (You have two buckets of water. The first is for wetting hands, then you soap up and rinse your hands in the first bucket, then you rinse them again in the second, clean water bucket. Dry thoroughly. Replace buckets daily.) The smell from any toilet is caused by the poo or pee sitting in the open air. So with a long drop the pee drains into the soil, and the poo you cover over with loose soil. Of course if you use paper your long drop will fill much faster because the paper is white and you'll spend ages and alot of soil trying to cover it completely so it looks nicer. We use a tin mug in our compost bucket and all of us can cover a poo with one mug of compost, very rarely do we need two. With paper to cover we'd use 3 or 4 . I guess the depth of your long drop will be predetermined by the water table. In wet mid winter I can dig a hole a foot deep and within an hour it's full of water. If this happens then use my Grandad's trench method. Just use an ordinary bucket and if you can spare it, line it with newspaper. fill with waste and then tip the whole thing including the newspaper into your bean trench and cover with a spade of earth. With this method you'll gradually work your way across your garden enriching the soil. My grandad dug the trench, about 20ft long, and my grandmother would empty her veg peelings etc in the far end every day, and then that evening grandad would tip the toilet bucket over the peelings, swill it out with water and tip that in too, then cover with soil and replace the bucket in the outdoor loo. The next day, Grandma would tip her peelings into the next bit of the trench etc etc. They lived like this their whole life and my Grandfather won prizes every year for his veg!!!! My parents still have the cups he won on their mantlepiece. By the way, the most dangerous bit of any alternative toilet arrangement is the liquid run off, and most specifically the water used to swill out the bucket. When we start a new heap we lay down 10 inches of hay first and put the waste on that. The compost we use soaks up the pee in the toilet and when we empty the bucket the contents are wet but not runny. It tips out in one semi firm mass and then we rake it flat and cover it with hay. It's only after a party that we have a liquid run off. We use 1-2 litres of water to rinse a bucket, and we have an old loo brush for scrubbing any poo marks away but we rarely need to use that. All this may sound unpleasant but it's not. It's a peaceful pleasant job and the view from our heaps is outstanding of the Southern Alps. A compost loo is so quiet to use, there is never any noise or splashing. We find flushing toilets very noisy to use. My children find them very strange. They really find it odd that drinking water is used to flush away human waste. My youngest said the other day that he felt sorry for people with flushing toilets because they had nothing good to put on their gardens!
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 9:03pm |
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Thanks again KiwiMum, My yard is large enough to put the loo 20 - 30 feet away. So that is good, I still don't have the area to do a compost and I just do not have it in me in the city to do a compost.
Your tips are great! |
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debbiencusa
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 9:46pm |
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Buy fly paper its cheap and will be needed. If we figure out a way to deal with our waste properly our neighbors in the burbs may not flies which carry disease will be a problem. Another thought what about infected waste? Will the current disease and others spread from people not knowing how to dispose of waste properly? I think I know the answer, I have heard to use lye to help break down solid waste, is that really true? It is pretty cheap and readily available. How would one try to possibly protect against disease spread due to waste, could disease baring bacteria become airborne or will it take flies and rats to carry from one home to another? Rat traps are also good to have. Cats can keep mice at bay but not rats especially not huge mean ones and then the cat feral or pet can also become sick. Where does the viral chain end?? Seems to me our hope lies in the ability to educate people in the proper best way to get rid of waste. Maybe the dirt will provide a good enough barrier. Someone give their opinion please, thanks Kiwi that is wonderful life saving advise you just gave.
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God Bless
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CStackDrPH
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Posted: May 31 2013 at 11:26pm |
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I've been designing methane-producing anaerobic digesters since the late 1970's, inspired by the pioneering work of the Indian developer Ram Bux Singh (Google "gobar gas"), the Chinese concrete digesters and others. I've used plastic sheets (geotextiles) to build digesters from very small (a few cows) to immense (over 1 million gallons/day food processing effluent).
Add "plastic sheeting" to your prep-kits. It has many uses, and you can easily dig a trench, lay plastic down, and bring the plastic over the top to make a sealed vessel. Poop into this, it will make a bit of gas (enough to boil water) and the process destroys pathogens in the waste. In a pinch, a four person digester will easily fit into a suburban yard. A residence time of about 30 to 60 days is ideal, and since water is conserved, you can recycle water from the discharge and use muddy rain water to maintain its hydraulic level. Here's some further information, you can convert plastic drums etc. There are many blueprints for these on the web. http://shaunsbackyard.com/746/biogas-digester/#more-746
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CRS, DrPH
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KiwiMum
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 2:09am |
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C Stack, I've been interested in building an anaerobic digester for some time but haven't found a suitable design. Ideally I'd like one that could run a rayburn/aga cooker 24/7. I can contribute our human waste (from 4 people), the poo from 2 cows, 2 pigs and about 40 chickens. Would that be enough waste to run one? I don't want to commit to collecting dog and cat muck also.
I'll have a look at those links you posted. Is there anywhere else I should look? I do have access to an excellent local metal worker for welding etc. Ideally I'd like to build something robust and long lasting. We currently use a woodburning rayburn for cooking but I also have a standard gas oven with a gas hob. Could this run on methane? It's such an interesting subject. Many thanks.
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KiwiMum
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 2:18am |
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Debbie, I don't think flies will be a problem if you take basic precautions. I'm basing this on the fact that we don't have fly screens because they make me feel hemmed in. I open every door and window from first light and my kitchen is literally buzzing with flies (which I hate but not as much as I dislike fly screens).
Since I live on a farm of sorts I assume that each fly has been sitting on a turd of some sort or other so during fly season I make sure that a) all food is covered and b) that I wipe down any surface prior to preparing food on it. Also I wash my hands well. These few precautions seem to work just fine with us. In my pantry I do have a cupboard with fly screen doors so I can put a pie or cake there without fly trouble. If other people have hygiene problems, there's no reason why it should affect you so long as you don't let them in your house or go and eat in their house. I went to a party at Christmas at a wealthy friends house. A really beautiful house and they have a lot of money but I was disgusted to see the state of the hand towel in the guest bathroom next to the kitchen, it was foul and hadn't been washed for a long time. If they are drying their hands on something like that and then preparing food....who knows what you could come down with.
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Those who got it wrong, for whatever reason, may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn’t accord with the facts.
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CStackDrPH
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 1:02pm |
Hi KiwiMum! Avoid using metal, as the sulphides in the biogas are very aggressive in attacking iron and will destroy the unit in no time. With the waste flow you are describing, you should easily be able to find a package-plant digester in NZ. This is a Scottish company, see if you can find the equivalent GRP/plastic tanks down your way: BTW, I worked on anaerobic treatment with the old Wool Research Organization of New Zealand (WRONZ) about 15 years ago! Nicest chaps I ever met! NZ has tons of expertise in this area, just ask around. Cheers, Charles
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CRS, DrPH
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KiwiMum
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 1:13pm |
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Thanks Charles, I do know a friendly local plastic tank producer, they made and supplied all the tanks we have on our farm and will make to order. Good tip about not using metal. It's been on our list for a few years now and has finally made it to our top 10 so I will hopefully get onto it soon. We have new pigs arriving in 3 weeks so there'll be a increase in dung. Many thanks.
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A
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 1:27pm |
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Since the vast majority of city sewers are gravity flow there should be no interruption of sewer service. That being said if your water service goes down then you have a problem without a back up source of water to use the sewer system.
I would suggest a luggable LOO which is basically a 5 gallon bucket with a lid. If you go out into your street you'll see manhole covers for the sewer system which will say SEWER on them. Pull the lid and dump the contents of the bucket into the sewer system. Now if you are hesitant about going into the street to dispose of the buckets contents, dig a 2x2 hole 4' deep at the point farthest from your house in your yard and dispose of it there. Covering content with a inch or two of dirt every day or so. If it gets full (and that will take a pretty long time figure 6 months or so) move over 5 to 10 feet and repeat the process. Keeping it simple is the best method and requires no special equipment.
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KiwiMum
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 1:46pm |
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In Christchurch after the earthquakes they had a real problem with exploding loos. The fractured sewage system backed up and stopped flowing. Gas built up in the pipes and without warning exploded back into peoples bathrooms. In some cases it actually hit the ceiling!!! The recommendation was to place a really heavy obstacle on the toilet lid to limit the damage.
If you live in town on the town sewage system you might want to consider fitting a non return valve at the point where the sewage pipe enters your garden. You may have to do this unofficially as the sewage people would rather gas build up explodes into your bathroom than cracks a pipe underground. The pipe is much more expensive to fix than your bathroom is to redecorate. In NZ it is illegal to fit such a value but people do and plumbers will fix them for a cash back hander. If you are the only person on your block with a non return value then it's unlikely to cause a problem to the pipe system, but in the event of the system ceasing to work, then there is no chance of raw sewage ending up in your house. I once worked on a job where a whole town came within 2 hours of raw sewage flowing into each and every bathroom due to a power failure after a major storm. This little town relied on electricity to pump sewage out, up and over a hill. As it happened disaster was averted in the nick of time and the residents never found out just how close they came to having to abandon their homes. If I was fitting out a new bathroom I would definitely fit a drain in the middle of the floor. In Australia this is law, and all bathrooms are tanked out and can just be swilled down with a hose. I think this is a great idea.
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Jonesie
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 2:06pm |
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I have a Commode Chair. If you google commode chair you can go to images and see various styles.
They are available second hand. Mine comes with a slide out bucket, has a cover, and can be carried to the storm sewer in front of my house for disposal of the contents. Or I can dump it into a hole in the ground. The city might object to using storm sewers for human waste. I can set the commode up in my shed ... or in the house in winter. It was the best alternative toilet system I could think of for my own use. A lot of toilet paper is a wise investment also. My grandparents used telephone book pages and sears catalogs in their outhouse years ago..in lieu of toilet paper. I am not well prepared for any upcoming pandemic, as I suffered a back injury and had several operations last winter. So I am just starting to get my long-neglected chores done. But I do have the waste disposal problem covered.  |
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Jonesie
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 2:31pm |
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Walmart, boat and camper supply stores sell Tank Deoderizers. Google Tank Deoderizer and you will see many brands available.
If odor is a problem with your outdoor toilet or commode chair, then this will help kill the odor.  |
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debbiencusa
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 6:53pm |
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It is really nice to know all of you. The intel on this site is amazing. The way people really do think and come up with doable things is so inspiring and impressive. Thanks everyone.
Kiwi, in a pandemic with virus passed in feces I think I am going to use some fly paper, it is totally disgusting I know, but in the country the fly may come from your cow, chicken or just be there, but in the city, they really can carry a lot of disease, too much for me to risk, it is like a fly invasion when we eat our of doors, have no clue where they all come from. I never thought of food nets as a prep but that is a fantastic idea, with water possibly being short covering food with the nets will protect well. Thanks
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God Bless
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Posted: June 01 2013 at 7:40pm |
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Have the explosion problem in hand already.
My plumber told me to go to Home Depot and purchase plumbing plugs aka Dynamite Plugs. Measure every OUT GOING pipe in your house. Your sinks, toilets, floor drains and any other drain Most of mine are 2" but I have some 6" some 1.5". You have to disconnect the drain pipe and put the plug into the pipe and it will keep the poo from exploding into your house. I will make sure even the 3rd floor drains have these plugs. |
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KiwiMum
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Posted: June 02 2013 at 12:07am |
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Debbie, I use fly papers all summer and think they are great. I make the assumption that the last turd the fly was on was a dog turd and so highly dangerous. I never, ever leave food out. Our fruit bowls are covered with a tea towel and we all know to wash any apples before we eat them.
I defrost meat etc inside a giant tupperware box. I can't use a net because my cats will tear it off to get at the meat. I put food on the table when I serve a meal, not beforehand. Pies, cakes and baking is left to cool in the pantry. Leftovers are either put in the pig bucket or covered in glad wrap and put in the fridge. Bread is kept in the bread bin. The biggest risk would surely be unclean surfaces, and the usual culprits: dirty tea towels, dishcloths and hand towels. I don't use disinfectants but keep a large spray bottle under the sink containing a vinegar / water mix in equal measures.
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