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My fear when Mr. Trump takes the Oath of Office...

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Topic: My fear when Mr. Trump takes the Oath of Office...
Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Subject: My fear when Mr. Trump takes the Oath of Office...
Date Posted: November 16 2016 at 5:17pm
Inevitably, foreign powers "test" the new Chief Executive to see what his response will be.  

A classic example was the downing of a sophisticated US spy plane by China when George W. Bush was in office for only ten weeks in 2001:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

Considering Russia's military buildup on its European border, I expect to either see a Russian military invasion of NATO countries in the Baltic, or a full-blown invasion of Ukraine, within weeks of the Trump inauguration: 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nato-russia-baltic-states-overrun-in-hours-rand-corporation-report-a7384381.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/nato-russia-baltic-states-overrun-in-hours-rand-corporation-report-a7384381.html

Trump will be clueless, and Putin knows this...the security establishment is shunning the Trump transition team, and key members have resigned.  We have no clue who the Sec. Defense is likely to be, but I doubt that it will be anyone impressive or intimidating to Putin. 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/09/team-trump-struggling-to-fill-national-security-jobs.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/09/team-trump-struggling-to-fill-national-security-jobs.html

Scenarios could include Trump's acquiescence to Russia, or over-reaction (possibly involving nuclear strikes).  In any event, I wouldn't blame Putin for being militarily aggressive, it would be a historic opportunity to strike a blow at the heart of NATO. 

Not to mention what China, North Korea, Iran or other state actors might do.   I could also see a major cyberattack on the US cyber infrastructure. 

This is a good read on some of the possible scenarios and reasons for state actors to do something drastic:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/11/here-s-how-china-and-russia-will-test-trump.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/11/here-s-how-china-and-russia-will-test-trump.html

Now would be a good time to check your supplies and preparations.  

Be safe, Chuck




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CRS, DrPH



Replies:
Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 16 2016 at 5:37pm
NSA chief: 'Nation state' intervened in presidential election 'to achieve a specific effect'

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/16/1600424/-NSA-chief-Nation-state-intervened-in-election-to-achieve-a-specific-effect" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...pecific-effect

" [Deputy Editor-in-Chief Rebecca] Blumenstein also asked Rogers about WikiLeaks, and the slow and steady leak of emails stolen from Hillary Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's gmail account. "There shouldn't be any doubts in anybody's mind: This was not something that was done casually, this was not something that was done by chance, this was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily," Rogers said. "This was a conscious effort by a nation state to attempt to achieve a specific effect."

That nation state is clearly Russia."


there's an increasing amount of evidence that Putin prefers Trump
why ?


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 16 2016 at 6:48pm
You're worried about a Russia invasion? The invasion has already begun and it isn't Russia. It's the Muslim immigrants flooding into Europe and they're coming from all over the middle east, not just Syria!

3/4ths of these immigrants are young males and in some camps the percentage is even higher. This is not the makeup of Syria.

Who cares about Ukraine when all of Europe is going down right now.


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 16 2016 at 7:54pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

NSA chief: 'Nation state' intervened in presidential election 'to achieve a specific effect'

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/16/1600424/-NSA-chief-Nation-state-intervened-in-election-to-achieve-a-specific-effect" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...pecific-effect

" [Deputy Editor-in-Chief Rebecca] Blumenstein also asked Rogers about WikiLeaks, and the slow and steady leak of emails stolen from Hillary Clinton campaign chairman John Podesta's gmail account. "There shouldn't be any doubts in anybody's mind: This was not something that was done casually, this was not something that was done by chance, this was not a target that was selected purely arbitrarily," Rogers said. "This was a conscious effort by a nation state to attempt to achieve a specific effect."

That nation state is clearly Russia."


there's an increasing amount of evidence that Putin prefers Trump
why ?

Thanks, good information! 

I found this a few days ago, and haven't heard much from other sources:

http://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/" rel="nofollow - http://heatst.com/world/exclusive-fbi-granted-fisa-warrant-covering-trump-camps-ties-to-russia/


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 1:31am
Does anyone think Mrs Trump is a Soviet mole ,Putin's honeypot in the white house? Talk about conspiracy theories....lol

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12 monkeys!!!!!


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 9:02am
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

Does anyone think Mrs Trump is a Soviet mole ,Putin's honeypot in the white house? Talk about conspiracy theories....lol

That thought actually crossed my mind.  

http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/donald-trumps-first-alarming-week-as-president-elect?intcid=mod-latest" rel="nofollow - http://www.newyorker.com/news/daily-comment/donald-trumps-first-alarming-week-as-president-elect?intcid=mod-latest

He suggested a sharper focus on fighting Islamic State, or ISIS, in Syria, rather than on ousting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. “My attitude was you’re fighting Syria, Syria is fighting ISIS, and you have to get rid of ISIS. Russia is now totally aligned with Syria, and now you have Iran, which is becoming powerful, because of us, is aligned with Syria. . . . Now we’re backing rebels against Syria, and we have no idea who these people are.” If the U.S. attacks Mr. Assad, Mr. Trump said, “we end up fighting Russia, fighting Syria.”


A careful reading of the logic behind this policy is that President-elect Trump accepts that American foreign policy should be guided by Russia. According to Trump, if Russia has an interest and military presence in a region, the United States needs to align with Russian interests or “we end up fighting Russia.” 


Later that day, after Trump talked to Putin, the Kremlin issued a http://en.kremlin.ru/events/president/news/53255" rel="nofollow -



Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 1:17pm
well while trump was saying the Election was rigged , 

was he telling the truth?????????

called hiding in "PLAIN SIGHT "!!!!!!!!

remember Edward Snowden!!!!!!!!!


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12 monkeys!!!!!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 3:05pm
Speculation serves no useful purpose.


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 4:06pm
Speculation serves no useful purpose.

it does serve a purpose
it gets people thinking
and that gets people digging


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 4:40pm
Originally posted by Crabby Crabby wrote:

Speculation serves no useful purpose.

In intelligence/national security, we call this "visioning." 

More interesting background information:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/16/how-world-war-iii-could-begin-in-latvia/" rel="nofollow - http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/11/16/how-world-war-iii-could-begin-in-latvia/


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 5:17pm
For what it is worth, here is the root of my "visioning".

In a sociology experiment, performed by my daughter's college, where the relevant words were adapted, and the comparisons were translated from the German: the public were read a series of Trump's comments and a similar series of Hitler's comments.  None of those tested could tell the difference.  

Putin already saw Trump as a potential puppet.  That was before he said he did not believe in the West getting/being involved in the Syrian conflict.  Experienced politicians have trouble in understanding Putin, this leaves no hope.

I believe at least one of his companies has been dogged by bankruptcy. 

His entire campaign was composed of aggression, xenophobia, impossible promises, evasion and blame-shifting.  I can't believe anyone was stupid enough to fall for all that.  It has certainly diminished America in my eyes.  It seems that now he is in power he will tone down what was promised, but even diluted that is scary, inhumane and, frankly, embarrassing. 

I have a very good imagination.  So, no prizes for working out where my visioning went.  
                                                                                                                                           I don't sleep so well now.



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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 5:39pm
Proposed bill turns protesting into a felony

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/17/1600850/-Proposed-bill-turns-protesting-into-a-felony" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...-into-a-felony

Trump Supporter Cites Japanese Internment As ‘Precedent’ For Muslim Registry

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/higbie-japanese-internment-muslim_us_582d2f9fe4b099512f80f7b7?hssh1nx3vge8us1yvi" rel="nofollow - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...1nx3vge8us1yvi


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 5:55pm
Trump names retired General Michael Flynn as National Security Advisor....

I sense trouble...

http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/michael-flynn-russia-donald-trump-national-security-adviser-ties-to-vladimir-putin-syria-isis-who-is-cabinet-rt/" rel="nofollow - http://heavy.com/news/2016/11/michael-flynn-russia-donald-trump-national-security-adviser-ties-to-vladimir-putin-syria-isis-who-is-cabinet-rt/


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: FluMom
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 7:34pm
Welcome to the crowd, I was scared to death when a Community Organizer, with only a law degree and 2.5 years as a U.S. Senator became our President. Gee do I need to spell it out Obama. So don't cry wolf until you know there is a wolf because no one will listen or care about what you say in the future.

Give Trump a chance to govern it has been one week and people are going off the deep end for no reason! What people say in a campaign is totally different than what they do just look at Obama.

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Always Be Prepared


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 10:14pm
Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Welcome to the crowd, I was scared to death when a Community Organizer, with only a law degree and 2.5 years as a U.S. Senator became our President. Gee do I need to spell it out Obama. So don't cry wolf until you know there is a wolf because no one will listen or care about what you say in the future.

Give Trump a chance to govern it has been one week and people are going off the deep end for no reason! What people say in a campaign is totally different than what they do just look at Obama.

I wasn't scared to death, but I was concerned.  Pres. Obama had a pretty thin resume, but he had a good brain coming in and some competent people around him (I know one of them).  He's done a fine job, and much of that is from the quality of advice he was given at the beginning.   The Pentagon nicknamed him "No Drama Obama," and he's lived up to it.

Trump has Ivanka and Kushner.  He sacked his best advisor (Christie) and is surrounding himself with yes-men and fawning sycophants. 

I'm particularly alarmed at the selection of Gen. Mike Flynn as National Security Advisor, I don't think we want to live in a country with Muslim registries.  

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-flynn-trump-national-security_us_582e4bfde4b030997bbea9a6" rel="nofollow - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/mike-flynn-trump-national-security_us_582e4bfde4b030997bbea9a6

Give him a chance?  With selections like Bannon etc., I'm not feeling that generous.  


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: EdwinSm,
Date Posted: November 17 2016 at 10:20pm
A view from the Baltics:
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38014997" rel="nofollow - http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-38014997

Wall mural shows Donald Trump locked in embrace with Russian President Vladimir Putin




Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 1:52am
I think countries will test Trump. When Putin can make the US fight a war against IS under (a sort of) Russian supervision that would save Russia a lot of costs. 

North Korea always is hard to predict. One major player stays in the background but has a clear plan (and a lot of cards in its hands) :China. For the moment China is "best friends"with Russia and Iran. China is the energy-buyer; Iran and Russia sell energy. 

There are lots of countries that want to sell energy to China. Also China wants to get more independent. China is willing to cooperate with Russia and Iran under Chinese conditions for Chinese goals. 

The "New Silk Road" is meant to make the Chinese economy grow further. China has a housing bubble, owns a lot of debt-papers-also from the US. China wants "to rule" south-east Asia (more than the South China Sea-they want to be the most important trade dealer in Asia). 

When other countries make China a better offer than Russia and Iran make at present the Russia-Iran-China coalition-united against Obama-may not last that long. 

Trump wants to make the US more independent in energyneeds. Saudi Arabia, Gulf states (allready not happy with better US-Israel relations; Russia was gaining ground in Israel) will need other buyers for oil, face decrease in income. 

Basicly: Putin may be very bussy in the Middle East and keeping China happy. Putin wants better relations with Europe. He will try to use Trump for his goals but the US may not be priority number one for Putin. (The Syria-war is to expensive for Russia. One of the reasons why the west/gulf states keep supporting "rebels" is that it weakens Russia (and this also explains why China is limiting its role in the Middle East). Russia can not continu the war in Syria for years-they need a (Russian) victory. And if that means they have to "sell" Assad for Trump/US support they proberbly will dump Assad to replace him with a pro-Russian puppet.)

Trump needs to set goals to archive them. Otherwise other countries that do know what they want will go for their goals. 


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Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 2:08am
For the Ukraine time is on the Russian side. The US under Trump looks like less interested in putting a lot of money in the corrupt Kiev-regime. The Minsk-agreements are a European initiative. Both France and Germany have elections in 2017 with parties expected to play a major role to become winners that are "anti"EU. So they also will not support the Kiev-regime. 

Expension of NATO and EU ware the mean reasons for the Maidan-coup. Ukraine itself is broke, bankrupt. 

A "peace agreement" proberbly will mean "new elections" in wich Russia will regain influence. Both the EU and US do not pay endlessly for a regime that is that much disliked and fail to deliver. 

China may want to increase its role, maybe buying Ukrainian companies/energy/ports. 

When Trump decides not to risk major wars for "Syrian rebels", Wahabi-kings, and Ukrainian nazi's I think the world becomes a better place. There are better ways for the US to keep influence around the globe. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and some other "western allies" may do more damage than some "enemies" do.


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Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 4:46am
As a point of interest, or possibly an omen, The day we found out that Trump had won (Wednesday 9 Nov.) was the anniversary of kristallnacht.

Source:   http://www.history.com/topics/kristallnacht" rel="nofollow - http://www.history.com/topics/kristallnacht


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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 10:08am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

For the Ukraine time is on the Russian side. The US under Trump looks like less interested in putting a lot of money in the corrupt Kiev-regime. The Minsk-agreements are a European initiative. Both France and Germany have elections in 2017 with parties expected to play a major role to become winners that are "anti"EU. So they also will not support the Kiev-regime. 

Expension of NATO and EU ware the mean reasons for the Maidan-coup. Ukraine itself is broke, bankrupt. 

A "peace agreement" proberbly will mean "new elections" in wich Russia will regain influence. Both the EU and US do not pay endlessly for a regime that is that much disliked and fail to deliver. 

China may want to increase its role, maybe buying Ukrainian companies/energy/ports. 

When Trump decides not to risk major wars for "Syrian rebels", Wahabi-kings, and Ukrainian nazi's I think the world becomes a better place. There are better ways for the US to keep influence around the globe. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and some other "western allies" may do more damage than some "enemies" do.

Thanks, Dutch Josh!  As always, your European perspective is very much appreciated.  

Since Trump is appointing "strong men" advisors (Tea Party to CIA, Flynn to National Security etc.), I'm expecting this group to roll over and play dead whenever Putin pulls the chain.  

A massive military incursion into Ukraine under the pretext of "defending" Russian-speaking citizens seems likely.  Resistance would likely be token in the face of Russian armor, as it was in the Prague Spring. 

An all-out invasion of the NATO Baltic seems less likely, but possible if Trump truly wants to push the alliance and see what happens.  

I'm not sure what China may planning, but they certainly will have some inauguration day gift for Trump. 


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 1:28pm
China wants Australia,

thats my gut instinct

Vast open country with unlimited mineral reserves

large high yeild uranium deposits,

why do you think they are building "stepping stones" through the south china sea?????




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12 monkeys!!!!!


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

China wants Australia,

thats my gut instinct

Vast open country with unlimited mineral reserves

large high yeild uranium deposits,

why do you think they are building "stepping stones" through the south china sea?????



Damn good point!  And, you Aussies are fairly weak in a military sense...no nukes available.  

I'd like to think that these powers (Russia, China, Iran) are bullies who will try to subvert other countries into doing their bidding....

However, history also supports the view that they are imperialistic and wish to actually occupy the territory.  China is not nearly as big of a problem in this regard as Russia has been, historically speaking. 

Anything can happen.  



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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: November 18 2016 at 10:00pm
CRS,DrPH, why would someone go for a military-way when a non-military way gives better results for less investments ? 

In the Ukraine the Kiev "group¨ was payed by the west as long as they would bring the Ukraine closer to EU/NATO, They failed to do a proper job, turned Ukraine in a economic disaster (Poland is still giving some support-Ukraine and Poland share a "problematic past" with Russia).  When Germany, France stop "investing" in the Ukraine, the US stops paying the military bill "new negotiations" may become more fruitfull. 

Ukraine can try to do business with Turkey on the southern/Black Sea border but in many ways it simply can not escape from doing deals with Russia. 

China has a population problem. China has been exporting "workers" all over the world for over a decade. In several African countries there are Chinese communities. Oil, minerals, mining, but also building infra-structure is a Chinese export product (including Chinese workers). 

When you can buy Australian mines, food production, ports, put Chinese management in place, give building projects to Chinese companies (with Chinese workers) why would you choose to go for a military way ? Buying what you want is the short cut, destroying it and rebuilding it afterwards "is not good for business"! There is a whole world for sale, lets not destroy that ! (Proberbly the way China looks at the world-they are already in charge, only we did not see that.) 


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Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: November 19 2016 at 10:30pm
"ITS BETTER TO TAKE THE STATE INTACT , than to resort to war ",

quote from SunTzu "THE ART OF WAR"

circa 6th century BCE

But when other things dictate a faster tranistion I.E

CLIMATE CHANGE,"a civilization change ",acording to the Chinese government.....

who knows???

just have to wait and see,

sit back and have another beer....lol


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12 monkeys!!!!!


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 20 2016 at 1:30pm
This is Directly From Steve Bannon's Breitbart, This is Really Happening, We Can't Kid Ourselves

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/20/1602158/-This-is-Directly-From-Steve-Bannon-s-Breitbart-This-is-Really-Happening-We-Can-t-Kid-Ourselves" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...-Kid-Ourselves

"Steve Bannon is part of the Alt-Right. He admittedly has made Breitbart News “the platform for Alt-Right” views. “’We're the platform for the alt-right,’ Bannon told me [reporter David Corn] proudly when I interviewed him at the Republican National Convention (RNC) in July.” “Bannon is our man in the White House” said Andrew Anglin from the Neo-Nazi website Daily Stormer. "

and Bannon is one of Trump's TOP advisers



if your not familar with the term "alt-right"
you may want to do a little research

the next 4 years could be pretty awful

READ before you accept the obscene and unthinkable as normal.

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/20/1602264/-READ-before-you-accept-the-obscene-and-unthinkable-as-normal

"Trump’s vision for the United States is echoed in that of his chief strategist, Steve Bannon, a man who even the very right-wing Glenn Beck describes as a dangerous, sociopathic racist. In 2016, a reporter from the Daily Beast recalled this conversation with Bannon:

“I’m a Leninist,” Bannon proudly proclaimed. Shocked, I asked him what he meant.

“Lenin,” he answered, “wanted to destroy the state, and that’s my goal too. I want to bring everything crashing down, and destroy all of today’s establishment.”



Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 20 2016 at 6:29pm
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

"ITS BETTER TO TAKE THE STATE INTACT , than to resort to war ",

quote from SunTzu "THE ART OF WAR"

circa 6th century BCE

But when other things dictate a faster tranistion I.E

CLIMATE CHANGE,"a civilization change ",acording to the Chinese government.....

who knows???

just have to wait and see,

sit back and have another beer....lol

LOL!!  No kidding!  

China has been building up its military, particularly advanced aviation and naval forces (they are starting carrier operations).  This is why US allies like Japan, Philippines etc. are so wigged out. 

Viet Nam wants the US to come back to Cam Ran Bay, which is interesting.  

I'm not sure about Russia, but I could see China making a sudden push to invade Taiwan.  They've wanted to do that for a while, and the Trump transition might offer a historic opportunity. 

Trump is wrapping himself with former US military advisors who also have some sympathies for Russia, so it could be interesting.   Former Gov. Mitt Romney has been an outspoken critic of Russian engagement, and yet he went on bended knee to interview for Sec. State, so I don't know what is in his mind (except pure opportunism). 

May we live in interesting times....


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: EdwinSm,
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 1:08am
Sadly, throughout history, four American presidents have been assassinated and various other unsuccessful attempts were made on the lives of a number of others.

Can you envy the Secret Service agents, on hearing gunshot near the soon-to-be President Trump, having to yell "Donald, duck..."


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 2:55am
Absolutely Quackers!!!  LOL

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 10:17am
This is so that AFT members in Europe, OZ etc. know what is going on around here....

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/21/us/alt-right-salutes-donald-trump.html


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 11:38am
All joking aside, that is both terrifying and deeply sad.  I had thought the mistakes Germany and her people made in the thirties, and for which they collectively felt a crushingly deep sorrow and guilt, had educated the whole world about the evils of such things.  I believed the few neo-nazis to be a tiny group of power-less/hungry nutcases.

Now, it transpires, I was not just wrong, but spectacularly so.  It appears that 50% of the greatest, freest, most egalitarian union on the face of the planet has joined them before the wounds from one small nation have healed.

Not only are those who do not learn the lessons of history forced to repeat them, but they can drag the whole class along with them.  'AND ONCE WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH!!!

I could say I am sickened, or saddened, or angry, or scared, but none of those adjectives seem strong enough.  I am speechless.


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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: arirish
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 11:49am
Every day there are fewer and fewer people left to bare witness to the atrocities of the Nazi death camps! Every day it is easier to deny it ever happened! I had relatives with the 4th armored division of the 3rd army when it liberated Buchenwald. We should never let it happen again much less be a part of it!

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Buy more ammo!


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 12:34pm
Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

All joking aside, that is both terrifying and deeply sad.  I had thought the mistakes Germany and her people made in the thirties, and for which they collectively felt a crushingly deep sorrow and guilt, had educated the whole world about the evils of such things.  I believed the few neo-nazis to be a tiny group of power-less/hungry nutcases.

Now, it transpires, I was not just wrong, but spectacularly so.  It appears that 50% of the greatest, freest, most egalitarian union on the face of the planet has joined them before the wounds from one small nation have healed.

Not only are those who do not learn the lessons of history forced to repeat them, but they can drag the whole class along with them.  'AND ONCE WAS MORE THAN ENOUGH!!!

I could say I am sickened, or saddened, or angry, or scared, but none of those adjectives seem strong enough.  I am speechless.

Thank you for your perspective from the UK!  Here's yet another one, this one with some very bizarre photos & tweets if you follow the links:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alt-right-hate-richard-spencer_us_5833242fe4b058ce7aac26fe" rel="nofollow - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/alt-right-hate-richard-spencer_us_5833242fe4b058ce7aac26fe

Like you, I thought this was a fringe of older, angry white men....the youth of this movement is most startling.  


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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 3:43pm
the final vote count is not yet in
but as of now
Clinton is ahead by 1.7 MILLION votes

one thing is clear
"the people" did NOT elect Trump
the electoral college did


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 3:57pm
Philosopher predicted rise of Trump-like figure in ’98 book

https://www.yahoo.com/news/philosopher-predicted-rise-of-trump-like-figure-in-98-book-215658929.html

"In the relevant passage, Rorty goes on to suggest that after his “imagined strongman” comes to power he will quickly make peace with the “international super-rich” and invoke memories of past military victories to encourage military adventures for short-term prosperity. But, Rorty continued, the strongman will ultimately be a disaster for the world and people will wonder why there had been so little resistance to his ascent."


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 5:47pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

the final vote count is not yet in
but as of now
Clinton is ahead by 1.7 MILLION votes

one thing is clear
"the people" did NOT elect Trump
the electoral college did


Donald Trump is the 5th president to be elected by the electoral college versus the popular vote. The last president to be elected by electoral collage versus the popular vote was George Bush in 2000 against Al Gore.

There is no use for the electoral college anymore, but I'm still glad that Hillary didn't win.


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: November 21 2016 at 11:15pm
As if having Bannon in the White House wasn't bad enough, it looks like an unqualified climate change denier is going to head up - and likely try to dismantle - the EPA Shocked

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/science/myron-ebell-trump-epa.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/12/science/myron-ebell-trump-epa.html




-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 11:00am
Trump's own staff easily manipulating him

Reince Priebus tried to trick Trump into canceling his New York Times meeting

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/22/1603081/-Reince-Priebus-tried-to-trick-Trump-into-canceling-his-New-York-Times-meeting

the White House is gonna be one big clown car for the next four yearsLOL


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 11:21am
Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

CRS,DrPH, why would someone go for a military-way when a non-military way gives better results for less investments ? 

Good question, but my answer is to look at Tibet and Crimea.  If a great power can invade with little prospect of resistance, I think they will.  

Even the US is guilty of this.  Under Reagan, we invaded Grenada in 1983, using the same pretext that Russia did in Crimea ("protecting nationals").  

China tends to be less militaristic, but they have had border clashes with the USSR, India and Viet Nam. 

The only real military target I can see for China is Taiwan, which they consider as a renegade province, not unlike the situation in Crimea.  Taiwan would put up a pretty stiff resistance, and I suspect that they may have a nuke or two stashed away, but it is possible. 

Russia launching an invasion into the Baltic would be pretty drastic, and I could see all sorts of miscalculations on both sides.  

FYI, I was never in favor of offering former Warsaw Pact countries membership in NATO, as I saw it provocative to Russia.  However, they are in, and countries like Poland contributed greatly to the US efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan, which invoked Article V.   

Should be interesting! 


-------------
CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 4:47pm
poor Trump supportersCry
he's now refusing to prosecute Hillary like he said he would
and now this bit of backtracking

Donald Trump Now Says Humans Somehow Contribute To Climate Change

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-climate_us_58348d49e4b09b6055ff19a3" rel="nofollow - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b09b6055ff19a3

what's next

Trump=bait and switch


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 5:08pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

poor Trump supportersCry
he's now refusing to prosecute Hillary like he said he would
and now this bit of backtracking

Donald Trump Now Says Humans Somehow Contribute To Climate Change

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-climate_us_58348d49e4b09b6055ff19a3" rel="nofollow - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b09b6055ff19a3

what's next

Trump=bait and switch

He's getting a dose of realism....

http://www.seeker.com/france-candidate-threatens-tax-if-trump-dumps-paris-treaty-2093148489.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.seeker.com/france-candidate-threatens-tax-if-trump-dumps-paris-treaty-2093148489.html

If he backs us out of the Paris Accord, other nations may well retaliate. 


-------------
CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 5:31pm
The mild warming of 0.6 to 0.8 C over the 20th century is well within the variations recorded in the last millennium.

https://www.friendsofscience.org/index.php?id=3

Also consider the fact that people like Al Gore have gotten rich off of their climate change investments into so called "green" companies. It's about MONEY and population control.




Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 5:53pm
yeah
Al Gore leaves his porch light on even during the day
so therefore global warming is not happening
everyone can understand that "logic"


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 9:59pm
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-22/tpp-dies-asian-nations-salute-their-new-free-trade-leader-china" rel="nofollow - http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-22/tpp-dies-asian-nations-salute-their-new-free-trade-leader-china Trump can say no to the Trans Pacific Partnership, North American Free Trade Asociation etc-but it is not clear what he has to offer instead. In export-oriented countries they now look for partners that do want to do business: China. 

Trump wants more US-energy, less rules-more fracking-the result will be even more earthquakes. 

Trump ignores climate-collapse, and of course the best way to get bigger problems is by ignoring them ! (Crabby; I would love to believe that climate change is not real-but evidence is different and getting devastating; sealevelrise will escalate within five years. Maybe some sort of feedback system in climatechange/global warming can change things but the way things are going now humans will be gone by 2030 or earlier).

Trump will be confronted with realities that are there; the US has spent billions/trillions in wars for oil to get an elite even richer. Clinton would continu on that destructive route. If Trump has an alternative he has to come up with realistic plans. Replacing middle-east/OPEC energy by US energy would go against the "free market" he claims to believe in. (The reason why the US did loose it position in energy during the 20th century is that productioncosts were much to high in the US.)

The US has "brains", innovation in energy (doing more with less-and reneweble-energy) is a challenge. But computer-driven, low energy electric cars build of new materials are the future. Bi-lateral trade-deals can be an alternative for globalism. 

Another risk in my opinion is "totalitarian democracy" in wich-company owned- main stream media claim that alternatives (like this forum) produce "fake news". All you do on the internet is monitored by the state. There is a group of people in power that have the arrogance to believe that they are always correct, have all the answers. 

Both in the US and Europe extreme right wing "politics" gain ground partly due to this arrogance. But also because an elite is funding these neo-fascist parties, neo-nazi's are fighting in the Ukraine (together with a.o. IS) against Russia. Hitler was funded by a (royal) elite that was afraid of the Soviet Union and atheïsm. Oil companies (and the Bush family, Henry Ford a.o.) paid the nazi's.

The last SS-unit fighting in Berlin may 1945 was the French SS-Charle-le-magne division. Nazism was widespread both in the US and Europe (including colonies). Voters can be manipulated so they are being manipulated-both in the US as elsewere. 

In Germany Merkel is the "moderate"experienced candidate running against "alternative-for-germany" (AfD) in elections in 2017. AfD may collapse under its own weight (or manipulation from outside). In France Marianne le Pen may face competition both from conservatives as from a "new left". Those races will be run the coming months. 

Trump will influence what is happening in Europe (and so will Putin). But the basics to build on are already here and the outcome of earlier decisions.


-------------
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 22 2016 at 11:46pm
Regarding climate change....it is hard to ignore the factual.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/earth/the-arctic-is-36-degrees-f-warmer-than-normal/?utm_medium=novasocial&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=nova_next&linkId=31327062&utm_source=Facebook" rel="nofollow - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/next/earth/the-arctic-is-36-degrees-f-warmer-than-normal/?utm_medium=novasocial&utm_medium=pbsofficial&utm_campaign=nova_next&linkId=31327062&utm_source=Facebook


-------------
CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 1:24am
CRS,DrPH, the article does not mention what to expect for the sealevelrise-lots of sources mention "that it will rise faster than expected" but since the polar regions are remote, satelite-data only gives limited information (so for exemple sea-water temperature at several levels under the sea-ice can only be very limited be measured by satelite) it is very hard to get more specific. 

Less land-ice means less pressure. The land-ice on Greenland was up to 3 kilometers, 1.8 mile thick. Less pressure means the underlying landmass will move up (by 1 kilometer if all the 3 kilometer of ice would go away). That gives seismic activity, earthquakes. 

Also layers in the seafloor, defrozen permafrost (also in mountains-partly glued together by ice=melt is collapse, landslides) on land react on temperatures getting above freezing with release of (a.o.) methane, but also water moving to the surface, sloppy grounds (buildings, roads, pipelines etc. getting unstable). 

Further fracking will cause superfractures. Oklahoma is being destroyed by the oil-industry (Dutchsinse did good reporting on this). Is the US waiting for a man-made (super)earthquake ? In the past I did discuss on this forum the maximum magnitude earthquakes can have by natural causes. The 9.5 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Valdivia_earthquake" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1960_Valdivia_earthquake had (proberbly for the most) natural causus. Fracking in sensitive US regions-close to faultlines wich gave strong earthquakes in the last centuries-partly overdue-and with global pressure redistribution-is not only a risk for the US !

Here in the Netherlands the oil/gas companies slowed down gas-exploitation because they had to pay for damages. Here the magnitude maximum was under 4. Further fracking in the US can turn the planet into a timebomb. I think a magnitude 10, maybe even up to 11 (?) is possible and that kind of earthquakes (also related super volcano's) is to much for any country to deal with. (It will effect rotation of the globe, give super-tsunami's, total destruction over thousends of kilometers.)

http://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/875/are-richter-magnitude-10-earthquakes-possible" rel="nofollow - http://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/875/are-richter-magnitude-10-earthquakes-possible leaves out the human factors, fracking, massive landice-melt. A man-made faultline in combination with natural faultlines gives total new calculations-risks rise dramaticly ! (And I did not even mention underground nuclear testing....)


-------------
Que sera, sera, Whatever will be, will be, The future is not ours to see, Que sera, sera !


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 7:20am
Thanks, Dutch Josh!  There are tons of articles, this one has a good animation showing what will happen to US coastal areas. 

http://www.alternet.org/environment/heres-how-rising-sea-will-remake-coastlines-endangered-us-states-and-drown-much-world" rel="nofollow - http://www.alternet.org/environment/heres-how-rising-sea-will-remake-coastlines-endangered-us-states-and-drown-much-world

Interestingly, the most impacted regions in the US are also the ones that voted against Donald Trump!! 




-------------
CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Satori
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 12:40pm
Two million more Americans voted for Hillary Clinton than for Donald Trump

http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/23/1603494/-2-million-more-Americans-voted-for-Hillary-Clinton-than-for-Donald-Trump" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...r-Donald-Trump


the "people's" choice was quite clear

#TrumpNot MyPresident


Posted By: jacksdad
Date Posted: November 23 2016 at 2:58pm
Interesting story just breaking about "anomalies" in parts of battleground states that used electronic voting.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jill-stein-prepares-to-request-election-recounts-in-battleground-states/ar-AAkG049?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=SL5IDHP" rel="nofollow - http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/jill-stein-prepares-to-request-election-recounts-in-battleground-states/ar-AAkG049?li=BBnb7Kz&ocid=SL5IDHP






-------------
"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: November 25 2016 at 1:27pm

How long before the white working class realises Trump was just scamming them?

He hasn't even taken office yet and the broken promises are piling up

  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#commentsDiv" rel="nofollow - 13 comments
6K
https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FIndependentUS%2F&width=450&layout=button&action=like&size=large&show_faces=false&share=false&height=35&appId=235586169789578" rel="nofollow -
- The Independent US
https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FIndependentUS%2F&width=450&layout=button&action=like&size=large&show_faces=false&share=false&height=35&appId=235586169789578" rel="nofollow">trumpwhiteworkingclass.jpg

https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FIndependentUS%2F&width=450&layout=button&action=like&size=large&show_faces=false&share=false&height=35&appId=235586169789578" rel="nofollow - While we’re still analysing the election results and debating the importance of different factors to the final outcome, everyone agrees that white working class voters played a key part in  http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/DonaldTrump" rel="nofollow - Donald Trump’s  victory, in some cases by switching their votes and in some cases by turning out when they had been nonvoters before.

And now that he’s about to take office, he’s ready to deliver on what he promised them, right? Well, maybe not so much:

President-elect Donald Trump  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-backlash-breitbart-reddit-ann-coulter-hillary-clinton-global-warming-uturn-a7432846.html" rel="nofollow - abruptly abandoned some of his most tendentious campaign promises  Tuesday, saying he  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/donald-trump-will-not-pursue-investigation-of-hillary-clinton-related-to-private-email-server-or-a7431861.html" rel="nofollow - does not plan to prosecute Hillary Clinton for her use of a private email system  or the dealings of her family foundation, has an “open mind” about a climate-change accord from which he vowed to withdraw the United States and is no longer certain that torturing terrorism suspects is a good idea.

The billionaire real estate developer also dismissed any need to disentangle himself from his financial holdings, despite  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-election-latest-investments-conflict-interest-president-farage-india-saudi-a7435631.html" rel="nofollow - rising questions about how his global business dealings might affect his decision-making  as the nation’s chief executive.

And it’s not just that; at the same time, the Trump administration and congressional Republicans are getting ready to move on their highest priorities, cutting taxes for the wealthy, scrapping oversight on Wall Street, and lightening regulations on big corporations.

Imagine you’re one of those folks who went to Trump rallies and thrilled to his promises to take America back from the establishment, who felt your heart stir as he promised to torture prisoners, who got your “Trump That Bitch” T-shirt, who was overjoyed to finally have a candidate who tells it like it is. What are you thinking as you watch this?

<

If you have any sense, you’re coming to the realisation that it was all a scam. You got played. While you were chanting “ http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-hillary-clinton-lock-her-up-republican-a7406476.html" rel="nofollow - Lock her up! ” he was laughing at you for being so gullible. While you were dreaming about how you’d have an advocate in the Oval Office, he was dreaming about how he could use it to make himself richer. He hasn’t even taken office yet and everything he told you is already being revealed as a lie.

During the campaign, Trump made two kinds of promises to those white working class voters. One was very practical, focused on economics. In coal country, he said he’d bring back all the coal jobs that have been lost to cheap natural gas (even as he promotes more fracking of natural gas; figure that one out). In the industrial Midwest, he said he’d bring back all the labour-intensive factory jobs that were mostly lost to automation, not trade deals. These promises were utterly ludicrous, but most of the target voters seemed not to care.

The second kind of promise was emotional and expressive. It was about turning back the clock to a time when immigrants hadn’t come to your town, when women weren’t so uppity, when you could say whatever you wanted and you didn’t feel like the culture and the economy were leaving you behind. So Trump said he’d toss  http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/HillaryClinton" rel="nofollow - Hillary Clinton  in jail, force everyone to say “Merry Christmas” again, and sue those dastardly liberal news organisations into submission.

And of course, there were promises - like  http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/fence-donald-trump-wall-mexico-us-border-president-immigrants-deportation-latest-interview-a7415156.html" rel="nofollow - building a wall on the southern border and making Mexico pay for it  just so they know who’s boss - that claimed to serve a practical purpose but also had an important expressive purpose. And now one by one Trump is casting them all off.

So what are we left with? What remains is Trump’s erratic whims, his boundless greed, and the core of Republican policies Congress will pursue, which are most definitely not geared toward the interests of working class whites. He can gut environmental regulations, but that doesn’t mean millions of people are going to head back to the coal mines - it was market forces more than anything else that led to coal’s decline. He can renegotiate trade deals, but that doesn’t mean that the labour-intensive factory jobs are coming back. And by the way, the high wages, good benefits, and job security those jobs used to offer? That was thanks to labour unions, which Republicans are now going to try to destroy once and for all.

Had Hillary Clinton won the election, the white working class might have gotten some tangible benefits - a higher minimum wage, overtime pay, paid family and medical leave, more secure health insurance, and so on. Trump and the Republicans oppose all that. So what did the white working class actually get? They got the election itself. They got to give a big middle finger to the establishment, to the coastal elites, to immigrants, to feminists, to college students, to popular culture, to political correctness, to every person and impersonal force they see arrayed against them. And that was it.

So what happens in two years when there’s a congressional election and two years after that when Trump runs for a second term? Those voters may look around and say, Hey wait a minute. That paradise of infinite winning Trump promised? It didn’t happen. My community still faces the same problems it did before. There’s no new factory in town with thousands of jobs paying great salaries. Everybody doesn’t have great health insurance with no cost-sharing for incredibly low premiums. I still hear people speaking Spanish from time to time. Women and minorities are still demanding that I treat them with respect. Music and movies and TV still make me feel like I’m being left behind. When Trump told me he’d wipe all that away, he was conning me. In fact, in many ways he was the fullest expression of the caricature of politicians (everything they say is a lie, they’re only out for themselves) I thought I was striking back against when I supported him.

President Trump protests

  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -
  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -
  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -
  • http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -

      http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-white-working-class-realise-scamming-them-a7436571.html?cmpid=facebook-post#" rel="nofollow -

      Those voters may decide to vote for a Democrat next time. Or they may be demobilised, deciding that there isn’t much point to voting at all. The nearly all-white areas where turnout shot up in 2016 might settle right back down to where they used to be.

      Or maybe Trump will find a way to actually improve the lives of working class voters. That’s theoretically possible, but absolutely nothing he has done or said so far suggests that he has any idea how to do it, or even the inclination. So he may try to keep the fires of hatred, resentment, and fear burning, in the hopes that people forget that he hasn’t given them the practical things he said he would.

      The Washington Post

      • More about: 
      • http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/DonaldTrump" rel="nofollow - Donald Trump
      • http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/us-election" rel="nofollow - US election
      • http://www.independent.co.uk/topic/HillaryClinton" rel="nofollow - Hillary Clinton


      -------------
      12 monkeys!!!!!


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: November 25 2016 at 6:51pm
      People will feel no different than when Obama scammed us by saying that he was going to be the most transparent president ever and then wasn't transparent at all.

      As for the supposed low cost health insurance that I was to get under Obamacare, it has almost doubled in the past 3 years! Nancy Pelosi, the democrat house speaker, told everyone that they had to pass the law to find out what was in it.

      Why should Donald Trump disentangle himself from his business holdings? He will eventually go back to being a private citizen again. Why should he give all of that up? He doesn't need an inside track in government to make more money than he already has. Using the government for their own purposes is more for people like the Clinton's and Obama who went into office with little and came out rich.

      I noticed that you quoted the Washington Post above. We don't call that paper the Washington Compost for nothing. Take a hint from that. This rag is pretty left of center these days.

      I have to wonder why someone from Australia should concern themselves with our election when they don't have any participation in it.


      Posted By: CRS, DrPH
      Date Posted: November 25 2016 at 7:57pm
      ^although this hasn't been written about much, I believe that a critical factor of this election had to do with gun ownership and protecting the 2nd Amendment.  That alone may have been worth it to the group that voted for Trump.  

      It was a consideration of mine, but I reluctantly voted for Hillary out of concern for Trump's many conflicts of interest & the curious ties to Putin, which I'm waiting to see manifested in some type of move against NATO.  We shall see....


      -------------
      CRS, DrPH


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 1:25pm
      "hope and change" republican styleLOLLOLLOL

      grandma is gonna get thrown over a financial cliff
      too bad
      so sad

      http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/27/1602925/-Pay-more-and-get-less-The-Ryan-plan-to-privatize-Medicare" rel="nofollow - Pay more and get less: The Ryan plan to privatize Medicare

      http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/27/1602925/-Pay-more-and-get-less-The-Ryan-plan-to-privatize-Medicare

      elections have consequences


      Posted By: carbon20
      Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 3:13pm
      if you look the news item was from the UK........


      i do read what others say,

      about other countries ,

      keeps my mind.....

      OPEN......

      p.s

      dont tell anyone but i subscribe to the  Russian Times,have to know what the commie bastards are up to ....lol




      -------------
      12 monkeys!!!!!


      Posted By: Medclinician
      Date Posted: November 27 2016 at 4:00pm
      Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

      Two million more Americans voted for Hillary Clinton than for Donald Trump

      http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/23/1603494/-2-million-more-Americans-voted-for-Hillary-Clinton-than-for-Donald-Trump" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...r-Donald-Trump


      the "people's" choice was quite clear

      #TrumpNot MyPresident


      No, not necessarily. You are using the term Americans rather broadly. If you want to consider every person who is physically present in the U.S. an American, it isn't right. The people's choice does not include perhaps 7 million immigrants who voted illegally. In addition to these vote numbers are CNN and Fox generated numbers. When they were so dishonest in the polling numbers, do you think anything is going to be different as they try to get electors to change their votes.

      "Not my president" was the result of a billionaire investing money to back organized rallys around the U.S. with coaxing cards and bullhorns. Many of those people were political mercenaries paid to protest and the ads can be found all over the net.

      They're funded by George Soros' organization, Open Societies

      https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/press-releases/open-society-institute-announces-small-donor-development-and-diversification-grant" rel="nofollow - https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/press-releases/open-society-institute-announces-small-donor-development-and-diversification-grant


      Suppose Trump had done the same thing. Days after Hillary was elected had people in the streets protesting she was "not our president"?

      He was the whiner remember. The person "not in contact with reality" for saying the election was rigged. And now we hear the same battle cry.

      Personally, I would be very afraid the day the Hillary Clinton becomes president. For one, she is likely to have us in a nuclear war in a matter of weeks. Her no fly zone in Syria would set off World War 3.

      The election was a Jerry Springer drama fest which failed to address the real issues, especially foregin policy. The foreign policy of the Democrats for 30 years on and off got us to where we are now with ISIS. We created ISIS just like we created the Mujhadeen to get Russia out of Afghanistan. Hillary has stated this in several videos I put up here.

      The bottom line is we need change. I would be afraid to have the same corrupt political swamp we have had for 50 years. The legislators are controlled by lobbyists who do not represent the people and are totally out of contact with the needs of Americans. 

      America would  not be great again with a criminal in office. There still will be investigations. Our inner cities would be in chaos with policeman being murdered and anarchy in the streets. Do you doubt this?

      It is time for a change. Let us hope we finally get it. Minorities have a right to their voice and to be heard, but we live in a democracy. It is for all the people, not just the really verbal and loud smaller groups with their personal agendas and programs. The Midwest and South and the workers were fed up with East Coast and West Coast running the country. It is time they were heard. The auto-workers, the coal miners, the heartland, the life and blood of our nation. They don't have time to protest. They are too busy working their butts off to make a living and survive. But they certainly had time to vote. And they did.

      Medclinician


      -------------
      "not if but when" the original Medclinician


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 1:05am
      There are various estimates of how many people supposedly voted illegally, ranging from the number you quoted, to Trump's estimate of 3 million. None of those numbers have yet to be substantiated that I'm aware of, although they're being thrown out as fact.

      A right wing blogger called Greg Phillips is the most often quoted, but since he claimed three million votes had been fraudulently cast, he's been either unwilling or unable to provide any evidence to back it up. I'd be interested to see something more substantial than theories and suspicions. Do we have any links to reputable sites that can disprove the current popular vote count?










      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 5:10am
      7 million illegal votes castLOL

      ok at this point people are just making up CRAP

      lets see some EVIDENCE please

      my state is TOTALLY dominated by Republicans
      they have been whining about voter "fraud" forever
      so far they have found exactly 6 votes that MAY have been cast illegally

      that's right
      6 out of over 4 million
      not 600,000
      not 60,000
      not 600
      not 60
      but SIX

      OFFICIAL counts at this point in time
      put Hillary 2 million votes ahead
      once again
      the PEOPLE clearly picked Clinton
      the electoral college picked Trump
      bottom line
      we're screwed
      climate change is going to be the BIGGEST issue we face
      and we have a climate change denier in the White House
      it's not gonna end well for us

      and as I have said
      personally speaking I fully expect another major economic collapse similar to or worse than the one that happened at the end of the Bush debacle

      now please excuse me
      I need to access some of my accounts on line
      and continue moving my money


      Posted By: CRS, DrPH
      Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 10:07am
      Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

      There are various estimates of how many people supposedly voted illegally, ranging from the number you quoted, to Trump's estimate of 3 million. None of those numbers have yet to be substantiated that I'm aware of, although they're being thrown out as fact.

      A right wing blogger called Greg Phillips is the most often quoted, but since he claimed three million votes had been fraudulently cast, he's been either unwilling or unable to provide any evidence to back it up. I'd be interested to see something more substantial than theories and suspicions. Do we have any links to reputable sites that can disprove the current popular vote count?


      He freakin' WON, what difference does it make? 

      There is no credible evidence of any large-scale voter fraud, the recount effort is stupid & a waste of time and money.  

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/28/the-most-likely-explanation-for-donald-trumps-fraud-claims-is-the-simplest-one-ego/" rel="nofollow - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/11/28/the-most-likely-explanation-for-donald-trumps-fraud-claims-is-the-simplest-one-ego/

      Trump is President, we have to deal with it.  Maybe it will be good, maybe not...he belongs to his voters and the GOP Congress now.  

      Personally, I think the guy is too erratic to be an effective President, but we have to go through the process.  I wonder if the GOP Congress will let him sell skyscrapers to Iran, N. Korea etc.?  He will if he can make a buck on it.  



      -------------
      CRS, DrPH


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 1:38pm
      I absolutely agree, Chuck, and nothing's going to change the result. But I'm just wondering if there is indeed any proof of widespread voter fraud numbering in the millions as is being claimed. Trump is currently lagging behind in the popular vote, but there are those who seem to be trying to muddy the water with what appears to be unsubstantiated accusations of illegal immigrants being organized to vote for his opponent. Just looking to get clarification, because nothing I'm seeing seems to support their assertion that Trump has either a majority, or a mandate.



      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 28 2016 at 2:02pm
      yeah EVERYBODY gets it
      Trump won

      the Green Party is covering the cost of any recounts so taxpayers are off the hook last I heard anyway

      but the funny thing is even Trump himself is insisting the election was "rigged"
      he's the one claiming millions of illegal votes were cast
      yet he,like some others here has provided NO evidence

      I might add that the attacks on Trump are to be EXPECTED
      they are going to be CONTINUOUS
      and ya ain't seen nothin' yet

      remember when Obama was elected?
      what was the first thing out of that slimey sleaze bag Mitch McConnel's mouth ?
      he said the Republicans were going to do everything possible to see that he was a one term President
      and that they were going to fiercely oppose him on "everything"
      and they did

      some Democrats are advocating the exact same strategy with Trump
      what was good for the goose is good for the gander
      Trump is so thin skinned and  has has such a fragile ego that the next four years are going to be interesting

      the recount effort is of minor interest,it's not going to change anything
      what I am really concerned about is his not attending daily intelligence briefings
      the Republicans promise to gut Medicare
      and the fact that the big orange pumpkin head about to  stain the halls of the White House is a climate change denier
      and you will remember the fact that the last Republican President gave us the biggest economic collapse since the Great Depression


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 10:57am
      Morons who voted for Republicans now worry they will take away their health care—as promised

      http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/29/1605167/-Morons-who-voted-for-Republicans-now-worry-they-will-take-away-their-health-care-as-promised" rel="nofollow - http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016...re-as-promised

      life is hard
      and its harder when your stupid

      they wanted it
      they voted for it
      and now its time to pay the piper


      Posted By: arirish
      Date Posted: November 29 2016 at 12:05pm


      First commercial Havana-bound flights touch down amid transition for U.S., Cuba

      http://http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/" rel="nofollow - http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/

      Does Trump Actually Want to Isolate Cuba—or Build a Golf Course ...

      http://http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/29/will_trump_wipe_out_obama_s_opening_to_cuba.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2016/11/29/will_trump_wipe_out_obama_s_opening_to_cuba.html

      -------------
      Buy more ammo!


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 30 2016 at 5:53am
      if this pile of steaming crap legislation gets passed
      my taxes are going up by at least $1200 a year
      simply because I have such a good health insurance plan

      yeah
      about that new version of "hope and change"Confused

      A closer look at Tom Price's plan to replace Obamacare

      https://www.yahoo.com/news/closer-look-tom-prices-plan-232030244.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.yahoo.com/news/closer-lo...232030244.html

      and does anybody really think those pathetic subsidies are gonna pay for an elderly persons health care anywhere as good as Medicare does now ?

      sorry old people
      you know those "death panels" you were always hearing about ?
      now your worst fears may come true
      "hope and change" Republican style
      LMAO!

      yes
      elections do indeed have consequences



      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: November 30 2016 at 11:46am

      Could This Man Be Donald Trump’s Future Secretary of Outsourcing?

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/11/17/could-this-man-be-donald-trump-s-future-secretary-of-outsourcing.html


      you choices are simple

      A.you can believe someone's WORDS

      or

      B.you can believe their ACTIONS


      YOU decide




      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 8:01am
      wow !
      here it is in your face plain as day

      Hedge fund manager 'takes glee' over how Donald Trump conned his voters

      http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2016/11/30/1605694/-Hedge-fund-manager-takes-glee-over-how-Donald-Trump-conned-his-voters

      I have to admit I was a little skeptical when I read the title of this story
      after all DKOS is quite liberal
      so maybe they slanted this just a tad ?

      HOWEVER
      it does include a DIRECT QUOTE

      YOU read YOU decide

      "

        "  Hedge fund manager Whitney Tilson was feeling happy Wednesday morning.

          After Donald Trump ridiculed Wall Street on the campaign trail, the President-elect tapped former Goldman Sachs Group Inc. executive Steven Mnuchin to be his Treasury secretary and billionaire investor Wilbur Ross to lead the Commerce Department. Trump even met with Goldman Sachs President Gary Cohn inside Trump Tower.

          It would suit Tilson just fine if voters who backed Trump because he promised to rein in Wall Street are furious now that he’s surrounding himself with bankers and billionaires.

          “I can take glee in that -- I think Donald Trump conned them,” said Tilson, who runs Kase Capital Management. “I worried that he was going to do crazy things that would blow the system up. So the fact that he’s appointing people from within the system is a good thing.”

      what was that one part again?

      “I can take glee in that -- I think Donald Trump conned them,”





      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 11:15am
      more and more Trump supporters are  waking up to the fact that they were conned

      “There Will Be Swamp”: Trump Cabinet Picks Confirm Creatures of Washington Still Rule the Earth

      http://www.shtfplan.com/conspiracy-fact-and-theory/there-will-be-swamp-trump-cabinet-picks-confirm-creatures-of-washington-still-rule-the-earth_12012016


      I was driving back from town just now,and channel surfing on the radio,I stopped on Rush Limbaughs program,why I don't know

      but he was twisting himself into a knot doing everything he could to try and justify Trump's pick for various cabinet positions

      it was absolutely sickening to hear him pander and bow and scrape

      what a TOTAL fraud that guy is


      and at this point I almost feel sorry for Trump supporters

      they've been sucker punched BIG TIME

      and that can't feel good


      what was that the one per center said again,literally laughing at the time ?

      “I can take glee in that -- I think Donald Trump conned them,”


      oh yeah

      that

      remember that word CONNED







      Posted By: arirish
      Date Posted: December 01 2016 at 4:08pm
      More than 2,000 scientists sign letter to Trump urging respect for science

      Two thousand-three hundred scientists, including 22 Nobel prize winners, have written an open letter to president-elect Donald Trump urging him to respect science and protect the Clean Air Act and the Endangered Species Act, calling those laws the "bedrock" of public health and environmental science in America.

      Trump has raised the ire of scientists and researchers several times in the last 18 months, most recently when he tweeted on Nov 2 that climate change is based on "faulty" science. Trump has also spoken of dismantling the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) and canceling the Paris climate agreement. Trump also met with several prominent anti-vaccine advocates while campaigning for the presidency.

      "Federal agencies should be led by officials with demonstrated track records of respecting science as a critical component of decision making," the letter states. "Federally funded scientists must be able to develop and share their findings free from censorship or manipulation based on politics or ideology."

      The letter was sponsored by the Union of Concerned Scientists and was signed by scientists in all 50 states.

      http://https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-documents/science-and-democracy/ucs-scientist-letter-to-trump-11-30-2016.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://s3.amazonaws.com/ucs-documents/science-and-democracy/ucs-scientist-letter-to-trump-11-30-2016.pdf

      http://http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2016/12/news-scan-dec-01-2016" rel="nofollow - http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2016/12/news-scan-dec-01-2016

      -------------
      Buy more ammo!


      Posted By: Technophobe
      Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 11:55am
      Just a joke............
                                 Does anyone else think the charges against Hilary were "Trumped up"?
                                                                                                                                                  He He...Evil Smile


      -------------
      Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


      Posted By: CRS, DrPH
      Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 6:00pm
      Red storm rising....

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html



      -------------
      CRS, DrPH


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 6:12pm
      Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

      Red storm rising....

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html



      I read an article that claimed the White House staff knew nothing about the call until after. If that's the case, he's apparently operating without any input from diplomatic staff. Scary stuff.

      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 6:56pm
      This sounded like this was a call to Trump congratulating him on his presidency win.

      However, Jimmy Carter whose presidency ended in 1981 traveled around the world like his hair was on fire for years afterwards while making peace deals. He's been vocally critical of other presidents' foreign relations policies as well as being critical of Israel. The only time that Jimmy Carter will shut up is when he dies. Obama will be no different.

      So, people on this forum are more critical of a president elect who will be sworn into office in less than 2 months than they are of past presidents who refuse to step down even after 30 years?


      Posted By: FluMom
      Date Posted: December 02 2016 at 7:24pm
      Gee you guys want some cheese with all this Whine!

      -------------
      Always Be Prepared


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 10:16am
      I can't speak for the rest, but I'm not whining. I'm genuinely scared. I think we just handed the reins to a man who is anything but honorable.

      I don't think anyone won here except Trump - he changes political affiliations to further his ambitions as easily as he switches stances and reneges on campaign promises. No wall, no special prosecutor for Clinton, no immediate repeal of the ACA, and probably no Muslim registry is just the start. I suspect a lot of Trump's supporters are going to become increasingly disillusioned with him as he shows his true colors and backtracks on many of the issues he pretended to stand for. Let's face it - draining the swamp is starting to look more like refreshing the swamp. Was a cabinet of the same old rich, white Goldman Sachs/Wall Street elites really what people envisioned when they voted for him? I doubt it.

      He hasn't even been sworn in yet, and we're already seeing the diplomatic backlash of his inexperience. The Taiwanese leader did initiate the exchange, but he didn't have to personally take the call - that's why he has diplomatic staff. And now he's apparently started to cold call a seemingly random list of foreign leaders without bothering to consult any of his advisers about the potential ramifications. Trump still looks at everything as a deal, and he's acting less like a world leader and more like a door to door vacuum cleaner salesman when he does this. Sorry to be alarmist, but for those who feared a Clinton presidency would increase the chances of global conflict, sit back and watch Trump show you how it's really done.

      I'm no fan of China's foreign or domestic policy, but this is what you get when you elect someone with no political savvy whatsoever.

      http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-taiwan-idUSKBN13R2NT" rel="nofollow - http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-taiwan-idUSKBN13R2NT




      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 1:59pm
      Trump yelled and screamed about how he would "surround himself with the BEST people"

      dear God I hope this is not an example of this

      he's not even in office yet and has already committed a MAJOR diplomatic blunder

      "the BEST" people would not have allowed this to happen
      that is their job

      major FAIL


      Posted By: Technophobe
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 4:20pm
      Despite my joking, like Jacksdad I am genuinely scared.  "When America sneezes, the world catches cold."  

      Without America resisting Russia in Syria, the Syrian government can withhold gas supplies from Turkey (This is a bit complicated but bear with me.) as a favor to Assad's friend Putin.  Turkey was going to supply this gas to Europe.  Without this second supply, and the market competition it promotes, the Russians can charge anything they like for the stuff.  Terrible news for us.

      America has military bases all around China.  Which the Chinese have tolerated rather well.  Now imagine these two senarios:

      1, A heavily armed man walks up your drive smiling and says:  "Hi there friend.  I hear you have some influence in this neighborhood.  I hope we can do business together."  

      2, A heavily armed man walks up your drive smiling and says:  "Hi there.  I just made friends with your sworn enemy." 

      #1, is the personal equivalent of the outgoing administration's approach.
      #2, is the personal equivalent of Trump taking calls from the Taiwanese government.  Admitedly Taiwan is far nicer than China and a sovreign state, but one needs to recognise the threat here.

      Finally (for now) it appears that he is recruiting faschist/racist people to be his closest aides.  Start practicing now....  Repeat after me: "Heil Trump!"  No, I'm NOT joking..  I am close to tears.




      -------------
      Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


      Posted By: FluMom
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 5:55pm
      Gee, where were you guys when Obama was elected in 2008. A community organizer, never had a real job, 2.5 years as a Senator, no executive experience at all and none of you complained. Obama has mounted up more debt than all presidents combined so all of your whining and fear,because Trump has done nothing wrong, is not logical. "All we have to fear is fear it's self."

      -------------
      Always Be Prepared


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 6:31pm
      Flumom,

      These people have watched too much of CNN, the "Clinton News Network" and have been brainwashed.

      What I don't understand, though, is how they've managed to ignore the worst for the past 8 years.

      These people will continue to vote Democrat for the following reasons.
      1) They believe that the government can do a better job of spending their money than they could.
      2) They're too irresponsible to own a gun and believe that the police can and will protect them when they experience a home invasion.
      3) They believe that illegals should have the right to free health care and social security.
      4) They don't care about paying $9,000 a year for a single person health policy because they don't mind supporting someone else who doesn't pay.
      5) They don't mind Muslim extremists crossing our southern border and actually want to roll out the welcome mat for them.

      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits"… Albert Einstein


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 03 2016 at 9:58pm
      In 2008, we were staring down the barrel of an imploding housing market, deepening recession and possible global depression, FluMom. I don't remember much to be nostalgic about in the last years of the Bush administration.

      Maybe in four years we will be looking at a significant reduction in our national debt. Personally I have no faith in Trump's ability to do it based on his plan to cut taxes (government revenue) and increase infrastructure spending, but I live in hope. And fingers crossed we'll still be around to discuss it.

      Crabby - you know we can read the posts where you talk about us to someone else, right? Ermm






      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 6:14am
      good luck to Trump in bringing back the 10 million manufacturing jobs that have been lost since 1979
      and in the next few years a whole lot of other jobs are gonna disappear too

      Apple shows ambition to get into self-driving car race

      https://ca.news.yahoo.com/apple-shows-ambition-self-driving-car-race-031119943--finance.html

      it's obvious a LOT of truck and taxi cab driver jobs will disappear in the coming years
      but a lot of other jobs are gonna go with them

      "Some analysts forecast millions of jobs will be lost once self-driving cars largely replace truck, taxi and Uber drivers, and eliminate the need for most vehicle repairs, insurance adjusters and other functions."


      FoxConn-the guys that make Apple's products
      just announced that 60,000 jobs disappeared
      why?
      the workers were replaced with robots

      and we are merely in the beginning stages
      technology is hitting like a tidal wave
      things are changing faster than society can adjust

      individuals need to think hard about their job choices
      tens of millions of  no skill or semi skilled jobs like truck drivers,waiters,and factory work
      are going to go POOF
      and NO one can change that
      I don't care how big a Luddite they might be

      Fourth Turning
      get used to it
      the years ahead are going to be TUMULTUOUS ti sat the least

      people sitting around waiting for the government to do something
      are gonna be disappointed

      Stephen Hawking defined intelligence as "the ability to ADAPT to CHANGE"

      get with the program or get left behind

      there is literally a new paradigm
      few people seem to realize this
      the "good old days" aren't coming back


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 7:34am
      Yep - absolutely right. Automation is the reason for a lot of job losses in manufacturing.



      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: CRS, DrPH
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 10:18am
      Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

      Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

      Red storm rising....

      http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/02/politics/donald-trump-taiwan/index.html



      I read an article that claimed the White House staff knew nothing about the call until after. If that's the case, he's apparently operating without any input from diplomatic staff. Scary stuff.

      There are so many reports & articles floating around, it is hard to keep track of.  

      It appears that the call was set up by Trump staff who were in Taiwan.  The call did go from Taiwan to Trump, but it was hardly innocent.  

      This is very good:

      http://www.wsj.com/articles/dispensing-with-tip-toeing-trump-puts-taiwan-in-play-1480850977" rel="nofollow - http://www.wsj.com/articles/dispensing-with-tip-toeing-trump-puts-taiwan-in-play-1480850977


      -------------
      CRS, DrPH


      Posted By: FluMom
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 10:27am
      Sure technology has taken many jobs but when a company says "We are moving to Mexico." Automation is a BS argument.

      I can tell you why United Technology/Carrier did not move...Government contracts. They do Millions and Millions with the government so I believer that the U.S. Government should only buy American! I bet that will bring back lots of companies back to the U.S. as well as better taxes, Obama Care Killed, and the onerous EPA rules repealed.

      It is time to buy American!

      -------------
      Always Be Prepared


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 2:25pm
      Carrier wasn't moving to Mexico because of automation
      it's moving because wages there are SUBSTANTIALLY lower
      3-6$ an hour vs 25-28$ in the US

      and yes Trump probably did threaten to yank lucrative government contracts to blackmail UT in to keeping a few of those Carrier jobs

      and even that was only PARTIALLY effective wasn't it?
      2100 jobs were at stake,only 800 are staying


      wages/benefits are much more in this country
      because
      gee
      we actually like to have health insurance
      and vacation and sick days
      and workers comp if we get hurt on the job

      in third world countries
      you have NO safety net

      is that what we want in this country ?

      great

      RACE TO THE BOTTOM

      read a little history
      particularly what life was like for the average person working in a factory or coal mine in the early 1900's

      that's not what I want to go back to

      the average person is QUITE ignorant of how things used to be


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 2:35pm
      I'm loving this !

      Sarah Palin Slams Donald Trump’s Carrier Deal as ‘Crony Capitalism’


      http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sarah-palin-crony-capitalism-carrier_us_58420349e4b017f37fe4c443

      Ann Coulter, Sarah Palin Already Mad at Donald Trump: ‘Big Sell-Out Is Coming

      http://www.thewrap.com/ann-coulter-sarah-palin-donald-trump-already-mad-sell-out-crony-capitalism/


      from Sarah's mouth to God's ear

      “crony capitalism” and “one big fail”


      don't kill the messenger

      I report

      YOU decideBig smile


      two of the right wings most prominent figures no less !!!








      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 5:13pm
      Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:


      Crabby - you know we can read the posts where you talk about us to someone else, right? Ermm




      What kind of posts are you talking about? I haven't privately messaged anyone and since I don't log in I can't do this anyway.

      Get over yourself.


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 04 2016 at 8:45pm
      Originally posted by Crabby Crabby wrote:

      Flumom,

      These people have watched too much of CNN, the "Clinton News Network" and have been brainwashed.

      What I don't understand, though, is how they've managed to ignore the worst for the past 8 years.

      These people will continue to vote Democrat for the following reasons.
      1) They believe that the government can do a better job of spending their money than they could.
      2) They're too irresponsible to own a gun and believe that the police can and will protect them when they experience a home invasion.
      3) They believe that illegals should have the right to free health care and social security.
      4) They don't care about paying $9,000 a year for a single person health policy because they don't mind supporting someone else who doesn't pay.
      5) They don't mind Muslim extremists crossing our southern border and actually want to roll out the welcome mat for them.

      "The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits"… Albert Einstein


      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 05 2016 at 9:58am
      Jacksdad,

      WOW! I was speaking in general terms about Democrats, but if you took my message personally, then I guess I must have hit my mark.

      It is obvious to me that you are incapable of agreeing to disagree, a poor trait for a "chief moderator".


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 05 2016 at 4:23pm
      mmm These people will continue to vote Democrat for the following reasons.
      1) They believe that the government can do a better job of spending their money than they could.
      2) They're too irresponsible to own a gun and believe that the police can and will protect them when they experience a home invasion.
      3) They believe that illegals should have the right to free health care and social security.
      4) They don't care about paying $9,000 a year for a single person health policy because they don't mind supporting someone else who doesn't pay.
      5) They don't mind Muslim extremists crossing our southern border and actually want to roll out the welcome mat for them.

      hmm
      let me go over these points one by one
      1)there is no evidence to suggest that individuals are any better at managing their finances
      do I really need to give examples ?
      2)my favorite weapon by far is a short barrel 12 gauge loaded with "home defender" type rounds,ie. a slug combined with 00
      3)no illegal aliens should not have the right to free health care or social security
      but they should never be denied life saving treatment in an emergency dept
      4)no one likes paying for health insurance but lets be honest,health care costs have ALWAYS increased
      to blame the Democrats is just plain wrong and LAZY
      wanna know why health insurance is so expensive ?
      just a few examples-I had a pt recently who was on on 28 prescription medications
      but thats not the record I had one who was actually on 36 medications

      and people are demanding unlimited access to health care,well the newest and the latest costs a hell of a lot of $$$
      one new cancer drug being advertised on tv VERY HEAVILY costs $150,000 for the initial treatment
      and then $14,000 a month after that
      I worked with a pt this weekend who gets a medication 3 times a week,it costs $3,000 a dose
      26 weeks in a year equals 78 doses equals $234,000 a year,is my math correct,?
      how many people have to pay into the insurance pool to cover just that one med for just one pt?
      so
      if Americans want that type of health care
      then my advice is shut the hell up and open your wallet
      OR
      start that brain dead and uneducated,uninformed crying about "death panels" again
      5) roll out the welcome mat ?
      seriously?
      not even gonna comment on that


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 6:24am
      Yep - what Satori said (except my favorite to shoot is a large caliber bolt action. Totally impractical, loud enough to scare everyone at the range, and soon to be joined by a pump load 12 gauge in the new year, along with another .22 semi automatic rifle so my son and I can go plinking together).




      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 7:50am
      Originally posted by Crabby Crabby wrote:

      Jacksdad,

      WOW! I was speaking in general terms about Democrats, but if you took my message personally, then I guess I must have hit my mark.

      It is obvious to me that you are incapable of agreeing to disagree, a poor trait for a "chief moderator".


      There are qualifications? Sheesh, I didn't know.

      Get real, Crabby. This is the internet, and it's a tough neighborhood. AFT differs from most in that it's actually pretty civil, and you haven't yet been booted for some of your more colorful comments. And I'm not talking about the current discussion before you start bleating about freedom of speech (which doesn't apply to those who disagree with you it appears). I'm talking about those days when you wake up with the urge to vent about how unfair the world has been to you, and decide to pay us a visit because your neighbors learned to run from the front door to their cars long ago.

      Administrators and moderators on other sites rarely conduct themselves like we do. Don't believe me? As a guest, pick a fight with a member of the moderator group on any other survivalist site and see how long you last before any or all of them descend on you like wolverines on PCP. Enjoy that fact, but don't ever assume that it gives you carte blanche to abuse it. We are undoubtedly the nicest people planning for the end of civilization as we know it, but we have limits.

      I didn't fill out an application to become one of the chief moderators, and I certainly don't get paid. In fact, I'm not even sure how long I had the title before I happened to notice it one day. Something in my online persona apparently persuaded Albert to make the change, and I'm very grateful that he did. I love this site and it means a lot to me, but I'm not aware that the promotion (if it can be called that) came with any conditions or rules about how I was to behave. So, your point is....?

      That said, I do conduct myself differently these days and attempt to stay out of anything too contentious. Commenting on the current administration is not one of them. It can hardly be characterized as having nothing to do with me, because for the next four years it will deeply impact my life in many ways. It is my business whether you like it or not, and I have every right to comment. And while our current President-elect might frown on us minions criticizing him, it certainly won't stop his many detractors any more than it stopped Obama being pilloried for eight years (in many cases, by Trump himself). It doesn't work that way. Not on Twitter, not here and not anywhere in the real world.

      Agree to disagree - seriously? What you really want is for me to shut up and stop arguing with you, so you're going to package it up all nice and polite as an inability on my part to empathize with you. And for good measure, you threw the whole "you're a bad, bad chief moderator" thing in there too? Nice try. How's that working out for you?

      Register and make yourself accountable and I'll have a lot more respect. Stomping your feet and shouting from the sidelines doesn't cut it.










      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Technophobe
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 1:07pm
      What Jacksdad said.  Except insert senior for chief.

      For what it is worth:  I think Jacksdad is a wonderful moderator, and I appreciate Albert picking him, and me.  In fact, all the moderators are now classed as friends in my eyes.


      -------------
      Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 2:49pm
      Aw shucks Embarrassed

      Seriously though, we have an amazing group of people here, no matter what the title below our screen name says. We might not always agree, but I'd like to think that we all consider ourselves a team nonetheless. And thank you, Techno Thumbs Up




      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: CRS, DrPH
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 4:58pm
      Thank you, Albert, Jacksdad, Technophobe, and everyone else who contributes to this excellent site! 

      Even you, Crabby!  LOL


      -------------
      CRS, DrPH


      Posted By: Satori
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 8:26pm
      as I've said
      technology is going to wash over society like a tidal wave

      New York Post calls Amazon's new supermarket experiment 'the end of jobs'

      https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/amazons-supermarket-experiment-slammed-end-131840212.html

      "Following the announcement, reports by Quartz and The Wall Street Journal declared the experimental store might signal the end of "millions of cashier jobs."


      Trump has his work cut out for him


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 9:22pm
      Back at ya, Chuck. I've said it before, but your expertise and insight are much appreciated here.

      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 9:40pm
      Originally posted by jacksdad jacksdad wrote:

      Originally posted by Crabby Crabby wrote:

      Jacksdad,

      WOW! I was speaking in general terms about Democrats, but if you took my message personally, then I guess I must have hit my mark.

      It is obvious to me that you are incapable of agreeing to disagree, a poor trait for a "chief moderator".



      There are qualifications? Sheesh, I didn't know.

      Agree to disagree - seriously? What you really want is for me to shut up and stop arguing with you, so you're going to package it up all nice and polite as an inability on my part to empathize with you. And for good measure, you threw the whole "you're a bad, bad chief moderator" thing in there too? Nice try. How's that working out for you?

      Register and make yourself accountable and I'll have a lot more respect. Stomping your feet and shouting from the sidelines doesn't cut it.



      Here's the difference between you and me. When I say something that you find offensive you go out of your way to attack me or put me down. I make general comments until someone, like you, makes it personal. If you dish it out, then you better be able to take it right back. I won't be bullied or ganged up on by you or the other mods here. If you want accountability, try looking in the mirror first. I'm not saying that you're a narcissist, but I've been trained by the best of them and know how to deal with bullies. You're the one who has consistently sought out my comments to start an argument, NOT the other way around.

























      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 10:18pm
      So I'm the thin skinned one, huh?

      http://www.avianflutalk.com/to-jacksdad_topic35811.html" rel="nofollow - http://www.avianflutalk.com/to-jacksdad_topic35811.html


      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 10:22pm
      Jacksdad, you're just a typical internet bully who can't stand someone who you disagree with. Then you make it personal by becoming sarcastic and dogging their posts.


      Posted By: jacksdad
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 11:02pm
      So let me get this straight - in the past few months, you've attacked more groups or individuals because of their race or political leanings than I've been able to keep track of, and you're the one getting personally offended?







      -------------
      "Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
      "Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.


      Posted By: Guests
      Date Posted: December 06 2016 at 11:24pm
      I've simply stated my beliefs, nothing more. I have a right to my opinions without being bullied in the process. It took a lot of courage to be this honest and all I got for that was bullying and censorship rather than an open and honest discussion that I had hoped for.

      Bullies try to intimidate their targets by using sarcastic and subtle put downs intended to make the target uneasy without quite knowing why.   If the target tries to call them out, the bullies tell the target things like(to quote you) “Stomping your feet and shouting from the sidelines doesn't cut it.”

      Some bullies can be well-respected moderators who assume a leadership role. They use their position to intimidate and assert their morality on people with whom they take offense with. They will try and behave properly, but preach about forum behavior. Their put downs are subtle, sarcastic, and designed to intimidate.

      The bottom line is that I have a right to my opinions without being bullied and having my posts dogged by you. For some reason you just won't leave me alone.


      Posted By: Technophobe
      Date Posted: December 07 2016 at 2:45am
      I have been on this site for a couple of years Crabby.  Jacksdad has worked hard for all that time gently and politely calming aggressive people down.  You class as one of those!

      You astound me with your descriptions (and thank you for that, I simply would never have thought of them) of internet bullying techniques.  'And yes you do have a right to your opinions.  But, so does Jacksdad, and he seems to be the more polite person in this debate. 

      Part of being a moderator on this site is to protect the people who would be deeply offended by some of the things said.  Your posts, though rightly self-promoted as "courageous", are offensive too.  You seem to enjoy picking fights, insulting minorities and upsetting our generally nice members.  You can call me sad for it if you like, but I consider the members here as friends.  I will not be told that I or Jacksdad cannot defend them. (Not all our members are white after all.  My husband is mixed race.)  But don't call Jacksdad a troll.  Especially not as your behavior is so much worse!


      -------------
      Absence of proof is not proof of absence.



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