Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese


Forum Home Forum Home > General Discussion > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Surviving a terror attack
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic.

Surviving a terror attack

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Surviving a terror attack
    Posted: August 20 2017 at 4:11am
I think we should start a conversation on what to do if caught up in a terror situation,seems more revelent at the moment,running like a headless chicken may not be the best way
12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 4:17am
Remembering of course that some don't have the right to bear arms
12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
Technophobe View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2014
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 26405
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 5:51am
Sounds like a great idea, Carbon.

I do not know the official advice.  It runs something like:  "Run, hide and call the police only if and when it is safe to do so. "  So, not a lot of help really.  

I avoid crowds as much as I can, always look for the exits and potentially safe places when going somewhere new and Hubby and I have a "secret" set of code words for potentially dangerous situations we spot.  The flu one is: "its cold as hell outside" when someone starts coughing or sneezing nearby.  But this is far from a complete set of plans.  I would be delighted to hear others' versions of this.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 9:53am
Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

Sounds like a great idea, Carbon.

I do not know the official advice.  It runs something like:  "Run, hide and call the police only if and when it is safe to do so. "  So, not a lot of help really.  

I avoid crowds as much as I can, always look for the exits and potentially safe places when going somewhere new and Hubby and I have a "secret" set of code words for potentially dangerous situations we spot.  The flu one is: "its cold as hell outside" when someone starts coughing or sneezing nearby.  But this is far from a complete set of plans.  I would be delighted to hear others' versions of this.

Very good! 

I have formal training in preparedness, covering everything from terrorism to natural disasters....and, in fact, the planning is essentially the same.  This US website has some good tips:


Technophobe, you are well on your way to "making a plan."  As with other disasters that may strike us locally (I live in tornado country in the US Midwest), we should always keep a terrorism incident in the back of our minds at all time.  

Best way to escape a terrorist incident it to not place yourself in harm's way....nearly all of these incidents occur in population centers, since terrorists seek to kill/maim as many humans as possible.  Of course, if we live in a large urban area or close to one, we live at Ground Zero.  

First thing I suggest is "always have your eye on the exit."   Recent car/truck attacks have happened on crowded streets, i.e. London Bridge, Charlottesville VA etc.  Avoid crowd situations if possible and, if you find yourself in one, be aware of possible escape routes.   Stick to the edges of crowds if possible....it may not be as fun as being in the mosh-pit, but there can be a price to pay for that.  

If caught in a situation, either escape or shelter in place as best as possible!  Survivors of active shooter incidents have shown how valuable this can be.   

Assuming you are caught in the middle of it, use situational awareness.  What is going on?   What seems to be the motivation, and why are certain people victims?  This is worth reading: 


The members of AFT strike me as folks who are blessed with the skills it would take to survive a bad situation, so just being aware of what might happen in any circumstance could be essential.   If you make a habit of thinking in this way, you'll be more resilient.  

Be safe. 

CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
Technophobe View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2014
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 26405
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 10:57am
Thans, Chuck! 

 Unfortuately I could not get that first web-page to load.  Here it is again, I think this one will work  http://www.ready.gov/make-a-plan
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Back to Top
EdwinSm, View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: April 03 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 4705
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 10:59am
Slightly off topic, but one of the complaints about the general public in the aftermath of some terrorist knifing in our nearest city was that instead of helping the victims too many people stood around taking photos or videos of the situation.

The first attack was in an area we often use to cross the road when we visit the city. That or similar crossings are hard to avoid if we want to get to certain shops.  But having said that much of our travel to and from the shops are along less crowded routes.
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 20 2017 at 9:53pm
Originally posted by EdwinSm, EdwinSm, wrote:

Slightly off topic, but one of the complaints about the general public in the aftermath of some terrorist knifing in our nearest city was that instead of helping the victims too many people stood around taking photos or videos of the situation.

The first attack was in an area we often use to cross the road when we visit the city. That or similar crossings are hard to avoid if we want to get to certain shops.  But having said that much of our travel to and from the shops are along less crowded routes.

No, right on topic!   It is hard to believe how obsessed the public is with their damn smart phones, constantly!  (I check mine all the time for email, that's about all). 

All the Instagram and FB postings....go ahead, take pictures, because terror attacks are typically in twos!  
The first one attracts the first responders (police, military etc.), and the second one targets them.  If you are hanging around taking photos, well....

Even providing first aid is a risk that you should be aware of, but I would act in that manner as well.  
CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 6:08am
Hey Doc I was thinking more on something I read /heard about gas attacks in WW1 and peeing into a cloth to stop the affects of gas ,not sure what gas, mustard or chlorine....expert opinion required pls
12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 1:07pm
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

Hey Doc I was thinking more on something I read /heard about gas attacks in WW1 and peeing into a cloth to stop the affects of gas ,not sure what gas, mustard or chlorine....expert opinion required pls

Not sure, urine is alkaline, so it might have helped to neutralize the chlorine gases used in WWII.  

In the grand scheme of things, I am not very worried about foreign attacks on population centers in the US.  Domestic attacks like OK City, yeah, that has been proven.  

CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 1:53pm

World War One: Scientist John Haldane tested gas on himself

By Jerry ChesterBBC News
French troops wearing the primitive veil respiratorsImage copyrightPAImage captionScientist John Haldane developed the veil respirator, but troops said it left them unable to breathe

When the Germans launched the first gas attacks in 1915, the allies were desperate to find out what chemicals were used and how they could protect troops in the front line. The War Office called in an Oxford academic to help - a man who was prepared to put his own life at risk to produce the first gas mask.

Not many of today's scientists would be prepared, let alone permitted, to test dangerous gases on themselves at home, relying on their teenage daughter to break in and revive them if they passed out from the effects.

But, John Scott Haldane was anything but orthodox, according to Dr Steve Sturdy from the University of Edinburgh.

"Haldane was a great self-experimenter - he thought the human organism was the best animal to experiment on because it could report on what it was experiencing."

Lord Kitchener himself called on Mr Haldane for help, after the Germans released clouds of chlorine gas across the front line around the Belgian city of Ypres, on 22 April 1915.

Urine-soaked socks

In an Imperial War Museum podcast, Bert Newman of the Royal Army Medical Corps describes seeing the effects on Canadian troops of a second gas attack two days later.

Soldiers had been told to improvise primitive protection, including soaking socks in their own urine and tying them around their faces.

"[But] in the end, you could see all these poor chaps laying on the Menin Road, gasping for breath," Mr Newman recalled.

"And the thing was it was no gas masks then, you see, and a lot of these chaps just had to wet their handkerchiefs and put it over their mouth or do what they could."

Machine gunners at the Battle of the Somme in 1916 wearing a later form of gas maskImage copyrightHULTON/GETTYImage captionBy 1916, the gas masks available had become more effective and easier to use

Mr Haldane already had a wealth of experience in working with dangerous gases from his pre-war work in the mining industry.

"He'd been visiting collieries after coal mine explosions and other disasters, determining the cause of death, much of which was due to poison gases that were present in the mine," according to Dr Sturdy.

"He'd also been involved in breathing apparatus that could be used in mines after explosions."

After the Ypres attacks, Mr Haldane and a colleague were rushed to Belgium, to find out what gas the Germans were using.

They identified chlorine from the way it had discoloured brass buttons on dead soldiers' uniforms.

Daughter stationed outside

Back at his home laboratory, Mr Haldane set about looking for a quick counter measure troops could be given, unconcerned about the effects it would have on him.

"He'd always experimented on himself and so in the urgency of warfare, and the fact that these were gases that were being used for deliberately harmful purposes, he did end up exposing himself to far more harmful levels of gas than he would have done in peacetime," said Dr Sturdy.

"Naomi [his eighteen-year-old daughter] was stationed outside the door, which had a window in it, with instructions that if he were incapacitated she should get him out as soon as possible."

Mr Haldane's quick fix was a small step forward from the wet handkerchiefs and urine-soaked socks.

"They were called veil respirators, and it was basically pads of cotton waste that were wrapped in gauze soaked in a solution of sodium thiosulphate, which neutralised the effects of low concentrations of chlorine gas," Dr Sturdy explained.

"These could be bound over the face, nose and mouth [but] he recognised that these were very much a stop gap."

American soldier wearing a box respirator in 1917Image copyrightHULTON/GETTYImage captionThe box respirator became the design of choice, but it was not available until 1917

Stretcher bearer William Collins, in another Imperial War Museum podcast, described how he was one of the first to use a veil respirator.

"About midday that day, supplies of the first so-called gas masks came up, and all it consisted of was a pad of wool covered by gauze with an elastic band running right round and about four inches by two.

"But, I found using it in the gas cloud that after a couple of minutes one couldn't breathe and so it was pushed up over the forehead and we swallowed the gas.

"It was not a practical proposition at all."

Mr Haldane went on to help with the development of the much more effective box respirators, which were used during the rest of the war.

Anti-German feeling

However, the Edinburgh-born academic and fellow of New College Oxford could have found reasons not to help the British war effort at all.

His brother Richard, who was Secretary of State for War and then Lord Chancellor, suffered from the wave of anti-German feeling that swept the country at the start of World War One.

"[Some] newspapers launched attacks on him because he'd studied in Germany, he spoke very good German and had close relations with German colleagues," according to Dr Sturdy.

"He was hounded out of office, and I think John Haldane suffered from that as well."

But, Mr Haldane continued his work throughout the war, and continued to experiment on himself.

He also used his son, who was in his 20s, in some experiments - it seemed to do him no harm, nor did it put him off science, as he went on to become a professor of genetics.

12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
KiwiMum View Drop Down
Advisor Group
Advisor Group
Avatar

Joined: May 29 2013
Status: Offline
Points: 8820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 5:50pm
I'd like to suggest two things:

If you find yourself on a street and a car or truck is being used as a weapon, don't turn and run. Stop, keep your eye on the vehicle and use a piece of street furniture as a barrier, ie. keep a lamp post, or a telephone kiosk or a concrete bench between you and the vehicle. I would also add, that I think in this day and age, you'd be mad to walk down the street with headphones on. You need to hear what's going on around you - the revving of a car, people screaming, gun shots etc.

Secondly, if you find yourself in a earthquake, don't run outside. All your instincts will be telling you to flee, but stop and shelter in place. More people are killed by falling masonary when leaving a building during a quake than by anything else. Get out as soon as the shaking stops and before the next quake strikes. 
If it is to be, it is up to me.
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 21 2017 at 6:18pm
Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

I'd like to suggest two things:

If you find yourself on a street and a car or truck is being used as a weapon, don't turn and run. Stop, keep your eye on the vehicle and use a piece of street furniture as a barrier, ie. keep a lamp post, or a telephone kiosk or a concrete bench between you and the vehicle. I would also add, that I think in this day and age, you'd be mad to walk down the street with headphones on. You need to hear what's going on around you - the revving of a car, people screaming, gun shots etc.

Secondly, if you find yourself in a earthquake, don't run outside. All your instincts will be telling you to flee, but stop and shelter in place. More people are killed by falling masonary when leaving a building during a quake than by anything else. Get out as soon as the shaking stops and before the next quake strikes. 

Thanks, KiwiMum, that is exactly correct!!   Your advice about headphones is right on the money - it is "situational awareness," and it takes some effort.  It can be practiced, simply take a situation you are in (walking on a street, sitting in church) and imagining an active shooter/driver situation.  What would you do, where would you go?

Sadly, New Zealand has had too many experiences with earthquakes in recent years, we hope that abates. 
CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 12:42am
the truck /van/ car thing will be short lived i feel ,the Malls and steet markets will be protected by barriers, the next will be some sort of chemical /gas attack,but the Bomb belt is hard to stop.

i guess most people on here are more aware than most already ,

i read on Docs post on other thead about being in the UK during the IRA bombing campain, i lived there then ,

 being aware became second nature ,being alert  of left packages and such,in fact i was suposed to be in a pub that got blown up ,

 only the fact i was held up and couldnt go in the end , the pub was the "taven in the town"then one time

 my wife and i were in a resturant in oxford st london , suddenly the police block the road and ,

 we exited the place via the back door 

situational awareness ,thinking outside the box ,keeping calm , 

over the years i have been a caver, and cave rescue volunteer ,mountaineer, the local state emergency

 service volunteer , so keeping calm is my best advice
12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
CRS, DrPH View Drop Down
Expert Level Adviser
Expert Level Adviser


Joined: January 20 2014
Status: Offline
Points: 13820
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 10:38am
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

the truck /van/ car thing will be short lived i feel ,the Malls and steet markets will be protected by barriers, the next will be some sort of chemical /gas attack,but the Bomb belt is hard to stop.

i guess most people on here are more aware than most already ,

i read on Docs post on other thead about being in the UK during the IRA bombing campain, i lived there then ,

 being aware became second nature ,being alert  of left packages and such,in fact i was suposed to be in a pub that got blown up ,

 only the fact i was held up and couldnt go in the end , the pub was the "taven in the town"then one time

 my wife and i were in a resturant in oxford st london , suddenly the police block the road and ,

 we exited the place via the back door 

situational awareness ,thinking outside the box ,keeping calm , 

over the years i have been a caver, and cave rescue volunteer ,mountaineer, the local state emergency

 service volunteer , so keeping calm is my best advice

Thanks, great recollections!  

I'm just not all that worried in the USA, even though we have had several massive attacks (OK City, 9/11).  These are very rare, and working with the Feds, I am aware of the huge expenditure of funds & labor to keep us safe.  

However, it is always that rare event that bites you!  Active Shooter scenarios bother me the most, the perps are usually insane, heavily armed and not afraid to die (or seeking to die).  A perp with a good weapon and lots of rounds is almost unstoppable.  

This is the official guide for surviving an active shooter event....of course, if you are trapped in a movie theater (2012, Aurora CO), concert venue (Bataclan theater in Paris, 2015) or nightclub (Pulse nightclub, Orlando FL 2016) you may be screwed.  

Most people who survived either escaped at all cost or played dead.  Throwing things at a shooter with an assault rifle will probably make him kill you even deader! 


CRS, DrPH
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 2:50pm

the problem is these people are INBRED to such an extent that mental and Phyical disabilities are RIFE in these comunities,it cost the UK TAX PAYER BILLIONS OF POUNDS,

some are getting the message and some women are refusing to marry their COUSINS

this is NOT A RACIST statement,this is a FACT, 

all swept under the carpet ,

added to that you have them basicly "BRAIN WASHED " from birth that the Koran is "GODS LAST MESSAGE"

to me Mohamed found what he said was revealed to him, 

just think about the "DEAD SEA SCROLLS" and how they were found , then read the story of  how Mohamed  received the Koran

also "THE NIGHT JOURNEY" taken by mohamed to the tempel mount,ask yourself "why he had to fly on a winged horse" to said temple mount ,and not go from where he was..........then  he ascended to heaven met with God ,Jesus ,Moses then decends and flies back on horse....sorry NO......

back to inbereeding,you may get away with it once but not over and over generation after generation.

next bit is from a Pakisani born UK baroness.......





LONDON (Web Desk) – First cousin marriages in Pakistani communities are leading to “so much disability among children”, said Baroness Flather, a former British barrister.


Baroness said, “There are a lot of first-cousin marriages in certain communities, particularly among Pakistanis who come from the Pakistani Kashmir area. We know so much about DNA now, but there is so much disability among the children, which is absolutely appalling.”

Medical data has suggested that while British Pakistanis were responsible for 3 per cent of all births, they accounted for 30 per cent of British children born with a genetic illness, reported The Telegraph.

Baroness Flather, who was born in the pre-partition Lahore said, “It is a social practice which does not belong in today’s age, when we know so much about DNA. There should at least be some rule which says that you must have a DNA examination before your marriage can be registered.”

First-cousin marriages, which are are legal in the UK, are practised within Britain’s Pakistani community, as well as among some Arab and African families.

12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
Technophobe View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2014
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 26405
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 4:39pm
I know I am the intensely irritating one who is always wittering on about the evils of racism, but I agree with you.  

Religion can be a great comfort and a guide to morality, but this is not universally the case.  Religions seem to go through a growing up process on a scale of about 100 years to one.  That makes Christianity a young adult, my religion an aged (possibly senile) great grandparent and Islam a very aggressive angry teenager.  Like all teenagers, it thinks it knows everything, but actually knows nothing of any real worth.  

As such, it raises questions of the worth religious freedom.  I know I am a know it all, but this time I have nothing.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Back to Top
carbon20 View Drop Down
Admin Group
Admin Group


Joined: April 08 2006
Location: West Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 15031
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 4:58pm
When i was 18 I thought I knew everything,

@24 I knew,I knew everything,

@45 I realised how little I knew.......

And now I'm 60 I know NOTHING.....
12 monkeys!!!!!
Back to Top
Technophobe View Drop Down
Senior Moderator
Senior Moderator
Avatar

Joined: January 16 2014
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 26405
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 22 2017 at 5:10pm
I know plenty: most of it is wrong.
Absence of proof is not proof of absence.
Back to Top
hachiban08 View Drop Down
Senior Admin Group
Senior Admin Group
Avatar

Joined: December 06 2007
Location: California, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 13007
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote hachiban08 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 23 2017 at 12:56pm
After someone was caught bringing a loaded gun into Phoenix Comic Con, a lot of the conventions implemented prop weapons bans. Some are doing bag searches now, just in case. I know San Diego Comic Con takes major precautions by having snipers on the roof, and police everywhere. It's a nice safety measure, but since I go to over 10 conventions a year at basically the same seven convention centers, I make it a point to know the exit routes of the convention centers. After losing my friend in the San Bernardino terror attack,  I have tried to enhance my awareness more.
Be prepared! It may be time....^_^v
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down