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SECONDARY PNEUMONIA FROM SEVERE FLU

Printed From: COVID-19 / South Africa Omicron Variant
Category: Coronavirus Pandemic: Prepping Forums
Forum Name: Medical Intervention & Prevention
Forum Description: (Medical interventions & natural remedies for potential pandemic causing viruses)
URL: http://www.avianflutalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=410
Printed Date: March 28 2024 at 9:37am


Topic: SECONDARY PNEUMONIA FROM SEVERE FLU
Posted By: Guests
Subject: SECONDARY PNEUMONIA FROM SEVERE FLU
Date Posted: January 05 2006 at 7:41pm
IMPORTANT TOPIC!
  
GETTING THE PNEUMONIA VACCINATION MAY SAVE LIVES IN A FLU PANDEMIC:
 
GETTING THE PNEUMONIA VACCINATION AHEAD OF TIME - BEFORE A PANDEMIC BEGINS - IS THE BEST WAY TO SURVIVE.
 
As with any strain of flu, secondary "complications" to the flu can be lethal.  The primary lethal complication is when a bacterial pneumonia infection develops . It's the secondary pneumonia that actually kills.  Therefore, if you can keep the secondary pneumonia from developing, then although you still may get sick in a flu pandemic, you won't die.   

There are two ways to prevent the lethal pneumonia. You can either purchase antibiotics in advance as they will not be available during a pandemic, or you can simply get a pneumonia vaccination. People need to strongly encourage their friends and families to get the vaccination.  During the Flu pandemic of 1918, the initial vaccine used was a pneumonia vaccination.

 
GOOD ARTICLE TO READ ON RECENT FINDINGS:
 
 
ScienceDaily (Oct. 11, 2007)  Often called the most devastating epidemic in the recorded history of the world, the 1918 influenza virus pandemic was responsible for more than 40 million deaths across the globe. The incredible lethality of the 1918 flu strain is not well understood, despite having been under intense scrutiny for many years. Now, a new study published by Cell Press in the October issue of the journal Cell Host & Microbe unravels some of the mystery surrounding the devastating 1918 pandemic and provides key information that will help prepare for future pandemics.
 

It is relatively rare for an influenza virus to be virulent enough to cause death in healthy humans. Many deaths associated with influenza are caused by the combined influence of viral disease and the following secondary bacterial infection. Although the 1918 pandemic strain was one of the few influenza viruses capable of killing healthy victims on its own, the majority of fatal cases from the "Spanish Flu" can be attributed to secondary bacterial pathogens rather than primary viral disease. This important interaction between influenza viruses and bacteria is not well understood.

Dr. Jonathan A. McCullers from the Department of Infectious Diseases at St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis, Tennessee and colleagues examined this interaction by studying a newly discovered influenza A virus (IAV) protein, called PB1-F2. The gene encoding PB1-F2 is present in nearly all IAVs, including highly pathogenic avian IAVs that have infected humans and the IAV associated with the 1918 pandemic. "PB1-F2 was recently shown to enhance viral pathogenicity in a mouse infection model, raising questions about its effects on the secondary bacterial infections associated with high levels of influenza morbidity and mortality," explains Dr. McCullers.

The researchers found that expression of PB1-F2 increased the incidence of and exacerbated secondary bacterial pneumonia in a mouse model. Intranasal delivery of a synthetic peptide derived from a portion of PB1-F2 had the same effects. Further, an influenza virus engineered to express a version of PB1-F2 identical to that in the 1918 pandemic strain was more virulent in mice and led to more severe bacterial pneumonia, explaining in part both the unparalleled virulence of the 1918 strain and the high incidence of fatal pneumonia during the pandemic.

The finding that PB1-F2 promotes lung pathology in primary viral infection and secondary bacterial infection also provides critical information for the future. "Given the importance of IAV as a leading cause of virus-induced morbidity and mortality year in and year out, and its potential to kill tens of millions in the inevitable pandemic that may have its genesis in the viruses currently circulating in southeast Asia, it is imperative to understand the role of PB1-F2 in IAV pathogenicity in humans and animals," says Dr. McCullers. "These findings also reinforce the recent suggestion of the American Society for Microbiology that nations should stockpile antibiotics for the next pandemic, since many of the deaths during this event are likely to be caused by bacterial super-infections."

Reference: McAuley et al.: "Expression of the 1918 Influenza A Virus PB1-F2 Enhances the Pathogenesis of Viral and Secondary Bacterial Pneumonia." Publishing in Cell Host & Microbe 2, 240--249, October 2007. DOI 10.1016/j.chom.2007.09.001 

The researchers include Julie L. McAuley of Department of Infectious Diseases, St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis; Felicita Hornung of Laboratory of Viral Diseases, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda; Kelli L. Boyd of Animal Resources Center, St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis; Amber M. Smith of Department of Mathematics, University of Utah in Salt Lake City; Raelene McKeon of Department of Infectious Diseases, St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis; Jack Bennink and Jonathan W. Yewdell of Laboratory of Viral Diseases, National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases in Bethesda; and Jonathan A. McCullers of Department of Infectious Diseases, St. Jude Children's Research Hospital in Memphis.

This work was supported by the NIH the NIAID intramural research program, and the American Lebanese Syrian Associated Charities (ALSAC).

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071010120543.htm - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/10/071010120543.htm

 
 
 
ANOTHER INTERESTING ARTICLE: 
 
 
 
Pneumococcal vaccine urged in flu pandemic plan
 
MONTREAL -- U.S. plans for an influenza virus pandemic should include a strong recommendation for bacterial pneumonia vaccination, as this measure has been shown to reduce influenza mortality by up to 50%, said Dr. Keith Klugman.

"Among the 18 fundamental points in the U.S. pandemic plan, there is little mention of bacterial vaccines. I believe their role is significant and has not been considered up until now," he said at an international conference on community-acquired pneumonia.

Although the influenza virus alone can be fatal, the risk of death is greater with secondary pneumococcal infection, said Dr. Klugman, professor of infectious diseases and the William H. Foege Chair of Global Health at Emory University, Atlanta.

"The combination of bacterial superinfection and influenza is highly fatal. It's a huge problem, and it's not a small part of influenza mortality and morbidity," he said in an interview.

Evidence that pneumococcal infection played a major role in the 1918 influenza pandemic "'is substantial, but seems to have been forgotten," Dr. Klugman recently wrote in a letter to the editor (Science 2007;316:49-50).

He cited historical evidence of culturable pneumococci in the blood of at least half of the survivors and victims of influenza in two studies (Br. Med. J. 1919; 1:3-5; JAMA 1918;71:1735).

And a randomized, controlled trial by Dr. Klugman and his colleagues has shown that, in children, vaccination against the pneumococcal bacteria results in a 31% decrease in pneumonias associated with respiratory viruses (Nat. Med. 2004; 10:811-3).

"Because of the vaccine, they are not getting the superinfection that brings them to the hospital," he said at the meeting, which was sponsored by the International Society of Chemotherapy. "I think people have known for years that there can be bacterial superinfections with influenza, but they just didn't realize how common they were and how much of a role they play."

The 23-valent pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine (PPM 23) is currently recommended in adults older than 65 years, but giving the 7-valent pneumococcal conjugate vaccine (PCV 7) to children is more protective against bacterial pneumonia in the adult population, he said.

Data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention show that adult infections with the seven pneumococcal strains covered in the children's vaccine have decreased, while infections from the other 16 strains covered by the adult vaccine have increased.

"The burden of disease in adults has been impacted more by giving the conjugate vaccine to children than by giving the 23-valent vaccine to adults," Dr. Klugman said.

This has led some investigators to ask whether adults might benefit by being immunized using the children's conjugate vaccine. (See box, "Giving Adults the Children's Conjugate Vaccine May Backfire, Researchers Say".)

Also, a new study (Lancet 2007;369:1179-86) offers the first evidence that vaccinating children protects adults against all pneumococcal pneumonia, not just bacteremic pneumococcal pneumonia, he said.

Improving pneumococcal vaccine coverage in children could result in major reductions in infection across all ages, he said.

"Only about 60% of kids currently get the full four doses of the conjugate vaccine, and it's that fourth dose that induces the full immunity and stops transmission, so we need to do a much better job of immunizing kids."

REALTED ARTICLE: Giving adults the children's conjugate vaccine may backfire, researchers say.

Is there a role for giving the children's conjugate vaccine to adults?

A recent study suggested that it may not be as simple as that (Vaccine 2007;25:4029-37). Immunogenicity among elderly patients (aged 70-79 years) who were given the children's dose of conjugate vaccine was "nothing to get overly excited about," Dr. Klugman said. "Perhaps the dose designed for a primary response in kids is not enough for adults," he suggested.

And a study presented at the 2006 International Symposium on Pneumococci and Pneumococcal Diseases by Dr. Andres de Roux, of the Universitat Autonoma de Barcelona, and colleagues suggested that the administration of the children's conjugate vaccine to elderly patients within 1 year of giving them the polysaccharide vaccine could actually suppress immunity.

"It seems the adult vaccine interferes with the response to the conjugate, which is a concern, because it means we can't simply give the conjugate to people who have previously had the [23-valent vaccine]. There will have to be a strategy, and it seems that certainly the conjugate needs to be given before the 23-valent," Dr. Klugman said.

Dr. Klugman said that in his opinion, a new conjugate vaccine, with coverage of more strains than the current one, will eventually replace the PPV 23 for adults.

ARTICLES BY KATE JOHNSON

http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/167306371.html - http://www.entrepreneur.com/tradejournals/article/167306371.html

 
 
 
 
 




    



Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 05 2006 at 8:10pm
We all have ours!  $60.00 a pop but 2 of our 4 insurances actually paid for them so it was only $120.00 total...the bargain of the year as far as I'm concerned.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 05 2006 at 11:08pm
I got a booster shot last week. (Free under my health plan, Pacific Care)

I started getting the pneumonia shot about 20 years ago.  When the immunity conferred starts to wear off, I get another shot. 

Almost died as a child from pneumonia and as an adult, when the immunity wears off, I start to get chest congestion and colds.  A week after getting the shot, all colds and chest problems go away for years. It works for me.


Posted By: AuntBones
Date Posted: January 06 2006 at 5:29am
Last week I went to my doctor's office, nurse gave me my vaccine.


Posted By: libbyalex
Date Posted: January 06 2006 at 5:47am
Got my pneumonia vaccine a few weeks ago. Unfortunately, spouse and 3 year old DS haven't been able to get one. -- Libby


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 7:45am

It sounds like there are a lot of people that are going to get their pneumonia vaccinations this week.  Lets hope this list grows this week!   Everybody needs to get their pneumonia vax right now - And then confirm that you received it by posting the news on this thread.

Here is why...

As we know, once you get the this flu, the secondary bacterial pneumonia sets in within 48 hours.  So it's actually the bacterial  pneumonia that kills.  Therefore, if you can hold off the pneumonia from developing, you will live!

Here is where it gets interesting .... did you know that the primary components of the original Spanish Flu vaccine was actually a simple  pneomonia vaccination?  Again, although they would still get the flu, they wouldn't die.  What this means is that if you go get a pneumonia vaccination today, you and your family will most likely survive. 

Please folks .... this is a no brainer .... if you want to survive this super plague I would strongly suggest getting a pneumonia vaccination today.   You owe it to your families to do this, IMO.    Don't gamble with their lives and get this done!

Here is what I'm talking about....

"Among the few successful medicines doctors used during the Spanish flu were privately made vaccines for bacterial pneumonia. Today we have something called the http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-ppv.pdf - pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine . One injection protects against 23 types of pneumococcal bacteria http://www.merck.com/mrkshared/mmanual/section13/chapter152/152a.jsp - for a lifetime , so you don't have to wait until you're ill or even until there's a pandemic to be inoculated. Bacteria never develop resistance against it, as they do with antibiotics, and it will provide protection against any strain of flu, be it human or avian. A http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/EID/vol9no5/02-0321.htm - computer model in the Netherlands found that giving this vaccine to just 17 percent of the population prevented 3.5 percent of expected deaths directly and fully a fourth of all hospitalizations. Beds would be scarce during any pandemic and freeing them up would translate into better care for the sick and even more lives saved. "



Posted By: Marjo
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 9:15am
Hi,

I made an appointment for next monday (couldn't get it sooner ).

When I called they asked which kind of pneumo vaccination I wanted...
Are different kinds??? Which one should I ask for?

Marjo,
The Netherlands



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 9:43am

Hi Marjo.

This is the one you want.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-ppv.pdf - pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine .

Tell them that it's the one that protects against 23 types of pneumococcal bacteria.   I Believe it's the standard one these days, but make sure tell them it's for 23 types.  



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 9:46am

Also, once you get your vaccination, please come back here and post it on this thread to confirm it.  We're trying to see how long we can get this thread with vaccination confirmations LOL.    

We will be watching on Monday



Posted By: mountain
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 11:08am
i walked into a clinic and got mine on 23 dec 05, $35.00 in vegas


Posted By: Marjo
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 12:25pm
Hi Albert,

thanks for the info!
I'll make sure to get the right one


Marjo,
The Netherlands


Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Hi Marjo.

This is the one you want.

http://www.cdc.gov/nip/publications/VIS/vis-ppv.pdf -




Posted By: meewee
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 3:14pm

Just got back from getting mine!  Cost $30.00 What a relief!

Meewee



-------------
God Bless us all!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 3:17pm

Good job Meewee!   

Mountain, you're on top of this thingt!   Glad to hear you got it done early! 

 



Posted By: meewee
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 3:23pm

 TY TY TYVM ! I feel much better now Albert!

Meewee



-------------
God Bless us all!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 3:32pm

I think $30.00 is the cheapest yet.  I hold the record for the most expensiive one.  Mine was $119.00.  And then I took my wife and brother to the same clinic and theirs were $70.00?  I didn't say anything....

I'm not sure if anyone can beat $30.00, except possibly "concerned" or "IdahoGirl".  They work in healthcare .... 

 



Posted By: meewee
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 3:40pm

Used to work in the health care industry and now work for the school district in the cafeteria. Doc knows how prone I am to pneumonia and has been pestering me for years to get one...Only got the courage now thanks to you and this web-site Albert!

Meewee



-------------
God Bless us all!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 5:13pm

hubby and i are getting ours on thursday at the department of health for $35.00 each.  no appointment needed and age not a factor - they don't even want identification - just the $$$$$

 

kathie



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 5:25pm

I go to get my shot in the next couple of days! I do want to clarify that there is bacteria and viral Pneumonia. I will be using the VA and my husbands insurance, so it costs me nothing.

 

I have included in order of concern:

 

Complicated Influenza

         Primary viral pneumonia

         Secondary bacterial pneumonia

         Bacterial sinusitis

         Myositis

         Myocarditis / pericarditis

         Guillian-Barre syndrome

         Reyes Syndrome

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 9:22pm
Originally posted by KillerFlu.net KillerFlu.net wrote:

I go to get my shot in the next couple of days! I do want to clarify that there is bacteria and viral Pneumonia.

 

Killer,

Is there a vaccine for Viral Pneumonia?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 10:00pm

It's the secondary pneumonia that we have to be careful of in this case.  



Posted By: LizG
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 10:28pm
Hi I got mine 2 weeks ago. Didn't cost anything up here in Canada. I was happy, my daughter will get hers later this week.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 10 2006 at 10:39pm

Good job liz....   That's the cheapest price in Canada yet LOL.

Glad to hear your daughter's will be done this week.  This disease seems to be particularly hard on the young because of the pneumonia.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 5:53am
Originally posted by Appalled Appalled wrote:

Originally posted by KillerFlu.net KillerFlu.net wrote:

I go to get my shot in the next couple of days! I do want to clarify that there is bacteria and viral Pneumonia.

 

Killer,

Is there a vaccine for Viral Pneumonia?

The simple answer is no, however, the bacterial pneumonia vaccine may protect against viral cases ( http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-11-vaccine_x.htm - http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-11-vaccine_x.htm ) This shot most likely will help. Remember this flu's side effects are reported in this order of complication:

        

 

Primary viral pneumonia (this is the most deadly complication of the Avian Flu) According to a Medical Briefing on January 4 2006

         Secondary bacterial pneumonia (this is what the vaccination is for, however it can help against the viral also)

         Bacterial sinusitis

         Myositis

         Myocarditis / pericarditis

         Guillian-Barre syndrome

         Reyes Syndrome

Children under 2 can not get the Pneumococcal vaccination due to their bodies do not react to it. You may also have to get your older childrens shots scheduled at the community health agency, due to their age. Some states will not permit the doctors to write a script or vaccinate in their offices anymore. Young children get RSV easily, so keep them away from the sick. The pneumonia vaccine is generally given once, although revaccination after 3-5 years should be considered for children with nephrotic syndrome, asplenia, or sickle cell anemia who would be less than 11 years old at revaccination. Revaccination should also be considered for high-risk adults who received their first shot six years ago or more, and for those who are shown to have rapid decline in pneumococcal antibody levels.

Notes: The major types of pneumonia are bacterial pneumonia, viral pneumonia, and mycoplasma pneumonia.

Best tips for both viral and bacterial pneumonia:

  • Drink warm fluids to relieve coughing.
  • Use an ultrasonic humidifier in your bedroom to add moisture to the air. (Ultrasonic humidifiers kill bacteria and molds in the water.)
  • Rest.
  • Don't rush your recovery. It can takes weeks to get your full strength back.
  • Don't smoke.
  • Treatment: Early treatment with antibiotics can cure bacterial pneumonia and speed recovery from mycoplasma pneumonia. There are generally no effective treatments for most types of viral pneumonia, which usually heal on their own.

I hope that this helps?!



Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 3:45pm

I had my pneumonia vaccination back in 1999 and thought they were good for a lifetime.  Just out of curiosity, in 1999, was this the 23 type protective vaccine that Albert is referring to?  I called my doctor and the nurse said that usually only high risk people get the shot.  I reminded her that I was 44 years old and not high risk but she told me to come on in anyway on Saturday for another shot since they had plenty of vaccine.  She commented that another pneumonia shot would not be harmful.  I wonder if Blue Cross Empire Blue covers the cost?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 6:19pm
I would definitely get it done again if its been around 5 years.... better safe than sorry.    Please post on this thread again after you get it done to let us know.  


Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 9:14pm

i have an appointment for tomorow after lunc 45$ did i hear someone say in another thread that the menegitis  vac may also be helpful? it's 110$

may get both since i have a large brain. Super Flu Man must protect himslf from all threats to the planet



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 9:37pm

You must have heard my mental call...I was gonna post "Where's Bird Flu Man, we NEED him"

Re: Meningitis vax...I paid for my son to have his $160.00 @ our doctor.  He will be the one out and about and so I thought it would be just one more layer of protection.

Meningits is a common complication of viral infection.  That's my understanding anyway.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/meningococcal_g.htm - http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dbmd/diseaseinfo/meningococcal_g.h tm



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 9:43pm
http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/meningitis.html - http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/bacterial_viral/meni ngitis.html
 
 
 
Meningitis

Meningitis is an inflammation of the meninges, the membranes that cover the brain and spinal cord. The inflammation is usually caused by bacteria or viruses (viral meningitis is also called aseptic meningitis). Less common causes include fungi, protozoa, and other parasites. Sometimes certain medications, cancers, or other diseases can inflame the meninges, although such noninfectious cases of meningitis are much rarer.

Many of the bacteria or viruses that can cause meningitis are fairly common and are more often associated with other everyday illnesses. Sometimes, however, they spread to the meninges from an infection in another part of the body. The infection can start anywhere, including in the skin, gastrointestinal tract, or urinary system, but the most common source is the respiratory tract. From there the microorganisms can enter the bloodstream, travel through the body, and enter the central nervous system. In some cases of bacterial meningitis, the bacteria spread directly to the meninges from a severe nearby infection, such as a serious ear infection (otitis media) or nasal sinus infection (sinusitis). Bacteria may also enter the central nervous system after severe head trauma or head surgery.

Bacterial meningitis is less common than viral meningitis but is usually much more serious and can be life-threatening if not treated promptly. Many different types of bacteria can cause meningitis: Group B Streptococcus, Escherichia coli, and Listeria monocytogenes are the most common causes of meningitis in newborns. Streptococcus pneumoniae (pneumococcus) and Neisseria meningitidis (meningococcus) are more frequent in children older than 2 months of age. Before the 1990s, Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) was the leading cause of meningitis in children in the United States. But the widespread use of the Hib vaccine as a routine childhood immunization has dramatically decreased the frequency of meningitis caused by Hib.

Viral meningitis is relatively common and far less serious than bacterial meningitis. It often remains undiagnosed because its symptoms are similar to those of the common flu. The frequency of viral meningitis increases slightly in the summer and fall months because people are more often exposed to common viral agents during those seasons. Most cases of viral meningitis are associated with enteroviruses - viruses that typically cause stomach "flu." However, many other types of viruses, such as the herpes virus, can also cause meningitis. The mumps virus was once a common cause of viral meningitis, but it is now rare due to the routine use of the measles, mumps, and rubella (MMR) vaccine.

Bacterial meningitis occurs in people of all ages but is more common in the very young (infants and young children) and the elderly (people above age 60). Teenagers and college students are also slightly more at risk for the disease because of time spent in close contact with many of their peers. Viral meningitis occurs in people of all ages, although it is more common in children.

People with less competent immune systems, such as the very young or those whose immune systems have been compromised by disease, are more at risk for all types of meningitis. Some types are more common in child-care centers, boarding schools, dormitories, and military bases, mainly because infectious diseases tend to spread quickly among large groups of people. Not receiving routine vaccines for certain infectious agents that can cause meningitis - including those for mumps, Hib, and pneumococcus - also increases a person's risk for the disease.

The long-term outlook for children who develop meningitis varies greatly and depends on a child's age, the microorganism causing the infection, any other complications, and the treatment the child receives. The complications of bacterial meningitis can be severe and include neurological problems such as hearing loss, visual impairment, seizures, and learning disabilities. The heart, kidneys, and adrenal glands may also be affected. Although some children develop long-lasting neurological problems from bacterial meningitis, most who receive prompt diagnosis and treatment recover fully.

The majority of cases of viral meningitis resolve with no complications.

Signs and Symptoms
The symptoms of meningitis vary and depend both on the age of the child and on which bacterium or virus is causing the infection. The symptoms of viral meningitis are usually milder than those of bacterial meningitis. However, symptoms of bacterial and viral cases can be similar, particularly in the early stages of the disease. This makes prompt, accurate identification of the infectious organism crucial to effective treatment and the patient's recovery.

The first symptoms of meningitis may surface several days after a child has had a cold and runny nose, diarrhea and vomiting, or other signs of a bacterial or viral infection. Some of the more common symptoms of meningitis include fever, lethargy (decreased consciousness), or irritability. Older children may complain of a headache, photophobia (eye sensitivity to light), and a stiff neck, which is often noted by the doctor during a physical exam.

Meningitis also can lead to skin rashes, although rashes caused by bacterial meningitis look different from those caused by viral meningitis. Seizures occasionally accompany meningitis as well.

Newborns and infants with meningitis may lack the classical signs described above and simply be extremely irritable or lethargic. Normally, infants who are not feeling well will be comforted when their mothers pick them up. However, a baby who has meningitis may display something called paradoxical irritability - when picking up and rocking a child makes the child more distressed. This can be a sign of irritated meninges.

Other symptoms of meningitis in infants can include: jaundice (a yellowish tint to the skin), a stiffness of the body and neck (neck rigidity), a mild fever, a lower-than-normal temperature, poor feeding, a weak suck, and a high-pitched cry. Parents may also notice bulging fontanelles on their baby's head. (Fontanelles are the soft spot at the top/front of the baby's skull, where the bones of the skull join and are still open at that age.)

Contagiousness
Most cases of meningitis result from infections that are contagious. The infectious agents usually spread from person to person in tiny drops of fluid from the throat and nose of someone who is infected. (This could be a person with either meningitis or, more likely, the common infection caused by that germ.) The drops may become airborne when the person coughs, laughs, talks, or sneezes. They then can infect others when people breathe them in or touch the drops and then touch their own noses or mouths.

Sharing food, drinking glasses, eating utensils, tissues, or towels may all transmit the infections as well. Some infectious organisms can spread through a person's stool, and someone who comes in contact with the stool - such as a child in day care - may contract the infection.

The infections most often spread between people who are in close contact, such as those who live together or people who are exposed by kissing or sharing eating utensils. Casual contact at school or work with someone who has one of these infections usually will not transmit the infectious agent.

It is important to remember that just because someone becomes infected with a particular bacterium or virus does not automatically mean that person will get meningitis. In most cases, the microorganism will simply cause a run-of-the-mill respiratory or gastrointestinal infection. In some instances, people may carry one of the germs that can cause meningitis without becoming ill at all. Even though they have no symptoms of disease, they can still spread the germ, however.

Patients with meningitis typically remain contagious while they still have symptoms. People who have bacterial meningitis can be contagious for about 24 hours after they begin taking antibiotics.

Prevention
Routine immunization of young adolescents will help prevent this rare but serious infection. Experts now recommend that kids who are 11 years old get vaccinated for meningococcal disease, a serious bacterial infection that can lead to meningitis. The vaccine is called quadrivalent meningococcal vaccine, or MCV4. Children who have not had the vaccine and are 15 years old, or entering high school should also get the vaccine. People who are entering college, and will be living in a dormitory setting should also get the vaccine.

Many of the bacteria and viruses that are responsible for meningitis are fairly common. Good hygiene is an important means of preventing any infection. Encourage your family members to wash their hands thoroughly and often, particularly before eating and after using the bathroom. Avoiding close contact with someone who is obviously ill and not sharing food, drinks, or eating utensils can help halt the spread of germs as well.

In certain cases of meningitis, doctors may decide to give antibiotics to anyone who has been in close contact with the person who is ill to help prevent additional cases of illness.

The vaccines against Hib, measles, mumps, rubella, polio, and pneumococcus can protect against meningitis caused by these microorganisms. Some high-risk children should also be immunized against certain types of meningococcus. Because bacterial meningitis is most likely to occur in confined settings such as college dorms, some colleges ask that incoming students be vaccinated against meningococcus. This vaccine may also be recommended for people who are traveling to countries where meningitis is more common.

Incubation
This varies with the organism causing the meningitis. The incubation periods for the most common causes of meningitis range from 2 days to 2 weeks.

Duration
Even with proper treatment, bacterial meningitis may take days (and sometimes weeks) to resolve, and recovery from its effects may take even longer. Most cases of viral meningitis resolve completely within 1 to 2 weeks.

Professional Treatment
Any child with possible meningitis needs aggressive diagnosis and treatment. First the doctor will take a history and perform a physical examination. If meningitis is suspected, the doctor will order laboratory tests to help make the diagnosis. The tests will likely include a
lumbar puncture (spinal tap) to collect a sample of spinal fluid. This sample will be examined for signs of inflammation and cultured for the organism that may be causing the infection.

It is crucial to fight cases of bacterial meningitis quickly. If a child is diagnosed with (or strongly suspected to have) bacterial meningitis, doctors will start intravenous antibiotics as soon as possible, often before the exact microorganism causing the infection has been pinpointed. Once the infectious agent is identified through laboratory tests, the antibiotics can be changed, if necessary, or discontinued if the patient turns out to have viral meningitis.

If the child is diagnosed with bacterial meningitis, he or she will be hospitalized and closely monitored. While in the hospital, the child will continue to receive antibiotics and may require intensive-care treatment. The child will receive fluids to replace those lost to fever, sweating, vomiting, and poor appetite, and may be given corticosteroids to help reduce inflammation of the meninges, depending on the cause of the disease.

Complications of bacterial meningitis may require specific treatment. For example, anticonvulsants can be given for seizures. If the child develops shock or low blood pressure, additional intravenous fluids and certain medications may be given to increase blood pressure. Some children may need supplemental oxygen or mechanical ventilation if they have difficulty breathing.

A child who has viral meningitis may also be hospitalized, although some children are allowed to recover at home if they do not seem to be too ill. With the exception of medication for the herpes simplex virus, there are no medications to fight the agents that cause viral meningitis, so treatment is usually aimed at relieving the child's symptoms. This includes rest, fluids, and over-the-counter pain medication.

Some patients who have had meningitis may require longer-term follow-up. One of the most common problems resulting from bacterial meningitis is impaired hearing, and children who have had bacterial meningitis should have a hearing test following their recovery.

Home Treatment
Any child with suspected meningitis should be seen by a doctor. Once a diagnosis has been made, all patients with bacterial meningitis and many with viral meningitis will be treated in the hospital. Older children whose laboratory tests show no signs of bacterial meningitis and who have milder symptoms may be sent home to recover. There they should get plenty of rest and drink lots of fluids. If necessary, acetaminophen (such as Tylenol) or ibuprofen (such as Advil or Motrin) can be used to relieve fever and headache.

Children who recover at home need to be closely watched by their parents and followed by their doctors. If the condition of a child recuperating at home worsens, the child should go to the emergency department right away.

When to Call Your Child's Doctor
Seek medical attention immediately if you suspect your child has meningitis or if your child exhibits symptoms such as vomiting, headache, lethargy or confusion, neck stiffness, rash, and fever. Infants who have fever, irritability, poor feeding, and lethargy should be assessed by a doctor right away.

If your child has had contact with someone who has meningitis (for example, in a child-care center or a college dorm), call your child's doctor to determine whether your child should take preventive medication.

Reviewed by: Elana Pearl Ben-Joseph, MD
Date reviewed: March 2004
Originally reviewed by:
Neil Izenberg, MD


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Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 11 2006 at 9:52pm

coool. guess i'll slpurge for the extra $220 on the both of us. between Tamiflu 2 doses and the pneumonia and menegitis thats'over $600.

Include thousands on basic preps and if the BF don't get me a heart attack from seeing the bill will.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 12 2006 at 7:50am

Pneumonia Vaccine  Shot. I just wanted to let you all know that I tried to get my children the Pneumonia Vaccine shot and was turned away. Mainly because no one wants to give it, my doctors says to go to the community health department and they say go to my doctors office. After the run-a-round they both told me that they wouldnt do it because my children were not in high risk groups. After I explained that they all have had lung infections before, they still refused. After explaining that it would help against the Avian Flu if it were to hit, the community health nurse laughed at me, saying Do you have chickens and or kiss them. I of course said No and she said, Then there you have nothing to worry about, besides, she said, it will never go human to human.

After this I really understood how much trouble we are all in. Do not rely on the government nor the healthcare providers. I have had too many of them laugh this off and not even prepare for this. I guess I am done venting.

As a note I do have a nebulizer and meds for it as a backup.

April



Posted By: kathie
Date Posted: January 12 2006 at 9:38am

got my pneu. vaccine today at the health department.  i am 55 and my husband is 57 and they advised us that we will need another one when we turn 65 years of age.

we were also advised that it will take 2-3 weeks from the time you get the vaccine for it to be effective.

 

kathie



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 12 2006 at 10:37am

Good job Kathie!

April, you can go to any clinic and get it.  It will cost more though, but you can get it at just a normal walkin clinic.  



Posted By: bruss01
Date Posted: January 12 2006 at 10:45am

Myself and my wife both got the vaccines (flu and pneumovax 23) when they brought a visiting nurse to the place where I work.  Since I am a contractor, we had to pay, vs. employees who got the vaccines free. It's a state agency, I guess they don't want to be decimated in the event of an outbreak.  Cost us 20 bucks for the flu, 30 for the pneumonia, so for 100 bucks we're all set - money well spent.

The visiting nurse really, really resisted giving us the pneumovax, saying it was really only for old people.  We good naturedly kept insisting, "yah, well, I think we'll go ahead and get it anyway".  She eventually relented, since we were first in line and were holding up the works.  But she wasn't happy about it.

The flu shot was a little sore for a few hours, and went away.  The pneumovax, however... OW!  our arms were plenty sore for several days.  Wow.  Guess we really needed it.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 12 2006 at 11:15am
Good job Bruss01!  Good job not taking no for answer.  It's important to get this done at all costs.   !


Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 12:04am
got the shots. tell Albert.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 4:51am

YAAA BUDDY !

 



Posted By: AuntBones
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 5:15am
Why do SOME health care workers act as if THEY are paying for your vaccine out of their paycheck! Everyday we a bombarded in regards to taking our health into our own hands. Funny most doctors are very pro active to  EKG, Bloodwork,Chest Xrays, Colon scopes, M  Grams for us women.....I could keep listing, but you all get the picture here.How many people just follow the doctors advice and get all the testing done....many do. Seems like when YOU are pro active, falls on deaf ears.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 3:37pm

Has anyone had their children to receive this shot? If so how old were they? I can not get anyone to do to around here and my Dr. asked me to go to another provider due to he has different beliefs on the subject. No harsh words, just frustration.



Posted By: Rocky
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 5:33pm
Forgive me for cross-posting. I see that others have had the same
problem I have had...getting the pneumonia vaccine for people
under age 65?

I can't find a Health Dept (WA State) whoe would consider vaccinating my
family. I have grown children ages 30-45 (all teachers) and 2 school-age
grandkids.

Anyone have any suggestions? BTW The Health Dept. did recommended
anyone 65 or older who had the pneumonia vaccine 5 or more years ago,
to get a booster.

To me, this situation is particularly alarming because if we do have a
pandemic and it is anything like 1918, the worst hit were the younger
people (about 20-40 year olds) in good health, with strong immune
systems. As I understand it, their deaths were caused by a violent
immune system reaction to the pneumonia following the original virus.

Thanks



-------------
Prepare for the Unexpected!
Rocky
http://www.homeemergencyusa.com - http://www.homeemergencyusa.com


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 6:05pm
That's not cross -posting.   Not being able to get vaccinated is a serious issue.   Any walk-in clinic in the country will give you the vaccination, no questions asked.  Of course, they will charge you more, but at least they will do it. 


Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 7:34pm

Albert,

I'm rather perturbed.  After calling my doctor's office twice this week, I was assured that I could just walk in without a doctor visit or appointment and the nurse would give the pneumo shot. I stopped smoking on Thanksgiving, gained weight and became the Incredible Bulk. (My doctor reprimands anyone for gaining weight and I wanted to avoid his disapproval).  I took off from work early today and when I got there, they said I had to see the doctor because I previously had a pneumo shot years ago (by the Visiting Nurse Association at work) and it should have been done in his office instead.  I'm so angry now because the doctor office is booked solid.  Just out of curiousity, when one visits a clinic, will they accept all incoming patients or is it based on need.  Now I'm willing to pay the US$100 just to get the shot again but it seems that the providers are so reluctant to give it. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 13 2006 at 7:50pm

Just walk in, fill out the 3 forms of paper work, and that's it.   They always have you do the new paper work so that they can get you into their system.  Then, they call you in and wam bam - well, you know the rest .....  

This is how clinics make money and why they're in business.   They love selling vaccinations. That's their bread and butter.  You will never find a medical walkin clinic arguing with you lol.   They will gladly rush you in for the shot.    Just pull into one of those many clinics that you drive by every day, and just pull in.  The clinics are everywhere. 

These clincs are open all weekend long.   There is no reason why everybody can't get it done this weekend, unless it's a financial issue. 



Posted By: kathie
Date Posted: January 14 2006 at 6:46pm

i am 55 and my husband is 57.

health department questioned our ages because we weren't 65.

told them i have lyme disease (true) and husband has asthma (true) and they didn't question us any further.  anyone with a compromised immune system should be able to get the vaccine.

 

kathie



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 14 2006 at 7:10pm
Albert, you have finally made it clear (at least to me, foggy headed as usual) that you aren't talking about the city or county run clinic but the ever convenient Doc-In-A-Box in your local strip mall.  Now I understand your repeated statements of ease of receiving one.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 14 2006 at 7:25pm

My fault.  I should have described them better.   Those places love to sell vaccines though.  Sheesh.  They almost push them on you lol.   

Kathie----- Good job to you and your husband.   It's good to see a "family cluster" getting it done together.  



Posted By: apomales
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 2:56pm
"Typically, influenza causes death due to a secondary bacterial pneumonia. Bacteria are able to take advantage of the hosts compromised immune status and damaged lung cells, establishing a potentially deadly infection. However, during the 1918 pandemic, a greater percentage of the deaths in the 20-45 age group were due to primary pneumonia: pneumonia caused by a combination of the influenza virus and the host response, with no bacterial invaders involved. In some patients, this occurred within a matter of hours from the first symptoms. A Pennsylvania medical student documented the phenomenon:


As their lungs filled, the patients became short of breath and increasingly cyanotic. After gasping for several hours, they became delirious and incontinent, and many died struggling to clear their airways of a blood-tinged froth that sometimes gushed from their nose and mouth. It was a dreadful business." Source :aetiologyblogspot.com


Posted By: apomales
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 3:06pm
Protective effect of pneumococcal vaccine against death by pneumonia in elderly subjects
A. Vila-Crcoles1, O. Ochoa-Gondar1, C. Llor1, I. Hospital1, T. Rodrguez2 and A. Gmez1
1 EVAN-65 Group of Primary Care Service Tarragona-Valls, Institut Catal de la Salut, Tarragona, and 2 Dept of Statistic and Research of Jordi Gol i Gurina, Barcelona, Spain.

CORRESPONDENCE: A. Vila-Corcoles, Institut Catal de la Salut, Prat de la Riba 39, Tarragona 43001, Spain. Fax: 34 977226411. E-mail: avila.tarte.ics@gencat.net

Keywords: Effectiveness, elderly, mortality, pneumococcal vaccine, pneumonia

Received: March 15, 2005
Accepted August 14, 2005

The present study assessed the effectiveness of the 23-valent pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine to prevent pneumonia and death in older adults in a first-time report between January and December 2002.

A prospective cohort study was conducted including all individuals 65 yrs of age assigned to one of eight primary care centres in Tarragona, Spain (n = 11,241). The primary outcomes were community-acquired pneumonia (hospitalised or outpatient) and death from pneumonia. All pneumonias were validated by checking clinical records. The association between the pneumococcal vaccination and the risk of each outcome was evaluated by means of multivariate Cox proportional-hazard models, adjusted by age, sex, influenza vaccination status, comorbidity and immunological status.

Pneumococcal vaccination did not alter the risk of hospitalisation from pneumonia (hazard ratio (HR): 0.80; 95% confidence interval (CI): 0.501.28) or overall pneumonia (HR: 0.86; 95% CI: 0.561.31), but the vaccine was associated with considerable reductions of death risk from pneumonia (HR: 0.28; 95% CI: 0.090.83).

In conclusion, these results suggest that pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine may not be effective in reducing the incidence of pneumonia, but may be able to diminish the severity of the infection. These findings support the effectiveness of the pneumococcal polysaccharide vaccine to prevent mortality caused by pneumonia in older adults, providing a new argument to recommend systematic vaccination in the elderly.




Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 3:19pm

 From above: "the vaccine was associated with considerable reductions of death risk from pneumonia."

good enough for me.  minimuize death from complications if I do get it.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 3:30pm

Simply put, if you get the vax, you will live.   You can't beat that deal!

I sure wish there was a way to let the world know.    

We should all be pushing our friends and families to get this done.  Even the worst BF critics seem to get it done when you tell them.   Try it! 



Posted By: apomales
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 3:34pm
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2296/1/1#IDAYSRPAB

Pretty good article on effectivness of pneumonia vaccine, there appears to be a lot of controversy on its effectiveness, considering there is little else available other than anti-virals, I still think it's worth getting. One last thing some parents mentioned the difficulty of getting the shot from the health department. It may help to get a script from the pediatrician (if the doctor will comply). The Health Department told me that I have to bring a copy of my children's shot records. It is much more difficult to get this shot for children than adults. My pediatrician also referred me to the County Health Department. I plan to ask my pediatrician for a script to take to the Health Department (best not to even mention bird flu).


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 15 2006 at 3:39pm

Good Job Apomales !



Posted By: Marjo
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 1:37am
Hi everybody,


got my pneumo vax an hour ago!! .

They said it included the meningitis-strain, so I've got that covered too
The vaccin was Pneumo-23. I had to pay 35 euro (that's what, 40 dollar?)

There were no questions asked, even though I'm  a healthy 42 LOL


Thanks for the advice to get this shot!!!

Marjo,
The Netherlands


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 4:29am

Marjo my friend.  I have been waiting until today for you to update us.   I would tell you that I thought about you last night, but it might not sound right LOL. 

This is going to be a good day! 

GOOD JOB!

 

 



Posted By: drizztcat
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 5:24am
the flu shot wont do you any good against the bird flu people wake up and smell the coffee

-------------
drizzt


Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 5:39am

Drizzt,

how bout wake up and read the post. They are talking about pnomenoia vaccine shot. not flu shot.

The only shot available to the public that will stop BF is called

a " 357 Magnum" . Ask for the "hollow point." by name.

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 6:21am

I knew drizz was going to say that....

For anyone else that actually takes the time to read this thread, please let us know if you have been unable to get your vaccination because your doctor has refused so we can all figure it out.   Don't give up!   

 

 



Posted By: Marjo
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 9:16am

I was wondering:
is my Pneumo-23 vaccin the same as your (american) one?

Mine containted 0.5 ml with the following polysaccharidetypes:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6b, 7f, 8, 9n, 10a, 11a, 12f, 14, 15b, 17f, 18c, 19a and f, 20, 22f, 23f and 33f.

It was manufactured in Belgium by Aventis Pasteur MSD.


Marjo,
The Netherlands


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 9:46am

Hello I just wanted you all to know that all the walk-in clinics in my state will not give you this vaccination per your request. I have called over 200 places in my state with no luck. My children most likely will not be vaccinated. My husband and I do have appointments tomorrow which took a very long time to get authorized by our primary doctors for the ok. It was like a 2 week process.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 9:52am

wow.  Maybe everybody should come out to California and get it. 

I have gotten 12 people in California to get it at various walkin clinics with no problem at all.  In fact, one place was already sold out so one friend of mine had to visit another location.  Again, he got it no problem and with no questions asked.  I have had three people get it at Keizer in California, and two people get it at Keizer in Oregon.  Again, no problems whatsoever. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 10:03am

I found a place for my 3 kids, however I have to travel 4 hours one way (8 all together) to get there and my husband says no, due to the cost of the travel and the shots.

I had my mother vac. 2 months ago after I told her.

My husband has to take 1/2 of the day off due to location as to where we have to go to get our shots and losing money over it.

Needless to say I am so frustrated and my family is getting agitated with me.

I just am so worried about my kids; I guess I will have to do it behind my husbands back.

Wish me luck and with the HUBBY!

 



Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 10:30am

I got mine about 2 weeks ago.  Finally got my wife in to get hers today. I haven't heard of anyone having any problems getting a pneumonia vaccine around here (Louisville, KY).  I've even started talking about the vaccine to friends and relatives.  Most of the people that I've talked to believe it's a good idea to get the flu shot every year -  So when I find out  that they've gotten the flu shot I tell them about the pneumonia vaccine.  I fugure it can't hurt.  I get mostly positive feedback.



Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 10:42am

Dolphin,

I took off from work early this past Friday and drove to my doctor to get a pneumonia shot.  I was assured from two previous phone calls that I could walk in without seeing the doctor. Once I got there from Jeffersonville, I was told that I would have to see the doctor since I had a shot given to me at the Kroger store in 1999 and they had no record.  Did you get your shot at the doctor or at a clinic? If at a clinic, which one did you go to?  If at the doctor's office, had you had a previous shot?



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 10:54am

Good job on the friends and relatives Dolphin. 

Good luck April!



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 11:11am

I wished I had an easier time getting this shot for my family. But, everything has worked out. I will make a day trip to get the shots for the kids and enjoy the area once we are thheree. (4 hours plus there 4 hours plus hours back + 3 kids in a small car = H E double hockey sticks). I also will take my mother for help. As for my husband and I we are good too. So it all worked out, sorry I was so negative before, just frustrated.

April



Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 11:26am

halogen601,

I went to my PCP.  I did have to see the Dr.  He likes to listen to my lungs and ask how I'm doing.  Or maybe he just likes to make sure he gets his $$$ out of my visit.  Anyhow, if I were you, I'd just try a clinic or the health dept.  I sent you an answer to your PM.  Don't give up!  



Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 11:59am
Thanks Dolphin.  I relented and called my doctor for an afternoon appointment tomorrow.  Since my regular doctor is on medical leave, hopefully the new one won't reprimand me for my smoking cessation weight gain.  And I was pleasantly surprised that my insurance covers the cost of the vaccine.  Folks are saying that immunity builds after two or so weeks.  Judging by the increased coverage today by MSNBC, the bird flu issue certainly seems like a viable threat.  With that, I think I'm going to go outside and enjoy the beautiful Kentuckiana weather today.


Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 7:42pm

I got our shots at a walk in clinic by Mohammad Yusariff. His wife ran the front desk. I hope we spoke the right language and I have to trust him as to what was in the hypodermics.  Hope he's ethical.

He could be laughing right now with my $$$ saying "Remember   9/11"



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 8:19pm

I almost fell off my chair I was laughing so hard.  Too funny......



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 16 2006 at 8:26pm
...........


Posted By: Lilla
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 6:38am
Sorry to disappoint you, but the avian flu killer pneumonia is a VIRAL pneumonia and not bacterial. That's why they're stockpiling Tamiflu and that's why people are dieing instead of taking antibiotics and walk away.

A bacterial pneumonia shot won't protect you at all against bird flu death. You can take it if you like, but don't feel safe at all.

Just google "avian/bird flu" and "viral pneumonia" and you'll see yourself.

Also: the Wyeth vaccine contains mercury, while the Aventis one is mercury-free. If you really want to take it, please check.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for my bad english

Lilla from EU

-------------
---Bad english spoken---


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 7:28am

Originally posted by Lilla Lilla wrote:

Sorry to disappoint you, but the avian flu killer pneumonia is a VIRAL pneumonia and not bacterial. That's why they're stockpiling Tamiflu and that's why people are dieing instead of taking antibiotics and walk away.

A bacterial pneumonia shot won't protect you at all against bird flu death. You can take it if you like, but don't feel safe at all.

Just google "avian/bird flu" and "viral pneumonia" and you'll see yourself.

Also: the Wyeth vaccine contains mercury, while the Aventis one is mercury-free. If you really want to take it, please check.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for my bad english

Lilla from EU

Lilla,

According to Gregory D Harrington, D.O., Center for Infectious Diseases and Pulmonary Medicine; who is a very prestigious Doctor, among various other Doctors who I have spoken to in reference to this same topic infers your statement is incorrect.

 

Here is Dr. Harringtons most recent slide that shows the

 

Complications of Influenza being:

         Primary viral pneumonia

         Secondary bacterial pneumonia

         Bacterial sinusitis

         Myositis

         Myocarditis / pericarditis

         Guillian-Barre syndrome

         Reyes Syndrome

 

In that order.

Mind you viral can cause bacterial pneumonia. It is no question that the viral is the primary, but the secondary is bacterial (which is considered the most serious).

This pneumonia shot has shown in studies to protect against the viral also. Research, In tests in more than 37,000 children in South Africa, the pneumococcal vaccine also prevented 31% of pneumonia associated with any of seven respiratory viruses, researchers said. (read more below)

Please read: Bacterial pneumonia vaccine may protect in viral cases

 

WASHINGTON (AP) A vaccine designed to prevent bacterial pneumonia also reduced the number of virus-related cases of the disease, according to research that indicates the two types of infection may interact.

In tests in more than 37,000 children in South Africa, the pneumococcal vaccine also prevented 31% of pneumonia associated with any of seven respiratory viruses, researchers said.

Their results were reported in this week's online edition of the journal Nature Medicine.

The discovery that the bacterial vaccine also blocks some viral illness indicates that "bacteria and viruses can interact together to cause disease in humans," said Keith Klugman, a professor of infectious disease at Emory University in Atlanta who led the team of researchers.

He said the finding also indicates that children with severe pneumonia should have access to antibiotics.

Antibiotics attack bacteria but not viruses, so these drugs are not generally used in viral infections. If an illness results from a combination of bacteria and viruses, antibiotics might help by attacking the bacteria.

Pekka Nuorti, a medical epidemiologist with national immunization program at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, said some cases of pneumonia that are thought to be caused by a virus actually result from a combination of both infections.

"Therefore they're preventable by the vaccine," he said.

Michael Kurilla of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases said that physicians long have had the impression that viral infections precede the development of potentially more severe bacterial infections.

"We believe in many cases of influenza, the damage the virus does to the lung sets up the opportunity for the bacteria to get in there," Kurilla said.

He said the new study suggests the opposite: the bacterial infection creating damage that allows for a viral infection to come in on top of it.

"What it may be saying is, these things can go wither way," said Kurilla.

The important thing, he said, is that the pneumococcal vaccine worked against the bacteria as well as nearly one-third of viral cases, a factor in considering the cost-benefit value of the vaccine.

Neither Kurilla nor Nuorti was a part of the research team.

In addition to pneumonia, the vaccine protects against other pneumococcal illnesses such as meningitis, blood infections and ear infections.

Klugman's paper notes that childhood vaccination has been shown to reduce pneumococcal illnesses in adults. It also suggests studies to determine whether the vaccine also reduces the incidence of pneumonia and influenza among adults.

The type of pneumococcal vaccine used in the tests has been in short supply in the United States. The government had recommended that doctors postpone the normal third and fourth doses for healthy children until supplies grow.

That recommendation was modified last week, advising doctors to go ahead with the third dose while deferring the fourth.

The vaccine is made by Wyeth Vaccines, which was a sponsor of Klugman's research. The research was also supported by the World Health Organization.


Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-11-vaccine_x.htm - http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2004-07-11-vaccine_x.htm

 

More info at:

 

http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1999/04_99/PN_Recognizing_Pneumonia.pdf#search='pneumonia%20bacterial%20viral%20helps%20flu - http://www.postgradmed.com/issues/1999/04_99/PN_Recognizing_ Pneumonia.pdf#search='pneumonia%20bacterial%20viral%20helps% 20flu '

 

http://www.healthandage.com/html/well_connected/pdf/doc64.pdf#search='pneumonia%20bacterial%20viral%20helps%20flu - http://www.healthandage.com/html/well_connected/pdf/doc64.pd f#search='pneumonia%20bacterial%20viral%20helps%20flu '

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 9:59am

The hubby and I had our shots today, now for the kidos in the next day. Can not wait for the 8 hours trip, but I am going to do it. Good things is that they accept my insurance, see there was a silver lining after all.



Posted By: Lilla
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 10:55am
I'm not saying it's completely useless: everybody knows that in viral infections you can get bacterial infections too, but please don't say (as I've seen some posts before) that a pneumonia shot will save your life for sure since in case of bird flu you won't get the deadly pneumonia.
This is simply NOT true.

Don't encourage people to get a pneumonia shot then walk around like they're immune to death risks, because it's not, and you expose them at getting the flu then subsequently die of viral pneumonia.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for bad english

-------------
---Bad english spoken---


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 11:51am

Originally posted by Lilla Lilla wrote:

I'm not saying it's completely useless: everybody knows that in viral infections you can get bacterial infections too, but please don't say (as I've seen some posts before) that a pneumonia shot will save your life for sure since in case of bird flu you won't get the deadly pneumonia.
This is simply NOT true.

Don't encourage people to get a pneumonia shot then walk around like they're immune to death risks, because it's not, and you expose them at getting the flu then subsequently die of viral pneumonia.

Just my 2 cents, sorry for bad english

No one that I know of on this board feels that way. We just think that it may help; the only way to prevent the Avian flu is isolation according to many of us. This shot is just precautionary. We do not believe that there will be a magic bullet. Sorry that you thought we were trying to say that.

PS - Did not note any bad Engish; very good matter-of-fact!

PPS - Thanks for the Great TIP!: The Wyeth vaccine contains mercury, while the Aventis one is mercury-free. If you really want to take it, please check.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 12:15pm
Pneumonia shot can aid flu victims
There's no shortage of vaccine to stem dangerous complications
By Lauran Neergaard and Mitch Stacy
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
 

WASHINGTON - The flu shot shortage makes it more imperative for elderly Americans to get a second, often overlooked, vaccine that protects against a type of pneumonia germ that's a common complication of influenza.

Called pneumococcal vaccine, it's a one-time shot for anyone 65 or older. Younger people with heart and lung diseases, diabetes or weak immune systems need it too.
 
It's not a replacement for a flu shot; high-risk patients should continue trying to find that.
 
Meanwhile, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Tommy Thompson said Monday that enough flu vaccine will be available for most people who need it. He told seniors to stop standing in long lines to get a shot.
 
"We want people to relax," he said at a news conference. "The flu season is not here."
 
Many of the same people most vulnerable to flu also are at high risk from this dangerous bacterial infection. They need the pneumococcal vaccine anyway - and this fall marks a good time to get it, especially if they can't find a flu shot.
 
"Absolutely," said Dr. Gregory Poland of the Mayo Clinic, who advises the government on pneumococcal vaccine. "It's a good backup to prevent the complications of influenza."
 
Pima County health officials also recommend the vaccine.
 
"The pneumococcal vaccine protects against one type of bacterial pneumonia. So it can reduce your chances of getting that complication from flu," said Dr. Elizabeth MacNeill, medical director of the Pima County Health Department.
 
But it does not mean a high-risk person won't develop a severe case of flu, she said, and it does not protect against other types of pneumonia that can develop from flu.
 
"That's why we'd still like to see people get their flu shots," she said.
 
The pneumococcal vaccine is recommended for the same high-risk group that is top priority for the scarce flu vaccine this year. Most elderly Americans already have received it as a part of routine health care, MacNeill said.
 
"There is no shortage of the pneumococcal vaccine. It should be easy to get through your doctor," MacNeill said.
 
Medicare pays for the shot; for younger patients, the cost ranges from $30 to $50.
 
Despite its name, the pneumococcal vaccine protects against more than pneumonia. It prevents deadly blood infections and meningitis, too, caused by a bacterium called pneumococcus. It's a scary germ because it causes so much damage so rapidly.
 
Poland described a seemingly healthy grandmother who one day felt a little achy and feverish. The next day, she was rushed to a hospital - and doctors watched in horror as jet-black, gangrenous streaks gradually formed on her limbs. The germs had infected the woman's bloodstream.
 
"To save her, they would have to cut away parts of her," Poland recalled.
 
Her hands and feet amputated, she now uses a wheelchair.
 
Federal data show that each year, 175,000 Americans are hospitalized with pneumococcal-caused pneumonia. In addition, the germ causes more than 50,000 blood infections and up to 6,000 cases of meningitis. Almost 6,000 die.
 
A childhood vaccine, called Prevnar, has proved very effective at battling seven pneumococcal strains common in babies and toddlers.
 
But millions of adults are at high risk from additional strains of the germ and thus need the adult version of the vaccine, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. They are:
 
Everyone 65 and older.
 
Anyone with diabetes, heart disease, chronic lung disease except asthma, chronic liver disease or kidney failure.
 
Anyone with weakened immune systems from cancer, HIV or organ transplants.
 
People without a functioning spleen or who have sickle cell disease.
 
Residents of long-term-care facilities.
 
Every fall, the CDC issues a call for those people to get the vaccine, called Pneumovax - a call this year overshadowed by the flu shot crisis.
 
The government hopes to have 90 percent of the elderly vaccinated against pneumococcal disease by 2010, but 63 percent are now. Even fewer of the younger high-risk patients are thought to be protected.
 
While one shot lasts the elderly a lifetime, anyone younger than 65 when he or she gets the adult vaccination needs a booster after five years.
 
Seniors around the country have been standing in lines at shopping plazas to get flu shots since news of a shortage surfaced this month. British regulators shut down shipments from Chiron Corp., which had made millions of flu shots earmarked for the U.S. market. The shutdown cut the U.S. supply of flu shots almost in half.
 
Thompson, the health secretary, said the flu vaccine supply will be reallocated to parts of the country where it is needed most. Most at risk for severe complications from the flu are seniors and very young children.
 
"We are looking all over the regions to find out where there is a shortage, and we will redeploy the resources to make sure the seniors get the vaccine first," he said. He noted that 91 percent of flu deaths last year were among people 65 or older.
 
Thompson advised people to first seek the shot from their doctor or a clinic. If that fails, they should contact the CDC in Atlanta, he said.
 
Thompson said there are still 20 million doses for seniors and 4 million doses for children that are being shipped out at a rate of about 3 million per week.
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 12:40pm

Originally posted by Marjo Marjo wrote:


I was wondering:
is my Pneumo-23 vaccin the same as your (american) one?

Mine containted 0.5 ml with the following polysaccharidetypes:

1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6b, 7f, 8, 9n, 10a, 11a, 12f, 14, 15b, 17f, 18c, 19a and f, 20, 22f, 23f and 33f.

It was manufactured in Belgium by Aventis Pasteur MSD.


Marjo,
The Netherlands

Yes it is the same according to my Drs office that I asked today, hope this helps!



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 12:45pm
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Any walk-in clinic in the country will give you the vaccination, no questions asked.  Of course, they will charge you more, but at least they will do it. 

I read today this is true probably because you are in an area that this vaccination have taken priority due to the rate of infection in your area (history). Where I live not so much, so it is very hard for us to get it as easily as you on the west cost. This makes way more sense to me now!



Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 3:20pm

Hey Albert and Dolphin,

I just got back from the doctor's office.  We had a heart to heart discussion and he did not want to authorize the shot citing that a healthy immune system associated with a younger person could be detrimental.  When he cited that the pneumonia shot is really only effective at curbing one strain of pneumonia, I asked if his vaccine was the 23-protector poly-sach variety that I hear about on this forum.  A quick look of surprise and he authorized the shot.  The nurse quickly administered the 0.5 ml shot like Marjo had and I was on my way home.  As a bonus, I didn't have to even pay the co-pay because I had overpaid on my last visit.  Oh happy day.  The persistence and wisdom of this forum has empowered me.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 3:43pm
Originally posted by halogen601 halogen601 wrote:

Hey Albert and Dolphin,

I just got back from the doctor's office.  We had a heart to heart discussion and he did not want to authorize the shot citing that a healthy immune system associated with a younger person could be detrimental.  When he cited that the pneumonia shot is really only effective at curbing one strain of pneumonia, I asked if his vaccine was the 23-protector poly-sach variety that I hear about on this forum.  A quick look of surprise and he authorized the shot.  The nurse quickly administered the 0.5 ml shot like Marjo had and I was on my way home.  As a bonus, I didn't have to even pay the co-pay because I had overpaid on my last visit.  Oh happy day.  The persistence and wisdom of this forum has empowered me.

Glad to hear the news. So any mention of the weight gain?! I am sure you were worried for no reason, right?!  I did not even get my weight taken on my shot visit.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 3:49pm
The adage: "Knowledge is Power" is apropos.


Posted By: Lilla
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 3:51pm
Killerflu,

Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Simply put, if you get the vax, you will live.   You can't beat that deal!



As you can see, someone here said that with the pneumonia vaccine, you'll live.
This is simply NOT true!

-------------
---Bad english spoken---


Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 3:59pm
Now Lilla, we may have these pink bubble clouds that could quickly go poof but do let me and the others enjoy our moment of triumph in being proactive and prepared in a world that seems lives day to day and has forgotten how to prepare. 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 4:19pm

halogen, good job lol.   You made them even beg to give it to you by the time you were done with them        

There is not a lot of research on it because there has never been a need for it since 1918 - With regard to using is to prevent the secondary complications from influenza.   Every doctor that I have  talked to says it makes sense. Every one of them?  There  are just no studies on it because there has never been a need until a "Superflu"  emerged.  But who would have thought that would have ever happened?  How do you prepare for a superbug situation?  

 Sure there is a chance that you will still die even though you get the vaccination, but it won't be from the secondary  bacterial pneumonia.  



Posted By: halogen601
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 4:40pm
Thanks Albert.  The doctor sternly warned to call him quickly if redness and pain emanated from the site where the pneumonia vaccine was administered, and then he left.  The nurse returned with the shot and I asked her about potential redness and pain.  She quickly retorted that she just ignored any redness and went on with life considering all the years (40) that she has had innoculations.  But Albert, Lilla is correct, in that one never knows about the unknown.  Ironically, I see that Gerald Ford has been hospitalized with pneumonia.  It was during his tenure that he was proactive in staving off the swine flu.  It didn't happen and repercussions were felt with the swine flu vaccine.   Some even attribute this to him not being re-elected.  Nonetheless, my 98 year old grandmother still recalls the misery of 1918 when she was young.  We're seeing bizarre things with nature in the world and it still doesn't hurt to be prepared.  The "order today, arrive tomorrow" regimen that we're accustom to may be interrupted.


Posted By: Corn
Date Posted: January 17 2006 at 5:08pm

another reason pneumonia is allowed to develope in a sick person is because they imobilize (lay flat alot)

When the elderly break hips, thier biggest threat to recovery is pnumonia, The imobility from and injury invites pnomunia.

When you move around or walk your lungs are expiring. aspariation pushes up fluids.

If you cough you should push something up. don't cough and try to supress it. cough it up.

Try to stay mobilized if you are ill. Die fighting!



Posted By: LizG
Date Posted: January 18 2006 at 12:49pm
Hi I don't know about the US but in Canada I got my daughter who is 12 vax today with a little white lie. They will vax for free if they have Asthma but nobody called the Dr office to find out, they just went on my word. I don't know if this will help anyone. I think it is necessary for any secondary infections. So to me the little white lie was worth it if it may save her life.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 18 2006 at 2:53pm
Originally posted by KillerFlu.net KillerFlu.net wrote:

 I tried to get my children the Pneumonia Vaccine shot and was turned away.. my doctor and the community health department  both told me that they wouldnt do it because my children were not in high risk groups. After I explained that they have had lung infections before, they still refused. After explaining that it would help against the Avian Flu if it were to hit, the community health nurse laughed at me, saying Do you have chickens and or kiss them?..  you have nothing to worry about.. besides it will never go human to human.

Do not rely on the government nor the healthcare providers. I have had too many of them laugh this off. April

April.. I scheduled an appointment for the Pnuemonia Vaccine at my HMO doctor's office with no questions asked.  I would have got it there for free,  but my appointment was scheduled a week away.  Someone was so anxious about me getting the vaccine that I chose to cancelled my HMO appointment and immediately get the shot at a walk-in medical clinic.  It cost me $71.00.

BTW, I volunteered to the clinic doctor that the only reason I was getting the shot was inorder to appease someone else's worry about the Bird Flu.   Also, at neither office was anything mentioned about a high risk group. 

Several of my friends got their Pnuemonia Vaccine at the same medical clinic.   None of us have children, but had we, I don't believe we would have a problem with them getting the shot.

The medical clinic is independantly owned by a group of doctors.  Perhaps they are open to giving the vaccine because they are in business for themselves.   Do you know of any such medical clinics in your area? Just a thought.   



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 18 2006 at 2:58pm

A white lie to protect your child?   Your white lie has been excused! LOL.   Furthermore,  GOOD JOB!

April holds the record for driving the longest distance to get it done.   April is truly amazing.  

I think you, halogen and marjo have had the more difficult negotiations.  



Posted By: Trigger
Date Posted: January 18 2006 at 4:00pm
I got my pneumonia and flu shot today.  Better late than never.

-------------
Trigger


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 18 2006 at 4:25pm

WAIT !!!  STOP THE PRESSES !!  WE HAVE A LAST MINUTE ADDITION !

IT'S ABOUT TIME TRIGGER!

Better late than never is right! 

I'm almost starting to feel like Richard Simmons lol.

By the way, whatever happend to Deej.  Did she get it done yet?   We need to stay on her.

 

 



Posted By: meewee
Date Posted: January 19 2006 at 8:15pm

Well I finally convinced my boss to get the pneumonia vacc. She went in and drug her hubbie in also because I told her I would stop nagging her if she did. LOL (she has diabetes BTW) Now to convince my hubbie and father-in law!. I have to find a way around this macho immortal BS! You would think they would have gotten a clue by now

Meewee



-------------
God Bless us all!


Posted By: apomales
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 1:10pm
Took my 2 children and myself for pneumonia-23 shot at the City Health Dept. Clinic. Pediatrician wrote a script for my children for the Health Dept. He did not have the PPV-23 and did not want to order. I told Health Dept. I have asthma; since under 65 you have to be high risk. I paid $25 per shot. My husband had the shot through a private physician. My sister and her son had the shot through their local County Health Dept. They live in the same state about 6 hours away. She paid $25 per shot. So another 6 had the shot.


Posted By: Trigger
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 1:25pm

Albert:

 

I never would have gotten my shots if it not been for you fine folks.  I had been following things but was stupid about it until I meet you guys.  Like I said B4, Thanks!!



-------------
Trigger


Posted By: Deej
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 1:55pm
albert,    doc says i have to wait... i have a sinus infection.. is that right? having to wait ?  i have been getting sick all winter already, have had 2 sinus infections, bronchitis & walking pneumonia, so i am qualified for a shot.... hooray ! i think my major prep, putting in a wood stove is causing all my recent illnesses.. any suggestions to help--- i am pretty sure the moisture level is good, can't think of anything else thats different in my way of life- except i just hit 40, and maybe i am just going downhill- ha ha

-------------
dee


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 10:19pm

Deej, it almost sounds like you have a black mold problem.   Any leaky faucets or water damage?  

Also, If you can't get the shot right now, maybe try to get some extra antibiotics.   

 Maybe get a second opinion also.  I thought that you would be the perfect canidate for a vaccination?    



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 10:26pm

apomales got 6 people!   Sheesh.... Apomales is a closer LOL.    That is defintely the biggest cluster yet.   

I guess I'm more like Jerry Lewis than Richard Simmons now.  Thank God. 

 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 20 2006 at 10:35pm

Good job Meewee!   Getting your boss to do it might be one of the toughest 3rd party forced vaccinations yet.        Good job!

Just let us know as soon as you get the last two on board.   Take them both down at the same time.    hehehehe



Posted By: Rocky
Date Posted: January 21 2006 at 2:00am
I'm getting there! My 'adult' kids finally got tired of my nagging emails.
Here is a hint for Moms (or Dads) re. reluctant adult kids! Find an
emergency medical clinic near their school, place of work or residence.
Then give that clinic a call to make sure they will give your loved one a
23-type flu shot and the pneumonia vaccine when they go in.

Many good reasons (possible white lies) about health problems and/or
exposure to many sick kids, etc can be used if needed. However some
clinics don't even ask for a reason to give the innoculations to young
adults

I think the universe will forgive our white lies. We are forced into this
situation to try to protect our family against the stupidity of
city/county/state/and national government medical practices and
practicioners. I think many physicians have been cautioned in some way
by the former group because of their great reluctance to help us with
medical needs and concerns. I don't necessarily believe in a conspiracy
theory, but I do believe in (starting right at the top) inexcuseable
stupidity, diversionary tactics, greed, collusion, poor leadership, etc.

Now you can give the phone number, innoculation hours and address of
an emergency clinic to your very bright but sometimes negligent and
preoccupied son/daughter. I realize that many young people are so
stressed about financial concerns, school and work that they haven't yet
done the research. We have! We can perhaps teach them more self
reliance when the test isn't between possible life and death, IMHO.

At first, getting turned down by doctors, regular medical clinics and
health depts was very discouraging to me. I found no luck looking in the
yellow pages under 'walk-in clinics' or 'medical clinics'. The magic word
(at least in WA and CA) seemed to be 'emergency care clinic'.

Son got a flu shot in such a place for $10 because of low income. He will
be getting the pneu. vaccine in a day or 2. Daughter got both at the same
time in separate arms, with no ill effects. They did want to make sure
she was well (no cold, etc).

In the next 2 days hubby and I go in for pneum vaccine boosters,
recommended for people over 65 who have had their first vaccine over 5
years ago.

Now to keep working on other daughter and son-in-law (both teachers)
to get proper precautions for themselves and their 16 and 11 year olds.

Don't give up! I certainly realize that none of these precautions are any
kind of guarantee, but we don't have many medical resources at our
disposal.

Of course our fervent hope is that we will never have to rely on these
precautions. I would so love to be wrong about all this.

I have found the trick for me is to stock up on stuff we could ordinarily
eat over time, whether there was or wasn't any kind of emergency/
pandemic. And for most supplies that does work. It hurts to spend more
money than we should at this time, but in the months to come we can
spend less on food and supplies as we use our stock. I guess if we can
afford it, the best thing to do would just keep the stock in place and
rotate it, replacing what we eat.

Thanks for listening. Rocky

-------------
Prepare for the Unexpected!
Rocky
http://www.homeemergencyusa.com - http://www.homeemergencyusa.com


Posted By: Jennifer
Date Posted: January 21 2006 at 1:33pm
I am new to the site, but after reading about the benefits that the pnue shot may provide, my husband and I both got ours last week.  Thanks for the information that may save our lives.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: January 21 2006 at 5:02pm

Glad to hear it Jennifer!   Welcome aboard!

Rocky, good post! 




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