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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Now tracking the Aussie Flu.

M-16 vs. AK-47: Which to choose?

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Turboguy View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2009 at 3:55am
From AR15.com
 
 
Q: Do I need a license to buy a machine gun?
A: No, you don't need a license. If you are permitted by law to own a handgun and your state allows the transfer of machine guns, you can buy one.

Q: Where do I get a permit for a machine gun?
A: You don' t need a permit, either. You do need to complete an "Application For Tax Paid Transfer and Registration of Firearm", also known as a Form 4, and this must be signed by the Chief Law Enforcement Officer (CLEO) in your locale. You also need to submit, in duplicate, a complete set of fingerprints and passport-size photos, plus a signed Certificate of Compliance, Form 5330.20, regarding your citizenship. The BATF then sends your fingerprints to the FBI for a background check while the BATF checks out the legality of the item being transferred. If all goes well, in about 90-120 days, the BATF sends the approved Form 4 back to your dealer and you can go pick up the Form 4 and your new toy. The item is now registered with the BATF in your name and the Form 4 is your only proof of this, so a copy should be with the NFA item at all times. Think of it sort of like a car title. The item was transferred to you and when you sell it, you transfer it to the new owner.

Q: What is the charge for this transfer?
A: When your application to Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms is submitted there is a $200 transfer tax to be paid for machine guns and silencers and a $5.00 transfer tax for AOW.

Q: I want one - is my state a "machine gun state"?
A: Click here to check out regs in your state: www.autoweapons.com/pagelinks/statelist.html
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detpat View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 14 2009 at 7:35am
outstanding points turboguy!

  I agree with everything he said, you aren't making much sense as you seem to have made several fundamental mistakes that are common to the less experienced.

  as for the butchering example you use........if you want to continue with that one you need to have your adversary's in a slaughter pen and calm, as well as still.  actually many farmers use a sledgehammer to kill the animals.  how do i know.....I've butchered more cattle and hogs than you have friends!  grew up on a  farm in northern WV and been there done that!
never underestimate the power of human stupidity
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2009 at 2:11am
OK fine.  You have your experience, and it's good that we share our experiences here, so that people who have questions can see where it goes.
I've never desired a machine gun.  Rather, I've owned many variations on the TC Contender action, and a good dose of Ruger #1 Rifles.  I have been in several shooting altercations, and I'm still here, writing.
I believe that the more important question (rather than a choice between AK or AR types) is what gun do you feel most comfortable with?  For some, the Nagant is a wonderful rifle.  If I had unlimited money and available ammo, I believe that the DPMS LR 308
http://www.dpmsrifle.com/item/66369_DPMS_Rifles_Shotguns_DPMS_PANTHER_LR-308_308WI.aspx   would be my top choice, and the Sierra 165 gr. Gameking would be the bullet that I would work out a best load for.  If we get through the next 3 years with mankind and our rights intact, I'll probably grow old(er), playing with that toy.
Meanwhile, I think the average guy who feels the need to acquire some decent defense weapons would be best advised to find an SKS rifle in good shape.  There's a whole discussion to go with those, but basically, the round is relatively recoil-less, effective, and available.
Do what you want to do.  I find that I am able to do what I want to do when I am armed with my little CRR carbine and my Glock 17.  More than once, that has been what I needed to convince people that it was better to leave me alone.  There is no other reason I can think of for pointing a gun toward other human beings.  G'day.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 15 2009 at 3:38am

Sparrowminded, I agree with the vast majority of your points.

 

I totally agree with your statement that whatever weapon system you're most comfortable with is the right one for you. A $150 Mosin-Nagant is an extremely powerful and pretty darn accurate firearm. I own one myself that I bought minty from Century. If you get to where you and that gun are one, I would be hard pressed to take you on knowing the limitations of that rifle.

 

My only real problems with the LR308 is that they use a proprietary magazine and the dirty direct gas impingement system. I've just got a problem with any weapon that magazines are expensive and as hard to come by as hen's teeth. The operating system basically "BLEEPs where it eats and with as much fairly slow burning powder as the .308 has the gun gets dirty quickly. Just my personal beef, if you like it, whatever stirs your oatmeal. My .308 battle rifle is an M14. The mags are extremely plentiful, the weapon's reliability is the standard to which all other battle rifles are compared. (Notice I said Battle RIFLES, not Carbines like an AK, AR15 etc)

 
I thought those DPMS rifles were going for $1100? That's really not all that bad right now.  

 

I very much enjoy the Contender. Funny story about that one: I got a call about a suicide with firearm. When I arrived I found a guy dead with a gunshot under his chin through the top of his head. He was using a Contender with the barrel in .30 cal (Like an M1 Carbine). Problem was that the first shot didn't kill him so he had to reload and zap himself again with that single shot pistol.

 

If I were going to recommend a weapon to the unwashed masses it'd depend on their monetary well being. For most I'd say to go with an AR variant. They're ubiquitous, meaning you can get parts, ammo, and mags quite literally anywhere and they're more than powerful enough for social uses. AR's can start at $600 and top out somewhere around $3000. I build my own, part by part, so I get exactly what I want at abetter price than if I bought the rifle outright.

 

Second Choice I'd get an AK of some kind. They're still pretty plentiful, ubiquitous parts, and still a great choice for social uses.

 
Only then would I recommend the venerable SKS. Oh they're very much like the AK system, it's just that parts and magazines for them are a bit more difficult to find and they have that whole open top deal. Don't get me wrong, they're fantastic little guns, and strangely accurate considering the shortcoming that the 7.62x39 is.
 
My newest gun that is probably going to get my "Go to gun" title is the Sig556. They took all the best parts of the AK and AR15 and came out with a darn nice weapon. My beef with it is that parts are hard to come by, but if it's anything like the Sig550 series, parts breakage should be very limited.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 1:52am
It's nice to have the toyz, but the old Sarge in "Once we were Soldiers" really hit it for me when he went in with a 1911, and told the boss that if he needed a rifle, there'd be plenty laying around.
Of course, you know that most SKS rifles don't have detachable mags.
Back to the Sarge tho.  There really isn't any virtue in collecting guns, or even owning the "right one" before things get nasty.  Having adequate defense is the big ticket.  For the layman, a 12 ga. pump and a case of #4 buck should be fine to see him through any short-term conflict.  For someone more gun oriented, it may be good to have a Glock 17 and a Kel Tec 9mm carbine that accepts the same mags.  After the shooting starts, there will indeed be plenty of rifles laying around.  There is merit in having nothing planned but a good hiding place, where you can go until the first round of local conflict has passed.  Just wait, and then sneak out and see what you can find.
Your points about the dirty action of the DPMS are well taken.  That's why I object to the AR platform.  For someone interested, the Remington R-15 line uses a gas piston, and the new Ruger 556:
http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Rifle&subtype=Autoloading&famlst=66&variation=10/22® Rimfire  has a 2 stage piston with a 4 position gas regulator.  If you carefully study all that went into that Ruger, you may decide that this is as far as the AR platform can go.  It competes with the M-4, but weighs 8 lbs, unloaded.  The quad rail is a big weight culprit, but the chrome lined bore is a big attraction.  I do not like being limited to a 16" barrel, as muzzle flash will be a problem with most loads, and velocity will be limited to about 2,800 fps.  I just found this:
http:///www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire_rifles/Model_R-25.asp  This one is a gas piston AR action in .243, 7/'08, or .308  Look at the R-15 on your own time!  The big advantage is the 20" barrel.  Comes with a 4 round mag, but accepts DPMS 19 rounders.
You could go on and on.  I hope we get thru the next 2 years with little real difference in our daily lives, but a whole bunch of indicators keep adding up to force us to be ready by this October.  Swine flu vaccinations that could well be designed to kill us, and the fall of the US dollar.  I'll keep accumulating .22 lr, 9mm and 12 ga. ammo.
I hope there are others watching this discussion, and learning whatever they may from it.
BTW-  I too had a .30 cal. TC, but that was in .30-30, with the 16 1/8" barrel.  One pet load for that was 35 gr. of BLC-2 with the Sierra 135 gr. single shot pistol bullet.  One of the most satisfying muzzle blasts ever witnessed!  Your suicide guy would have settled for one round.  I shot a doe with that gun once, and everything forward of the grass bag was liquid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 16 2009 at 3:55am
You can remove that stupid ten rounder easy as pie so you can start using the 30 round aftermarket magazines. Since SKS's aren't technically "Assault weapons" since they don't have the pistol grip you won't run afoul of any 922r restrictions as long as you use American mags and two American made parts. Just remove the stock and trigger assembly and reassemble without the magazine. for a detachable magazine rifle. Easy as pie!
 
I can't say I'm a fan of Ruger after the 2nd Amendment treason they pulled back when the "Assault Weapon" ban went into effect in 1994. I understand that they're under different ownership/management since then, but I've still got that whole once a traitor always a traitor stuck in my craw. Same goes for Colt and S&W. I probably wouldn't buy one based on that fact alone. Just my personal beef. Colt can, to this day, kiss my arse based on their saying they weren't going to be selling guns to civilians in 1995. Now their crap is just overpriced garbage. Numerous AR manufacturers make a far better product for half the price.
 
The 16 inch barrel only has a large muzzle flash if you've got no muzzle brake/flash hider on your barrel. I've got an AR with the Phantom flash hider and my G36 has a Vortex. Both nearly totally eliminate any flash signature even with Wolf ammo. Occasionally I'll get sparks, but I don't get fireballs like I did without a muzzle attachment at all.
 
I don't know if the SHTF there'll be many rifles laying around. There'll definately be pistols, at least in the cities, most horribly in disrepair after only a few weeks. I've got one of those 9mm Kel Tecs that take glock magazines and love it. Accurate little bastard for the simplicity of it. Plastic front sight and all. It's very good with regular Winchester White Box FMJ, but if you can get your hands on some genuine SMG ammo, that thing ROCKS.
 
The Sarge was a movie star. I have a pistol to fight my way to my rifle. Not use it to get a new one. If I know I'm going to be getting into some **** I'm bringing a rifle and a friend with a rifle to back me up.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sparrowminded Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2011 at 1:32am
All good points.  Since that exchange, I've found a nice little Yugo M70AB2 that comes out of the drag bag when the road gets dusty.  One thing I've been stressing with myself is to get accustomed to carrying it whenever I'm in places where I can.  Your mention of causing as much damage as possible to a bad guy makes great sense.  I put a lot of faith in Russian HP ammo, although I've seen a huge amount of discussion about that as well.
Still, I believe that the vast majority of people who feel the need to be aggressive in a SHTF situation will be very limited in their knowledge of firearms, or assault tactics.  I believe that for MOST of the time, my .22 carbine, loaded with Aguila Interceptors is more gun than most people want to deal with.  Even if they do have a Barret, they DO  NOT  want to get hit with one of those.  When you're cut off from medical treatment, you don't want to get hit by anything
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2011 at 8:54am
i have a couple yugo's in my stable, fine rifles and very sturdy, being built on the rpk receiver instead of the AKM.  hell i even have the RPK version of the rifle.  i prefer the standard stock to the underfolder, just because the UF's get a little loose with use.  i have an old SAR1 that i modded to use the AK100 series poly left side folder and it's a great little rifle.

  if you use a muzzle nut instead of one of the usual muzzle devices that rifle will fit in a tennis racket bag and you can have the rifle and mag in a low profile bag that no one will want to steal in an emergency situation.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2011 at 6:38pm
I recently got my greedy hands on a nice Arsenal SGL31 Ak74 from AimSurplus and to say that thing rocks is a total understatement!

THe 5.45x39 round isn't my favorite, but when I'm paying $100/1000 rounds of Russian surplus it's starting to grow on me in a big way.

That rifle is surprisingly accurate for an AK and is quite capable of 2 MOA when I've got an optic attached to it. I had it out shooting Tannerite and could nail the 4x4 inch cylinders with the first shot pretty much every time. If you're looking into AK pattern rifles, absolutely give the 5.45x39 weapons a hard look, you won't regret it. Special emphasis on the Arsenal guns as they are by far the best AK's made. See if you can check out an Arsenal AK the next time you're at the fun store.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2011 at 6:42pm
they are very nice.. are you on www.theakforum.net   
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2011 at 9:48pm
AR15.com I'm under the same name. I think they also do AK47.net. It's the biggest gun related site in existence.

I've never been to TheAKForum.
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2011 at 9:51pm
that forum is a really nice place, I'm on afrcom, but not that often anymore.  gunboards, PAFOA and a few others nowadays.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote detpat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2011 at 9:51pm
my handle on most boards is MPI
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote zoe17 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2013 at 6:53pm
Gravedig for the H7N9 pandemic time frame for weapons/ammo discussion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 14 2013 at 10:40pm
Originally posted by zoe17 zoe17 wrote:

Gravedig for the H7N9 pandemic time frame for weapons/ammo discussion.


If you've got any questions, I'll be more than happy to answer them. Smile
Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views. - William F. Buckley
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