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Get a Grip everyone

Printed From: Avian Flu Talk
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Forum Name: Talk about anything
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URL: http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=32513
Printed Date: April 25 2024 at 10:22am


Topic: Get a Grip everyone
Posted By: Kilt2
Subject: Get a Grip everyone
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 4:14pm
By Michaeleen Doucleff

Holy moly! There’s a case of Ebola in the U.S.!

That first reaction was understandable. There’s no question the disease is scary. The World Health Organization now  http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1411100 - estimates  that the virus has killed about 70 percent of people infected in West Africa.

The Ebola case in Dallas is the first one diagnosed outside Africa, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention said Tuesday. And the health care system in Texas didn’t quarantine the man right away. He was sick with  http://www.npr.org/tags/147820238/ebola - Ebola  — and contagious — for four days before he was admitted to the hospital.

But when you look at health officials responding to the case in Dallas, they seem cool as cucumbers, despite the initial misstep.

“I have no doubt that we will control this importation, or case, of Ebola so that it does not spread widely in this country,”  http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/2014/09/30/352815781/first-u-s-case-of-ebola-confirmed-in-dallas - said  the director of the CDC, Dr. Tom Frieden.

Why is Frieden so sure this virus won’t spread beyond a handful of cases?

It boils down to something called “ http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8261248 - R0 .”


https://richarddawkins.net/2014/10/no-seriously-how-contagious-is-ebola/



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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.



Replies:
Posted By: ENTROPY
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 5:35pm
PLEASE GIVE US YOUR REAL ACTUAL NAME...JJD...

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EYE in the SKY


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 5:39pm
If no secondary cases of Ebola turn up in Dallas, it's because Duncan knew before he landed that he had it.
Ebola didn't magically become hard to catch.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 5:57pm
The RO is 2

pffft get a grip for god's sake

The Africans wash the corpse of the dead family member and then the rest of the family drink the water - so Ebola spreads.

The RO is 2 - its hard to catch for people who do not do strange things with the body.




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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: nc_girl
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 6:17pm
and yet Kilt, others have caught it by simply touching their face (Spain) or getting splashed (NBC camerman) or touching an arm (Bentley), etc.???



Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 6:20pm
Originally posted by Kilt2 Kilt2 wrote:

The RO is 2

pffft get a grip for god's sake

The Africans wash the corpse of the dead family member and then the rest of the family drink the water - so Ebola spreads.

The RO is 2 - its hard to catch for people who do not do strange things with the body.



First wave of the Spanish flu was 1.8
What's your point?

FYI, mourners eat and drink from common cup and bowl, as many cultures do.
What is your information source for drinking corpse run-off?
I have never heard of that.

Oh yeah, and Ebola is still contagious, regardless of how well Mr. Duncan may have kept it to himself.

pffftt back at ya.


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 6:21pm
Originally posted by ENTROPY ENTROPY wrote:

PLEASE GIVE US YOUR REAL ACTUAL NAME...JJD...


The reason we use the names we do is because most of us are preppers, and the smart ones do it under the radar. You don't your neighbors to know that you have the supplies they need in an emergency.
Anonymity is respected here.




-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 7:12pm
Get a grip Ebola is not that contagious.

All the hysteria about it is over reach. Its lies. The flu is the real deal

https://richarddawkins.net/2014/10/no-seriously-how-contagious-is-ebola/




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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 7:18pm
Originally posted by nc_girl nc_girl wrote:

and yet Kilt, others have caught it by simply touching their face (Spain) or getting splashed (NBC camerman) or touching an arm (Bentley), etc.???


Sure - of course.

But only when the person was sick or dead.

If this bug infected others before symptoms it would be a global killer but it doesn't.

Its like SARS - only when symptomatic - but don't wash the body and then drink the water.

Its a mess sure - because people do stupid things but its a storm in a tea cup


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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 7:46pm
A Chinese tea cup?

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 7:50pm

can anybody say when an ebola pt becomes contagious ???


eg

the experts and MSM keep repeating that unless your running a fever your not contagious

38.6 centigrade is the # used


so at noon I don't have a temp and am not contagious?

but at 1pm I spike a fever so presto chango now I can spread it ?

and I wasn't spreading it at noon or 11:30 ???


does that even make sense?

but that is what we are being told


sorry

I've got a good imagination

but it's not that damn good


something ain't right here



Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 8:28pm
Kilt- You may be right or you maybe completely wrong about China, but on this subject I'm 100% in your corner! There has only been one (1) death from Ebola in the U.S. and it was an imported case! I'm considering buying stock in Reynold's Aluminum and Norcross hip waders! The misinformation and conspiracy theories are getting hip deep around here! Everyone needs to chill! Speculation and stories about suspected cases are not helpful!

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: Jen147
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 9:34pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

can anybody say when an ebola pt becomes contagious ???


eg

the experts and MSM keep repeating that unless your running a fever your not contagious

38.6 centigrade is the # used


so at noon I don't have a temp and am not contagious?

but at 1pm I spike a fever so presto chango now I can spread it ?

and I wasn't spreading it at noon or 11:30 ???


does that even make sense?

but that is what we are being told


sorry

I've got a good imagination

but it's not that damn good


something ain't right here

 
Really good point.  What's is the official temp have to be to be considered a fever?  My daughter's pediatrician won't consider anything under 100.4 a fever.  She's 10 so I'm sure he's different for infants or toddlers.  But what if your temp is 99... is that a fever?  Most people don't know what their baseline is, no one takes their temp when they aren't sick.


Posted By: Prairie One
Date Posted: October 09 2014 at 9:36pm
Originally posted by arirish arirish wrote:

Kilt- You may be right or you maybe completely wrong about China, but on this subject I'm 100% in your corner! There has only been one (1) death from Ebola in the U.S. and it was an imported case! I'm considering buying stock in Reynold's Aluminum and Norcross hip waders! The misinformation and conspiracy theories are getting hip deep around here! Everyone needs to chill! Speculation and stories about suspected cases are not helpful!


I agree. I'm with you on this one Kilt.

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Interested....


Posted By: ParanoidMom
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 4:55am
Yep. One imported case and the entire event was handled like a monkey with a football.   Patient died. Exposure to paramedics and law enforcement, along with quite a few others. If we learn absolutely nothing else, we certainly now know we aren't nearly as prepared as a nation as we thought we were.

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But the souls of the righteous are in the hand of the Lord
Wisdom of Solomon 3:1


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 5:35am


Factors determining the altered spread (or not) of the virus are directly dependant on human activity. Will we contain it in W Africa? Will we see imports in other countries? That depends on us.

That it did not result in more Dallas cases after the screw ups, is due to human activity (interpersonal contacts, contact tracing and containment measures), and a lot of luck.

The virus is still contagious, still spreading, and still has a very high CFR. 
.....................................................................................................

You guys are entitled to opinions, but if I see another prejudicial comment about corpse-water drinking being presented as fact - I will delete it.








Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 10 2014 at 6:03am
If the effected region goes total ebola then we can expect another 2,500 Duncans. If all of Africa goes Ebola then we can expect another 150,000. This of course is a very rudimentary calculation. It could be much lower or much higher but you get the picture. In any case there will be many more duncans to come.

The water comment was, uh, tasteless.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 4:04pm
One person infected has infected one other.

Let us not get carried away - this virus is nowhere near as bad as Influenza.

They will screen people coming in from Africa and stop it in the US.

Flu is the one we should worry about.


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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 4:24pm
Kilt2,

One person infected is currently infecting 2 people, that is exponential.

Screening incoming flights involves temperature checks. Currently 80-90% infected have fevers. Those who do have fevers can take Tylenol.

I do not gamble. If I did, I'd be betting on Ebola.

That said, I am not a fear monger . I do believe the world can stop this... But the only way we're going to stop it is by facing the hard truths and using science to counter them. Downplaying the risk can only cause harm at this point.


Posted By: wenmalon
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 4:27pm
I agree get a grip. Wow what a bunch of chicken littles. 

If you are going to post something make sure irs true. This is not a race to see who can have the most posts or the fastest to pst something new.

It was posted that Duncan was dead before he actually was. Isn't there a gate keeper here? Just one example.

The rate of people dying from heart disease in this country is exponentially higher than Ebola. Just sayin.

Being paranoid chicken littles is the last thing we need. People stopped listening to chicken little remember.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 4:40pm
wenmalon,

Yes, in North America, more people have died of heart disease than Ebola.

Heart disease is not contagious, Ebola is.

Do I need to elaborate?


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 4:42pm
Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

wenmalon,

Yes, in North America, more people have died of heart disease than Ebola.

Heart disease is not contagious, Ebola is.

Do I need to elaborate?
Well said!


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: wenmalon
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:12pm
Yes it is contagious. However heart disease still kills more people at a much more alarming rate.

My point is yes we need to be aware but all of these possible cases and little scares is going to cause a chicken little response. Why can't just actual cases be reported? Too much info to sift through.

Unfortunately inaccurate reporting and bad info is doubly contagious.

We need to keep our heads not lose it. Contagious or not.


Posted By: Kyle
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:15pm
I in fact like the suspected cases to be reported. Still is informational to me. You don't like what you see don't read it, pretty simple... The site isn't all about you.


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:23pm
You both have a point.  It is a pain to have to sift through all the unconfirmed reports only to find that they are negative, but by the same token, when one does prove positive it is nice to have been the first to know.  That could be a vital bit of information if you are resident nearby.

If anyone has a good idea about how to highlight the difference so we could see at a glance, please post it.  Then we can please everyone.


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: wenmalon
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:31pm
Kyle. You are right. Too much fiction. I will leave.


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:41pm
Whoa wenmalon!  That is not necessary.  We do get to the truth as soon as it is available. Give us a chance buddy.  We do like to be first, but we like to be accurate too.


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 5:54pm
All wenmalon was doing was trying to put things into perspective. I agree with wenmalon in that we don't need to be in panic mode but so much on here is not confirmed and suspected cases it's just going to put people on edge more. There is so much info on here and difficult to sort through the piles of suspected or unconfirmed cases. Why get alarmed for nothing. The Spanish nurse was reported dead a couple times on here. That is not accurate.

Why clobber and gang up on wenmalon as the person had valid points. The condescending remarks towards wenmalon were not necessary either. Don't blame he or she for leaving!


Posted By: Jen147
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 6:01pm
Originally posted by wenmalon wenmalon wrote:

I agree get a grip. Wow what a bunch of chicken littles. 

If you are going to post something make sure irs true. This is not a race to see who can have the most posts or the fastest to pst something new.

It was posted that Duncan was dead before he actually was. Isn't there a gate keeper here? Just one example.

The rate of people dying from heart disease in this country is exponentially higher than Ebola. Just sayin.

Being paranoid chicken littles is the last thing we need. People stopped listening to chicken little remember.
 
wenmalon, I edited your post.  I hope you understand.  You said what you wanted with truth & facts on your side no need in calling any members out by name.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 6:05pm
No one is blaming anyone for being here or leaving.
You guys are right.. There is more harm done with false information and media hype. Right now it is difficult to know what is true and what is not.

That is why we are here. We are a collection of regular people from around the world who want to know the truth.
Stay, and help everyone to know what that truth is.


Posted By: Kyle
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 6:08pm
By no means are the suspected cases I post labeled as confirmed. I'm simply stating the suspected cases I find I post because it is vital information regarding a possible exposure. Sure most of them do end up being negative but I'd rather know ahead of mainstream media.


Posted By: Jen147
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 6:09pm
I personally like the reports also.  I know that usually within a few posts someone will have either confirmed the suspected case or given report that it was negative.  It only takes a few seconds to scroll down & see.  One thing to consider... a journalist is NOT supposed to jump on a story just to be first with little to no evidence.  They would be fired in a minute when it turns out to be false.  A good source is a journalist best friend.  But we are not journalists here.  The members here are messengers.  Work long hours researching news & posting with the intent to inform others.  That's my take anyway.  I am not a closed minded person though so I love hearing other people's points of view on it.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 7:49pm
Originally posted by Guest Guest wrote:

All wenmalon was doing was trying to put things into perspective. I agree with wenmalon in that we don't need to be in panic mode but so much on here is not confirmed and suspected cases it's just going to put people on edge more. There is so much info on here and difficult to sort through the piles of suspected or unconfirmed cases. Why get alarmed for nothing. The Spanish nurse was reported dead a couple times on here. That is not accurate.

Why clobber and gang up on wenmalon as the person had valid points. The condescending remarks towards wenmalon were not necessary either. Don't blame he or she for leaving!


Hello wenmalon. Nice try. We just had a discussion about this. It's one reason all of our ip's are listed. Anyways...

Ebola is not the sky nor are we chickens. This is not a cartoon parody. Ebola is a real virus with ~90% CFR and it IS spreading alarmingly to say the least. If not stopped somehow, as sure as the sun sets it will encircle the globe. This is much more than just a fear. One way we, as the people on the street can keep track of it's spread is to find and post each and every last known case out of Africa including every case that later turns out to be a false alarm as they are only false alarms after their innitial discovery. Like Duncan, his nurse, the Spanish nurse and others, some of them proved not to be false alarms. We cannot toss them out as well in the name of not cluttering the board. To do so means we may as well turn off the computers and watch cartoons while this disease slowly creeps up on us...

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Penham
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 7:50pm
It actually is news, the news stations/reports are reporting "suspected cases", the people here are just reporting what's out there. Yes, it maybe found a few hours later that it was a false report from a news update. I would still rather know.


Posted By: Penham
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 7:53pm
Yes, the mods can see the IP you are posting from, it is highly discouraged to be posting under 2 different people. It can be grounds for termination of an account. However there are also some circumstances to be taken into account, such as two people possibly living in the same household using the same computer.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:06pm
Look we have been through hype of one kind of flu or another. Ebola is no different however...most of us who prep are not prepped for this Bad Boy. I am getting ready just in case as all of you should be doing. If a nurse can't follow protocol how are regular people going to deal with this if the hospitals fill up or nurses and drs walk off to save their own lives like in Africa.

I pray that Ebola does not become wide spread here in the U.S. but at least I want my son to have a fighting chance to live just in case. So I prep now for Ebola. Will take me another week but I will have all the PPE for having to go out to get water and supplies if needed.

I suggest we get a grip and get prepped.


Posted By: Kyle
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:18pm
Excellent point flumom. Last year during the whole H7N9 and MERS outbreaks a lot of family thought I was nuts for always tracking this type of stuff. Now they rely on me to tell them the latest on Ebola. They finally realized that a global pandemic can and will happen at any moment whether it be Ebola, MERS, or some other new avian influenza.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:29pm
Ebola is NOTHING compared with Flu.

4,000 people have died of Ebola and its no problem.

Sure a couple of others have got infected.

So?

Its not a problem

Get a bloody grip


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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:40pm
Kilt2,

If everyone in the world thought as you do, Ebola would have taken you out already.

Be thankful if you get the flu. That'll be a cakewalk.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:41pm
4000 have died.... so far.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 8:51pm
Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

4000 have died.... so far.


Now let's all take our eyes off of that number as it continues to rise and rise and rise and let's go over and help make that other noted number rise and rise and rise.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 9:08pm
Ebola is NOTHING compared to the flu.

Mostly because it doesn't shed without symptoms - unlike the Flu.

The reasons the Africans die is because when someone dies they wash the body and then the whole family drinks the water.

When they come out of the stone age and stop that sort of behaviour, Ebola will not be such a problem there.

You are like Chicken Liken - this is nothing compared to the flu - and it will be soon stopped.

Get a grip for gods sake you girl.


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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Jen147
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 9:31pm
Chill out Kilt2.  You can repeat "get a grip" all you want but can't you be a little nicer about it.  Everyone one of those 4000+ didn't wash a dead body.  Neither have the few who've gotten it outside of W. Africa.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 9:35pm
Chicken Liken?

I don't get it.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Elver
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 10:18pm
Get a Grip?

Perhaps you can't fathom just how dangerous this Ebola is to the entire world's population. Until you do, you have no idea what we're dealing with.


Posted By: Prairie One
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 11:33pm
I've had disagreements with Kilt in the past and disagreed strongly with his world view but it this case he is spot on.
Everyone needs to take deep breath. This is NOT the big one.

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Interested....


Posted By: Elver
Date Posted: October 12 2014 at 11:38pm
Originally posted by Prairie One Prairie One wrote:

I've had disagreements with Kilt in the past and disagreed strongly with his world view but it this case he is spot on.
Everyone needs to take deep breath. This is NOT the big one.


I'm actually holding my breath at this point in time. This is really serious.

"American experts warn that the lethal Ebola virus could reach China in three weeks and from there spread to Hong Kong and Macau, reports our Chinese-language sister paper Want Daily."

"The experts with the Northeast University in Boston made the report after cross referencing data between airline routes around the world and Ebola's route of transmission."

http://www.wantchinatimes.com/news-subclass-cnt.aspx?id=20141009000116&cid=1103



Posted By: Prairie One
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:02am
You're looking for ghosts behind doors. This isn't the big one.

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Interested....


Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:06am
It may not be, but it surely could cause a lot of disruptions and grief..

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Long time lurker since day one to Member.


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 6:09am
Just like the suspected cases, we do not know yet. 

So far ebola has been a big problem in West Africa only and just a tiny one elsewhere.  But, we do not know what it will do next.  It should be a flu that endangers the whole globe, but no one told ebola that and to date it has broken through all attempts to stop it.

So, just like the suspected cases we must wait and see.


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: Elver
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 10:31am
Originally posted by Prairie One Prairie One wrote:

You're looking for ghosts behind doors. This isn't the big one.


You're wrong. This may actually be the big one. World wide travel will see that it spreads. When it gets into a country like India or a crowded city like Beijing, there will be no stopping it.

Recently, 80 people returned to India. What if just one of them returns with Ebola?

The Chinese do a lot of business in Africa and have more flights out of there than we do. Stop and think about that for a moment. How would the Chinese fare when most of them wash their clothes in the sink or bathtub? They don't own washers and dryers like we do. How do you think they could even afford to go to the doctor?

Do you have any idea why the Chinese dumped their dead pigs into the river? It's because they don't own farm equipment! If farms can't afford to buy something to dig a hole big enough to bury dead pigs in, just how do you suppose they can afford to see a doctor? An average person in China will infect his whole family and it will spread outward from there.

This wildfire will spread given enough time. Ebola is totally out of control in Africa and they have no will to shut down the borders and let it burn itself out.


Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 10:40am
It's the big one, Elizabeth!

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 11:00am
I agree with Techno and Elver.

It was never about what Ebola has done so far, but about what Ebola has the potential to do.

You buy home insurance because of the potential for your house to catch fire, not because it has already or definitely will do so in the future. You also expect your neighbour to be vigilant, because his house fire can spread to yours if you live close together.

Ebola has the potential to spread around the globe because people are mobile and because they congregate close together in cities. It doesn't need to be as easily spread as the flu to do as much damage or more.
One person in a hundred thousand infected might die from Influenza. If the same number of people contract Ebola, it's a small city wiped out.

It has devastated W Africa, pushing 3 countries toward collapse and threatening to become endemic. Once that happens, we will never be rid of pandemic threat from Ebola. That's not fear mongering. That's FACT.

Quite frankly, it's insulting the intelligence of every person here to suggest flu, heart disease or stroke are more of a concern right now.


Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 11:27am
GN- You are talking run of the mill flu, we're talking a novel pandemic flu and we can use the same argument! What does it have the potential to do? The 1918 influenza pandemic killed 25 million people in the first 25 weeks!

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: coyote
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 11:40am
Hi Arrish..Hope I,m wrong and I am not fear mongering but I tend to agree with Elver, Techno, and Germ nerd on this..I feel that this Ebola is a slow moving train wreck in progress.

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Long time lurker since day one to Member.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 11:44am
arirish,

Who was talking novel pandemic flu? I was responding to comments like "flu kills X number per year, heart disease..." etc. in some members' arguments that more people die yearly than all of Ebola's victims to date.
My point was that those statistics are not a valid argument when discussing disease /endemic/pandemic potential.

Without a crystal ball we MUST look at potential, and at this time Ebola has more potential for fatalities and social disruption than a novel flu we are not currently dealing with.

We're you referring to a specific emerging novel flu?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 11:55am
coyote: "slow moving train wreck"

I love that analogy.


Posted By: Suzi
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:04pm
https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrTcYHSIDxUxeIA7vaJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZ2VrNTgzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyZmY2NDg0MWE1NTczNmU5MmRlMWM5NjE5ZmE5ZGNhYwRncG9zAzI2BGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dslums%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bworld%26fr%3Dslv1-linksys%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D26&w=1024&h=768&imgurl=urbahead.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F05%2F54637141_ee0ec50f7c_b.jpeg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skyscrapercity.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D1449843%26page%3D3&size=612.1KB&name=Worst+%3Cb%3Eslums%3C%2Fb%3E+in+America.....third+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E+or+western+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E%3F&p=slums+of+the+world&oid=2ff64841a55736e92de1c9619fa9dcac&fr2=&fr=slv1-linksys&tt=Worst+%3Cb%3Eslums%3C%2Fb%3E+in+America.....third+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E+or+western+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E%3F&b=0&ni=160&no=26&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11tf8r5ao&sigb=13lria6ib&sigi=11vfkakv7&sigt=12dbgpv60&sign=12dbgpv60&.crumb=S35166jE90V&fr=slv1-linksys - https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrTcYHSIDxUxeIA7vaJzbkF;_ylu=X3oDMTIzZ2VrNTgzBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMyZmY2NDg0MWE1NTczNmU5MmRlMWM5NjE5ZmE5ZGNhYwRncG9zAzI2BGl0A2Jpbmc-?back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3F_adv_prop%3Dimage%26va%3Dslums%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bworld%26fr%3Dslv1-linksys%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D26&w=1024&h=768&imgurl=urbahead.files.wordpress.com%2F2011%2F05%2F54637141_ee0ec50f7c_b.jpeg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.skyscrapercity.com%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D1449843%26page%3D3&size=612.1KB&name=Worst+%3Cb%3Eslums%3C%2Fb%3E+in+America.....third+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E+or+western+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E%3F&p=slums+of+the+world&oid=2ff64841a55736e92de1c9619fa9dcac&fr2=&fr=slv1-linksys&tt=Worst+%3Cb%3Eslums%3C%2Fb%3E+in+America.....third+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E+or+western+%3Cb%3Eworld%3C%2Fb%3E%3F&b=0&ni=160&no=26&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=11tf8r5ao&sigb=13lria6ib&sigi=11vfkakv7&sigt=12dbgpv60&sign=12dbgpv60&.crumb=S35166jE90V&fr=slv1-linksys

How will it work here?


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:13pm
I was just talking with WillobyBrat and both he and I think this has the potential to be the big one.  It is not guaranteed to become it.  It realy should not be able to.  It is not fully airborne and does not have the potential to go that way easily.  So many other diseases seemed to have more pandemic potential.  Once again no one told ebola this.

I don't remember who said it, but someone here compared it and the flu, as being like:  "dodging the car and the van only to be run over by an elephant".  Ebola is just not contagious enough to be the big risk.  If you had said a year ago ebola is the big threat I would have laughed!  It is not so funny now.  I think it is unstopable already. 

Two things still have to be decided.

1, How long will it take to escape from Africa?  I do not mean a few cases in which the chain is broken.  I mean really escape.
2, How long till we get an effective vaccine or treatment? 

The order of the answers determine our fate.


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:15pm
*ahem*  Ebola is already a historic outbreak, it is certainly a "big one." 

If you folks are waiting for a walking-dead type of pandemic, I don't see that occurring, regardless of agent. Significant mortality, but not Spanish Flu type numbers.  
  
Ebola is very likely to spread across Africa, which would make it the "big one" for millions of people.  If it jumps to another crowded, poor tropical country (India), it would be an even bigger disaster than it is.




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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:33pm
Techno,

I think so too (we can't stop it), but I'm trying to avoid speaking in absolutes for the sake of this discussion.

But yes, US aid of 1700 beds by mid Nov (plus whatever other number they already have) will not make much difference to 40,000 -50,000 cases total with 30,000 active when that time comes.
It doesn't make sense to even try, but for buying the world time to produce vaccines. It's not something many would say aloud, but you have to suspect that's what people are thinking.


Posted By: KiwiMum
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 12:43pm
What has surprised me is how badly the western world has handled the couple of cases that have come their way. America devoted a whole 25 bed unit and 30 staff members to deal with one case and still someone else has caught it. What will happen if they get a handful of cases?

Spain has also done badly. I'm not surprised that so many health workers in Africa have caught it, they have far worse facilities and equipment. I was just expecting the West to deal with it more effectively. 

It has concerned me for some time that we have moved away from re-usable medical equipment and towards fully disposable stuff. I'd like to know how much disposable waste Thomas Duncan's medical care generated? Is that sustainable. 30 staff members with goggles, masks, overalls, gloves etc etc.

Are there enough disposable masks et al in the whole of America to deal with 100 people having Ebola?


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Those who got it wrong, for whatever reason, may feel defensive and retrench into a position that doesn’t accord with the facts.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:00pm
Good points Kiwi.

Enough stress on any system will cause it to fail eventually. As robust as western healthcare is, it too will have a breaking point.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:02pm
CRS, not if but when.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:03pm
State: Don't bring waste from Ebola victim's personal items here

WWLTV.com 2:28 p.m. CDT October 13 2014

BATON ROUGE, La. - State Attorney General Buddy Caldwell is seeking a temporary restraining order to block the disposal of incinerated waste from the Dallas Ebola victim's personal items and belongings at a Louisiana landfill.

It has been reported that six truckloads of potential Ebola contaminated material collected from the apartment where the Dallas Ebola victim became ill were brought to Port Arthur, Texas on Friday to be processed at the Veolia Environmental Services incinerator. From there the incinerated material is slated to be transported to a hazardous waste landfill in Louisiana for final disposal.

Caldwell said the unknowns involved surrounding the Ebola virus have the state wanting to proceed with caution.

"We certainly share sadness and compassion for those who have lost their lives and loved ones to this terrible virus, but the health and safety of our Louisiana citizens is our top priority," he said. "There are too many unknowns at this point, and it is absurd to transport potentially hazardous Ebola waste across state lines.This situation is certainly unprecedented and we want to approach it with the utmost caution. We just can't afford to take any risks when it comes to this deadly virus."

The Louisiana Attorney General's Office said it is in the process of finalizing the application for temporary restraining order and expects it to be filed as early as Monday morning. Additionally, the office is sending a demand letter to Texas state and federal officials, along with private contractors involved seeking additional information into the handling of this waste. Caldwell's office is in contact with Louisiana health and environmental agencies involved in the matter.

http://www.google.com/gwt/x?u=http://www.wwltv.com/story/news/health/2014/10/12/ebola-personal-waste/17173221/&ei=fC88VJTJM7OBsAL2voHgDA&wsc=oa



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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Jen147
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:05pm
Good one, oneflu.  I would have posted that in a new thread so it doesn't get lost.  Several people have asked about where the waste is going.


Posted By: onefluover
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 1:26pm
A fisherman goes to a pond and in one 24 hour period catches over a hundred one pound blu-gill. The same man then goes out on a 24 hour ocean fishing trip and catches one sea bass weighing 100 pounds.

Kind of like that.

2 people dead out of a hundred infected of Spanish Flu. 90 people dead out of 100 infected with Ebola. Ebola is not moving at 1/45 the speed of Spanish Flu. It appears to be moving at roughly 1/4 the speed. So it may take four times longer to encircle the globe but its final destructiveness can be in the trillions of times worse. If you have a villiage to feed with 1000 ears of corn and nothing else and you loose 20 to bugs your little villiage will be just fine but if you loose 900 to bugs... The damage is not 45 times worse. The damage is infinity. The villiage dies. The only differance with Ebola and flu is we can predict the spread of flu almost exactly. Ebola is a bit more slippery as to exactly what it will do where. But we are rapidly learning and the more we learn the less safe I'm feeling.

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"And then there were none."


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:25pm
My point is that we should have been able to stop it with ease.  It is not airborne and every outbreak before has only run (at worst) to a few hundred cases.

This time we failed to catch it. Then we failed to catch it once more.  Then we failed to catch it again.  We are still running to catch up.  We only get so many attempts then it is out of control.  I do not think this is the big one because of the contagiousness/lethality of the virus but the total incompetence of the people with the catcher's mits!

For a disease causing organism to erradicate a species it must not only be very lethal (check) but very contagious (sort of check) and be transmissable between both the at risk species and another in the same environment (check).  I don't see this as being a "Walking Dead" senario because we are the most adaptable vertibrate on the planet.  But I do see slowly escalating problems which will eventually errode our societies.  If we continue to drop the ball.   Though we are running out of chances this is still not certain, only possible.

Willoby brat says:

Worst case senario (still avoidable) it could reduce the population of the world to 10% of what it is now.  This will be due to the overwhelming breakdown of the professional people who insure everything from healthcare to corpse disposal and maintenance of essential services. 

When enough people are dead, as in the black death, the bodies can not be disposed of quick enough, therefore they decompose and cause further health problems by organic leeching into water supplies, sewerage and drainage systems.  Contamination of sewerage leads to further expansion of the effective active arena of the disease by allowing other unrelated diseases (dysentery, cholera, typhus etc.) to flourish.  Vermin, such as most members of the rodent population eat putrefying flesh, as do many mammal interractive disease vectors such as cockroaches flies etc.. 

As we, as a species, are reliant on our technology, hence our species name homo sapiens sapiens, is recognised as var-technologicus by anthropologists, you will appreciate that a small number of our species specialise in each branch of necessary technology, ie. medicine, food production, energy supplies, transport, defence, population control (police) and each of those professions are subdivided into many specialised units. 

If you take away by disease any single section of our society the whole society will collapse, like a row of dominoes.  If this occurs you can do the maths and work out just how many of the ebola survivors would survive the ensuing crash of civilisation.  I have done the mathematics and the research and can assure you, if the rate of atrition at present occuring due to ebola continues unabated, that alone would wipe out 50% of our planetary population by early 2016.

If, perchance, this virus mutates to the point where it is 100% lethal (highly unlikely but possible), by July 2016  it could kill 9.5 billion people.  As our global population is 7.5 billion that result is obvious.  It is an irony that the animal population of the planet is undergoing an ELE event at this moment.

All of this is, admitedly, conjecture but ebola keeps on surprising us.

Best case senario: "Our boys could be home for Christmas."


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: sleusha
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:28pm
I hate to say it, but I'm getting more and more uneasy as time goes on. So many inconsistencies and mixed messages about ebola. It's not all adding up. I hope I and others are worried about nothing. It's hard not to overthink this thing when so many mixed messages are coming out. This virus seems far more virulent than we are being led to believe.

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Be the positive change that you want to see. Live it, be it, push for it.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:49pm
Its big for Africa because of the poverty and lifestyle of the people there and the overcrowding.

There they handle and fondle the corpse and contract the virus with their practices such as drinking the washing water.

But as I already posted the RO is 2 and that is nowhere near as bad as Influenza.

The main thing is that the virus cannot be caught until symptoms are evident, unlike Flu.

This is NOT the big one - its a warm up. It is bad, but nowhere near as bad as the flu.

So get a grip everyone.

OK some agree and some don't. Thats good too, so lets start a Poll or lay some bets.

I say its a problem in Africa and everywhere else its easily controlled. There will be cases of course - because of air travel, and hospital idiocy, such as telling the sick person to take an asprin and go home.

But I say its not a major world problem and we should all get a grip.

Lets place our bets and see what happens. If I am wrong I will be the first to say so.





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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:54pm
I am willing to accept I am wrong already.  Everything I said is a possibility not a probability.  It all depends on continued incompetence vs sudden unexpected inteligence.   On the bright side even Chan has admitted this is a big problem now.

You are right about the poverty affecting the control in Africa.  By the same token, it limits the travel of the sick too.


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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 3:58pm
Civilisation is a thin veneer.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:01pm
Your points are valid - no question.

But the R0 is still 2.


You may want to think about that - the Reduction number is 2.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8261248


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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:05pm
One useful thing for all of us here - and I am sure you will agree:

The handling of this Ebola outbreak shows clearly how useless the Government has been in stopping it and containing it.

If they are this useless with the Ebola virus, imagine how useless they will be with a pandemic flu.

In other words - we cannot rely on them and must take care of ourselves.

All the people who thought we were crazy to prep for the flu - tell them to look at Ebola and that the Flu is much much worse, and they have to take care of themselves.

They may now understand you and become preppers themselves.




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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:09pm
Kilt,

Spanish flu first wave was only 1.8

Regardless, I have warned you to stop claiming people are drinking washing water off corpses. I am going to edit that out of your posts.
Do it again and I will delete your entire post.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:17pm
Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

Kilt,

Spanish flu first wave was only 1.8

Regardless, I have warned you to stop claiming people are drinking washing water off corpses. I am going to edit that out of your posts.
Do it again and I will delete your entire post.

1 It happens to be the truth.

2 you have no right to censor my posts 

3 Influenza is contagious before any symptoms.

4. just who the hell do you think you are to threaten me?






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And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


Posted By: Germ Nerdier
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:20pm
Kilt, it is a racist remark.
They do not drink water off the bodies. They wash the body, and they drink from a common cup, but they do not drink Ebola water off the bodies.

Tell you what, you find just 1 credible source that they're drinking corpse runoff, and I will let your comments stand as they are.


Posted By: Kilt2
Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:21pm
Here Germ Nerd

Can you even read:


  • http://science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/18/0326200/ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-looted -
    science-beta.slashdot.org/story/.../ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-loote...
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:zZXW2qyt6SIJ:science-beta.slashdot.org/story/14/08/18/0326200/ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-looted+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    Aug 18, 2014 - People who don't believe in Ebola are removed from the gene pool. ... But instead drinking the water used to wash a corpse instead they insist ...
  • http://science.slashdot.org/story/14/08/18/0326200/ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-looted -
    science.slashdot.org/story/14/.../ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-looted
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PkfBcGU8PpIJ:science.slashdot.org/story/14/08/18/0326200/ebola-quarantine-center-in-liberia-looted+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    Aug 18, 2014 - I'm pretty sure looting an ebola quarantine facility is not "equally ..... the ritual ceremony being drinking the water you use to wash the corpse.
  • http://americablog.com/2014/08/difficulty-treating-containing-ebola-locally.html - The difficulty of treating, and containing, 
    americablog.com ›  http://americablog.com/category/news - News
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:AA-fjuG_pwsJ:americablog.com/2014/08/difficulty-treating-containing-ebola-locally.html+&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    Aug 13, 2014 - Some people have questions about the Ebola outbreak in West Africa. ... wash. Just out of sight, downstream, children are playing in, and drinking, the water. ... The mourning relatives wash and prepare her body and kiss her ...


  • -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:22pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    Kilt, it is a racist remark.
    They do not drink water off the bodies. They wash the body, and they drink from a common cup, but they do not drink Ebola water off the bodies.

    Tell you what, you find just 1 credible source that they're drinking corpse runoff, and I will let your comments stand as they are.

    You dont know what you are talking about


    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Germ Nerdier
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:26pm
    WOW ... Really?

    Your credible source is a comments section on an opinion blog, under the heading "Nigg*rs"??

    Mind boggling.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:26pm
  • http://www.avianflutalk.com/ebola-droplet-transmission-is-airborne_topic31529_page5.html?SID=49791202d32191cdb8deddz6547fd3036226852 -
    www.avianflutalk.com/ebola-droplet-transmission-is-airborne_topic3152...
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:BhOjq3Rpi7MJ:www.avianflutalk.com/ebola-droplet-transmission-is-airborne_topic31529_page5.html%3FSID%3D49791202d32191cdb8deddz6547fd3036226852+&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    Oct 4, 2014 - THIS is the portal of entry for Ebola into the human body, not the .....washing a body dead from Ebola and then drinking the water is so stupid.
  • http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=154711 -
    www.macedoniantruth.org › ... ›  http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=2 - General Discussions
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:3HFXWbMnIdcJ:www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php%3Fp%3D154711+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    5 days ago - 8 posts - ‎5 authors
    British man dies of suspected Ebola in Macedonia - first UK victim of ... and friendsdrinking the water that is used to wash the dead body prior to ...
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=ebola+drinking+the+water+washing+corpse+site:www.macedoniantruth.org&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&es_sm=122&biw=1366&bih=653&sa=X&ei=TV48VNyNF8v98AXnm4DQAg&ved=0CD8QrQIwBA - More results from www.macedoniantruth.org
  • http://www.thesierraleonetelegraph.com/?p=7637 -
    www.thesierraleonetelegraph.com/?p=7637
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:bxsFy2SITN4J:www.thesierraleonetelegraph.com/%3Fp%3D7637+&cd=6&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -

    Oct 3, 2014 - Alarm at the first diagnosis of Ebola in the USA, raises more ethical questions ... such as washing faces or drinking the water used to wash the dead, ... It does not matter if the dead body is that of your husband, relative or child.

  • https://pmb.gva.ocg.msf.org/opac_css/doc_num.php?explnum_id=562
    Annex 11.5 Example of Culturally Adapted Pre-Burial Body Washing .... There are two objectives in dealing with an outbreak of Ebola or Marburg: ...... activities (e.g. washingwith, or drinking the water used for preparation of the corpse.) ...




  • -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:28pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    WOW ... Really?

    Your credible source is a comments section on an opinion blog, under the heading "Nigg*rs"??

    Mind boggling.

    It happens to be the truth.

    I watched a News documentary on Ebola and it was discussed.

    There are thousands of references ( about half a million) about it on the net - but your mind is closed to reality.


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    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Germ Nerdier
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:38pm
    I read them.
    They're mostly opinions by commenters. One, in the telegraph, mentions it but not a funeral rite, it's a reference to crude inoculation "local immunization by tradition".


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:41pm

    http://nationalmirroronline.net/new/one-country-unequal-rights-harmful-practices-discriminatory-laws/ - One country, unequal rights, harmful practices ...

    nationalmirroronline.net/.../one-country-unequal-rights-harmful-practice...
    https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
    • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:7lonsKCSk4oJ:nationalmirroronline.net/new/one-country-unequal-rights-harmful-practices-discriminatory-laws/+&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -
    Dec 26, 2013 - Some are forced to drink the water used to bathe the corpse. The husband's relatives judge .... (f) To drink the water used in washing the corpse of the husband. (g) To weep and wail .... Liberia: Ebola Patient Flees Hospital » ..

    Indeed, in some areas in the South East, the mourning rites imposed on widows are brutal. The wife is presumed in some way guilty of her husband’s death. Some are forced to drink the water used to bathe the corpse. The husband’s relatives judge their cries of grief, finding fault. The humiliations are petty, painful, and very often the inheritance that ought to be a widow’s right is taken.

    “Apart from the fact that the discriminatory practice violates the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), the traditional practices are a taboo in the civilised world and should not find a place in any decent society. It is difficult for a human being in this day and age to believe that a wife is forced to drink the water used in bathing the corpse of her husband, all in the name of custom, as told by Mrs. Agnes lloegbunam. This and other widowhood practices are repugnant to natural justice, equity and good conscience and should be thrown out from society as they do much harm to womanhood..’’

    Also as part of the funeral rites, she is compelled to drink of the water used in washing the corpse, thereby swearing that she had in no way contributed to her husband’s death. Men are never subjected to such indignities when their wives die.

    In Rivers, Cross River and some parts of the South East, where harmful widowhood practices are rife, acts such as the scraping of widows’ hairs, locking up widows in rooms with their husbands’ corpses, and compelling widows to drink water used in washing the deceased bodies are common.


    (a) To permit the hairs on the head or any other part of the body to be shaved;

    (b) To sleep either alone or on the some bed or be locked in a room with corpse of the husband

    (c) Not to receive condolence visits from sympathisers during the period of mourning

    (d) To be re-married by a relative of the late husband

    (e) To sit on the floor or be unclad during any period of the husband’s burial rite

    (f) To drink the water used in washing the corpse of the husband

    (g) To weep and wail loudly at intervals at any time after the death of the husband, except at one’s own volition or involuntary action;

    (h) To remain in confinement after the death of the husband for any given period;

    (i) To vacate the matrimonial home;

    (j) To do any other thing which contravenes the fundamental rights entrenched in the Constitution or is degrading the person.





    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:43pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    I read them.
    They're mostly opinions by commenters. One, in the telegraph, mentions it but not a funeral rite, it's a reference to crude inoculation "local immunization by tradition".

    I have told the truth.

    I saw a whole documentary on Ebola in Africa on the national TV here and this is the reason its spreading in Africa - because of the rituals there.

    You say telling the truth is racist - there is no hope for you.

    You can delete my posts when i tell the truth but you cannot stop the truth being the truth.




    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 4:44pm
    1. http://www.mydailynewswatchng.com/govt-assist-widows-prof-onadeko/ - Govt should assist widows – Prof. Onadeko | Daily Newswatch

      www.mydailynewswatchng.com/govt-assist-widows-prof-onadeko/
      https://www.google.com.au/search?q=R0&rlz=1C1SKPC_enAU399AU465&oq=R0&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.1067j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=122&ie=UTF-8# -
      • http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:SPuhGRwnF-oJ:www.mydailynewswatchng.com/govt-assist-widows-prof-onadeko/+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au -
      Apr 8, 2014 - ... dies, the widow would be made to drink the water used in washing the corpse. ..... How Nigeria used Android App, Facebook to fight Ebola ...
    2. Why did you focus on UCH/College of Medicine and not other institutions?

      God instructed me to start from my place of work. Afterwards, I can launch the foundation in other institutions so that they can replicate this idea too. We want to go beyond this confine; therefore, we are trying to implore the government to come to the aid of widows. The plight of widows is dreadful; the way widows are treated in our communities is really bad. In some ethnic groups, when the husband dies, the widow would be made to drink the water used in washing the corpse. The reason for doing this is that she can confess if she killed her husband. Also in some ethnic group, they would cut the hair of the widow and make her sleep on the bare floor for forty days and she would be served unpalatable meals, all their belongings would be carted away by the family members of the husband. Therefore, I’m pleading to the government to come to the aid of the widows by offering scholarships to the children of widows and by providing a low housing scheme for widows to alleviate their sufferings and what they go through in the hands of their landlords. They should also be given tax relief in their place of work by giving them some waiver so that they are not taxed heavily. More so, there should be job opportunity  for the children of the widows because many widows struggled to send their children to school.





    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Albert
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:02pm
    Kilt my friend, you're a long term member here since the beginning, but I have to back my Mod.   Please slow it down a bit and be more respectful as I look into all this.  If something was deleted than you probably said something way out of line, and not for the family show viewing audience.   Also be nicer to the mods.   They run this place.


    -------------
    https://www.facebook.com/Avianflutalk


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:09pm
    Albert I told the truth - Ebola spreads because of African practices such as when someone dies they wash the body and drink the water.

    That happens to be the truth - and I resent being told:

    1 I am a liar

    2 the post will be deleted

    3 the post is racist.

    If truth is racist and deleted you have lost sight of the freedom of speech,




    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:11pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    I read them.
    They're mostly opinions by commenters. One, in the telegraph, mentions it but not a funeral rite, it's a reference to crude inoculation "local immunization by tradition".

    So the expert on Africa has said it does happen.

    Been to Africa have you?

    I have.




    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Albert
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:16pm
    Well they don't drink the water running off the dead bodies per say lol, but yes there are probably dead bodies in the rivers and in their drinking water.    It's the way 3rd world's operate, and this region of W Africa is the slums of all 3rd worlds.   You should look into Asia and China, but I won't go down that road.  Something like 20,000 dead pigs in their river?


    -------------
    https://www.facebook.com/Avianflutalk


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:27pm
    God instructed me to start from my place of work. Afterwards, I can launch the foundation in other institutions so that they can replicate this idea too. We want to go beyond this confine; therefore, we are trying to implore the government to come to the aid of widows. The plight of widows is dreadful; the way widows are treated in our communities is really bad. In some ethnic groups, when the husband dies, the widow would be made to drink the water used in washing the corpse. The reason for doing this is that she can confess if she killed her husband. Also in some ethnic group, they would cut the hair of the widow and make her sleep on the bare floor for forty days and she would be served unpalatable meals, all their belongings would be carted away by the family members of the husband. Therefore, I’m pleading to the government to come to the aid of the widows by offering scholarships to the children of widows and by providing a low housing scheme for widows to alleviate their sufferings and what they go through in the hands of their landlords. They should also be given tax relief in their place of work by giving them some waiver so that they are not taxed heavily. More so, there should be job opportunity  for the children of the widows because many widows struggled to send their children to school.

    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:28pm
    (a) To permit the hairs on the head or any other part of the body to be shaved;

    (b) To sleep either alone or on the some bed or be locked in a room with corpse of the husband

    (c) Not to receive condolence visits from sympathisers during the period of mourning

    (d) To be re-married by a relative of the late husband

    (e) To sit on the floor or be unclad during any period of the husband’s burial rite

    (f) To drink the water used in washing the corpse of the husband

    (g) To weep and wail loudly at intervals at any time after the death of the husband, except at one’s own volition or involuntary action;

    (h) To remain in confinement after the death of the husband for any given period;

    (i) To vacate the matrimonial home;

    (j) To do any other thing which contravenes the fundamental rights entrenched in the Constitution or is degrading the person.



    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:30pm
    Indeed, in some areas in the South East, the mourning rites imposed on widows are brutal. The wife is presumed in some way guilty of her husband’s death. Some are forced to drink the water used to bathe the corpse. The husband’s relatives judge their cries of grief, finding fault. The humiliations are petty, painful, and very often the inheritance that ought to be a widow’s right is taken.

    “Apart from the fact that the discriminatory practice violates the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), the traditional practices are a taboo in the civilised world and should not find a place in any decent society. It is difficult for a human being in this day and age to believe that a wife is forced to drink the water used in bathing the corpse of her husband, all in the name of custom, as told by Mrs. Agnes lloegbunam. This and other widowhood practices are repugnant to natural justice, equity and good conscience and should be thrown out from society as they do much harm to womanhood..’’

    Also as part of the funeral rites, she is compelled to drink of the water used in washing the corpse, thereby swearing that she had in no way contributed to her husband’s death. Men are never subjected to such indignities when their wives die.

    In Rivers, Cross River and some parts of the South East, where harmful widowhood practices are rife, acts such as the scraping of widows’ hairs, locking up widows in rooms with their husbands’ corpses, and compelling widows to drink water used in washing the deceased bodies are common.



    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Technophobe
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 5:49pm
    Oh dear!

    Please Kilt can we now drop the subject?  You have not been deleted.  The last three posts are still here for all to see. 

    Albert asked you nicely. 

    So do I.

    Please call it quits and shake hands.Handshake


    -------------
    How do you tell if a politician is lying?
    His lips or pen are moving.


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 6:03pm
    I will not stand for being called a LIAR and a RACIST when all I do is speak the truth.

    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.


    Posted By: Elver
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 7:38pm
    Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

    Oh dear!

    Please Kilt can we now drop the subject?  You have not been deleted.  The last three posts are still here for all to see. 

    Albert asked you nicely. 

    So do I.

    Please call it quits and shake hands.Handshake



    Why should Kilt have to drop this subject? He was challenged and then proved himself. Why does this forum consistently tell people to drop subjects which they aren't in agreement with? Is it because Kilt was right in this instance and someone was embarrassed?

    I was fascinated to learn this stuff. I knew that women were treated like crap around the world, but this is horrific.

    *** Thank you Kilt for your post, which I found very enlightening.


    Posted By: Guests
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 7:51pm
    I asked for the source back on Oct 9th and he didn't provide it. It could have been settled then. He has since reported the same comments again and again.
    They do sound offensive. I said the comment sounded racist. NOT that Kilt was. I also said that if just one source was provided, his comment would be left alone. And it was. Then he spammed the thread.
    It's not that the subject needs to be dropped, but that the most recent posting behavior was excessive.

    I'm a nice person, and I like to think I'm fair. It wasn't for my own sensibilities that I took issue with the way funeral rites were presented, but that it's a negative reflection on us all to present information in this way.




    Posted By: CRS, DrPH
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 7:54pm
    Kilt:

    The virus is being propagated for a number of reasons, and funeral & burial practices are only one, and probably not the most significant. 

    These countries have essentially no modern health care infrastructure, so the sick are tended to by family members for the most part.  Living Ebola patients are far more infectious than dead corpses are, since the maximum virus load is being shed by a patient in the most advanced stage of the disease. 

    It may be true that the widows are forced to drink the bathing water from their husband's corpse.  The world is cruel, there are still places in India where wives are burnt on their late husband's funeral pyre.  

    However, if the widow was caring for her husband, she probably already has the disease from exposure to his bodily secretions.  

    Judge not lest ye be judged.  This outbreak has nothing to do with skin color, but with geography and local environmental factors.  If the idiots at the NIH had broken the vial of smallpox culture they found in the freezer, they might have unleashed that upon a largely susceptible/unvaccinated planet.  


    -------------
    CRS, DrPH


    Posted By: Elver
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 8:13pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    I asked for the source back on Oct 9th and he didn't provide it. It could have been settled then.


    Lots of people don't provide sources. So, if the mods don't believe something to be true they demand sources now?


    On Muslim body washing. (No wonder Ebola is spreading.)
    "While someone lifts the upper body, one woman presses down on the abdomen to excrete fluids still in the body."

    This body washing article is fascinating.
    http://wfae.org/post/how-muslims-wash-bury-their-dead - http://wfae.org/post/how-muslims-wash-bury-their-dead

    Here's a new one! How about the benefits of drinking camel urine!!!
    "Camel’s urine, especially the urine of a young she-camel – is used as a cleansing substance to wash wounds and sores, to make the hair grow, to strengthen and thicken it and to prevent it falling out, and it is used to treat diseases of the scalp and dandruff."
    http://islamqa.info/en/83423 - http://islamqa.info/en/83423


    Posted By: Kilt2
    Date Posted: October 13 2014 at 8:22pm
    Originally posted by Germ Nerdier Germ Nerdier wrote:

    I asked for the source back on Oct 9th and he didn't provide it. It could have been settled then. He has since reported the same comments again and again.
    They do sound offensive. I said the comment sounded racist. NOT that Kilt was. I also said that if just one source was provided, his comment would be left alone. And it was. Then he spammed the thread.
    It's not that the subject needs to be dropped, but that the most recent posting behavior was excessive.

    I'm a nice person, and I like to think I'm fair. It wasn't for my own sensibilities that I took issue with the way funeral rites were presented, but that it's a negative reflection on us all to present information in this way.



    All I do is tell the truth.

    I have been to Africa. If you like i will tell you why diseases like AIDS spreads there the way it does.

    You wont like it and think it lies and racist but it will be the truth.

    Like I said you have never been to Africa and I have - you know only your comfortable home and nothing of this dark world.

    Do not ever call me a liar.


    -------------
    And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him.



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