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North Korea must be stopped

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WillobyBrat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillobyBrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2017 at 4:26pm
In answer to your posting, FluMom,  I think things have gone too far and are rapidly going to "hell in a handcart" as far as North Korea is concerned.  

I think my childhood hero "Ike" had the right idea after WW2 when he wanted to use around about 20 atomic bombs that were left over on the communists in both China and the USSR (as was).  This was known as the "Nuke them until lthey glow in the dark and then shoot the lights out" policy.  Unfortunately he did not do it, due to opposition at home and we have had 70 years of danger and so-called cold-war.  (That is in itself a bloody joke.)  

I think maybe its time to do what it says on my T-shirt ie.  "KILL THEM ALL AND LET GOD SORT IT OUT!"  because if something is not done shortly, that crazy "cockroach from hell" is going to drop a large amount of smelly stuff right in America's lap.

I can live without a few North Korean loonies, but I would like to keep my American buddies.

Ps. You can reason with Russia; you can reason with China but Pyongyang is going to end up dragging them into the quagmire as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2017 at 4:52pm
keep in mind that NK has THOUSANDS of artillery pieces dug in along the border
some say they are as many as 15,000
they can level Seoul in a  matter of hours
we could eventually destroy all those gun  emplacements
but by that time Seoul would be gone and so would hundreds of thousands of people
“The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.” Gary Kasparov
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2017 at 9:23pm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8atcktOPcY

The Atlantic: Kim Jung Un is more predictable than Trump. The NK goal is clear-avoid an attack by putting up the price. 


International support for any major US action is getting smaller by the day: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-07/us-greatest-threat-peace-world-today-new-poll-finds
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2017 at 9:25pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

"fire and fury"
the updated version of "shock and awe" ?

Yeah, that's the first thing that came to my mind also!  Dead
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GustavSer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 12:26am

Originally posted by Satoeri Satoeri wrote:

keep in mind that NK has THOUSANDS of artillery pieces dug in along the border

some say they are as many as 15,000

they can level Seoul in a  matter of hours we could eventually destroy all those gun  emplacements

but by that time Seoul would be gone and so would hundreds of thousands of people



Are they really crazy or are they just pretending to be crazy so we don't mess with them. That's the question.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 1:49am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 10:24am


Trump Threatens ‘Fire and Fury’ Against North Korea if It Endangers U.S.

BRIDGEWATER, N.J. — President Trump threatened on Tuesday to unleash “fire and fury” against North Korea if it endangered the United States, as tensions with the isolated and impoverished nuclear-armed state escalated into perhaps the most serious foreign policy challenge yet of his administration.

In chilling language that evoked the horror of a nuclear exchange, Mr. Trump sought to deter North Korea from any actions that would put Americans at risk. But it was not clear what specifically would cross his line. Administration officials have said that a pre-emptive military strike, while a last resort, is among the options they have made available to the president.

“North Korea best not make any more threats to the United States,” Mr. Trump told reporters at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J., where he is spending much of the month on a working vacation. “They will be met with fire and fury like the world has never seen.”

Referring to North Korea’s volatile leader, Kim Jong-un, Mr. Trump said, “He has been very threatening beyond a normal state, and as I said, they will be met with fire and fury, and frankly power the likes of which this world has never seen before.”

Undaunted, North Korea warned several hours later that it was considering a strike that would create “an enveloping fire” around Guam, the western Pacific island where the United States operates a critical Air Force base. In recent months, American strategic bombers from Guam’s Andersen Air Force Base have flown over the Korean Peninsula in a show of force.

“Will only the U.S. have option called ‘preventive war’ as is claimed by it?” the Strategic Force of the North’s Korean People’s Army, or K.P.A., said in a statement. “It is a daydream for the U.S. to think that its mainland is an invulnerable Heavenly kingdom.”

“The U.S. should clearly face up to the fact that the ballistic rockets of the Strategic Force of the K.P.A. are now on constant standby, facing the Pacific Ocean and pay deep attention to their azimuth angle for launch,” the statement said.

On Wednesday, Secretary of State Rex W. Tillerson played down the threat. “I think Americans should sleep well at night, have no concerns about this particular rhetoric of the last few days,” he said.

Mr. Trump’s stark comments went well beyond the firm but measured language typically preferred by American presidents in confronting North Korea, and indeed seemed almost to echo the bellicose words used by Mr. Kim. Whether that message was mainly a bluff or an authentic expression of intent, it instantly scrambled the diplomatic equation in one of the world’s most perilous regions.

Supporters suggested that Mr. Trump was trying to get Mr. Kim’s attention in a way that the North Korean leader would understand, while critics expressed concern that the American president could stumble into a war with devastating consequences.



https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/08/world/asia/north-korea-un-sanctions-nuclear-missile-united-nations.html


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 1:24pm
Hey we have tried the "Sanctions" which did not work this nut has nukes and will use them. Clinton, Bush, Obama all did nothing as this nut has built rockets and nukes to kill us and our allies.    I just hope we have enough firepower left to crush NK, after Peacenik Obama downgraded our military.

Like I said, I think we should nuke if he nukes but do you want to be the people the little fat nut nukes first. What if your kid is in the military in Guam or family in Hawaii on vacation. These are his most logical targets because they are "close". Russia and China are not going to do anything they will try to invade us after a NK attack and if we are weak in any way they will try.

What Liberals do not understand is the U.S. is a prize to Socialists and Communists because we are Capitalists and make and have money and a great life even for the poorest of us.

I have purchased more KI and I think I may need it for my son and I. If he hits California the fall out will drift across the U.S.     
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 1:32pm
Hawaii is holding preparedness drills, and an LDS mailing list I subscribe to just raised their "prep-con" status for the first time. Time to gas up the vehicles and review last minute preps, methinks. We're definitely in uncharted waters right now.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 3:10pm
odd how all the talk is on taking out DRNK,
it will be easy ,
he out gunned ,
no match for the USA,

all over in Days..............HEARD IT ALL BEFORE



it wont go anywhere just sabre rattling

Kim will be gone soon 

dagger in the back,or crossbow on the Dunny(aussie for Toilet)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2017 at 9:31pm
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/05/130527-map-video-balloon-bomb-wwii-japanese-air-current-jet-stream/

Balloon bombs aimed to be the silent assassins of World War II. Hitching a ride on a jet stream, these weapons from Japancould float soundlessly across the Pacific Ocean to their marks in North America.

Still largely unknown, these armaments were a byproduct of an atmospheric experiment by the Axis power. In the 1940s, the Japanese were mapping out air currents by launching balloons attached with measuring instruments from the western side of Japan and picking them up on the eastern side.

(DJ-What Japan did NK can do !)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2017 at 4:11am
http://www.newsweek.com/north-korea-attack-us-likely-deadliest-nation-history-645106

The Hwasong-14, which was tested twice last month, is believed to be capable of transmitting a roughly 500-kilogram warhead with the capacity to produce an explosion equivalent to 15 kilotons of TNT, comparable to the so-called "Little Man" atomic bomb that was dropped by the U.S. Air Force on Hiroshima, killing over 75,000 people at the end of World War Two. Pollack said a modern version of such a warhead, considered low-yield by today's standards, has the potential to kill hundreds of thousands of people.

To quantify the deadly effects of a nuclear strike, nuclear historian Alex Wellerstein developed the aptly named NukeMap, which allows users to calculate various nuclear scenarios, including preset coordinates of major cities around the world and different types of weapons of various yields. For example, a direct strike with a 15 kiloton nuclear warhead on Newsweek's office in downtown Manhattan would kill an estimated 174,640 people and injure 291,630 more. An attack on downtown Los Angeles produces over 100,000 fatalities and a nuclear strike on the Capitol Building in Washington takes out about 77,490 people. These numbers account for only one warhead, and not multiple strikes, which some experts say would be more likely.

https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/

Wellerstein, who is an assistant professor at the Stevens Institute of Technology and runs the Nuclear Secrecy Blog, told Newsweek that analysts typically factor in two key elements when calculating the devastation of a nuclear warhead: explosive power and accuracy. While the previous figures were gathered using a 15 kiloton, he said North Korea may have detonated devices twice as powerful as that and that more powerful ones may be on the way. With such a warhead, even a relatively low-accuracy ICBM could "take a chunk out of Los Angeles pretty easily" and "put the hurt on it in a way that would still be unprecedented for America's own experiences."

Pollack echoed this point, saying it's easy to see why major cities would be "an attractive target" because of the high fatality rate even with relatively inaccurate missiles. A recent analysis conducted by aerospace engineer John Schilling and posted to North Korea monitoring group 38 North said the current inception of Hwasong-14 is likely only a threat to the U.S.'s West Coast, but that improvements made as soon as early next year could extend this reach to cities in the east, including Washington. Other experts have already labeled most of the U.S. mainland as a viable target.

North Korea's notoriously secretive nature makes it difficult to know just where Kim would strike if he chose to do so, but Pollack points to a 2013 photograph in which the leader may have let slip important state secrets. Using enhanced imagery, researchers were able to examine a war map spotted in a picture of Kim and his military brass and discover what they believed to be four marked U.S. targets, including those in or near Louisiana, California, Washington and Hawaii.

Pollack identified the likely destinations for North Korea's missiles, according to the map, as Lousiana's Barksdale Air Force Base, the Pacific Fleet's home port in San Diego, the Pentagon in Virginia and, finally, what's likely Pearl Harbor. The Hawaiian naval base served as the target for an Imperial Japanese attack that killed about 2,400 soldiers and facilitated the U.S.'s entry into World War Two in 1941.

As for the capabilities of the U.S.'s anti-ICBM systems to defend the country from such a historic assault, Pollack says he has "grave doubts about its ability to do its job." Schilling told Newsweek last month that "U.S. missile defenses under ideal circumstances work about 50 percent of the time," noting that the sudden launching of multiple, unknown ICBM's would be much more unpredictable than the usual test conditions. The Pentagon itself expressed concerns about the system's viability last month, with spokesperson Jeff Davis admitting it had experienced "mixed results."

comment: What is the most disturbing is how close we are to some type of actually military action. Given the military strength of the U.S. and the desire "to make a point to North Korea and the World" this is likely to not be a surgical strike but will result in many civilian casualties.

Still, and Kim Jong-un has reason to be worried, the most effective action would be regime change - taking him out of power - before many people die.

Our nuclear defenses are not 100% effective and the tests have only been for the most part taking down a single projectile as opposed to dozens fired at once. In this event, it is likely than one would get through if not more.

Neither Russia nor China has stated they would back us (the U.S) if this resulted in actual nuclear launch and detonation. The would be no way to limit fatalities and if Seoul goes down it is likely that other flashpoints around the world will escalate.

China still does not want to see a regime change in North Korea which was stated days ago, once more. It is their safety zone against the massive U.S. presence on their doorstep and South Korea.

There is a limit to the "if you don't stop, we are going to hurt you bad" rhetoric from both sides.

None of the mainstream media at this point has much credibility on anything.

Medclinician - The Real News CWN - Global Independent Media - GIM.



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2017 at 4:48am
North Korea Submarine missile threat - current - August 3, 2017

Medclinician


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2017 at 10:01am
We do have a worse case scenario. Two highly volatile leaders - President Trump and Kim Jong-un on a collision course in Guam. The government is united on the fact that neither sanctions or diplomacy is going to diffuse this situation.  America - via Trump - has truly put themselves with the waving bone in the air scenario from 2001 Space Odyssey. While some are waffling as whether we will use nukes, Trump is not. 

What has been missed in this is that it doesn't matter whether we or Japan can intercept the missile. If it is launched, we will launch. Very few countries commenting on what they will do if America declares war on North Korea.

I have heard my lines from the game I wrote World War III from Crystalware and later inspired War Games "the only way to win is not to play".  In the 80s I felt we needed to cut down the nuclear arsenals and some of my words even found their way into the Salt Peace talks and were on the evening news.

Sadly, and ironically, I think I am listened to more now, by more people, and yet - I now think the only way to lose this game - is not to play. If we back down and do not follow through, the U.S. will lose in a way on the world stage that will encourage dozens of other wanna-be nuke nations to not only develop, but launch them in there bush and tribal wars, in the middle East, and even Iran will strike Jerusalem in the aftermath.

Russian forces are circling the U.S. and one cannot predict how bad it could get, but we know it could escalate globally.

Regime change. And this is opposed by both China and Russia - is the only solution which may save lives and stop millions from dying.

Medclinician


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2017 at 11:00am
We should have settled this along time ago!


It seems strangely difficult for some to realize that here in Asia is where the communist conspirators have elected to make their play for global conquest, and that we have joined the issue thus raised on the battlefield; that here we fight Europe's war with arms while the diplomats there still fight it with words; that if we lose the war to communism in Asia the fall of Europe is inevitable, win it and Europe most probably would avoid war and yet preserve freedom. As you pointed out, we must win. There is no substitute for victory.

Douglas MacArthur letter to congress   5 April 1951

And just an FYI for our younger members, we have an armistice with NK! We are basically still in a state of war (or police action if you prefer) with them. Under international law either side can resume hostilities with prior notice at any time!
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Clap  Well said, Arirish!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillobyBrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 10 2017 at 1:14pm
Absolutely right Arirish!  

When I was a young boy in New Zealand, I watched American aircraft landing on the airfield beside the transit camp we were living in at the time in Ashburton (South Island New Zealand).  Every few days these twin engined aircraft (Dakotas) loaded with wounded men, who seemed just boys, were flown away; presumably taking them to hospital.  Twin engined fighter bomber aircraft also arrived there.  I remember it all clearly because the young pilots and crew made an absolute fuss of me giving me chewing gum and American chocolate bars etc..  I was also allowed to sit in their airplanes and had a model of a mustang fighter made of pressed tin they had given to me, until I was in my 30s when it got lost with moving around back in England.

That would have been about 1950 or so I believe.  My big brother went to Korea with the military and fortunately did not get injured by the experience.  I am 73 years old now.  I was just a kid then, so this has been going on for an entire generation and people died like flies on both sides in Korea back then.  It is about time it was stopped.  If that means blowing The crazy cockroach and his evil cabal through the gates of hell: where they belong!  - then so be it.  My only regret is that I am too old and damaged to be beside the men that will have to do the job with an L1A1 in my hands or whatever the present military rifle is - as long as it is not one of those damn silly SA80 rabbit-guns they supply our soldiers with now.

Incidentally, does anyone else think our government is stupid sending our soldiers to war with rifles of the caliber we used to shoot hares with when I was a kid, when the enemy are using 7.62s (WIN308)? 

Like I have said before, time to kill Kim Jong Un and all the rest of them.  Let God sort it out.  I certainly don't think there is any of them worth saving.  Maybe America should send a few pairs of balls over there, so his whimpering cohorts can have a transplant and gain the courage to shoot the son-of-a-bitch.

Apologies for the language, Albert, but that little SOB is really beginning to piss me off.  'And no way can he be held up as typical of Korean people.  If anyone hears that he is being hit, please let me know.  I WOULD JUST LOVE TO SEE THOSE B1s FLYING!
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Well I have my son keeping his gas tank full. We have a plan for him to come home BOB in tow if the crazy fat kid hits Guam. We will respond and if it is with a nuke or conventional weapons we will be at war and no telling what Russia or China will do. Movie Red Dawn is a great example.   I am looking at sheltering at home with fallout and looking at purchasing a Geiger counter.

I do not believe NK can hit the heartland yet but fallout is a real concern. I just purchased more KI.

Folks any of you know Asian tradition of "Saving Face"? Well this crazy fat kid said he would hit Guam Mid August...next week. If he does not hit Guam he loses "Face". I can't see him not doing what he said he was going to do!

Trump is right he is not daring NK. Trump is just doing what should have been done long ago telling them we will crush you. I would be getting out of Guam if I could.
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http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/07/24/how-to-take-down-kim-jong-un-215411?cmpid=sf

But there is an opportunity in Kim’s obsession with survival. While he assumes the United States would not start a catastrophic war to stop his nuclear program, he also knows that were he to start that war, the U.S. would have no reason to hold back. We could, and likely would, destroy his regime. This means that even if we can’t prevent North Korea from gaining the ability to hit us or our allies, we can deter it from actually doing so, and thus have time to pursue, by means more effective than sanctions and less dangerous than war, our ultimate goal of a reunified Korea that threatens no one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 3:01am
There appears to be a continuation of the schism between Trump and his administration.  He is threatening and they appear to be conciliating.   I think he is in the right and they are displaying cowardice, conciliation has failed up until now.  But, that is just my opinion.  

When it comes to the exercise of democracy, Trump is probably in the wrong by trying to subdue the rest of his team.  But, that is not the story in the run-up to war.  Make no mistake.  That is what this is and what it should be.  Conscientious objection/diplomacy is almost always the best option, but that would have left Hitler unopposed.  I believe KJU to be just as evil.  

Just imagine Hitler with nuclear tipped ICBMs!

Crack the whip Donny!  Executive powers were invented for just such a situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 7:59am

Someone Flipped Trump’s Hair With Kim Jong Un’s, And It’s Absolutely Unnerving


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-kim-jong-un-hair_us_598d2510e4b0909642960d20?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

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'Actually suits both of them!LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 8:44am
There is a serious situation here.  As I thought before, neither China or Russia is going to sit back while we preempitively attack North Korea.

If I were an adviser to Kim Jong-un I would say - don't attack anything. Just keep building and getting stronger for when you will.  This may be what his key advisers are telling him. Keep trashing America in rhetoric, demonstrations, and the media - but don't launch.

It would be suicide to do so. Also, we are hearing mixed messages from China.

https://www.rt.com/news/399310-china-prevent-us-strike-nkorea/


I wanted to go over some of the stuff in this RT article. I do think it mirrors the sentiment right now of China and probably Russia as well.

China will prevent the US and South Korea from carrying out strikes on North Korea and trying to overthrow the leadership there, but will remain neutral if Pyongyang launches missiles at American targets first, the state-run Global Times said.

comment: So, as I said, they don't want us taking Kim Jong-un out. He is a proxy thorn in the U.S. side and buffer zone from American and South Korean military.

Also there are some subtle but important innuendos here.

Beijing should make it clear that “if North Korea launches missiles that threaten US soil first and the US retaliates, China will stay neutral,” the Global Times wrote.

Problem here. Is Guam U.S. soil? Or at least does China think so. We have to remember China is currently under the impression the South China Sea is Chinese soil. We have been hovering near a war there for years. What will China do it Kim Jong-un launches on Guam and we vaporize North Korea?

There are some spooky words here which bother me a lot...

But if the US and its ally South Korea take on Pyongyang and try to “overthrow the North Korean regime and change the political pattern of the Korean Peninsula, China will prevent them from doing so,” the paper stressed.

comment: this would be an act of war and result in World War III.  It is also unlikely the Russian will stay out of this and just watch China and the U.S. fight.

This is important because Russia still has the most nukes by 200 although these figures are subject to real verification.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 8:51am
Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

'Actually suits both of them!LOL
Hairswap


I think this is called "comic relief" --- drum roll.

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/comic-relief


Perhaps they will find this on some buried computer a century after the war.  There are "hot wings" i.e. food and "hot fingers on the trigger" driven by massive egos and whose whatever is the "biggest".

Yet looks aside, hair especially, we nearing a real crisis.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 10:21am
Quite honestly, I can't be too excited about NK having an ICBM. 

All they have proven is that they can launch a can straight up in the air.  No proof of targeting, no re-entry vehicle, no proof of a viable warhead design etc. 

If they wanted to strike the USA with precision, they'd smuggle the warhead into the USA, plant it in a city, and detonate it at will.  That is an old Soviet strategy ("backpack nuke"), and they are being helped by former USSR missile and bomb technicians. 

Kim Jong Un wants attention, we are giving it to him.  If we want to strangle him, punish the Chinese banks and put in a naval embargo.  I'd also target his command staff by tracking down their money and taking it.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 12:19pm
CRS, DrPH, I think you are correct. "Words as weapons" is not proof of W.M.D.. The bases for western agression against Iraq, Libya, Syria, Yemen, governmentchange in Ukraine was "not strong". 

I can imagine that China and Russia are winning the "cold war"between the US and NK. (Trump has not much support international, tradewars worsen EU-US relations.)



One of the reasons NK can be this form of a stalinist dictatorship is in history. From 1910 to 1945 Korea was the victum of an axis-power; Japan. Koreans were treated as slaves or less. In 1950-53 up to 15% of the NK population was killed by carpet-bombing. Korea has had a horror-history. The NK people believe that their government can provide some safety by getting nuclear weapons. 

The US point of view that NK has to give in to the US demands is not shared by Russia and China. They (and others) would also like to see the US taking de-escalating steps. 

President Eisenhower warned for the military-industrial-complex getting to much power. The present crisis is good for some shareholders-but bad for most people !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 12:29pm
Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Quite honestly, I can't be too excited about NK having an ICBM. 

All they have proven is that they can launch a can straight up in the air.  No proof of targeting, no re-entry vehicle, no proof of a viable warhead design etc. 

If they wanted to strike the USA with precision, they'd smuggle the warhead into the USA, plant it in a city, and detonate it at will.  That is an old Soviet strategy ("backpack nuke"), and they are being helped by former USSR missile and bomb technicians. 

Kim Jong Un wants attention, we are giving it to him.  If we want to strangle him, punish the Chinese banks and put in a naval embargo.  I'd also target his command staff by tracking down their money and taking it.  



You are thinking intelligently and unfortunately it would appear emotions are running high as well as political posturing and rhetoric.

There are battles in which it is hard to determine although not which side, but who fired the first shot.  A preemptive strike on North Korea by the U.S. will start a nuclear war. Although China does not possess the thousands of nukes America does, it does have some very advanced technology - liquid propellant and also as the Russians - it could bring a low flying drone like missile under our defenses in which a single missile could take out most of Texas. This is a reality.

I once asked the governor of a state what the greatest lesson I could learn from him in politics if I ever decided to run for office or become active in the government in some way. He told me...
"Don't tell anyone no. Tell them it sounds interesting and then give them numbers to call that might help them."

Well China has been passing the buck to North Korea since the war and has created a buffer zone and proxy to fight with the U.S.. They don't have to say no when we ask them to help with North Korea. They just say yes and then don't. They go along with sanctions and still are selling oil to North Korea.

"We will stop you" now the latest statement by the Chinese means just that. They will attack.

A real problem is many look at the way Kim Jong-un has been threatening us with imminent doom for a long time. Obama's way to handle it was to ignore him.  It put off the solution as we have the government debt which may bring us to our knees in a month. Yet we are past the point of stalling and have a young crazy big guy in power.  How old is Kim Jong-un?

Born:Jan 8, 1982, (North Korean records), Jan 8, 1983, (South Korean records), Jan 8, 1984, (American records), Jul 5, 1984, (Swiss records), Pyongyang, Democratic People's Republic of Korea

By American records he turned 35 on Jan 8.

John F. Kennedy, our 35th President was 45 when he was sworn in. While nothing like Kim Jong-un - youth has its fire and passion and also craziness. It may be that life becomes more precious as people become older and less likely to set off World War III.

JFK gave the order to stop the Russians and we all were on our knees doing drills in homeroom that day. Now Guam is trying to plan what do in case of a nuclear attack.

Most of the cities in the U.S. - especially San Jose near where I live - have no plan in case we are hit. I doubt Los Angeles or Seattle do either. It is extremely doubtful New York does.

The point is - it is much more likely the order will be given to attack by Trump than any president in office since Kennedy except for maybe Bush who ordered the invasion of Iraq. However the first shot had been fired, rather scud missiles hitting Israel and there was really no choice.

Second is, Saddam Hussein ordered a missile attack on Israel knowing we could nuke Baghdad.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/19/sprj.irq.main/

Kim Jong-un may in desperation, if he thinks he will never get to attack or shame the U.S. in some way, order a launch. Could be tonight. That is what is disturbing.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 12:38pm
The Aussies will back the U.S. if it comes down to a war.

The U.S. does have allies and there are treaties in place and perhaps even sadly for Australia, they will be drawn in.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2017/aug/11/turnbull-pledges-support-to-us

Malcolm Turnbull has made it plain that Australia will be involved in any conflict in the event North Korea attacks the United States.

The prime minister told 3AW on Friday morning “if there is an attack on the US, the Anzus treaty would be invoked” and Australia would come to the aid of the United States.

He said the form of Australia’s engagement would be determined in consultation with allies. “In terms of defence, we are joined at the hip,” Turnbull said.

comment: They are valuable allies and it is clear all of our allies are united against North Korea.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 1:53pm
Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Quite honestly, I can't be too excited about NK having an ICBM. 

All they have proven is that they can launch a can straight up in the air.  No proof of targeting, no re-entry vehicle, no proof of a viable warhead design etc. 

If they wanted to strike the USA with precision, they'd smuggle the warhead into the USA, plant it in a city, and detonate it at will.  That is an old Soviet strategy ("backpack nuke"), and they are being helped by former USSR missile and bomb technicians. 

Kim Jong Un wants attention, we are giving it to him.  If we want to strangle him, punish the Chinese banks and put in a naval embargo.  I'd also target his command staff by tracking down their money and taking it.  

I Hope you are right,Chuck.  I suspect you are - you usually are.  

That would mean that the damage NK could do is far less.  But it does not change my point.  The longer we  leave it, the worse it gets.  Assuming you are correct, this means we are still in time to stop the cockroach   If we wait until he perfects the system/weaponry then it may be too late to get rid of him.  Then we will have to deal with a nuclear power controlled by an egomaniac with all the empathy of an autistic child with an ant farm.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 3:01pm
its all posturing,

nothing will happen ,

China has DPRK right where it wants it,

China also "OWNS" Pakistan,

if Kim Fires a missile ,it is to warn off the USA 

"keep away from OUR islands"

this has nothing to do with DPRK

its all to do with China's expandtion

every time the "nine dash line "is threatend 

Kim ups the Ante.............Image result


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 3:06pm
and guess where it all leads.......

"The Great Southern land"....AUSTRALIA........and all our Empty Space and Mineral wealth

a very nice Juicy Plum.......

all ripe for the Plucking..............

they Buying up big Cattle stations very remote locations AS I WRITE ,

easy to fly planes in undetected,they could have 50,000 troops in before any one wakes up

good moive if you never watched it ......

Image result
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 3:35pm
we Only 22 million,in a very very BIG COUNTRY






<-viewer-group>
Australia's Size Compared. Australia is the planet's sixth largest country after Russia, Canada, China, the USA, and Brazil. At 7 692 024 km2, it accounts for just five percent of the world's land area of 149 450 000 km2, and although it is the smallest continental land mass, it is the world's largest island.

Australia's Size Compared - Geoscience Australia

www.ga.gov.au/scientific-topics/national-location.../australias-size-compared
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 10:06pm
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-11/does-kim-jong-uns-strategy-make-sense

Conclusion

The bottom line is that the United States cannot afford to attack the DPRK. Pyongyang will continue to develop its own nuclear arsenal, with Beijing's covert blessing in spite of its officially continuing to condemn these developments. At the same time, South Korea is likely to persevere with a hostile attitude, especially in regard to the deployment of new THAAD batteries. Sooner or later, Seoul will come to a breaking point as a result of further restrictions on trade between China and South Korea. As long as Seoul is able to absorb Chinese sanctions, little will change.

What will lead to a major change in the region will be the economic effect of these restrictions that will eventually oblige Seoul to consider its role in the region and its future. Seoul's leadership is aware of three situations that will hardly change, namely: Pyongyang will never attack first; Beijing will continue to support North Korea rather than accept the United States on its border; and Washington is not able to bring solutions but only greater chaos and a worsening global economic situation to the region. In the light of this scenario, time is all on the side of Beijing and Pyongyang. Eventually the economic situation for Seoul will become unbearable, bringing it to the negotiating table with a weakened and certainly precarious position. Beijing and Pyongyang have a long-term common goal, which is to break the bond of submission between South Korea and the United States, freeing Seoul from Washington's neo-conservative programs to contain China (on a Russia containment model).

Indirectly coordinated work between Beijing and Pyongyang is hardly understandable to Western analysts, but examining every aspect, especially with regard to cause-and-effect relationships, these decisions are not so incomprehensible and even more rational in a broader viewing of the region and its balance of power. On the one hand, Seoul sees the DPRK offering peace, stability and prosperity based on a framework agreement between Seoul, Pyongyang and Beijing. This would also particularly benefit South Korean trade with China, eventually returning to normal relationships between countries, with important economic benefits.

The alternative is an alliance with Washington that would completely eliminate the economic benefits of a healthy relationship with Beijing. This could even potentially lead to a war involving millions of deaths, fought on South Korean soil and not in the United States. The United States does not offer any solutions to South Korea, either in the short or long term. The only thing Washington is offering is a fixed presence in the country, together with a stubborn anti-Chinese policy that would have serious economic consequences for Seoul.

As paradoxical as it may seem, Kim Jong-un's rockets are much less of a threat than is Seoul’s partnership with Washington in the region, and in fact seem to offer Seoul the ultimate solution to the crisis in the peninsula.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 11 2017 at 10:12pm
Another aspect, NK is not the only small country with nuclear weapons. They took that idea from Israel. 

It has been suggested that North Korea has sought to model its nuclear weapons programme on Israel's, as "a small-state deterrent for a country surrounded by powerful enemies; to display enough activity to make possession of a nuclear device plausible to the outside world, but with no announcement of possession: in short, to appear to arm itself with an ultimate trump card and keep everyone guessing whether and when the weapons might become available."[10]
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 7:03am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

Another aspect, NK is not the only small country with nuclear weapons. They took that idea from Israel. 

It has been suggested that North Korea has sought to model its nuclear weapons programme on Israel's, as "a small-state deterrent for a country surrounded by powerful enemies; to display enough activity to make possession of a nuclear device plausible to the outside world, but with no announcement of possession: in short, to appear to arm itself with an ultimate trump card and keep everyone guessing whether and when the weapons might become available."[10]

Thanks, DJ, I was just thinking of that myself!!  

NK won't negotiate its nukes away, I wouldn't.   We should try to engage them at a high level (including Kim's generals, who can't be sleeping well at night), and see if we can urge them towards change. 

It worked with Burma (Myanmar), who were similarly militaristic and closed as a society.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 8:35am
Pakistan has nukes.  It is a fairly backward country and heavily Islamic - which slows down progress.  But it is progressing toward a higher level of civilization.

India has nukes.  It has lots of problems and it is always conflicted with Pakistan.  However, it does not threaten anyone else and is slowly growing in civilization.

Israel has nukes.  It treats the Palestinians horribly - though probably with good reason.  It only protects itself.  It may behave badly towards the Palestinians but still its nukes are defensive not offensive.  It believes in tolerance - you can have a church and a mosque in Israel - even if it regularly fails to achieve it.

France has nukes.

Britain has nukes.

Russia has nukes and has refrained from using them even during the Cuban missile crisis.


South Africa has had nukes.

China has nukes.

America has nukes.  It has used them in anger - the only one who has.

But none of the above seriously threaten their neighbors.  Skirmishes about Ukraine and tussles in the middle east stand no logical chance of escalating into nuclear conflict.

I can't say that about North Korea.  NK is one of the most repressive regimes on the planet.  It strives for nuclear weapons whilst its people starve.  It threatens others openly.  Its totalitarian leader does this to stay in power, BECAUSE THAT POWER IS ALL THEY CARE ABOUT.

If Iran developed such weapons tomorrow, or one of the 'stans or anyone else except possibly Zimbabwe, I would feel less threatened than by NK.

KJU has no moral concerns about people, the very definition of a psychopath.  This state is different, Absolutely Different!  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 4:03pm
We need to learn from history! All of Europe tried to appease Hitler and that did not work. This kid is just a crazy as Hitler and you all think we can appease him, let him have his nukes and he will be a good boy. With 1.5 billion people in China to back him up are you guys crazy as that kid.

China and Russia are not innocents in this picture. They would love for the crazy fat kid to strike us to see where we are weak.

Better get ready for a ride if this kid has to save face and set off 4 rockets, nukes or not he will test to see if we can knock them out of the air. He has to do something to save face because he said he would send the rockets. Just the mind of an Asian.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 4:06pm
any pre-emptive strike would bring China into it,

China has said ,"if DPRK strikes fist they would remain neutral"

which means if the USA attacks first they will side with DPRK


thats how i read that statement

so NOTHING WILL HAPPEN

ALL SMOKE AND MIRRORS..............

WAKE UP !!!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 4:10pm
And you trust what China says...lol! That is like trusting Hitler. Hitler quote,"If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 4:40pm
China apparently just told NK that If they attack America they are on their own; not that they would actually do anything.  Assuming America attacks NK, then this would also anger China.  Not that they would do anything then either.

China would prefer it if everyone in the region got on better, as that stability is good for China's interests.  But, doing anything other than argue is just not in their nature.  "Its the economy stupid!" is their mantra.  Human rights, international relations and political fairness all take a back seat to business.

So, to save face, they would scream and shout, but actually do nothing - too expensive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 11:01pm
If diplomacy has to play a role in international affairs trust is the basis. 

http://www.reformed-theology.org/html/books/wall_street/chapter_07.htm and many other sources make clear that "the west" financed hitler. Obviously the goal was that Germany-after being responsible for puting Lenin in Russia to end the two-front-war in 1917-had to deal with the Soviet Union. Those who financed the nazi's did loose a lot of investments in Russia in 1917. 

Indirectly hitler came to power by support from European royals, (including the Dutch and UK royal families), German and US industrials, Ford, Krupp, also the Bush-family.

Kim Jung Un is a terrible dictator but the outcome of a historic proces. When NK has to give up its nuclear weapons the US has to bring down its military in South Korea. 

There are stories that Israel already had a nuclear bomb in 1967-6 day war. In 1973-Yom Kipour-the Soviet Union unloaded nuclear weapons in Alexandria-Egypt. Israeli forces were 80 kilometres from Cairo, 30 kilometres from Damascus. Israeli nuclear weapons  were one of the reasons for the Camp David peace talks. 

North Korea only gets more dangerous by isolation. China and Russia-neighbours-know that some contacts have to remain. 

You do not become an international leader by being insane, still clever people can do stupid things (Bay of Pigs, USS Liberty, Gulf of Tonkin). Kim Jung Un and Trump are responsible for their (in)action. 

The number of military that believe in a military way to deal with NK must be very limited. The US has to get realistic-it is not longer the only superpower that can tell other countries what to do. When the US has a problem with that then maybe the US is much more a problem than NK is.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2017 at 11:37pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2017 at 6:30am
[QUOTE=carbon20]and guess where it all leads.......

"The Great Southern land"....AUSTRALIA........and all our Empty Space and Mineral wealth

a very nice Juicy Plum.......

all ripe for the Plucking..............

they Buying up big Cattle stations very remote locations AS I WRITE ,

easy to fly planes in undetected,they could have 50,000 troops in before any one wakes up
]QUOTE]

I agree with you. Yet I am sure we (The U.S.) would launch if they attacked Australia. An unfortunately, now with the statement of support for the U.S. in this they are  a prime target.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2017 at 6:46am
This is not all bluff and rhetoric.  There is not some secret peace process going on the shadows that has been productive or is promising. While a line may be open, Kim Jong-un has gone past asking for food or lifting sanctions. He wants recognition and acceptance of North Korea -
Democratic People's Republic of Korea (D.P.R.K. or North Korea)
conventional short form: North Korea
local long form: 조선민주주의인민공화국
as a world nuclear power that be allowed to continue to develop a nuclear arsenal that is a threat to America and its allies.
The last thing the social-justice-warriors want to see is Trump as a tough commander-in-chief of the U.S. military and using methods not in the playbook of any president in history against the D.P.R.K.
Everyday, not only does the war of words escalate, but the chances of a nuclear war.  We have many taking the stance "this too shall pass" but they do not realize how the leaders are being pushed off a cliff by the sheer momentum of current events.
People need to be prepared.  And on AFT (AvianFluTalk - http:avianflutalk.com) we have been saying this for years. From Pandemic to Avian Flu to 2009 - today we are in the greatest risk America has been in since World War II.

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