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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic

Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 12:54am
Economically this plane-crash and the escalating Gaza-war are a disaster. It will lead to higher prices for energy stopping economic growth. 

A lot of wars, from Nigeria, Ukraine to Gaza/Israël are energy-related. Wars are not natural phenomena but organized (crime). 
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hachiban08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:45am
Now they are saying at least 1 American was on the plane. Yesterday,everyone was going on and on about there being 23, then later on in the evening, they claimed they didn't know if any were on the plane.  So which is it? It makes no sense.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-plane-shot-down-missile-1-american-dead-160415599--politics.html
Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v
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arirish View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote arirish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 12:03pm
hachiban08- Welcome to modern journalism! They are in such a hurry to get a scoop on the other networks that they just blather on and report rumors and rumors of rumors, never checking facts, never checking sources! Speculating on "WHO, WHAT, WHY and WHEN" instead of doing real reporting! Most of the talking heads are chosen because they look good on TV and can read from a teleprompter. There is no requirement that they have any intelligence.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 2:51pm
Yep - at least three or four days before anything coherent and consistent starts to come out, and weeks or months before it starts to make any real sense.
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"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote hachiban08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 3:36pm
I agree with you both, Arirish and Jacksdad. It's just a bit frustrating at times. One of the people who passed went to Indiana University as a doctoral student in Chemistry, originally from the Netherlands, my friend knew her. So sad. :/
Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 5:46pm
To All,does any one know why that any one else would want 100 HIV and Virologist specialists dead?Johnray1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 5:49pm
Well, that was embarrassing.
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jacksdad View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:48pm
Honestly, I don't think it's any more than an unfortunate coincidence. AIDS researchers don't strike me as a legitimate target to anybody - certainly not enough to risk an international incident in an already politically charged situation anyway.
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rickster58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:52pm
I'm sure the US knows exactly who fired this missile. The Ukraine is an active theatre of war and the US would have had swarms of satellites watching exactly what was happening in real time.

They know who fired it and where it was fired from.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 6:59pm
I completely agree, rickster.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:02pm
Local people in Ukraine claim the plane was shot down by a jet-fighter. The remains of the plane should be investigated to find out what has happened. (Certainly if it is a second plane from the same company involved in such an accident). 

The US/NATO and Russia is monitoring the area and if they have evidence be open with it. http://www.prisonplanet.com/was-malaysian-airlines-mh-17-accidentally-shot-down-over-ukraine.html
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 7:15pm
rickster58. You are 100% correct and our people knew all of this information with in seconds or minutes of the Missile being launched. Other countries know the same thing. I believe that our President and the other leaders are afraid to say that it was fired from Russian soil and show the proof.Because if they did that,then someone would have to enter Russia and arrest the guilty people and take them for trial. The US Army is the only Army on this planet that is capable of doing this,but Obama does not have the courage to give an order like that.It is not that America or our soldiers are afraid to this,but our President is afraid of Putin. I think that Putin gave the order, just to see if he could push the envelope a little more and he did and he is going to get by with it.----- We badly need a real President.------- With all of the dead Virologist,it would not surprise me if a deadly Viral Flu starts some time in the near future. Johnray1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 8:42pm

MH17: separatists block international observers from crash site

Gunmen fired shots into the air in a warning to OSCE monitors visiting site where Malaysia Airlines plane came down

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters

Representatives from the OSCE arrive at the crash site surrounded by pro-Russian fighters
Reuters

  • 3:20AM BST 19 Jul 2014

Gunmen prevented monitors from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe from observing the site where a Malaysian airliner crashed in rebel-held eastern Ukraine on Friday, the rights and security watchdog said.

Calling their behaviour "impolite and unprofessional", an OSCE spokesman said some gunmen in the area seemed intoxicated while others would not let the team of about 25 observers look at the wreckage of the Boeing 777.

"We had expected unfettered access, that's the way we work," Michael Bociurkiw told a news conference.

"Unfortunately the task was made very difficult. Upon arrival at the site ... we encountered armed personnel who acted in a very impolite and unprofessional manner. Some of them even looked slightly intoxicated."

He denied that the observers had been fired at by pro-Russian rebels, but said one gunman fired shots into the air, seemingly to scare off some civilians.

Earlier, the OSCE's permanent council chairman, Thomas Greminger, told Reuters monitors had not been able to secure an access corridor for the crash-site and that investigators had stayed there for only about 75 minutes before setting off back to Donetsk.

The United States said it was "very concerned" about the way the OSCE monitors had been treated.

"Those who say they are going to participate in or welcome this investigation need to give unfettered access and obviously, we didn't see that when these individuals were there for 75 minutes," U.S. State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki told a regular news briefing in Washington.

The United States wanted to see "a credible, international investigation," she said, adding that the U.S. government had offered to send personnel and resources from the National Transportation and Safety Board and the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Psaki said the Ukrainians had accepted the offer and the NTSB and FBI would each send at least one investigator, although it was unclear when they would go.

"And we of course will be responsive to their needs moving forward," she said.

World leaders have called for a rapid investigation into the shooting down of the airliner, which could mark a pivotal moment in deteriorating relations between Russia and the West. The United States and Britain said a surface-to-air missile appeared to have been fired from rebel held territory.

There were no survivors from the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, a Boeing 777. The United Nations said 80 of the 298 aboard were children. It was the deadliest attack on a commercial airliner and scattered bodies were seen over miles of rebel-held territory near the border with Russia.

U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power told a meeting of the U.N. Security Council on Friday it was unlikely the separatists could have effectively operated that missile system without help from knowledgeable personnel.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin called for an "impartial, open investigation of what happened," and warned against any attempts to prejudge the matter.

Bociurkiw said the OSCE intended to visit the site again on Saturday and spend the whole day there. "We unfortunately could not get much done today because of the behaviour of the armed individuals and the lack of access," he said.

He said the team could not find anyone to talk to about the airliner's black box, and that it was not clear who was in charge of the territory where the airliner crashed.

"The crash site is a very large area and there may be more than one group who holds sway over that area," he said.

He added that while the bodies had not been touched - they seemed to be lying where they fell, personal possessions appeared to have been arranged in piles as if "for show".

Some of the bodies showed early signs of decomposition.

"As for observing close up the wreckage of the Boeing 777 that was very difficult. The armed guards did not allow us very much leeway to leave the roadway and look at the wreckage," he said.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10977705/MH17-separatists-block-international-observers-from-crash-site.html


"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote rickster58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:23pm
You know what bothers me from reading all the initial reports. That is the fact the Russian separatists located the black box recorders almost immediately and sent them to Moscow.

On whose orders?

IMO, Russia should be the last country handling any vital evidence to do with this disaster.

Why hasn't the US demanded they be handed over to a neutral country immediately?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:31pm
Hi Rick! Our experts on TV said the black boxes will tell us nothing since it was a surface-to-air missile. This FAA guy said it was more important to get samples of the residue off of debris. He said that they can tell what kind of missile and a bunch of other things I don't remember now. LOL, I am in the middle of getting a new kitchen my mind is gone.

So let them take the black box to Moscow it proves nothing but there was recording then an explosion. Putin is responsible it was a Russian Missile launched by Russian Minions. But like North Korea years ago nothing will happen. Sad for the families.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Johnray1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:43pm
rickjster58. Putin gave the order.. As far as Obama ordering that they be sent to a neutral nation,Obama is not going to order Putin to do anything.I hope that we can survive 2 more years of this man. Johnray1
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rickster58 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2014 at 9:54pm
Hi FluMom
I do agree the black boxes will tell little ..... it's the MOTIVE and Chain of Command I'm interested in.

Agreed Johnray1 - Obama is counter productive to the US and should be impeached immediately. His attitude of "screw Congress', I'll do what-ever-the-hell I want is just plain wrong. Everything he touches turns to S*it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:03am
http://www.malaysiaairlines.com/my/en/site/mh17.html

Saturday, July 19, 11:40 AM GMT +0800 Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

Media Statement 6: MH17 Incident

The below table shows the latest number of passengers and their nationalities of those on-board MH17, as of 19 July 2014:-

 

Nationality

Total

 

Netherlands

192 (including 1 dual Netherlands/USA citizen)

 

Malaysia

44 (including 15 crew & 2 infants)

 

Australia

27

 

Indonesia

12 (including 1 infant)

 

United Kingdom

10 (including 1 dual UK/S. Africa citizen)

 

Germany

4

 

Belgium

4

 

Philippines

3

 

Canada

1

 

New Zealand

1

 

Total

298

  

 

     

Malaysia Airlines is working closely with the respective embassies to notify the next-of-kin of the passengers.

Our focus now is to work with the emergency responders and authorities and mobilize its full support to provide all possible care to the next-of-kin.

Our thoughts and prayers are with all affected passengers and crew and their family members.

The airline will provide regular updates on the situation.

Families of passengers and crew may contact +603 7884 1234 (Malaysia) or +31703487770 (Netherlands).

For media queries, kindly contact +603 8777 5698/ +603 8787 1276. 

-end-

Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:05am
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2014/07/17/777-shot-down-over-ukraine/

We spoke to air catastrophe and air-defence specialists. Here are several points they drew our attention towards:

1) It is not a fact that it was a “Buk” air-defence system and in general nothing is fact for the air catastrophe experts before the investigation is carried out.  According to the Chicago convention, Ukraine has to carry out the investigation (as the jet fell down on our territory), and anybody can be included in the committee. For an objective investigation, we have to capture the territory where the jet fell, and at least document the parts of the plane, bodies, traces of the attack part of the missiles’ damage on video (is it is a “Buk,” then metal rods, if it is a C-200 – ball-bearing parts etc.), find the black boxes etc.

2) The air traffic services should have closed this zone for flights right after the AN-26 was taken down yesterday from a height unaccessible for the man-portable air-defence system. Before it was closed up to 8 (we think) kilometres, it was enough for protection from the man-portable system (the missiles are small and have enough fuel for 4-5 kilometres only).  From the perspective of civil aviation safety, the fall of the jet is our mistake and Ukraine should be the one to pay compensations. And this is a huge blow to Ukraine as an aviation transportation operator.

3) As to the “Buk”: in theory, for the system’s successful work, a minimum of 4 out of 5 vehicles within the complex is necessary: the commandment car, the target locator car, the targeting car and the firing point with the missiles.  One can do without the charging car, which transports additional missiles, in case the missiles have been set up on the firing point in advance.  15-17 highly-qualified military specialists are needed to service these military specialists.

4) The principle of action of “Buk” air-defence system: – under close supervision of the commander, the locator determines the target and the coordinates; – the operator of the firing system launches the missile in the given direction; – the targeting car lights up the target with radio waves; – this reflected signal is captured by the self-targeting system of the missiles and its computer corrects the course; – the missile explodes several metres before reaching the plane, sending metal rods flying everywhere that damage the fuselage, the engines, the electric system etc.

5) “Buk’s” range is 40-50 kilometres horizontally and 20-25 vertically. It is a general military weapon (covers the soldiers from air attack directly on the battlefield), and not an air-defence forces weapon.

6) The air-defence system’s locators show three kinds of targets (as radio signals):  – missile (one leading engine); – destroyer, storm jet or a similar small military jet (the turbine of the engine creates a recognisable radio signal); – strategic bombarder or transportation jet (a big plane with many engines). The latter category could include a passenger vessel, as the radio image is identical.

7) If it is a “Buk,” then:  – it could have come from Russian territory. The caterpillar track can take the vehicles even through fields; – it could have been part of the captured Ukrainian Armed Forces division (if they indeed had all the parts of the complex). However military specialists for such accordant work were clearly imported, the reserve army is insufficient in this case; – it could have even worked from Russian territory, somewhere around Kuybyshevo. However, the Boeing was moving with its cruising speed (about 900 km/hr) and during the fall its parts continued falling to the east because of inertia.

8) This could have been not a “Buk,” but a different air-defence system.

9) Additional materials regarding “Buk” – http://rbase.new-factoria.ru/missile/wobb/buk-2m/buk-2m.shtml

10) But this is all in theory, we need EVIDENCE – data from civil radars, military equipment, satellites, CONTROL OVER THE CRASH SITE, not to allow the locals to take the parts for scrap metal et

Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:06am
ETN received information from an air traffic controller in Kiev on Malaysia Airlines flight MH17.

This Kiev air traffic controller is a citizen of Spain and was working in the Ukraine. He was taken off duty as a civil air-traffic controller along with other foreigners immediately after a Malaysia Airlines passenger aircraft was shot down over the Eastern Ukraine killing 295 passengers and crew on board.

The air traffic controller suggested in a private evaluation and basing it on military sources in Kiev, that the Ukrainian military was behind this shoot down. Radar records were immediately confiscated after it became clear a passenger jet was shot down.

Military air traffic controllers in internal communication acknowledged the military was involved, and some military chatter said they did not know where the order to shoot down the plane originated from.

Obviously it happened after a series of errors, since the very same plane was escorted by two Ukrainian fighter jets until 3 minutes before it disappeared from radar.

Radar screen shots also show an unexplained change of course of the Malaysian Boeing. The change of course took the aircraft directly over the Eastern Ukraine conflict region.

Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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