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Malaysian passenger plane crashes in Ukraine

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:08am
Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted.
Update:  If, as claimed a BUK missile was fired at Putin’s plane.  President Putin’s version of Air Force One has extensive ECM modules capable of jamming incoming missiles.  Were a missile fired at them and it locked on, ECM, as with America’s “Air Force One,” would jam the missile systems.  It is also likely that Russia has a “back door” into all systems they build, such as the one the “Ukies” had deployed outside Donetsk..
We have no confirmation that Putin’s plane had a fighter escort but are assuming it did not.  Were a missile to have hit the Malaysian plane, evidence will be easily discernible and missile wreckage should already have been found.
As to whether an air-to-air or ground-to-air missile is found to be the culprit, we should know in hours unless that is suppressed.  Either way, John McCain’s childish threats, to only go after those responsible if they happen to be enemies of his “handlers,” was an unwise statement.

This is another quote from the VT-article mentioned earlier. I put this quote here because I wonder why Malaysian Airlines is effected twice this year. Most countries, including the Netherlands, could be found guilty of war crimes somewere in their past. (The Dutch East Indies-War 1945-1949 did see Dutch war crimes). 
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:10am
US surveillance which includes AWAC, drones and satellites is capable of detecting the launch of any air defense missile, ground based, capable of reaching the necessary 32,000 foot altitude.

Such a weapon would have been spotted in seconds and, as all such systems in the region are under continual surveillance due to the sensitive nature of the conflict and the history of allegations made, making claims we expect to be made outlandish.
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Dutch Josh View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 3:26am
In the media I see a lot of finger-pointing on Russia without much evidence that is trustworthy. The phone-call-tapes from the Ukraine secret service do not convince me. AWACS-planes must have caught any surface to Air missiles, even when they were fired from western Russia-border area. (Even though the plane crashed 50 kilometres west from the Russian border). 

I have much doubts about the claim that separatist are responsible given the fact that this SA-weapon is that complicated to handle and the separatists do not seem to be that organized. Russian "advisors" would think twice before using such a weapon. Eventhough Putin was on his way back from the BRICS-summit in Brasillia (were the BRICS-countries started their own World Bank and IMF, clearing to road further for another worldcurrency than the US-petro-dollar) he did not fly over the Ukraine. 

Veterans Today is always pointing its finger against Israel. I do not agree with that. But they might have a point in saying that Israel has fighters based in Azerbeidjan. 

The first priority has to be bringing back the bodies. In Dutch nes there is alot of attention for the fact that whole families, father-mother-chlidren, are killed. It is disrespectfull that some media are pushing for military action while a lot of people are waiting to say goodby to their loved ones. 

The world has allready seen to much madness, we do not need more !
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:08am
"Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals which found George W Bush and company guilty as well as Israel guilty of war crimes, perhaps this is why they were targeted."

GWB has strong genetic descention from the Netherlands (As do I. That's how I know). He would be more likely to blow up a plane full of sick chickens. If he were still president this event would probably have not happened. And we would be there on the ground by now if it had. What happened was exactly what appears to have happened. A sad mistake by amateurs that is now being covered up by Russia. Yeah, Bush did it-in so far as he was term limited.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:38am
I agree, Josh. The first order of business is to find and recover the victims who are still lying out there, including the 80 children and 3 infants lost in this tragedy.
There are at least three groups that know what happened - Russia and the US (who have eyes everywhere 24/7, especially a conflict zone with the potential for international escalation like the Ukraine), and the SOBs that targeted a commercial flight with almost 300 innocents on board. Now we have to hope that justice prevails and behind the scenes politics doesn't hand us a sacrificial lamb in place of the real perpetrators.
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"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote inthesticks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:45am
Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote DANNYKELLEY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 6:59am
If the shoe fits!!
WHAT TO DO????
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:02am
Originally posted by inthesticks inthesticks wrote:

Can we please stop the Obama-bashing? Geez...you folks dislike the man so much that you spend all your time conjuring up hate and directing it towards our President? Give it a break! This is not the place for that crap.


So defending Bush is now Obama bashing? To defend, one must first be offended. Bush and Putin at least had a little sence of respect for each other - or fear. Tended to keep **** like this from happening. Tended. Putin has no respect at all for your president. We tried to tell you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 7:12am
inthesticks - full marks for trying at least Thumbs Up

"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 8:28am
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 4:16pm
no one has pointed out ,on Monday all airlines were warned not to fly in that "AIR SPACE'

as cargo planes had been shot down ,

but some were to SAVE FUEL.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guetss Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2014 at 8:01pm
Can you reference that pleasBrbrh
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2014 at 9:46am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buk_missile_system The separatist would have used this complicated system. Most separatists, I understand their fighting force is proberbly under 20.000 fighters, are miners, not well educated poor people with Russian background. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass_People%27s_Militia

There of course is the possibility that Russia stationed a "Buk-missile-system" in or near the Eastern Ukraine. But then again why would they do so ? The biggist threat comes from low-flying planes/helicopters not high altitude (above 7000 metres) planes. (I do not know at what altitude the planes that were shot down earlier were flying. The 'no-fly-zone' was below 7000 metres).  The claim that the separatists had a Buk-system was made by one journalist; http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/ukraine-air-force-jet-downed-russian-missile-24598894

The US claims it has evidence that the separatists used one of the four missiles against the Malaysian civil airplane. (I also understand that the separatists would have used more of the 4 missiles) 

In the past there have been more civilian planes shot down http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airliner_shootdown_incidents, in 2001 the Ukraine was involved in shooting down Siberian Airlines Flight 1812 from Tel Aviv to Novosibirsk. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812

I believe only very good investigations, excluding bombs, maintenance etc as a cause (since this is the second Malaysian Airlines plane, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines both involving Boeing 777-200ER planes-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysia_Airlines_Flight_370 can be a bases to draw conclusions. 

In the past Weapons of Mass Destruction, gas-attacks etc have been used as an excuse for action without good evidence. 




Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote onefluover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2014 at 11:15am
Dutch, in your post that mentions Malaysia hosted the war crimes tribunals, you seem to throw it out there that perhaps GWB and or the Jews are behind the downing of this plane. I'm sorry but I took offense to that. Though it is clearly true that many governments have been proven to set up false flags and or be at the root of dirty deeds, including America and Isreal, in this case I highly doubt either country is behind what happened on the Ukrain/Russian border. I love the people of the Netherlands and am as saddened and angry over this as anyone. All of the people on that plane and the countries they are from were innocent and deserve respect and then justice against those who would do such a thing. In time I am confident the world will know the truth of what happened and I support those, especially the Netherlands, if there is to be justice realized.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:31am
onefluover, I have nothing against Israel, I do not want to offense anybody on this forum. I quoted Veterans Today and I did put the remark that VT always blames Israel with wich I do NOT agre ! Maybe you missed that remark ? (I put this remark also at that post by edit)

Sorry if I offended you, I am not on this forum to offend anybody !

I do want the truth, or as near as it can get, about this disaster that killed that many humans and could be used as an excuse for actions that are damaging humanity.
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2014 at 12:53am
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SBIRS The (US) Space Based Infra Red System would have been able to detect missiles like "Buk". 

Original SBIRS Low[edit]

The SBIRS Low program was originally expected to consist of about 24 satellites in low earth orbit. The primary purpose of SBIRS Low was the tracking of ballistic missiles and discriminating between the warheads and other objects, such as decoys, that separate from the missile bodies throughout the middle portion of their flights. The system was to have two major sensors, coordinated by an on-board computer:

  • a scanning infrared sensor, designed to acquire ballistic missiles in the early stages of flight.
  • a tracking infrared sensor, designed to follow missiles, warheads, and other objects such as debris and decoys during the middle and later stages of flight. The tracking sensor would be cooled to very low temperatures.

SBIRS Low's original deployment schedule was 2010, the date when its capabilities were said to be needed by the National Missile Defense System.

Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hachiban08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2014 at 3:29pm
Per Good Morning America's Facebook: JUST IN: Rebel leader presents what he says are Flight MH17's black boxes to Malaysian officials
Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 04 2014 at 12:23am
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 05 2014 at 1:09am
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 25 2018 at 2:11pm
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-25/bishop-demands-compensation-from-russia-for-mh17/9801056 and https://www.rt.com/news/427739-russia-rejects-mh17-downing-claim/

DJ-I do not believe "seperatists" did shoot down MH17-"seperatists" simply will not have access to this kind of anti-aircraft-arms. I do think that if there was a pro-Russian involvement it had to be related to the Russian Army. 

Both Ukraine and Russia did have BUK-anti-aircraft missiles. Ukraine 1-was responsible for keeping open that route-even with the dangers, 2-had most to gain by shooting down a western plane and blame it on Russia, 3-is part of the international investigation team, Russia is kept out of that team. 

DJ-I do think it is good to keep pressure on the MH17 mass murder. When an international criminal court would find Russia guilty Russia has a lot to explain. On the other hand-by keeping up international pressure-when pro-Kiev "groups" are found to be responsible Ukraine has even more to explain (since they were part of the investigation-team). 

There are many questions on the "official findings" (without any shown evidence). http://joostniemoller.nl/2018/05/het-jit-rommelt-met-bewijsmateriaal-bij-presentatie-van-raket-mh17/ The victims and their families have a right to know who was responsible and why. (If a "Vagner" Private Military Contractor -pro-Russian group accidently shot down the MH17 it is a different story than when Ukraine Army did this on purpose to put the blame on Russia.)

Since the downing of MH17 there have been many "false-flags" aiming to blame Assad, Russia, Iran-MH17 could be part of that (criminal western) scheme. Like 9-11 (2001) (and the killing of JFK etc.) it is very likely that "there will be an open end". 

Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !
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