Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
SECONDARY PNEUMONIA FROM SEVERE FLU |
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apomales
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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"Typically, influenza causes death due to a secondary bacterial pneumonia. Bacteria are able to take advantage of the host’s compromised immune status and damaged lung cells, establishing a potentially deadly infection. However, during the 1918 pandemic, a greater percentage of the deaths in the 20-45 age group were due to primary pneumonia: pneumonia caused by a combination of the influenza virus and the host response, with no bacterial invaders involved. In some patients, this occurred within a matter of hours from the first symptoms. A Pennsylvania medical student documented the phenomenon:
As their lungs filled, the patients became short of breath and increasingly cyanotic. After gasping for several hours, they became delirious and incontinent, and many died struggling to clear their airways of a blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and mouth. It was a dreadful business." Source :aetiologyblogspot.com |
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apomales
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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Protective effect of pneumococcal vaccine against death by pneumonia in elderly subjects
A. Vila-Córcoles1, O. Ochoa-Gondar1, C. Llor1, I. Hospital1, T. Rodríguez2 and A. Gómez1 1 EVAN-65 Group of Primary Care Service Tarragona-Valls, Institut Catalá de la Salut, Tarragona, and 2 Dept of Statistic and Research of Jordi Gol i Gurina, Barcelona, Spain. CORRESPONDENCE: A. Vila-Corcoles, Institut Català de la Salut, Prat de la Riba 39, Tarragona 43001, Spain. Fax: 34 977226411. E-mail: avila.tarte.ics@gencat.net Keywords: Effectiveness, elderly, mortality, pneumococcal vaccine, pneumonia Received: March 15, 2005 Accepted August 14, 2005 The present study assessed the effectiveness of the 23-valent pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine to prevent pneumonia and death in older adults in a first-time report between January and December 2002. A prospective cohort study was conducted including all individuals 65 yrs of age assigned to one of eight primary care centres in Tarragona, Spain (n = 11,241). The primary outcomes were community-acquired pneumonia (hospitalised or outpatient) and death from pneumonia. All pneumonias were validated by checking clinical records. The association between the pneumococcal vaccination and the risk of each outcome was evaluated by means of multivariate Cox proportional-hazard models, adjusted by age, sex, influenza vaccination status, comorbidity and immunological status. Pneumococcal vaccination did not alter the risk of hospitalisation from pneumonia (hazard ratio (HR): 0.80; 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.50–1.28) or overall pneumonia (HR: 0.86; 95% CI: 0.56–1.31), but the vaccine was associated with considerable reductions of death risk from pneumonia (HR: 0.28; 95% CI: 0.09–0.83). In conclusion, these results suggest that pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine may not be effective in reducing the incidence of pneumonia, but may be able to diminish the severity of the infection. These findings support the effectiveness of the pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine to prevent mortality caused by pneumonia in older adults, providing a new argument to recommend systematic vaccination in the elderly. |
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Corn
Valued Member Joined: December 13 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1219 |
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From above: "the vaccine was associated with considerable reductions of death risk from pneumonia." good enough for me. minimuize death from complications if I do get it. |
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Simply put, if you get the vax, you will live. You can't beat that deal! I sure wish there was a way to let the world know. We should all be pushing our friends and families to get this done. Even the worst BF critics seem to get it done when you tell them. Try it! |
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apomales
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 71 |
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http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2296/1/1#IDAYSRPAB
Pretty good article on effectivness of pneumonia vaccine, there appears to be a lot of controversy on its effectiveness, considering there is little else available other than anti-virals, I still think it's worth getting. One last thing some parents mentioned the difficulty of getting the shot from the health department. It may help to get a script from the pediatrician (if the doctor will comply). The Health Department told me that I have to bring a copy of my children's shot records. It is much more difficult to get this shot for children than adults. My pediatrician also referred me to the County Health Department. I plan to ask my pediatrician for a script to take to the Health Department (best not to even mention bird flu). |
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Good Job Apomales ! |
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Marjo
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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Hi everybody,
got my pneumo vax an hour ago!! . They said it included the meningitis-strain, so I've got that covered too The vaccin was Pneumo-23. I had to pay 35 euro (that's what, 40 dollar?) There were no questions asked, even though I'm a healthy 42 LOL Thanks for the advice to get this shot!!! Marjo, The Netherlands |
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Marjo my friend. I have been waiting until today for you to update us. I would tell you that I thought about you last night, but it might not sound right LOL. This is going to be a good day! GOOD JOB!
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drizztcat
advanced Member Joined: January 16 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 25 |
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the flu shot wont do you any good against the bird flu people wake up and smell the coffee
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drizzt
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Corn
Valued Member Joined: December 13 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1219 |
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Drizzt, how bout wake up and read the post. They are talking about pnomenoia vaccine shot. not flu shot. The only shot available to the public that will stop BF is called a " 357 Magnum" . Ask for the "hollow point." by name.
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Marjo
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 102 |
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I was wondering: is my Pneumo-23 vaccin the same as your (american) one? Mine containted 0.5 ml with the following polysaccharidetypes: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6b, 7f, 8, 9n, 10a, 11a, 12f, 14, 15b, 17f, 18c, 19a and f, 20, 22f, 23f and 33f. It was manufactured in Belgium by Aventis Pasteur MSD. Marjo, The Netherlands |
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Hello I just wanted you all to know that all the walk-in clinics in my state will not give you this vaccination per your request. I have called over 200 places in my state with no luck. My children most likely will not be vaccinated. My husband and I do have appointments tomorrow which took a very long time to get authorized by our primary doctors for the ok. It was like a 2 week process. |
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wow. Maybe everybody should come out to California and get it. I have gotten 12 people in California to get it at various walkin clinics with no problem at all. In fact, one place was already sold out so one friend of mine had to visit another location. Again, he got it no problem and with no questions asked. I have had three people get it at Keizer in California, and two people get it at Keizer in Oregon. Again, no problems whatsoever. Edited by Albert |
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I found a place for my 3 kids, however I have to travel 4 hours one way (8 all together) to get there and my husband says no, due to the cost of the travel and the shots. I had my mother vac. 2 months ago after I told her. My husband has to take 1/2 of the day off due to location as to where we have to go to get our shots and losing money over it. Needless to say I am so frustrated and my family is getting agitated with me. I just am so worried about my kids; I guess I will have to do it behind my husbands back. Wish me luck and with the HUBBY!
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Dolphin
Valued Member Joined: January 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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I got mine about 2 weeks ago. Finally got my wife in to get hers today. I haven't heard of anyone having any problems getting a pneumonia vaccine around here (Louisville, KY). I've even started talking about the vaccine to friends and relatives. Most of the people that I've talked to believe it's a good idea to get the flu shot every year - So when I find out that they've gotten the flu shot I tell them about the pneumonia vaccine. I fugure it can't hurt. I get mostly positive feedback. |
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halogen601
Valued Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Dolphin, I took off from work early this past Friday and drove to my doctor to get a pneumonia shot. I was assured from two previous phone calls that I could walk in without seeing the doctor. Once I got there from Jeffersonville, I was told that I would have to see the doctor since I had a shot given to me at the Kroger store in 1999 and they had no record. Did you get your shot at the doctor or at a clinic? If at a clinic, which one did you go to? If at the doctor's office, had you had a previous shot? |
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Good job on the friends and relatives Dolphin. Good luck April! Edited by Albert |
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I wished I had an easier time getting this shot for my family. But, everything has worked out. I will make a day trip to get the shots for the kids and enjoy the area once we are thheree. (4 hours plus there 4 hours plus hours back + 3 kids in a small car = H E double hockey sticks). I also will take my mother for help. As for my husband and I we are good too. So it all worked out, sorry I was so negative before, just frustrated. April |
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Dolphin
Valued Member Joined: January 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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halogen601, I went to my PCP. I did have to see the Dr. He likes to listen to my lungs and ask how I'm doing. Or maybe he just likes to make sure he gets his $$$ out of my visit. Anyhow, if I were you, I'd just try a clinic or the health dept. I sent you an answer to your PM. Don't give up! |
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halogen601
Valued Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Thanks Dolphin. I relented and called my doctor for an afternoon appointment tomorrow. Since my regular doctor is on medical leave, hopefully the new one won't reprimand me for my smoking cessation weight gain. And I was pleasantly surprised that my insurance covers the cost of the vaccine. Folks are saying that immunity builds after two or so weeks. Judging by the increased coverage today by MSNBC, the bird flu issue certainly seems like a viable threat. With that, I think I'm going to go outside and enjoy the beautiful Kentuckiana weather today.
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Corn
Valued Member Joined: December 13 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1219 |
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I got our shots at a walk in clinic by Mohammad Yusariff. His wife ran the front desk. I hope we spoke the right language and I have to trust him as to what was in the hypodermics. Hope he's ethical. He could be laughing right now with my $$$ saying "Remember 9/11" Edited by Corn |
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I almost fell off my chair I was laughing so hard. Too funny...... |
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...........
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Lilla
Valued Member Joined: January 12 2006 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Sorry to disappoint you, but the avian flu killer pneumonia is a VIRAL pneumonia and not bacterial. That's why they're stockpiling Tamiflu and that's why people are dieing instead of taking antibiotics and walk away.
A bacterial pneumonia shot won't protect you at all against bird flu death. You can take it if you like, but don't feel safe at all. Just google "avian/bird flu" and "viral pneumonia" and you'll see yourself. Also: the Wyeth vaccine contains mercury, while the Aventis one is mercury-free. If you really want to take it, please check. Just my 2 cents, sorry for my bad english Lilla from EU |
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---Bad english spoken---
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Lilla, According to Gregory D Harrington, D.O., Center for Infectious Diseases and Pulmonary Medicine; who is a very prestigious Doctor, among various other Doctors who I have spoken to in reference to this same topic infers your statement is incorrect. Here is Dr. Harrington’s most recent slide that shows the Complications of Influenza being: • Primary viral pneumonia • Secondary bacterial pneumonia • Bacterial sinusitis • Myositis • Myocarditis / pericarditis • Guillian-Barre syndrome • Reye’s Syndrome In that order. Mind you viral can cause bacterial pneumonia. It is no question that the viral is the primary, but the secondary is bacterial (which is considered the most serious). This pneumonia shot has shown in studies to protect against the viral also. Research, “In tests in more than 37,000 children in Please read: Bacterial pneumonia vaccine may protect in viral cases WASHINGTON (AP) — A vaccine designed to prevent bacterial pneumonia also reduced the number of virus-related cases of the disease, according to research that indicates the two types of infection may interact. In tests in more than 37,000 children in Their results were reported in this week's online edition of the journal Nature Medicine. The discovery that the bacterial vaccine also blocks some viral illness indicates that "bacteria and viruses can interact together to cause disease in humans," said Keith Klugman, a professor of infectious disease at He said the finding also indicates that children with severe pneumonia should have access to antibiotics. Antibiotics attack bacteria but not viruses, so these drugs are not generally used in viral infections. If an illness results from a combination of bacteria and viruses, antibiotics might help by attacking the bacteria. Pekka Nuorti, a medical epidemiologist with national immunization program at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said some cases of pneumonia that are thought to be caused by a virus actually result from a combination of both infections. "Therefore they're preventable by the vaccine," he said. Michael Kurilla of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said that physicians long have had the impression that viral infections precede the development of potentially more severe bacterial infections. "We believe in many cases of influenza, the damage the virus does to the lung sets up the opportunity for the bacteria to get in there," Kurilla said. He said the new study suggests the opposite: the bacterial infection creating damage that allows for a viral infection to come in on top of it. "What it may be saying is, these things can go wither way," said Kurilla. The important thing, he said, is that the pneumococcal vaccine worked against the bacteria as well as nearly one-third of viral cases, a factor in considering the cost-benefit value of the vaccine. Neither Kurilla nor Nuorti was a part of the research team. In addition to pneumonia, the vaccine protects against other pneumococcal illnesses such as meningitis, blood infections and ear infections. Klugman's paper notes that childhood vaccination has been shown to reduce pneumococcal illnesses in adults. It also suggests studies to determine whether the vaccine also reduces the incidence of pneumonia and influenza among adults. The type of pneumococcal vaccine used in the tests has been in short supply in the That recommendation was modified last week, advising doctors to go ahead with the third dose while deferring the fourth. The vaccine is made by Wyeth Vaccines, which was a sponsor of Klugman's research. The research was also supported by the World Health Organization. Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed. http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-11-vaccine_x.htm More info at:
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The hubby and I had our shots today, now for the kidos in the next day. Can not wait for the 8 hours trip, but I am going to do it. Good things is that they accept my insurance, see there was a silver lining after all. |
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Lilla
Valued Member Joined: January 12 2006 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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I'm not saying it's completely useless: everybody knows that in viral infections you can get bacterial infections too, but please don't say (as I've seen some posts before) that a pneumonia shot will save your life for sure since in case of bird flu you won't get the deadly pneumonia.
This is simply NOT true. Don't encourage people to get a pneumonia shot then walk around like they're immune to death risks, because it's not, and you expose them at getting the flu then subsequently die of viral pneumonia. Just my 2 cents, sorry for bad english |
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---Bad english spoken---
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No one that I know of on this board feels that way. We just think that it may help; the only way to prevent the Avian flu is isolation according to many of us. This shot is just precautionary. We do not believe that there will be a magic bullet. Sorry that you thought we were trying to say that. PS - Did not note any bad Engish; very good matter-of-fact! PPS - Thanks for the Great TIP!: The Wyeth vaccine contains mercury, while the Aventis one is mercury-free. If you really want to take it, please check. Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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Pneumonia shot can aid flu victims
There's no shortage of vaccine to stem dangerous complications
By Lauran Neergaard and Mitch Stacy
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
WASHINGTON - The flu shot shortage makes it more imperative for elderly Americans to get a second, often overlooked, vaccine that protects against a type of pneumonia germ that's a common complication of influenza. Called pneumococcal vaccine, it's a one-time shot for anyone 65 or older. Younger people with heart and lung diseases, diabetes or weak immune systems need it too. |
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Yes it is the same according to my Drs office that I asked today, hope this helps! |
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halogen601
Valued Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Hey Albert and Dolphin, I just got back from the doctor's office. We had a heart to heart discussion and he did not want to authorize the shot citing that a healthy immune system associated with a younger person could be detrimental. When he cited that the pneumonia shot is really only effective at curbing one strain of pneumonia, I asked if his vaccine was the 23-protector poly-sach variety that I hear about on this forum. A quick look of surprise and he authorized the shot. The nurse quickly administered the 0.5 ml shot like Marjo had and I was on my way home. As a bonus, I didn't have to even pay the co-pay because I had overpaid on my last visit. Oh happy day. The persistence and wisdom of this forum has empowered me. |
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Glad to hear the news. So any mention of the weight gain?! I am sure you were worried for no reason, right?! I did not even get my weight taken on my shot visit. Edited by KillerFlu.net |
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The adage: "Knowledge is Power" is apropos.
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Lilla
Valued Member Joined: January 12 2006 Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Killerflu,
As you can see, someone here said that with the pneumonia vaccine, you'll live. This is simply NOT true! |
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---Bad english spoken---
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halogen601
Valued Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Now Lilla, we may have these pink bubble clouds that could quickly go poof but do let me and the others enjoy our moment of triumph in being proactive and prepared in a world that seems lives day to day and has forgotten how to prepare.
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halogen, good job lol. You made them even beg to give it to you by the time you were done with them There is not a lot of research on it because there has never been a need for it since 1918 - With regard to using is to prevent the secondary complications from influenza. Every doctor that I have talked to says it makes sense. Every one of them? There are just no studies on it because there has never been a need until a "Superflu" emerged. But who would have thought that would have ever happened? How do you prepare for a superbug situation? Sure there is a chance that you will still die even though you get the vaccination, but it won't be from the secondary bacterial pneumonia. Edited by Albert |
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halogen601
Valued Member Joined: January 07 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Thanks Albert. The doctor sternly warned to call him quickly if redness and pain emanated from the site where the pneumonia vaccine was administered, and then he left. The nurse returned with the shot and I asked her about potential redness and pain. She quickly retorted that she just ignored any redness and went on with life considering all the years (40) that she has had innoculations. But Albert, Lilla is correct, in that one never knows about the unknown. Ironically, I see that Gerald Ford has been hospitalized with pneumonia. It was during his tenure that he was proactive in staving off the swine flu. It didn't happen and repercussions were felt with the swine flu vaccine. Some even attribute this to him not being re-elected. Nonetheless, my 98 year old grandmother still recalls the misery of 1918 when she was young. We're seeing bizarre things with nature in the world and it still doesn't hurt to be prepared. The "order today, arrive tomorrow" regimen that we're accustom to may be interrupted.
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Corn
Valued Member Joined: December 13 2005 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1219 |
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another reason pneumonia is allowed to develope in a sick person is because they imobilize (lay flat alot) When the elderly break hips, thier biggest threat to recovery is pnumonia, The imobility from and injury invites pnomunia. When you move around or walk your lungs are expiring. aspariation pushes up fluids. If you cough you should push something up. don't cough and try to supress it. cough it up. Try to stay mobilized if you are ill. Die fighting! Edited by Corn |
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LizG
V.I.P. Member Joined: December 15 2005 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 33 |
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Hi I don't know about the US but in Canada I got my daughter who is 12 vax today with a little white lie. They will vax for free if they have Asthma but nobody called the Dr office to find out, they just went on my word. I don't know if this will help anyone. I think it is necessary for any secondary infections. So to me the little white lie was worth it if it may save her life.
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BTW, I volunteered to the clinic doctor that the only reason I was getting the shot was inorder to appease someone else's worry about the Bird Flu. Also, at neither office was anything mentioned about a high risk group. Several of my friends got their Pnuemonia Vaccine at the same medical clinic. None of us have children, but had we, I don't believe we would have a problem with them getting the shot. The medical clinic is independantly owned by a group of doctors. Perhaps they are open to giving the vaccine because they are in business for themselves. Do you know of any such medical clinics in your area? Just a thought. Edited by Appalled |
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A white lie to protect your child? Your white lie has been excused! LOL. Furthermore, GOOD JOB! April holds the record for driving the longest distance to get it done. April is truly amazing. I think you, halogen and marjo have had the more difficult negotiations. |
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Trigger
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 13 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 77 |
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I got my pneumonia and flu shot today. Better late than never.
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Trigger
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WAIT !!! STOP THE PRESSES !! WE HAVE A LAST MINUTE ADDITION ! IT'S ABOUT TIME TRIGGER! Better late than never is right! I'm almost starting to feel like Richard Simmons lol. By the way, whatever happend to Deej. Did she get it done yet? We need to stay on her.
Edited by Albert |
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