Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
To flee or not to flee- that is the ? |
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 9:44am |
If you are reading this website, you are a leader in your community, family or tribe-whether you think so or not . You will have a significant impact on others if for no other reason than you researched Pandemic Flu. You also are self reliant and self motivated. Otherwise you would just be watching tv. This is a great website, I have learned a great deal.
Should you flee your home or shelter in place?
I will discuss the variables I considered, and explain why we will shelter in place in a suburb of a metropolitan area.
I invite your comments, I could always change my mind should circumstances dictate.
I. Fleeing to a rural refuge
This is recommended by Dr. Grattan Woodson, whose text I highly respect. It is in the "Avian Information" portion of this website in PDF filed by mondegreen.
We have relocated during several hurricanes.The last several we started to shelter in place for the following reasons:
A. Travel hazards
Do not assume (even subconsciously) that travel will be as usual. I saw Interstate 10 backed up as far as the eye could see. In Houston evacuees ran out of gas on the interstate.
Your family is most vulnerable to armed attack while driving. Someone stranded due to car breakdown may believe it is perfectly reasonable to kill you and take your SUV. Plan for this, consider night evac.
Are you prepared to camp out is roads are blocked?
Will there be quarrantines or road blocks (Legal or vigalante)?
If you do travel, the following helped me:
Evaluate travel choke points. Merging Interstate, bridges, etc.
If you are more than one tankful of gas from your destination, pre-plan. Store gas with someone you trust enroute (Giving them half is the normal payment). If you carry gas, refill as soon as possible then discard the plastic 5 gallon jug which is extremely flammable when empty.
Beware someone may have taken your cabin and will defend it with deadly force.
If taking more than one car, be sure to have CB radio, FM radio or some other non cell phone communication if separated. Also have meeting points if all else fails.
Secondary roads are preferable in mass evacuations for speed, but more likely to ambush or security problems. Realize many people can not read maps, and always travel the same route. Some communities may set up their own quarrantines by armed roadblocks along rural roads. This happened in 1918.
B. Known destination
Do not leave home unless you have a known preplanned destination. This is not the time to shop for a site, unless you are very capable at survival and travelling alone.
C. Supply limitations
You will be limited to what you can load in your car, truck or trailer
and what has been prepositioned at your destination. Everything else is left, so you should give some of it away to neighbors who will stay.
If you stay home you can store more, and not be splitting your assets between two locations. Remember, you must always have enough supplies at home in case your family contracts Pandemic Flu prohibiting you from travelling despite all your great plans for the country cabin.
D. The sick do not tolerate travel- what if your family gets sick enroute?
Sanitation en route will be thrid world standards at rest areas etc.
E. Pandemic Flu will not be a single discrete event. Any Pandemic will continue over a long time. Unless you permanently relocate, how long will you stay?
F. Social support-You know people in your community, your kids have friends, you are familiar with the area. You know the danger zones.
G. Psychological factors-Didn't Dorothy say "There's no place like home". Do not underestimate this psychological factor if you get the Pandemic Flu.
H. Economics- How long can you abandon your business or job?Will you flee, come back, then get the pandemic flu?
I. Fuel- you save all the fuel in your vehicles. This can be siphoned for your generators, although I like the solar system I saw on this website and want to get one.
J. Criminals can travel anywhere you can-
I attended a citizens Police class. We went for several classes to the various operations. One participant asked the officer which zone was the most dangerous. I never forgot the officer's reply- "You can get killed in any zone. Anywhere you can drive to, so can the criminals"
Many criminals fled New Orleans and terrorized rural areas of Louisiana, until the residents responded in force.
I read the quote yesterday on this site from a Government official in Iowa "A pandemic, by definition, means you are on your own." We will shelter in place, unless the Pandemic is specifically limted to our geographic area.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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RicheeRich
Valued Member Joined: February 08 2006 Status: Offline Points: 203 |
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I am the leader of our tribe....
Neighboring tribal leaders should be careful and diplomatic in their dealings with us, as any friction could lead to conflict.
We are not going anywhere.
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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Good . Strong tribes make for a strong country.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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Valgard
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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You bring out some excellent point JaxMax...I have considered leaving
this town of around 15,000 souls, but really do not have any
place to go which I could call "Mine". And I do not plan on taking
anyone elses place. So I will stay put and take mychances.
I have an extended family of almost 20 folks, (3 generations), and do indeed consider myself and this family as tribal, with all that being said, I am also working with some neighbors, and helping some friends (3 families) prepare in a good spot about 90 miles SE of here. If the worst happens, yes there will be a new generation of leaders taking the helm on the local level, on a national level we may have to think about starting over, pre-1861 USA constitutional republic...we must protect the soveriegn rights of the freemen. These are indeed interesting times. |
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Do Right and Fear Not
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I'm going nowhere. Even if I had anywhere to go I wouldn't see much point. You are as safe from the BF in the middle of a big city as in the country, provided you stay indoors. It's outdoors that the cities are more dangerous because of the crowds. Also I believe like Jaxmax that there is a psychological advantage to being in familiar surroundings. Plus of course you know some of your neighbours and could maybe help each other if criminals start trouble. Plus also you know the dangers in your own area - where the dodgy types live, what will be their targets and a little bit about how they operate. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't as the saying goes. Love Beth x
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JaxMax
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Valgard-
Thanks for the comments. Sounds like your group is ready. We have an informal group, and I noticed proplr in our neighborhood banded together for security during the third hurricane.
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JaxMax
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Beth-
I agree you can get the Pandemic flu here or there. Or even if you evacuate eventually you would have to come back.
Please keep us up to date on the UK.I read everything published from Waybridge.
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Valgard
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 58 |
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Thanks JaxMax, I doubt we are ready for the worst case scenario, but
every day we have left we are working towards our common goals. I
still need to invest some money in expanding my solar plant, water
storage, propane tanks, and more food and meds. But every week
that we have left, we will be one step closer.
Best of luck to you all! |
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Do Right and Fear Not
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Siameselade
Adviser Group Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 414 |
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keep it up, all of you; sounds like your going about prepping really good and prepared to face what could be coming.
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Siam
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stardust
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 224 |
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I would love to get the hell out of the city. Not practical for me though at this time. However, it is a goal of mine to eventually move to a smaller community and be able to grow my own food. Tracking this has really opened my eyes to alot of things.
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"Prepping is Power"!
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fritz
Adviser Group Joined: February 04 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 332 |
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Excellent post JAXMAX! Really enjoyed it. I would love to be in a cabin in the woods if I had one but that just isn't so for us. I will very be happy to shelter in place (even though I live in a densely pop. area) and hope we will all be well and not have to draw our weapons against evil doers.
We will buy lumber tomarrow to cut to board up just in case it does get out of hand in our neighborhood. I think if the pooh really hits the fan I just might be smack dab in the middle of bedlam but we are prepared to defend the fort.
Even though it probably wont make any difference at all we are about 3 blocks or so from the police dept. but most who would be coming to do harm probably don't know that or care and the PD will be barely functioning at that time anyway. I hope to have enough people inside with us to stand up to those who may come.
Sadly,I feel my neighbors are probably easy targets b/c I think they are all in the dark as to what may very well come to pass and the time is drawing nearer and nearer. We only moved here last May so I don't know them really well but they all say "Hi" and seem like very nice people. I do worry about it alot and think it will get very bad for them here.
Do you believe the guy across the street works for Roche and when I try and talk to him about BF he just shakes his head but does not work on preparing? I just don't get people sometimes. He says he doesn't even have Tamiflu for he and his wife, (prb. not true) but they are older and Swedish and have a very kay serah serah (sp?) attitude about life.
You can only do what you can but we are trying to think of everything and prepare as much as possible. Thanks again for all the good advise.
fritz :>}
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"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller
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Pebbles
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 08 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 176 |
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My husband and I are rural and we are staying put! My 2 adult children will be coming here. My son is a cop and just decided he would be coming here. He never took it seriously and didn't want to leave his job. I don't think he really "got it" until a few days ago. It took months of me spewing out information before he finally realized that this is serious. We all own lots of weapons and I would like to see anyone try to mess with our tribe. I would be more afraid to try and bug out. However, if something came up and we had to go, we'll just have to take our chances. I just thank God that I was born and raised here and know a few out of the way places we can get to. I also thank God for this website and for everyone's valuable knowledge. You guys are great! |
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Blackbird singing in the dead of the night. Take these broken wings and learn to fly. All my life. You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
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Siameselade
Adviser Group Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 414 |
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Good for you. I wish mine would come home too.
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Siam
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Falcon
Valued Member Joined: February 20 2006 Status: Offline Points: 684 |
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I tried talking to my boss about this, but hes stuck on all this medicine and how he thinks we're, I'm hoping he'll take this more seriously. I think this situation is out of control
I don't know if I'll be staying here or not
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I look at the stars and wonder what it would be like to touch them.
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Siameselade
Adviser Group Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 414 |
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My hubby won't leave, period. so we shall make our stand here.
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Siam
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Daydreamer
Valued Member Joined: February 24 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 439 |
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Our little tribe is staying right where we are. We live in a rural area. My five closest neighbors are of the same mindset that we are. There is a total of 17 people including kids. We have plenty of fire power if needed and I pity the fools that come up this mountain without an invitation.
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Don't put off tomorrow what you can PREP today
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HOPEFLOATS
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 22 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 94 |
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Right now our plan is stay here. If we lose electric we have the option to move to my sisters as they have a wood stove and are very close to here but we would rather not move if we can avoid it. I just do not like the idea of leaving our home. Now if it starts and my husband is required to work then I will be going to my sisters. They do not and I do not want to be here alone with 4 kids.
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Jax Max
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Fritz-
Thanks for the response. I grew up in a very rural area. All my close relatives still live there. If in fact we ever have total societal meltdown where no one is working, no one is going to work, and accordingly I can not work, I will reconsider. But right now we have to make a stand here. And we are going to prevail.
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JaxMax
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Pebbles-
Thanks for the response. It is good your son will be there with you. Sounds like you are well prepared. My oldest son starts college this fall far away, and I am making arrangements in his town in case I can not get him.
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Jax Max
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Daydreamer-
Sounds good.Like the song says "Country man can survive".
I was glad we had a tribe during looting/burglary problems in the third hurricane to take a turn on the night watch. We manned a barricade blocking one of the entrances to the neighborhood ( which was completely illegal) and this saved us a lot of trouble.
I was also surprised how well some of my neighbors adapted beyond expectations. Two who were quiet and nervous really stepped up to the plate.We have military veterans and we will be a force to be reokoned with.Its just that my first preference would be concealment, then defense. Here there is no concealment.
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Deanna
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Iwas looking through the web for a property to buy onthe lake ,then noticed the picture had ducks on the water darn double darn i quess I will stay
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Daydreamer
Valued Member Joined: February 24 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 439 |
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Jax Max~ we live smack dab in the middle of probably 500 wooded acres. Not all of it is ours mind you but there is just one road into our property. We have a gate in place already and have plans to pull an old car across the road and will have it manned 24-7 if need be. This is if a quarantine is in affect. Many of us use the same weapons and we probably have 5,000 rounds easy for the most common weapon. We do have at least one weak link when it comes to manning the gate. We have a man here that wouldn't shoot to save his own life so I will be one of the women who man the gate. This is life and death that we're talking about. And no, we aren't militia, we're survivors.
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Don't put off tomorrow what you can PREP today
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Siameselade
Adviser Group Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 414 |
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Good luck and take care, shoot straight.
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Siam
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fritz
Adviser Group Joined: February 04 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 332 |
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Thanx JaxMax, actually I forgot to mention that I have to pick up one item before we bug-in. That's my 20 yr old son who's in college just outside of Boston. We are in NJ so that's no quick trip but I'm monitoring as closely as I can to get the early warning sign BEFORE word gets out. I have no other plan b/c I don't have anyone to call up there to take him in. We happen to be going up (on a planned trip) next weekend and although I'd really love to bring him back with us I can't spring into action too early. A very tough call. Too soon not good, too late very bad. Just sick over it really :>{ . |
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"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller
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Wookie
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We're planning to stay put unless our safety is in danger. It took us a long time to gather all that food. How on earth could we ever move it all. Where would we sleep?
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I would like to add: if you are deciding to pack up and just move to a small town once SHTF...they might not open there road and or highway to you..I have moved from a big city to a smaller town 500 miles distance and I still feel like an outsider at times...and if you really think about it the towns people are really not going to want strangers coming in when everything is at its worst...if you are going to move to a smaller town I would suggest you do it before TSHTF...
and the woods..humm I am surronded by them and would not even blink twice about going out there to live on the land,but with bird flu it is a totally different thought...would I really want to venture outside and risk not only getting this H2H,but the thought of it happening in bird droppings
The bird flu has opened a hole new can of worms on gardening and being self sufficent should the main stream of food be shut down...
Preps in the last six months have been re-vamped to have to take into consideration the possibility of B2H transfers...
I had also intended on using those woods to go gather faggots of wood to burn and do the cooking...i have about a half a cord of wood and 2 outdoor firepits...I will have to now change all thoughts on those and how to cook food indoors...
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KOMET163
Admin Group Joined: January 15 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 278 |
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We intend on staying where we are at . However we do have a bug out plan if things don't work out . We can go to my parents house about 15 miles away. We willl take a van and a car with us to move our stuff. I think we can survive this if we sztick together. we have any number of ways to survive this problem so we will do well. I am going to get a porta potty and at least 50 more rolls of TP
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andrew p
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I live in the country with good neighbors nearby (incl. guardsmen and ex-cops), lots of woods, and a reliable shallow well, so we'll be staying here.
What I am trying to figure out is who else to bring in if it looks like things will get really bad. Perhaps more people means more risk of exposure, but it also means more power to defend the fort. Not to mention more companionship if we are holed up for months. I feel like I want to choose the right friends, show them a list and say "If you bring these preps you can camp out here." Anybody else in a situation like this? |
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It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark.
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Pebbles
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JaxMax & Fritz, I will pray for you and everyone else who has kids in college. Man oh man, making the decision as to when to take them out of school, is going to be a really tough call!
AndrewD, you're in a tough situation too. I personally wouldn't want anyone else, other than family and life long friends, coming to stay with me.
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Blackbird singing in the dead of the night. Take these broken wings and learn to fly. All my life. You were only waiting for this moment to arise.
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joseph
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I plan to stay put, I have all my prep here and are too much to move. I have safety mesures where I am and if my daughter and grand daughter need help they know where I am. Even though my daughter is not preping I have prepared for here if they should show up. That's my job to look out for her when I can. What ever will come my way I need to be ready. I just wish I had more money.
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I'm afraid you're absolutely wrong. You should not stay in a city for *ANY* reason longer than you have to in a SHTF scenario. Considering you live in the UK, and having been there more times than I'd have liked (No offense, don't like the weather or the politics) there's not a lot of areas you could feasably go to that are actually rural in every sense of the word. You'd still be better off getting out of any urban area with a population at or near 10,000.
Now considering that the good people in the UK are, for lack of a better word, totally defenseless, the criminals will have a field day with you and yours were you to stay in the city. Don't expect the police or anyone to come to your aid either, they'll be too busy keeping themselves safe (with their weapons). If criminals start trouble, and lets face facts the criminals over there have guns and you don't, what exactly are all of you going to do to stop them from doing whatever they want? Every single dwelling in any modestly urban area will be completely sacked by armed bad guys, since you've no way of defending yourself you should seriously leave. I'd hate to have something terrible happen to you because you stayed where you shouldn't have.
Now I'm not even going into the stupid political systems you've got over there that are calling a Gerber Gator folding knife (one exactly like the one I gave to my ten year old nephew) an "Assault Knife made only to maim and kill" which I should. The bottom line is that you should have at least some way of defending yourself, because at the very least it's a deterrent to criminals if they know there's a chance they might be injured in the course of victimizing you. Criminals are cowards. They're only going to pick on the weakest, most defenseless people. Don't be that weak defenseless person.
The devil that I know and the one I don't both fear the wrath of my team's .308's!
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Siameselade
Adviser Group Joined: March 22 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 414 |
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we are going to make our stand here in our home in the city. My hubby won't leave.
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Siam
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Deej
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we plan on staying, we are very rural. my only concern is we are on a main state road. have no real neighbors to deal with but lots of traffic on a daily basis. i have been thinking of a place on our hill - their is an old stone quarry , with a large cave. it is totally hidden, very secluded. i think maybe a dozen or so people know about it. that will be our bug out place. have been stockpiling some lumber and we have enough to build a small place. just need to think about how to set it up...
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dee
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fritz
Adviser Group Joined: February 04 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 332 |
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Thank you pebbles, I truly appreciate being considered in your prayers. We sure could use all the help we can get! :>} fritz |
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"I am only one; but still I am one, I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." -- Hellen Keller
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Breeze26
Valued Member Joined: March 21 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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I plan on staying at my home...I live in a city with a large population but I do have a large yard. There's five people in my family, so if I did need to travel many of our supplies would get left behind. We have food, water, guns and bullets (among other things). My neighbor is also stocking up and I have been warning my extended family. They all think I'm insane!
If TSHTF I'll be quite happy acting like I'm living in the 18th century.....of course that's as long as none of us get's sick.....
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Human beings can always be relied upon to exert, with vigor, their God-given right to be stupid. Dean Koontz
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JaxMax
Adviser Group Joined: March 01 2006 Status: Offline Points: 801 |
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I read several books on past Epidemics this weekend. I also reread "The Great Infleunza" by John Barry.Crosby's book on the 1918 epidemic has been reprinted.
I had overlooked or forgotten how long these epidemics can last. Month after month, wave after wave.
We are facing an event with no discrete starting point, an indefinite duration, and no fixed endpoint.
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He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a companion of fools suffers harm.Proverbs 13:20, The Bible
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pioneer
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quote from turboguy
I'm afraid you're absolutely wrong. You should not stay in a city for *ANY* reason longer than you have to in a SHTF scenario.
turboguy,
i agree with you 100%
when law and order brakes down, and people are starving
(and i dont mean just very hungry)
they will do what ever it takes to survive.
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all the animals in the wood teach their children to survive from nature with one exception,
man |
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Exactamundo. Remember there's three problems for people in catching the bird flu. # of infected people around you, amount of duration, and inability to isolate yourself from the various people that are infected. All three of these are to be had in a city environment.
When you factor in the indisputable fact that loads of people are just looking for an excuse to act like the animals they are (Re: Katrina) your probability of survival in an urban area is reduced considerably. Truth be told I'd rather have to leave my home in the city and leave all my preparations behind, except my trusty M14 and a few thousand rounds of ammo, if I were going to find myself in a rural area instead of the urban jungle. Granted I could easily shoot my way to solitude, it'd be much easier to just leave.
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pioneer
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Originally posted by turboguy
Truth be told I'd rather have to leave my home in the city and leave all my preparations behind,
again i agree with your post.
even nice people when faced with starvation will do almost anything to survive and or feed their children,
but theres no need to leave your preps behind.
pick yourself out a good bug out place,
cachs supplies there and bug out at the first sign of trouble.
or join a group.
imo,
most city dwellers will stay close to the cities.
if things are not to bad you have just had an extended camping holiday,
if they are, then while the city folk fight over the ever dwindling supplies of food you and yours are safely out of the way when the shtf.
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all the animals in the wood teach their children to survive from nature with one exception,
man |
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Sadly all, many many Americans have no where to go.. Trying to
"escape" the city presents its own risks. I have been trying to
help my friends and family with idea of how to make a difficult
situation (ie staying in an urban area) as good as possible.
Also, I do think there are some city neighborhoods with a strong sense of community and they function more like little villages, that type of situation may help mitigate other risks. I think we have to accept that large numbers of citizens are going to stay put. Here is my challenge for you, how do they do it successfully? (And no "get a gun with lots of ammo" thats too easy of an answer and doesn't work for many in our society) |
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PS JaxMax --your post on the 25th was spot on.
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pioneer
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Originally posted by bluesky and no "get a gun with lots of ammo" thats too easy of an answer and doesn't work for many in our society)
bluesky,
same here in the uk most dont even have that option. Here is my challenge for you, how do they do it successfully
imo,
some city neighborhoods with a strong sense of community would work if everyone pulls together.
depending of course on how long it lasts and preps made.
hold a meeting and draw up plans.
e.g. do we (they) cordon off the area, do you have 24 hour guard, ration food stocks so everyone gets a fair share, the strong look after the weak by having your own law enforcement in the regulars are out of action.
if as a group you are stronger than any who try to take from you, they will go after easer pickings.
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all the animals in the wood teach their children to survive from nature with one exception,
man |
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Jax Max
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Blue sky- Thanks. I am becoming more confident of sheltering in place because of the length of time over which the Pandemic may play out.
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Breeze26
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Trying to bring my community togethor would be reckless at best. I don't know how many of you are in the US but I live in that really nasty city in MI that has like the 4th highest muder rate in the nation. My immediate community is great, this road maybe the next but I can just see it now, like Stephen Kings, The Cell, "people" rummaging around, eating out of your garden, breaking into houses, shooting each other....
Anyhow, I think the best plan is to just lay low. Don't leave, don't go out, cook inside, only go out at night where you have cover of darkness. Possibly board up windows and doors if needed. Set sentry duty. The less you travel the less exposure you will get.
One good thing about living in the city is we have less birds!
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Human beings can always be relied upon to exert, with vigor, their God-given right to be stupid. Dean Koontz
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Breeze26. Scary. Don't know what to offer. I think you got a realistic appraoch to a situation with no really good answers.
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