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No Brexit =The end of democracy

Printed From: Avian Flu Talk
Category: General Discussion
Forum Name: Off Topic Discussion
Forum Description: (In other news... current events happening now)
URL: http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=39017
Printed Date: October 18 2019 at 9:18am


Topic: No Brexit =The end of democracy
Posted By: carbon20
Subject: No Brexit =The end of democracy
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 1:47am
not sure how people feel about this,
But when the majority voted for something isn't it the job of the polticians to follow through.....
Or am I missing something.....

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT



Replies:
Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 2:29am
I think it is a bit more complicated. Scotland and Northern Ireland (and even Wales I belief) want to stay in the EU. In my opinion it would have been a good idea to leave open the chance for a second referendum.

That vote could be on the (final) brexit-deal or even if the UK-at such a divided bases-should continu on its route.

If I lived in the UK I may have voted for a Brexit hoping for EU reforms-not because I think the UK is better of without the EU at all costs.

The EU is NOT democratic, there were many mistakes made (for instance the Euro turns out to be damaging south European economies).

Still the Brexit is turning both the UK and EU in a further political crisis. A sort of "Hotel California" you can never leave.

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 6:41am
Yes I think you right on that one DJ

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 06 2019 at 8:41am
Coca Cola sponsored the Romanian EU presidency, first half 2019, the second halve-Finish presidency is sponsored by BMW. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-presidency-sponsor-coca-cola-romania-finland-bmw-europe-a9008096.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-presidency-sponsor-coca-cola-romania-finland-bmw-europe-a9008096.html

DJ-Of course the US politics is also sponsored by Coca Cola, Boeing, Haliburton etc. In a democrazy every $,€ or Yen counts !

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: CRS, DrPH
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 12:47am
I'm quite torn by this topic, having lived and worked in Britain in the early & mid 1990s (Exeter, Devon UK was my base of operations).

On the one hand, I am sympathetic to those Brits who chafe at the restrictions of the EU government, and seek more independence. On the other, it seems to make sense for the Brits to remain, unless they can find a more suitable alternative.

What I had come up with was the UK joining the USA, Canada and Mexico in the NAFTA process. This would create a juggernaut of industrial & technological might, and would unite the largest English speaking populations on the planet.

It would appear that the appearance of Mr. Trump would sour this relationship, but he won't last long, so who knows?

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CRS, DrPH


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 11:53am
NAFTA would answer my prayers.

I am a Brexiteer, without regrets.

I love the idea of the European Union, like the vast majority of Europeans, recognise the enormity of the economic benefits it offers us and fear the political repurcussions of leaving. So why want Brexit?

I believe in democracy. Without it we have Dictatorship, Royal rule or Oligarchy. Anyone who has read any history at all, or even watched "Game of Thrones" can see where that could lead.

The EEC claims to be democratic, and in many ways it is; but not completely. Parts of its structure are oligarchic and the referendum we originally held in the 70s was to join an economic union, not a federal or political one.

So, although I loved being an European, I want out!!!

Like many of my countrymen I am getting frustrated at the quislings in our parliament (traitors to a man!!) who continue to block our exit.

The really terrifying truth now emerging is that our own 'democracy' is really an oligarchy in disguise. Perhaps it is time for a revolution.

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: WillobyBrat
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 12:16pm
As a point of interest, I am a Brexiteer and I am also old enough to remember the last throes of the British Empire, The British Commonwealth, The Commonwealth of Nations, The EEC (which we voted for) and the EU (which we did not vote for). I say, without prejudice, that all those who go against the wishes of the British peoples vote, which was legally binding, to come out of the EU are guilty of treason against Her Majesty's subjects and High Treason against Her Majesty: by causing a loss of her powers over the British People.

As it is now obvious that our communist-loving Labour Party and the stupid and childish members of all other parties (except the Brexit Party) are incapable of carrying out the legal wishes of the British People, I feel it is wholly appropriate that her Majesty's armed forces should take control of Parliament, remove Britain from the EU and protect the royal family: until a written constitution (similar to that of the USA) could be brought into parliamentary law and action. Then and only then do I (and many others) believe that the 5 Eyes could form a communal union, capable of protecting Western values, peace and economics.



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I like Ike


Posted By: FluMom
Date Posted: September 07 2019 at 8:32pm
I believe Willobrat and Techno are correct, the Brits gave away their rights to the EU. They need to exit. I just do not understand why Parliament has to agree to how they exit. Just leave how ever they have to get out. With Trump in office we will do a fair trade deal good for all of us. We have always backed the British People and they have always backed the U.S. we must remain strong together in this crazy world.

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Always Be Prepared


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 12:39am
A good description on the UK situation https://theduran.com/brexit-elections-resignation-what-is-boris-up-to-video/" rel="nofollow - https://theduran.com/brexit-elections-resignation-what-is-boris-up-to-video/

(In short; conservatives moving towards brexit, labour moving to stay. But only elections when or labour or conservertives or UKIP/Farange can win. Basic-wether you call it another referendum or elections the politicians put the question again back to the voters. Labour could go-after a Corbyn victory-a second referendum with a choice between no deal brexit or stay in the EU. Both parties are very divided themselves-for now. BoJo may kick pro-EU members out of the conservative party.

The chaos will not end soon. https://theduran.com/when-rogues-prorogue-parliament/" rel="nofollow - https://theduran.com/when-rogues-prorogue-parliament/ Of course another point is that Brexit-chaos is what the EU wants to stop other countries from even thinking of leaving the EU.)

https://www.conferencecall.co.uk/blog/are-businesses-leaving-the-uk-because-of-brexit/" rel="nofollow - https://www.conferencecall.co.uk/blog/are-businesses-leaving-the-uk-because-of-brexit/ also Discovery/TLC and Bloomberg moving to Amsterdam. https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/01/11/brexit-discovery-moves-european-hq-to-amsterdam/" rel="nofollow - https://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2019/01/11/brexit-discovery-moves-european-hq-to-amsterdam/ , https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-09/brexit-s-corporate-refugee-numbers-in-netherlands-set-to-swell" rel="nofollow - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-02-09/brexit-s-corporate-refugee-numbers-in-netherlands-set-to-swell

https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands" rel="nofollow - https://nltimes.nl/2019/08/21/scotland-proposes-new-post-brexit-ferry-route-netherlands

DJ-Some sort of Brexit is getting real even when politics fail. Companies make their own plans. The voters will become very frustrated over present political system(s).

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 3:13pm
Thank you, FluMom for your comment and support.

In answer to your question: " I just do not understand why Parliament has to agree to how they exit." Because our 'democracy' is an illusion. What we really have is a quiasi-democratic oligarchy. Our parliamentary system works democratically for most of the time, but when the politicians dissagree with the people, like they do now now, they appear to be able to block us.

I understand their point. Leaving the EU is tantamount to economic suicide (at least in the short term) and the deal thrashed out between the EU and Theresa May was frankly laughable. Our pound is plummeting and several large manufacturers have already moved elsewhere. Worse, the Irish troubles may resurface without an open EU border and sectarianism has already raised its ugly head.

These things terrify me! But they do not scare me half as much as the prospect of diminishing democracy. Democracy underlies ALL of the security of the people - ALL OF IT!! To think otherwise is either to fail to understand history's most vital lesson or (and, sadly, I think this the current case) to put the profits of industry above the needs/rights of the people. They have shown their true colours. Many of us will never forget this; nor forgive it.

Spot on DJ! Our confusion is encouraged to discourage others from leaving. I can't blame the EU for this, they are just protecting their own interests as all countries do. I blame David Cameron for failing to have a published plan in place BEFORE throwing open the referendum.

There is a lighter side. Our house of commons has seating arranged either side of the floor, with the ruling party on one side and the opposition on the other. There is a small section of this arrangement reserved for the MPs thrown out of their party for ignoring the whip. (As the rebel Conservatives found out - in accordance with your prediction DJ.) I found out on Thursday this is called: "The naughty corner." How appropriate for the bunch of toddlers guiding our country! I'm still laughing.

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: FluMom
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 5:37pm
Ok so the politicians do not like the vote but I would not let them get a do over vote. That would make votes mean nothing. People need to take to the streets and tell them to GET OUT! Time for the Brits to stand up and tell the politicians to do what you told them to do!!!

I did that when we had the Viet Nam war along with a lot of others...it worked.


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Always Be Prepared


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 9:46pm
Techno, Willoby, how does the "brexit-chaos" (created, planned-I can not see it in another way) work out for Scottish independence ? Is there a chance for a new referendum on that ?

In my opinion maybe also a referendum in Ireland over Northern Ireland. The "troubles" (=civil war) did cost 1000's of lives and meant "IRA "moderate rebels" (partly funded from the US) were all over Europe doing bussiness with other "groups" (terrorists) and countries like Libya.

I also think EU is moving towards EurAsia integration, the UK may be moving towards the US/NAFTA. Your opinion(s) ?

We-and France-voted against the EU constitution, only to see it changed in a treaty. The oligarchy never gives up power. Money=power. Democracy is a way to avoid uprising. (But it is acting, theatre).

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 10:49pm
Some "news"/statistics;

Dutch investments in UK 2016 50 bilion € 2018 -11 bilion €
UK investments in Netherlands 14 "        2018 80 bilion €

speaking of "oligarchy" or "every € counts-democracy".

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 08 2019 at 11:02pm
Techno,you are not the only person I know to say that Democracy comes FIRST AND FOREMOST,even some Remainers have said it too me

The People voted OUT .....

So that what it MUST BE

For Good or Bad ......

It's the will of the MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE......

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 09 2019 at 3:05am
Exactly! Right or wrong, WILL OF THE PEOPLE!

As regards Scottish independence:

Although second referenda are usually taking the P*** (Best of three, 5, 7, 9? - Ive got to get the result I want in the end!) , I believe this to be an exception. The referendum on independence was both tight and just before the EU referendum. Most Scots voted to remain in the EU. I think the terms have changed fundamentally as a result. I would prefer to remain in the United Kingdom, but Democracy first!! Alpha and Omega!

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: EdwinSm,
Date Posted: September 09 2019 at 10:39pm
One problem here, is that people do change their minds, and somehow democracy has to account for that. Usually it is a voting again after a period of time (usually 4 to 6 years in various western parliamentary democracies). Because of this there should be a second vote, after people had time to see what their first vote actually meant. *

A close referendum is not really a clear sign either way. The trouble is a new Brexit Referendum might also be close! Also the wording of referendums can be slanted to give a desired result. The current UK mess seems to be in part because there where three main divisions but the referendum only gave two choices. The three are a)Leave at any cost b) Leave with a deal   c) Remain.


* I also think that this should apply if the SNP gets the chance for another vote on Scottish Independence.    Too often people only have a vague idea of what they want, and when shown the results of what they asked for they often say "That's not really what I wanted".


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 10 2019 at 4:52am
Not what you say....

It's the way you say it.....

Or the way it's percivied

Or portrayed in the media/cyberworld

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 10 2019 at 2:17pm
You can't replay the original referendum; that would insult/negate/ignore the first result. What is done should stand. Anything else is undemoctatic by default.

You can clarify: What type of brexit? When? How? etc.. This probably should be done. Part of our current problems stem from the lack of clarity about what berxit means.

Another problem stems from the fact that out of the 650 House of Commons members, there are 651 versions of an ideal brexit.

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 10 2019 at 6:46pm
What gets me is each politician keeps crapping on about "their"
Electorate,when in fact they should follow through with what the MAJORITY voted for....

Brexit.....

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 10 2019 at 10:18pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_IRA_attacks_in_the_Netherlands" rel="nofollow - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1988_IRA_attacks_in_the_Netherlands

DJ-One of the Brexit-points that need(ed) good clarification is how to deal with (Northern) Ireland.

"We" (as a person, Dutch, European) can not accept that a hard Brexit starts another civil war in Ireland (out of stupidity). One thingh we have learned is that terrorism is hardly ever isolated.

A restart of terrorism in Ireland will-most likely-mean an increase of (this time "nationalistic") terrorism elsewere.

Another point is-would it be a good idea to say you need a minimum of ten years (for instance) between referendums on the same issue (wether Scottish independence-wich may see Scotland becoming an EU member, or the Brexit) ?

UK politics failed in starting the Brexit-proces (by having a referendum) without a good plan. (The EU also should have rules for exit. In a way they have-a expensive legal cost proces for unbinding al kind of treaties/contracts etc.)

651 forms of Brexit=political failure !

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 11 2019 at 10:19pm
Northern Ireland....

Give it all back to the Irish....

That would stop the silly
Orange Day parades.....(Williams fault)

Let's get over 600 years of Occupation by the

British

There solved.....lol

That's speaking as my Father's son....

The Irish side of me....

Think others will Wail....lol

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 11 2019 at 10:25pm
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England" rel="nofollow - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_III_of_England

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 11 2019 at 11:31pm
When Northern Ireland would become Irish-the "religion problem" would become Irish as well.

A compromise could be to exclude N.Ireland from the Brexit. But that would suggest some sort of deal...

(William III/Willem also hints at the European link-William was also ruling the Dutch Republic back then.)

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 12 2019 at 1:48am
Yes be good for Europe to deal with Ireland's

Secterian violence....

Free Ireland from the Brit's......

LMAO

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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 12 2019 at 3:58pm
Although (being mostly Irish) I would love to see the country re-unified, I suspect this would just mean the other side became the guerilla freedom fighters/terrorists (depending on your viewpoint). Ireland would now bear the majority of the "troubles".

Ireland is not sure she wants this.

Worse, the loyalist side was quite nasty when they were on the winning side. God alone knows how they would take being on the losing one - (and he/she remains silently mysterious).

This one will not go away so easily. Whatever the outcome, someone will get the hump and behave atrociously.

There are even Republican marches to match the Orange ones. "Nah na na na na, we beat you!" is not confined to one childish side alone.

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: Dutch Josh
Date Posted: September 13 2019 at 12:36pm
As an example of "history-mix";

From https://www.gelderlander.nl/arnhem-e-o/prins-charles-opent-de-toren-van-de-arnhemse-eusebiuskerk~a98c1c47/" rel="nofollow - https://www.gelderlander.nl/arnhem-e-o/prins-charles-opent-de-toren-van-de-arnhemse-eusebiuskerk~a98c1c47/

google translate;

ARNHEM - The English prince Charles opens the restored tower of the Eusebius church in Arnhem on Saturday 21 September. There he unveils a plaque in honor of 75 years of the Battle of Arnhem and visits the church.

He also comes to the Polish memorial in Driel, where the Polish paratroopers are commemorated who were involved in Operation Market Garden in World War II.

Crowded
The Prince of Wales has a packed program that Saturday. It was previously announced that he is visiting the Airborne Museum in Oosterbeek and that he and Princess Beatrix are present at the commemoration of the air landings on the Ginkelse Heide.

The Eusebiuskerk was almost completely destroyed during the Battle of Arnhem. Only the broken tower still stood above the ruins of the city. A day before Charles' visit there is a memorial in the church with a large number of international guests and veterans. Charles himself was also 25 years ago at a memorial ceremony in the church.

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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 13 2019 at 4:25pm
I agree Techno,(odd that lol)

However:

The violence might stop ,because England has been taken out of the equation,

All the Unionists would be entitled to go to the mainland ,

On boats as refugees....

Fleeing,,...

Catholic oppression.......LMAO





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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 16 2019 at 10:29am
Sadly, Carbon: NO CHANCE! Just look at the same racial mix in Glasgow.

The supporters of Glasgow Rangers are Scots who think they are English and the supporters of Glasgow Celtic are Scots who know they are Irish. Violence at games between these two "Old Firm" teams is common and widespread.

As a point of interest: I am 1/4 Scottish, 1/4 Welsh and 1/2 Irish. I'm mean when crossed! The old joke of: "For me Father he was Orange and me Mother she was Green." applies to me. My childhood was quite violent. My original understanding of marriage was an excuse to try to kill each other.

My whole race are a bunch of violent a***h***s! I can say it!

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.


Posted By: carbon20
Date Posted: September 16 2019 at 11:49pm

I think you can say that about the Human race.....


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12 Monkeys...............
1995 ‧ Science fiction film/Thriller ‧ 2h 11m a must for AFT


Posted By: Technophobe
Date Posted: September 17 2019 at 12:47pm
No arguments from me on that one, Carbon.

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Absence of proof is not proof of absence.



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