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Nurse H5N1 positive? |
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Fluinformer
Experienced Member Joined: May 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Posted: June 02 2006 at 4:17am |
Nurse with bird flu-like symptoms hospitalized in Bandung, W Java
http://news.antara.co.id/en/seenws/?id=13714 |
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I just read this, it she is positive, then we will be in trouble. The spread to a health care worker is something that is important.
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pheasant
Admin Group Joined: May 20 2006 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 9851 |
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yup i just read it to.....3 day for confermation?..i thought they had quick tests.....any how this is what we expect for information,...quick and accurate.....hopfully she just has a cold.......and this is not a harbinger of things to come
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The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Nurse with bird flu-like symptoms hospitalized in Bandung, W Java
Bandung, W Java (ANTARA News) - A 25-year old nurse identified by her initials as `Ci` is currently being treated at the Hasan Sadikin Hospital here for bird flu-like symptoms.
Ci was admitted to the hos[oital which has been treating a number of bird flu patients on Thursday evening (June 1). "When she arrived at this hospital last night, her body temperature was very high, namely 39.6 Celsius degrees but now it has decreased to 37 Celsius degrees," Hadi Jusuf, head of the bird flu medical treatment unit of the hospital, said here on Friday. The hospital was planning to send the patient`s blood sample to the laboratory of the Health Development and Research Body in Jakarta on Friday. The result of the laboratory test is expected to come within the next three days, he said. "We could not confirm whether she is positive of having been infected by avian influenza virus or not, although she had earlier have contacts with siblings, 18-year old Ad and 10-year old Ai, who died of bird flu virus recently," he said. The ailing nurse has never had contact with poultry, but she had treated the sibling when being treated at Ujungberung Hospital, where Ci works as a nurse. If she is confirmed of being infected by bird flu virus, it would be the first case of human-to-human transmission of the virus, he said. Meanwhile, the UN World Health Organization (WHO) recently announced that international health investigators were finding no evidence that efficient transmission of the highly pathogenic avian influenza virus has emerged from a family cluster of cases in Indonesia`s North Sumatra. The H5N1 virus has caused 127 deaths in 224 cases worldwide since it was detected in humans in late 2003. In all but a handful of cases, humans have become infected through direct contact with ailing birds, their feces or blood. Indonesia has detected 48 cases of H5N1, 31 of those appearing since January, and ending in 36 fatalities. (*) Jun 02 17:38 |
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I just tried and it will not let me.
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Got it
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Oh dear. Beth
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Sounds like regular flu....it says her temp went back down pretty fast and doesn't say anything about SOB which seems to be a common symptom. They tested the virus from the large family cluster and said there was no mutation. This is the importance of why the level hasn't been raised to 4 which seems to be a big contraversy on the forum lately. There have been limited H2H transmission for awhile although WHO hasn't admitted it. Now they are faced with this dilemma of having a cluster up front in the news and having to say there is no change. They know this is to admit it's been like this all along. If they change the level it is a signal that something has changed in the activity of the virus and really it hasn't. We probably should have been at stage 4 years ago but to raise it now now would have no value except to cause panic.
Anyway, this case sounds like typical flu. They tested the virus in the large cluster and found no change; I wonder if they also tested the virus from these two siblings to see if it mutated.
If the nurse caught the virus then the who will surely raise the level...I suspect they will also find that there has been a change in the virus. The fact that her temp came down fast would be good news....It could mean that the virus mutated to a form that's easily transmittable but in doing so lost its lethality.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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lolo88
Valued Member Joined: March 16 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 31 |
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...hope, hope, hope...
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whispering wind
advanced Member Joined: March 26 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 27 |
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Can somebody please tell me how you get a temp. over 103f down to normal in less than 24hrs.?????????
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You must learn the past, in order to understand the future.
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Fluinformer
Experienced Member Joined: May 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 15 |
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Maybe the Tamiflu helped.
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One ice cube in the mouth as your taking the temp.
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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"When she arrived at this hospital last night, her body temperature was very high, namely 39.6 Celsius degrees but now it has decreased to 37 Celsius degrees,"
not sure if 37 is normal but I think it's pretty close. Tylenol will bring my temp down that quick as I'm sure Tamiflu would\...esp...if it is a typical type of flu.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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They will not raise the flag if she has H5N1 because they will say that it is a family transmission. She will be seen as a family member before she is seen as a health care worker.
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dundeels01
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 14 2006 Status: Offline Points: 8 |
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Hopefully, this is something totally unrelated to BF. I'm certainly not an expert on genetics, but if she does in fact a case of regular flu and happens to have been exposed to BF, isn't that extrordinarly bad? I had been under the impression that someone getting exposed to both at the same time could allow H5N1 to combine with a more transmissable form of influenza, thereby allowing it to become H2H2H. Any thoughts on this, am I way off base here or what???
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PacificNorthwes
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 30 2006 Status: Offline Points: 2 |
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Seems to me like there are four possibilities for the nurse's condition
1) She has caught bird flu and is going to suffer much more over the coming days. This will be the worst case scenario as it means that the Bird flud is jumping between nonfamily members and is holding its potency.
2) She has caught Bird flu but is has lost some of its potency. This could mean several things including that her genetic makeup was not as susceptible to bird flu (This would possilby fit the theory that family genetics are playing a part in who and how sick a person gets). It could mean that the flu itself has lost some potency thru mutation which is also allowing it to spread to others and it could be that she is just an unusual case and the bird flu did not hit her hard.
3) She could have a nonbird flu and it has no relation to bird flu.
4) She could have a nonbirdflu and it mixes will her exposure to bird flu causing the dreaded final mutations.
I really wonder though if we will be told the truth about her. We did get the breaking local news story..but will we get the correct followup information. Like the secrecy behind the sharing of the genetic studies of the bird flu and Niman's comments about how we need to look at what is not being said by WHO, not what is being said.
It will be interesting to see how this plays out...it is really unfortunate that we do not have a neutral party that could be present in Indonesia and report the truths on these cases.....any volunteers?
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pugmom
Valued Member Joined: March 28 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 415 |
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Listen--she was exposed to the 2 dead siblings. Remember the neighbor of the 2 dead siblings is ALSO ill with symptoms of bird flu.
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jpc
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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First they will test her for birdflu...if the test is positive they will check for mutations...if no mutations then it will be apparent that the nurse has whatever genetic requirement is needed to catch the flu...If there have been mutations then the plan is to flood the area with Tamiflu...this is what we watch for...if the tamiflu does not stop the virus and a Pandemic is apparent then the Govt. is to inform the people...If this is the case we can expect about 3 weeks time before we hear anything. For now what we should look for is a report that tests were inconclusive and more testing is being done and for the shipment of Tami9flu to Indonesia from Roche. Every thing else is just speculation at this point.
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Angie, When I first read it I thought they were saying she was related to the two siblings. Then I read it again slower, she's not a relative of the sibling, she treated The siblings. dundeels- it is a bad scenario, the bf could reassort with regular flu, making a more powerful strain. From what I understand of this virus though, it would not be the worst thing for it to do. The virus mutating on it's own and going straight from birds to humans and then H2H would be the worst scenario. A reassorment would most likely cause a watered down strain, although most likely still deadly, just not as deadly. |
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Thanks rodin 33,
I read it again and see what you are saying. The other scenario was less frightening, now I am really afraid if she is found to be positive. I'm actually starting to feel dizzy. This is too much. I think I've been in denial. It is all starting to sink in.
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pheasant
Admin Group Joined: May 20 2006 Location: Florida Status: Offline Points: 9851 |
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in my opinion......this is bad,there cant be a positive spin put on this.....i think her news got thru the who net...........the test results will be held for a while, or the story will be retracted somehow...just a feeling
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The only thing we have to fear, is fear itself......FDR
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Please the panic on here is driving me crazy....this isn't the first time a nurse with flu symptoms has been tested....Her fever went down the first night....a very good sign....They would be crazy not to test her for bird flu but signs and symptoms remain....a high fever and shortness of breath...there is no shortness of breath reported....only high fever...typical of many ailments....Yes this could be it but no more than many...many...other times in the past that it could have been it and it wasn't....It doesn't sound like it is....so far this flu has only transmitted between family members...no shortness of breath...fever came down fast with treatment....why is everyone making this out to be more than it is?
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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roxy
Valued Member Joined: February 27 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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the temp can come down with tylenol every 4 hours and plenty of hydration, , the problem is ,when the infection takes hold, and the medication is'nt working, the temperature will begin to rise again,despite tylenol roxy
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Question: Just to keep EVERYTHING into perspective, because I like that Linda is keeping this at a level-headed-think-about-it-don't-jump-to-conclusions scenario ..... BUT, just 'cause the temp goes down with meds, doesn't mean that the virus is NOT BF, correct? It just means that the temp went down, right? Like, when my kids get a cold and get a fever -- I give them tylenol BUT they still have the cold. I completely understand the second part of that regarding onset of symptoms not being complete 'cause no mention of the shortness of breath ( and hopefully that is not just an 'oversight' -- cause we all know how much 'oversight' there has been w/ reporting of facts ) I'm just trying to put this into a non-panicked perspective. Thanks -k
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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Thank-You Readymom....I knew when I saw you had posted there would be a voice of reason....glad you point out that regualr flu that is oh so common has a high temp at onset that is easily brought down...
ROXY, PLease show me where the fever in biord flu is typically brought under control in the first night...I'm not disputing what you're saying I just can't recall where this has been a norm....would love to see the stats on it. Also I can't remember anything about tylenol being used as effective initial treatment....article please
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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Yea .. but Linda ... isn't it brought down because you took the MED ... NOT just down because it is NOT the virus? I'm still keepin' it all in perspective, just clearing away all the fine lines -k
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roxy
Valued Member Joined: February 27 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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linda, i 'm not talking bird flu in particular, no articale, not stats, just 20 years as a nusre in long term care, . just what do you think they use to bring fevers down? standard practice, bring the fever down , make the patient comfortable. the disscussion posted here was , how can the temperature come down so fast, .it used to be, give the patient, tylenol every 4 hours around the clock for 24 hours, or 48 hours,and some doctors still prescribe this, but now they feel this masks the problem , the fever is the way the body fights the infection. i'm not here to give medical advice , we have doctors on board to do that. i'm just trying to point out that the fever,can be brought down.these patients have reported to get better then relapse and then die.i had the flu and i'm sure many here have. there are times when you feel better and then relapse, and gradually you get better. roxy
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Glow
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I do think that a HCW who cared for two BF patients is cause for concern if she develops a fever. Of course we should not panic...but we on this forum have read alot about this virus and we all know to "look out for HCW coming down with the BF as this may mean a mutation has taken place". I wouldn't call how they are reacting as "panic"...I see this as hypervigilance. I know my nerves are a bit rattled....just human nature I think. Of course we should reframe from drawing conclusions too soon. |
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Linda
V.I.P. Member Joined: April 02 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 265 |
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pLEASE rOXY....YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE A NURSE TO KNOW THAT nsaids REDEUCE A FEVER...oops didn't mean to have caps on...Anyway, I think you are missing the point of the question....There have been incodence of Bird flu where the patient has gotten ill again after recovery....but I can't remember a time when initial recovery happened so fast. I was asking if you had an article on this...to say temp. from regular flu can be brought down by Tylenol overnight is comparing apples to oranges I am also aware that a temp of 101 is good. ...I am saying because her temp was controlled so quickly I doupt if it was bird flu causing it. (They are both flu but two very different types, they efect different parts of the lung among other things....apples and oranges}. This, compounded with the fact that there were no other BF symptomsleads me to believe it is regular flu.
Yea .. but Linda ... isn't it brought down because you took the MED ... NOT just down because it is NOT the virus? I'm still keepin' it all in perspective, just clearing away all the fine lines
This is the question of the day....It is General knowledge that temp is put under control with tylenol....question is temp caused by BIRD FLU able to be brought under control within hours.....,All your nursing knowledge in the world doesn't answer that unless you have been working with BF patients or have an artivcle that says so.....Please show us your article
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Insanity is making the same mistakes and expecting different results....therefore...Those who don't learn from history are bound to go insane.
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There have been many documented cases from 1918, where the fever inially came done, then 3 days later increased and the patient died. The research i read said they were unable to determine if the worsening of the patient was due to the flu or a secondary infection. If she does tets positive for H5N1, the WHO will just say nothing has changed, that the nurse while caring for the patients had very close personal contact. They have already said that is the requirement for H2H transmission.
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multiple heath care workers and the ambulance drivers would be cause for concern |
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P'ColaPrepper
advanced Member Joined: April 21 2006 Status: Offline Points: 21 |
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I mostly just read this forum and have only posted once or twice, but if I may say, we probabaly haven't had anyone in the headlines who may have just contracted it. Seems that most of the local people stricken with bf come to the hospital only right before they die. Because we're dealing with a HCW she may be one of very few who receives treatment right from onset of symptoms. Just my humble lurkers opinion. Love this forum by the way, read it almost every spare minute of my day.
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roxy
Valued Member Joined: February 27 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 534 |
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and you wonder why we have so many members and so few posters , roxy |
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Glow
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P'Cola....great post...you should post more often. I, like you think that "if" this is BF in this HCW it "may" be that early treatment with tamiflu is the reason for her betterment....of course this is "speculation" on my part......and as a layperson with no medical background, all I can do is "speculate"...but this is a forum where we debate, speculate, give hunches, intuitions, and even have heated discussions.....but isn't that what this forum is for?......afterall, we are not previ to "inside" information of any kind and most of us aren't scientists so even if we had such information we probably couldn't draw scientific conclusions from it. All alot of us have are our "gut feelings" , "hunches", "intuitions"(call it what you may). As for the alleged "panic going on, on this thread"...I just don't see it....I just think nerves are rattled and we are reacting with some anxiety . I don't think this is such a bad thing because it keeps us on our toes.
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Edenfire
Experienced Member Joined: May 18 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 17 |
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Hey everyone. I have to agree with Glow and roxy. I'm scared to post on here! lol
You guys can really kick the $%^& out of someone posting that may not agree or be quite as informed as anyone else... but on the flip side I feel that it is important to let everyone have their say, even the *&^% kickers. Freedom of speech blah blah blah... =)
But to roxy's point... I will continue to lurk and view until I feel that I have some earth shaking revelation that I must post... but of course I will check all my facts, have the FDA approve my post and I won't forget to post a link!
Peace! from one of them MANY lurkers out here.
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When I do good, I feel good. When I do bad, I feel bad. And that's my religion. ~Abraham Lincoln 1860
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pspiegel
Valued Member Joined: May 17 2006 Status: Offline Points: 73 |
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I'll add my vote to that! Nobody's here to be trashed by their peers (or their "betters"), but only to discuss and inform.
But at the risk of being flamed by my betters, I'll have to observe that many health care workers in Indonesia undoubtedly eat and/or handle poultry. Birds are ubiquitous in that country, as we well know. The simple fact that a HCW is infected with H5N1 doesn't prove anything to me unless there's evidence of H2H infection. Has there been any? |
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seesthelight
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Roxy, I agree with you 200% on why so few post. Your reply was a good one. hang in there.
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Only a lot of suspected H2H. It is difficult to confirm unless you can positively exclude any other possible means of transmission. Six months ago I was openly wondering if H5N1 had already mutated into a relatively mild flu and was spreading westward through Asia. I watched and waited and watched and waited and waited, but there was no confirmation of a mild flu anywhere other than the seasonal flu. So, it looks like I was wrong in my supposition. Let it be said that I still think that it is possible, and it may be circulating in Indonesia and has been doing so for months now as a human to human virus with low mortality. The hospitals are only seeing the cases that get out of control. 60 to 70 percent of those who go to hospital die, but what about those who get sick and recover. They don't go to hospital and are never sampled. The ony way to find out what is actually going on in Indonesia is to sample a cross section of the population to find out what percentage has antibodies to H5N1. A test was run years ago in mainland China and they estimated that about 35 million people in that country probably had antibodies to H5. The N type was not specified, so it could be H5N2 as well as H5N1. http://effectmeasure.blogspot.com/2005/12/shortridge-paper.html |
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Just want to say that I'm NOT a health care worker ... just a mom ... and the way I'm finding out so much is THIS FORUM. I'm not afraid to speak out and I hope those that are posting above will do so more often because ALL the views count here. If I make a wrong assumption there are those that know more that will bring it back into perspective and for the most part ... it has all been in kind. I respect those that have such a wealth of knowledge and am counting on them to get us through the more technical aspects of all this. In the meantime, I think there are times when, if we all just put our heads together, a solution can be figured out by the common-everyday observers that have been drawn to this forum. I hope to hear from our new posters above a little more often! -k
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mcnamara5769
Valued Member Joined: May 30 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 1 |
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New here...but a 103 temp can indeed come down in 24 hours. My daughter had one this morning and it went down to normal by her appointment at 11:00...she did have ibuprofen, but her temp has remained much lower throughout the day.
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Jesus, I trust in you!
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I agree whole heartedly with you, ReadyMom! I also feel that I really don’t have a lot to add to this forum, especially compared to the many knowledgeable people out there, but I decided to start posting after long time lurking anyway, because I have seen many times that people posting, replying and bouncing of each other has brought the greatest discussion, ideas and conclusion that could never have resulted otherwise. I do agree everything should happen without trashing each other, besides.. that is one of the forum rules. On a different note, a lot of discussion has been going on about whether it is BF or normal flu, but when reading the article, this caught my eye:
First case?? Meaning the first case they can no longer hide? (or disprove?) |
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Glow
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Grace excellent point!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.....stating "first case" is very telling.....
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Wonder how long it would take to get that FDA approval...
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I have to assume that the nurse would have been required to take the necessary precautions by wearing a face mask and gloves. Seeing that she was treating a patient with the avian flu virus.
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its a know fact that your temp goes up at night. and drops during the day...
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