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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Now tracking the Aussie Flu.

Natural Remedies that SHOULD NOT BE USED w/ H5N1!

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figure'n it out View Drop Down
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    Posted: June 04 2006 at 6:35am
I am concerned... please everyone can we work together and post on this thread info containing natural remedies that increase the cytokine storm that comes as a complication w/ the BF.... alot of people know that Elderberry is BAD for this strain as is Honey...I have more but need to gather my info and resources to share...HELP! KEEP THREAD SPECIFIC TO WHAT NOT TO GET ( we don't want to feed our children, etc...a remedy that will surely cause complications!) Thank you for your help everyone...Have a Happy Sunday! Alot of people need to reveiw thier supplies and make changes!!!!! I had too!
history repeats its self
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote figure'n it out Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2006 at 7:13am
DO NOT USE;
Elderberry juice (Sambucal) Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. Increases in these cytokines may trigger lethal cytokine storm. Isr. Med Journal 2002

Honey- Increases production of cytokines TNF-a and IL-6. PubMed PMID12824009

Chocolate- Increases production of above cytokines

Echinacea- increases production as well.

Micro Algae ( Chlorella and Spirulina) increases production of cytokine TNF-a.

Kimchi- increases productions as well.
Good luck Everyone!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nettie4263 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 04 2006 at 9:12pm
I thought kimchi was supposed to CURE bird flu?
 
Also, I bought a lot of honey because jelly would need refrigeration.  Honey would be fine to use unless we were ill, correct?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Calendula Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 7:20am
I do not believe Kimchi has been categorized as  bird flu cure, to the best of my knowledge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nettie4263 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 7:42am
http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=7154&KW=kimche
 
It's not a proven cure by any means, but I thought I had read about it here...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 9:17am

I think both sides to every story about "bad" cures needs to be aired, so people can make their own choice.

I fully intend to use elderberry as a way to fight off BF.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:08pm
Here is the info I have found.. I will not be useing elderberry.  I will use it for normal flu!
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2006 at 4:35pm
Hopefully in the coming months we will see more medical information, but there is not much evidence.  Natural substances never get much scientific research because there is no big profit.  This would need very complicated research because what might help for most year's influenza, when it might be GOOD to stimulate the immune system, might be bad in a bad pandemic year due to the wrong kind of overstimulation.  Age also comes into play.  What might help an elderly or immune compromised person might be harmful for a young person or young to middle aged adult for the same reasons.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GingerSnap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2006 at 9:14am
From my readings, elderberry extract WITH curcumerin/biopiperine but WITHOUT echinacea should be fine.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 26 2006 at 4:08pm

New evidence of cytokine storm in avian flu cases
http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/panflu/news/jun1406cytokine.html

Jun 14, 2006 (CIDRAP News) – Scientists in Hong Kong have reported new experimental evidence that avian influenza infections in human cells are more likely to trigger a destructive immune-system overreaction, or "cytokine storm," than human flu viruses are.

Writing in the July 1 Journal of Infectious Diseases, the researchers report that two avian flu viruses, a 1997 strain of H5N1 and a 1997 H9N2 strain, caused immune system cells in lab cultures to produce much greater levels of certain chemokines (a class of cytokine, or messenger protein) than such cells did when infected with an ordinary human flu virus.

"In general, the chemokines and chemokine-receptor responses of MDMs [monocyte-derived macrophages, a type of immune cell] to avian influenza viruses were much stronger than those to human virus, which may account for the high pathogenicity of avian viruses," the report states.

In addition, the H5N1 strain caused immune cells from adults to produce higher levels of certain cytokines than similar cells from newborn babies did. The authors say that finding may help explain why Hong Kong's human H5N1 outbreak in 1997 killed 5 of 9 infected adults (older than 12) but only 1 of 9 infected children. That sharp difference in adult and child mortality rates has not been seen in the current wave of H5N1 cases dating to late 2003.

Scientists have suggested that the cytokine storm played a role in the high death rate in the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic and is playing a similar role in human cases of H5N1 infection today. Autopsies of H5N1 avian flu victims in Vietnam and elsewhere have revealed lungs choked with debris from excessive inflammation triggered by the virus. Similar severe lung damage was frequently reported in victims of the 1918 pandemic, which disproportionately killed people with the strongest immune systems—young, healthy adults.

The new study was conducted by a University of Hong Kong team that has previously reported experimental evidence of a cytokine storm in H5N1 avian flu. The team includes J. S. Malik Peiris and, as first author, Jianfang Zhou.

In view of the severe lung damage caused by H5N1 in humans, the team decided to measure the expression of four chemokines and two chemokine receptors induced in MDM cells by avian and human flu viruses. They also sought to compare the chemokine production induced by these viruses in adult-derived MDMs and in neonatal MDMs derived from umbilical cord blood.

Three viruses were used: a strain from the 1997 human outbreak in Hong Kong, a 1997 strain of H9N2 from quail, and a 1998 strain of H1N1 human flu from Hong Kong. The H9N2 virus is a precursor of the H5N1 virus, with which it shares six internal proteins, the report says. Because of the safety risks involved in working with H5N1 viruses, the team first did the experiment with the H9N2 virus and then repeated it with the H5N1 virus in a biosafety level 3 facility.

The investigators found that all three viruses replicated at similar rates in both adult and neonatal MDMs, as indicated by similar numbers of viral matrix gene copies in the cells. That suggested that differences in chemokine production are not due to greater growth of the avian viruses.

The MDMs generally showed much greater chemokine responses to the avian flu viruses than to the human flu virus, and the differences were often greater for the adult MDMs than the neonatal MDMs, the report says.

For example, the adult MDM responses to the H5N1 strain were roughly 20-fold greater than their responses to the H1N1 virus. For one particular chemokine, called CCL3, the increase for adult MDMs was about 25-fold, but for neonatal MDMs, it was significantly lower—less than 10-fold, as shown on a graph in the report. For the other three measured chemokines, the responses of adult MDMs to H5N1 also exceeded those of the neonatal MDMs, but the differences were smaller.

Also, compared with the H1N1 virus, the H5N1 virus caused adult MDMs to express 6- to7-fold greater levels of the two chemokine receptors (CCR1 and CCR5). But the H5N1 strain induced no significant increase in expression of chemokine receptors by the neonatal MDMs.

"We have demonstrated that human MDMs have differential responses to human influenza virus H1N1/98 and avian viruses H9N2/G1 and H5N1/97, in spite of their similar infectivity and viral replication," the authors write. "Moreover, stronger chemokine and chemokine-receptor responses to avian influenza viruses were detected in adult MDMs than in neonatal MDMs."

They add that the higher CCL3 response to H5N1 by adult MDMs, as compared with neonatal MDMs, may be "one of the important factors" in the higher adult mortality rate in Hong Kong's 1997 outbreak.

They note that higher levels of CCL3, along with several other chemokines, have been found in plasma from people who died of H5N1 disease than in people who survived it.

Overall, the authors conclude, "These data suggest that host factors may influence the disease process or outcome."

The latest findings parallel evidence that Peiris and colleagues reported last November concerning the cytokine storm hypothesis. In that study, lung cells growing in a lab culture reacted much more intensely to two strains of H5N1 virus than to an ordinary human flu virus (see link below).

Zhou J, Law HKW, Cheung CY, et al. Differential expression of chemokines and their receptors in adult and neonatal macrophages infected with human or avian influenza viruses. J Infect Dis 2006 Jul 1;194:61-70 [Abstract]

See also:

Nov 16, 2005, CIDRAP News story "Lab study supports idea of 'cytokine storm' in H5N1 flu"

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2006 at 8:18am
figure'n it out, it is my understanding from all I've read up to date that it is the Echinacea in Sambucal that may increases production of cytokines. The reason; all these things you listed increase mucus!
The first discovery was that Elderberry killed 8 types of flu including the H5N1in canine cells.
If I am lucky and it kills it then I don't need to worry about complications.
Your list looks pretty good but one more that I know of is
Milk.
I know this to be a fact from living with other conditions but didn't realize it until I read it somewhere. I've been experimenting on myself now for about a year because I love milk.
I have Elderberry products (some homemade) and will use them in attempt to prevent. I would not recommend taking Sambucal after getting the flu.

One very important point I think needs to be brought out is that the "good" benefit from Elderberry comes from natural sugars which flush through the body in 6 hours. So, if I have to go out I will take it 20 minutes before leaving and  be back in less than 6 hours or re-dose!

All the things you have listed are on my list but milk should be there too. I think we should follow the list once a person has the flu. Until then some of these things may very well help prevent getting it and we can enjoy till we get sick.
I am a very big fan of Garlic. I just can't tell you how many times I believe it saved my life. I had pneumonia so many times one year that stopped doing x-rays at the emergency room and just prescribed drugs and sent me back to work. That was when I got so angry I started looking for self-help and I found Garlic.
I guess it's been about 15 years now since I've had bronchitics or pneumonia.
I strongly recommend Garlic. I'm not talking about a dust on toast. I'm talking enough to equable 5 gloves per day for an adult.

People need honey for instance. Not only does locally grown honey help my allergies but bacteria cannot grow under honey so I use it for burns and scrapes. It has healing powers and reduces pain.

We will be eating more fruits, grains and vegetables because they are alkaline and and there is much evidence that cancer cells cannot live in alkaline conditions and it's been questioned as to weather this virus can. I will avoid high acid foods.
Calcium reduces acid.

All of my information is from life experience and/or reading and research. The gathering comes from reliable sources but is not guaranteed. I am not telling anyone to do these things but these are things that I do or plan to do. Much of it is just common sense. Picture someone sitting on the side of a bed, with bf ....eating chocolate. Trust me they will scarcely know they are in the world. What we must do is not get it. And it may not be any one thing that does it but a combination. Meantime I just choose to be healthier.
Good luck to you and all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cathypeanut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2006 at 4:04pm
I thought sambucal was supposed to be good.  Too bad there is not more info.
I used to have more posts :-(
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jhetta Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 18 2006 at 4:20pm
Originally posted by cathypeanut cathypeanut wrote:

I thought sambucal was supposed to be good.  Too bad there is not more info.
 
There is more info... however I have found that when I post it... most people do not bother to read it... and instead stick to an opionon they have formed in the past!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 05 2006 at 11:12pm
Scientists in Hong Kong have reported new experimental evidence that avian influenza infections in human cells are more likely to trigger a destructive immune-system overreaction, or "cytokine storm," than human flu viruses are.
................................................................................................................
 
 
cytokine storm
.........................................
 
 
 
Peramivir
 
is a pharmaceutical drug used to viral infections. Like zanamivir and oseltamivir, peramivir is a neuraminidase inhibitor, acting as a transition-state analogue inhibitor of influenza neuraminidase and thereby preventing new viruses from emerging from infected cells.

Experimental data indicate that peramivir may have useful activity against many viruses of interest, including H5N1 (avian bird flu) , hepatitis B, polio, measles and smallpox. Peramivir is active in a hamster model of yellow fever, a finding which is not surprising, given the familial relationship of yellow fever and hepatitis C viruses as flaviviridae. Peramivir is active against other important flaviviridae such as West Nile virus and dengue fever.

"Dr. Frederick Heyden of the University of Virginia recently presented unpublished data suggesting that peramivir may have the potential for use as single dose parenteral treatment or prophylaxis for influenza (Infectious Diseases Society of America Annual Meeting, San Francisco, October 6-9, 2005). In a talk on the use of antiviral drugs in the setting of an influenza pandemic, Dr. Heydan presented unpublished animal data that suggests that, due to its very long half life, peramivir, an investigational neuraminaidase inhibitor drug, maintains its anti-influenza activity for as long as 10 days following a single intravenous dose." [...]

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During BF or any other epidemic or pandemic, we ae going to have concerns other then just the BF or whatever the virus is. If you get a bad cold it can go to bronchittis, or worse. If you have a cut it can become infected and that infection could go systemic. There is a place for all the alternatives, but cytokines is simply not one where we want to use other althernatives that cause even more cytokene production. If my baby had normal lungs and a immune system, I would give some of these to fight the cold. Or I may make a paste and put it on a cut. We are the responsible ones. I feel honored to be with all of you. WE care enough to know and find out. We need to find out  what will make our lives better even if there never is a BF outbreak, rather then worse. There are many situations where, traditional meds may not be availbale. You can grow Echinecia in your yard, pretty purple flowers, no one even knows to steal em. LOL  You get a twofer, pretty flowers and home grown meds. Make sure you know who can and can not take them, and what illness to use them for and what ones to not use. A willow tree is filled with pain meds. Study up, it is fun. Big%20smile

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jake1212 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 19 2012 at 9:58pm
Nice information jhetta. I was unaware regarding the same. It was really helpful for me to come across this post and read so much wonderful information. Thank you for sharing this guys.
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