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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Now tracking the Aussie Flu.

Pneumonia Vaccine to Survive BF?

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Mister_Dog View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 15 2006 at 9:53am
From what I have read, I have the impression the most common death mechanism from this flu is secondary pneumonia infection, that kicks off immediately when you get this H5N1 flu.

Therefore, my family and I are getting pneumonia vaccinations from our doc.    My theory is if we can fend off the pneumonia, it will increase our surivival odds.

Do you think this is a good idea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 10:19am

Yes. Other folks have posted information about the same.

Use the search feature in the upper right hand corner of this page to help.




Then the following should appear



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bruss01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 11:21am

YES - GET IT NOW!!!

This is the single most important precaution that can be taken.  If your Dr. will not give it to you, get it from a walk-in clinic, a corner "urgent care" place, or the county health department.  Lie, cheat, do whatever it takes but get this important vaccine for you and your family.  Yes it's really THAT BIG a deal.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willow41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 1:25pm
There is viral pneumonia and bacterial pneumonia.  The flu can cause viral pneumonia.  Flu patients usually die from this viral pneumonia.  The pneumonia vaccine is for bacterial pneumonia.  You can contract bacteria pneumonia when your recovering or after you've recovered from the flu, because your immune system has been compromised.  Therefore, the pneumonia vaccine will not protect you from the viral pneumonia that is killing most people that get this flu.  But, the vaccine will help prevent you from getting the bacteria pneumonia.  You are giving yourself a false sense of hope if you think the pneumonia vaccine will prevent you from dying from the H5N1 flu, but it can still help with bacterial pneumonia.  Talk with your doctors about this, and do more research on it to get a better understanding. I've talked to a couple different doctors about this, because it was confusing to me also.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mister_Dog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 4:47pm
Bruss, why is the vaccine so important if what willow says is true?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 5:08pm

Because Willow is making a blanket statement about a virus no one knows an awful lot about. 

 

First, SOME of the people who've died have been in hospital for well over a week. I haven't kept a tally, as the reports sometimes don't say, but have noticed some reports where the admittance date and death date was FAR TOO long to be either a cytokine storm OR viral pneumonia.

Second, a good search of the two forms of pneumonia will show that viral is considered FAR LESS harmful and can resolve itself in some/most cases.

Third, the alarmingly quick deaths of SOME(not all, as some die much slower)  of the BF victims points to the cytokine storm and not viral pneumonia.    

 

As a matter of fact, I've yet to see definitive proof or even strong speculation that viral pneumonia is the prime cause of death in BF. My searching and the info others have posted on this board, not to mention the ages of the dead, ALL POINT TO A CYTOKINE STORM.  THAT is thought to be THE CAUSE of most deaths from BF.

As for the others, who die much much slower (one in Indonesia I saw in a report took well over two weeks) makes me think these long suffering deaths are from pneumonia, and I would  hazard a guess that it is NOT viral.

And in closing, Albert posted in another thread some medical reports that this vaccine alleviates the severity and duration of viral pneumonias also.

And this shot also protects from sepsis (blood poisoning) and bacterial meningitis.....

The reason me and my family are getting ours tomorrow is SIMPLE: We plan on taking anti inflammatory natural rememdies to suppress those cytokines, and my son's inhalers (inhaled steroids) if needed, which will hopefully reduce our risk of a cytokine storm, but will leave us open to bacterial infections.......hence the vaccine.  We are trying to cover all our bases as best as possible, and leave the rest up to God. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willow41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 5:15pm

Mister Dog- the vaccine will protect you from bacterial pneumonia, which you could get after you've recovered from the flu.  your immune system will not be as strong because you had the flu, therefore you have greater odds of getting bacterial pneumonia.  bacterial pneumonia is what most people get when they say they have pneumonia. so the vaccine is still something you should get, if you can get it for this reason. 

Basically if you get H5N1 and survive, you don't want to get bacterial pneumonia afterwards. 

I highly recommend talking to your doctor about viral/bacterial pneumonia and the pneumonia vaccine so you will have a really good understanding of it all.

 

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willow41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 5:24pm

Marzinn - talk to your doctor.  viral infections can last for several weeks, including viral pneumonia.  I'm not saying that you shouldn't get the pneumonia vaccine to prevent bacterial pneumonia.  I too have been trying to find somewhere to get shots for my family.  But, it's not a good idea for people to think that this pneumonia vaccine will prevent them from dying from H5N1, if it were that simple the government would instruct everyone to get the pneumonia vaccine. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2006 at 9:09pm

What Willow is saying is that the avian flu virus causes chest congestion, cytokine storm etc. that affects breathing, hence "viral pneumonia". This vaccine (Pneumovax 23) does not have anything to do with flu-caused pneumonia. That's correct. The chest infection of flu virus CAN be fatal in and of itself because it compromises your ability to breathe.  Not much can be done about that except tamiflu.

I'm sorry - I didn't elaborate in my earlier post because I thought the information was out there enough that most were already informed regarding bacterial pneumonia.

Super strains of influenza weaken the protective lining of the lungs.

The weakened linings have greatly compromised resistance to normal "everyday" bacteria, such as pneumonia bacteria.

Many people who survived the 1918 influenza, died of (we presume bacterial) pneumonia up to two weeks after having fully recovered from the flu (see The Great Influenza by John M. Barry for details).  This appeared in most cases to have been a separate, secondary infection. It is estimated that up to 75% of the people who died in the influenza outbreak in 1918 actually died of pneumonia rather than of the influenza virus itself.

If I can take a shot that reduces my risk of death by 75%, I consider that a whopping good investment.  Yes, this shot offers no protection against viral pneumonia, specifically that caused by the avian influenza virus, but it does cover 23 strains of bacterial pneumonia.  I'm convinced that there's no bigger bang for your prepping dollar than obtaining this important vaccination.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2006 at 3:30pm

Does anyone know for sure how long the shot lasts?  I read 10 years last year.  Then recently "for at least  five years, possibly for life". 

I had one about 10 years ago.  I would rather spend the money on getting shots for my children, especially if mine is likely to last.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2006 at 4:11pm
Beth, I have heard they are good for about 10 years, some people have said closer to 5.  Wish I had a better answer for you.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote willow41 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2006 at 4:21pm
I would talk to your doctor about it to make sure.  My doctor said that the vaccine lasts for a lifetime, BUT once you turn 65 they encourage you to get another one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 16 2006 at 6:17pm
Originally posted by bruss01 bruss01 wrote:

If I can take a shot that reduces my risk of death by 75%, I consider that a whopping good investment.  Yes, this shot offers no protection against viral pneumonia, specifically that caused by the avian influenza virus, but it does cover 23 strains of bacterial pneumonia.  I'm convinced that there's no bigger bang for your prepping dollar than obtaining this important vaccination.

 

Thanks for those words, Bruss. We (23yr. old, 14 yr. old and I ) got our shots today.  THEY are doing FINE, I feel like all heck!

Got a  headache, arm hurts like all heck,  and feel feverish.  I was questioning the wisdom of this vaccine, and wishing I hadn't gotten one........till I read your post.  I'll deal with the sore arm, fever and headache . After reading what you wrote, I guess feeling like this is a small price.

 

BTW, I had to LIE my backside off to get the State Health Dept. to give it to us, and then had to wait a week for the vaccines to come in as they didn't have any on hand.   They were free, though......which was great as I've read some people have to pay alot to get them.

Hubby has insurance (we dont) and is getting his from his Doctor in two weeks.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote flick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 5:30am

Marzinn:

I have one family member who does not have his pnuemovax yet and I'm getting the run around because he is perfectly healthy.

What's the right dialogue to get the dr. to cough up a vaccine?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 5:46am
We cannot get them here in Canada..they have tight rules about who gets what...and since the kids and I are very healthy..got told last blood samples i was healthier then a horse(well other then waiting for surgery) thats why the blood tests)...but anyways..my doc would proabaly laugh me out of his room if I asked for the pneumonia shot...and getting anything like Tamiflu up here..well now way the drug companies up here prefer to sell online to the USA..they make more money that way...not that is a bad thing..I am glad that you guys can get it to help protect your families...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 6:41am

Muskrat -

Some of the downsides of having a public, rather than a private health system.  In a private health system, the patient is a "customer" and money talks.  In a public health system, care is rationed as the system sees fit because everybody is paying into the system, and supposedly no one gets special treatment.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by flick flick wrote:

Marzinn:

I have one family member who does not have his pnuemovax yet and I'm getting the run around because he is perfectly healthy.

What's the right dialogue to get the dr. to cough up a vaccine?

Flick,

                                   To be honest......I lied.  Our state's health center wouldn't give it to us either. So, I made up illnesses. Luckily they didn't ask for verification. Now, my hubby really does have chronic bronchitis, so his doc is giving him his in two weeks, but my son, who REALLY does have ashtma, didn't even qualify, per the CDC guidelines, for this shot.........so, I "gave" him Lyme disease. (Asthma is "excepted" in the CDC guidelines  though some places will accept it as a "risk" group for this shot...).  Here in Pennsylvania Lyme is quite prevalent, so it seemed like a likely choice.  After talking the nurse into giving us the shot at the state health center, I asked how much it cost, prepared to pay an arm and a leg if need be.......she said the shots were free.  I am so grateful  that we were able to get this shot, the fact that they were free was an added blessing.

 

BTW, yesterday I felt SO awful, and was wishing i hadn't gotten the shot...but today I feel WONDERFUL.  Arm doesn't hurt at all, and the nausea and headache are gone.  I only felt bad for less than a day, as I got the shot at 2pm yesterday, felt awful the whole night, and woke up this morning feeling great.   It was a small price to pay.   My 23 yr. old's arm still hurts a bit, but she was able to go to work this morning. My 14 yr. old son, had a panic attack yesterday due to his fear of needles ( suffered through a traumatic illness as a small child and had to have blood taken weekly), but once I calmed him down, all he had was a sore arm that was relieved by Tylenol and no fever to speak of. This morning he says he feels very very little soreness. Seems I got the worst of it.

Still, the shot is worth it. I encourage all to get it if they can. Even if BF never  pans out, pneumonia kills!!! A few of the people who died of pneumonia in BF infected regions later turned out negative, they just had penumonia. Also, viral vs. bacterial pneumonia - NOT BF related - clearly shows bacterial pneumonia is deadly, whereas viral pneumonia (not BF related) often resolves without treatment  or in severe cases, with only supportive treatment (i.e. iv fluids).  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sierra779 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 5:09pm

Hi,

New to all of this...thanks for all the great posts!

Hubby and I went in today and got the shots...we were told that they are good for seven years and that we need another one at that time.

I thought they were good for life but might need a booster due to age. They told us nope...every 7 years...

Sierra

living in the hot desert, CA.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rainla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 5:12pm
I was able to get one for my almost 4-year old son by actually telling the truth (lol I was prepared to have to fib if needed). I told the nurse that my mother is terminally ill and that the little one would be in and out of hospitals and later the hospice for the next several months. The nurse thought that it was a good idea to get him protected.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Penham Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2006 at 5:57pm
When I took my 10 year old in a couple of weeks ago, she has asthma and has been hospitalized for pneumonia in the past and the doctor did not want to give it to her. We went back and forth a bit about the ashtma and I finally said: look I have been doing some personal research on the H5N1 virus and watching how it is developing for several months, it is now in 30+ countries, can be transmitted to mammals, etc. etc. and said I just wanted her to have some added protection against pneumonia since most people were dying from the secondary infection of pneumonia. He then said "OK" and we got it for her. He did explain the differences between the bacterial and viral pneumonia also talked about Hanta virus and Mennengitis. Her arm was sore for a couple of days. Hubby got his pnuemonia vaccine at his regular physical, just asked saying he works with people with compromised immune systems (he's a drug/alcohol counselor) and they gave it to him without any questions. I go Monday to get mine, I have already been told over the phone I could get one. Adult daughter in CA went to get one on the military base and was told no, so she is coming home for spring break and has asked me to make her an appt to get one. Other adult daughter has an appt next week and the 2 grandchildren have an appt on the 28th. I hope the 28th is not to late, I am kind of guessing that once the government releases it's "new plan" that was referred to on ABC tonight that all the medical workers and essential personel will be getting pneumonia vaccines and I am hoping there is not a shortage.
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