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The disarming of America-Obama continues to weaken

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Medclinician View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The disarming of America-Obama continues to weaken
    Posted: September 18 2009 at 4:28am
Last night as I watched the announcement that we would be removing our defense of Europe and the SAM batteries in two countries in a backdown to Russia, I became seriously concerned. So, once more, I guess it is time (though most of those threads were destroyed) to take a look at Iran and how we are on the verge of a large scale assault of Europe.

We had thought they were focusing on long range technology- but now after launching their satellite which can direct a literal nuclear arsenal- they can do some serious damage with their increasing mid-range nuclear missiles or other types to Europe.

Iran is a grave threat.

Having studied and worked with nuclear submarines since 1966- as well as being familiar with our aircraft carriers and and other defenses- it is unlikely the floating armada can take on a real D-day launch of missiles - which they have been practicing with for years.

There has been absolutely no progressing control Iran who grows in strength and intend to attack Israel soon. Our entire defense shields will not be built as we try to cozy up to our Muslim brothers who see these moves as an incredible display of weakness in the region.

We are not only losing the war on terror- any reference to it has been eliminated from this administrations platform. We are no longer a Christian nation and the Taliban has become the mercenaries of the Al Queda- funded by Opium in Afghanistan where we are getting whomped.

We need 3 more brigades - and the American public is fed up with the war. Low key in Pakistan we attempt to put in a pro-western leader with cries of electiion foul.

Our military is VERY important. Amid the diversion of the Pandemic, thousands of posts I have put up and threads tracking a crumbling policy in the Middle East has vanished from our media.

Before the current administration, we had some huge problems. Even though we get release of spin that the economy is improving- people over all are worse off. They just suffer and endure a lower quality of life and the over all approval rating of the government is sinking.

Understand, if we have a bad Second wave and we are weak- we are going to have the worst of the worst on our doorstep while huge numbers of our military are deployed in wars that are not helping our economy or the over all really serious problems in our nation.

The problems are still there.

And people should be kept aware they are.

Medclinician
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Turboguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 7:02am
Obama is a disaster of epic proportions. I'm sure the Russians were grinning like a possum eating crap when they signed onto this little deal.
 
I'm simply not even surprised anymore. Maybe he'll sell us out to China next...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 7:34am
Originally posted by Turboguy Turboguy wrote:

Obama is a disaster of epic proportions. I'm sure the Russians were grinning like a possum eating crap when they signed onto this little deal.
 
I'm simply not even surprised anymore. Maybe he'll sell us out to China next...


I strongly support our country and our military forces. IMHO we are seeing bad decision after bad decision at a global level. I know that Hilary is a sharp women, and she cannot possibly have a real say in foreign policy, because what is going on is a 180 from what would have been if she had become President.

It mystifies why we have this sudden obsession with taking people with little experience in military, government, or even politics so they barely even know the geology of surrounding countries and have gruesome embarrassing press conferences which are taking a toll on our world images. Our enemies are having a free for all.

It is simply a matter of time before someone finally just plainly states (as congress agonizes to fix the unfixable) they are trying.  They arre now gathering their own straw to build the bricks of anything solid to give the American public in the way of help in a recession.

It is a matter of time.. and this is definitely true when one of our enemies finally gets bold enough to figure we are scattered enough to really pull something. We won't be negotiating then over the peace tables in Iran.

I genuinely am proud of our fighters wherever they are sent to defend us. They given it 150% and against overwhelming odds try to do, the undoable- win wars with not enough troops,not enough ground intelligence, and against a monolithic Opium funded Al Queda hired Taliban half way around the world.

Of all times we need to sacrifice. Every American needs to get in step with some kind of plan to make things better. But first we need some real changes- and those in power don't want them.

History is being written here, and it is not a history of success for America. We need to change that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mulder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 10:35am
But what is the longer range motive ? Recall the guiding principle of the Freudian revolution - there's always a payoff for behavior. Discern his payoff, find the real future...
Trvth is still out there... for those with courage to seek...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dr.Who Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 12:37pm
NO doubt you all know I am no fan of President Obama.

Yet I think it is premature to judge a change in the defense program in Poland to be completely faulty. It may yet be that he has scrapped an old stationary program for a new mobile program.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 1NiceGuy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 12:58pm
Obama, what a great tactician.... and what did he get in exchange for our disarmament? Nothing... nice move...
"Chance favors the prepared mind."
Louis Pasteur

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mjm1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 2:21pm
What we have here is a President who, at his core, hates America.  If you judge him by the company he keeps (or kept), you can see that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technologist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 3:36pm
Originally posted by 1NiceGuy 1NiceGuy wrote:

Obama, what a great tactician.... and what did he get in exchange for our disarmament? Nothing... nice move...


The disarmament is an illusion as we are using mobile platforms (ships) instead. This mobility gives us a tactical advantage. We can always build the systems into our war ships like we are already doing. He might of saved our county billions of dollars in a time when we need to reduce our deficit and military expenses. He also reduced the chances of all out nuclear War with Russia. No one wins a nuclear war. Hopefully the doomsday clock will be turned back some. This is simply my opinion and I'm sure I've overlooked a good deal of things that maybe you guys can enlighten me on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 4:39pm

New Missile Plan Better Suited Against Iran, Gates Says

By John J. Kruzel
American Forces Press Service

WASHINGTON, Sept. 18, 2009 – The new U.S. missile defense plan will offer better protection than a previous proposal even if intelligence forecasts on Iran prove wrong, Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates said today.

Click%20photo%20for%20screen-resolution%20image
Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates escorts visiting Czech Defense Minister Martin Bartak through a cordon of honor guards and into the Pentagon, Sept. 18, 2009. The two defense leaders met to discuss the Obama Administration's latest decisions regarding missile defense technologies. DoD photo by R. D. Ward
  

(Click photo for screen-resolution image);high-resolution image available.
As opposed to earlier plans to build ground-based components in Poland and the Czech Republic, the new sea-based approach is better suited to intelligence on Iranian threats and would provide protection sooner, the secretary said.

Going a step further, Gates -- a former CIA director -- said the new arrangement is preferable even if U.S. intelligence assessments that indicate Iran is more focused on developing short-range missiles over long-range capabilities prove incorrect.

“I probably am more familiar with the risks of over-reliance on intelligence than anybody, because I’ve seen how often it’s wrong,” he said. “If the intelligence is wrong, and the Iranians develop a capability sooner than the intelligence is saying, this architecture gives us a better chance of being able to cope with it than the [previous program], just because of the new technologies that are available that give us more flexibility.”

The defense secretary appeared before Pentagon reporters with his Czech counterpart, Martin Bartak, following a meeting that included discussion of the new missile defense system in Europe that President Barack Obama announced yesterday.

In December 2006, Gates recommended to then-President George W. Bush that the United States should put advanced radars in the Czech Republic and 10 ground-based interceptors in Poland. That was when intelligence officials gauged the development of Iran’s intercontinental ballistic missile as the foremost threat to the United States and its allies.

Now, intelligence reports paint a different picture – that the country is moving faster to develop its shorter-range missiles.

“The original program that I recommended would have had no capability against short- and medium-range missiles until probably 2018,” Gates said today. “What the new system provides is some capability beginning in 2011 that will grow steadily each year in terms of its sophistication and its coverage of Europe. The next phase would begin in 2015.”

A drawback to the previous plan was that ground-based interceptors designed to deal with no more than five enemy missiles at once were prone to being overwhelmed by a larger salvo fired simultaneously, Gates said.

“What we have seen with the Iranians is that they’re producing and deploying significant numbers of short and intermediate missiles, and so [a salvo like that] could overwhelm even when the 10 interceptors were in place,” he said, though he added that research will continue on the ground-based system.

After much deliberation, Gates told reporters, his recommendation to Obama was to begin phasing in a missile defense system that puts radars and missiles in place sooner that are more suited to protect against the current threat. Plans are then to continue building on the system to increase its range of defense capabilities.

Deploying the Navy’s ships equipped with the Aegis weapons system to the region by 2011 drives the new plan’s initial phase. Their Standard Missile 3 interceptor has passed several tests in the past two years, and forward-position Army radar systems will support them.

This will give the military a smaller range of detection and protection, but is enough initially to protect U.S. troops and allies against Iran’s shorter-range missiles, officials said.

 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 4:53pm
Originally posted by Technologist Technologist wrote:

Originally posted by 1NiceGuy 1NiceGuy wrote:

Obama, what a great tactician.... and what did he get in exchange for our disarmament? Nothing... nice move...


The disarmament is an illusion as we are using mobile platforms (ships) instead. This mobility gives us a tactical advantage. We can always build the systems into our war ships like we are already doing. He might of saved our county billions of dollars in a time when we need to reduce our deficit and military expenses. He also reduced the chances of all out nuclear War with Russia. No one wins a nuclear war. Hopefully the doomsday clock will be turned back some. This is simply my opinion and I'm sure I've overlooked a good deal of things that maybe you guys can enlighten me on.


Hello Tech- These are some pretty interesting and perceptive thoughts. I agree with having studied the real effect of putting those batteries in place as neutralizing the Russian's  first strike capability from non-submarine based nuclear missiles.

The SAMS were going to be pricey and while they were sweeping with their sensors for Iranian missiles they also would be sensing Russian missile launches as well.  The Russians have proved themselves impulsive in the past and recently with the attack on Georgia, longer ago invading Afghanistan, and long ago- the Cuban missile crisis. If backed into a corner- it is hard to predict - just as in a face off of Iran if we had put a blockage in place-with our huge Armada their and Russian warships nose to nose.

They have played cat and mouse with us for years underneath the North Pole as well in coastal waters of the U.S. - but the recent exercises in the Gulf of Mexico - the first time they have been with shooting range with their flagship Peter the Great - fully armed and capable of vaporizing New England - at least- may not all be muscle flexing. The Soviets want their USSR back- they want a new money system- they want a new economic trade organization- in fact- Russia wants it all and pressed to a corner - might show fangs and actually bite.

As per the games in the Persian Gulf, if some of the readers here had viewed my posted videos of their new tugboat type torpedo launcher- which is very fast and a threat to our carriers- in the close skirmish with a lot of shouting a whole carrier could be dunked in the Gulf with some of their new toys.

They are buying heavy from Syria which is proxy buying from Russia- 1 billion dollar Mig-29s and some may have Plasma tech- which recently resulted in a Klingon (Star Trek) appearance of a group of fighters around an American cluster of ships from "out of nowhere".

These new high tech toys including a much debated high tech SAM battery which Russia swears it won't sell to Iran but if it did- our Stealths and choppers would be seeing some hits instead of flying the relatively free skies of Iraq.

The overall question is whether we need a commander in chief who has military experience versus one who relies on advisors. I, for one (IMHO) prefer a hawk in the White House. Hilary is a hawk and the 3 a.m. call, what do we do Mr. (Ms.) President - they have launched is one pondered pre-election.

It is not possible to truly evaluate our tactical strength currently (without putting out too much info) in using heavily armed carriers and subs against a barrage of 100 missiles from Iran launched at once. Already have put up video of multiple launching system they have and they are sure to line them up shoreline on the Persian Gulf.

Did we gain a friend in ex KGB Putin who is as hardline as they come and looking to basically take over the world or at least recover former lost military might? For one thing Putin has seen like a pharoah, seven years of plenty, and the Russian people are looking at him with admirable eyes as per his improvement of the Russian situation in some ways.

IMHO and had posted as much putting in the SAMS was a bad idea. The Europeans didn't like it either. It made them a target.

Iran has been on a military build up spree for five years at least and now with a probable one or two nukes- thousands of centrifuges- much fortified deep bunkers- capable of almost surving a penetrator drop and then a tactical nuke- they have moved thousands of their centrifuges all over the Iranian desert.

It is complicated. For one Muslims period are not negotiators. They see negotiation as weakness. They balked at almost every effort made to negotiate and the Tweeter wanna be revolution representing a huge youth population in Iran on the verge of revolution does not bury the hatred of thousands of graves when a Western World operation wiped out thousands of their comrads in a near genocide.

They don't like America. They don't respect America- and they are laying new pipelines in the Black Sea straight into the waiting arms of Russia.

The entire other coast was on full alert for some time - across from Iran. Can we take them?

Well, when the leader said in his tent talking to the 12th Imam and came out telling people that an Apocalypse would be just fine because it would bring on Armageddon which in their prophecies (doesn't anyone ever bother to look at things form a Muslim perspective) would then begin a time of world domination - Muslim think martyr- dying for paradise- they would blow up Tel-Aviv and praise the martyrs (Muslims) who died in the nuclear blast.

You don't negotiate with terrorists. You don't negotiate with Muslims. And you don't show weakness to Muslims period. If you are not a believer you are Kufar, and by the Qu'ran you get one chance to convert and your history.

For one who studied Muslim growing up- it would not be a horror story for them to see America become Muslim. After all- we are no longer a Christian nation.

Too soon to call a bad call on this one? Yea, probably so. Did we stall a nuke strike on one of our allies pulling us into World War III- maybe.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AandEmommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 7:21pm
"we are no longer a Christian nation." -Medclinician

I hear this statement often, and in many different circles.  When do you think we were a "Christian Nation," and what does that mean exactly?   Do you mean population? Behavior?  This statement has always made me curious. 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion......."
-The United States Constitution
Amendment 1 - 12/15/1791.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mrmouse Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2009 at 9:42pm
The question is, did Obama make the decision to pull the plug on the missile defense shield in Eastern Europe, or was it his handlers? Could a former ACORN organizer possibly have the wherewithal in foreign policy to go head to head with the Russians on such matters? This chess game has been playing out for decades, that has transcended at least ten administrations, so I would put my money on the US State Department, The Council on Foreign Relations, and Trilateral Commission moving the chess pieces for the Presidents.


US may put missile shield in Israel, Turkey instead of E. Europe - Polish report

http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=6242

Putin's Missile Defense Proposal and the Emerging World Order

http://www.henryakissinger.com/articles/tms080707.html
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Bush did not run the country Carl Rove did. Obama does not run it either...Axelrod does. There are others also but these are the main people who really run the country. Behind every winning politician is a person who has the "brains" and their opinion is most important.


These are the people who get their politician elected and they stay in the shadows but rule the roost.

Bush nor Obama had or have enough knowledge to run the country. I would love to be in important meetings to see who Bush and Obama looked and look to and who is always in these meetings.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2009 at 8:41am
Originally posted by AandEmommy AandEmommy wrote:

"we are no longer a Christian nation." -Medclinician

I hear this statement often, and in many different circles.  When do you think we were a "Christian Nation," and what does that mean exactly?   Do you mean population? Behavior?  This statement has always made me curious. 

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion......."
-The United States Constitution
Amendment 1 - 12/15/1791.



The reason is our country was founded on the basis of people having somewhere to go from the persecution of the Catholic church after the Protestant reformation. To understand a lot of this, you need to study history. History is not a big topic in our current education system, and those who ignore it are doomed to repeat it.

The founders, the framers of the constitution were basically Christian or Judeo-Christian ethics. The presence of God in our country is undeniable when it was established. It is on the money "In God We Trust" - it was in our anthem- One nation- under God- if nothing else- it cannot be denied America was founded with idea that Christians- not Pagans, Wiccans, Muslims, Hindus, etc. would have the freedom to worship unpersecuted.

Even other nations who colonized us - Spain- France- all did in the name of God- the entire state of California has El Camino Real- which connected missions to each other.

As a part native American- and knowing the old ways- worship of elemental forces- animals- and nature- while still a Christian- no consideration was given to the Indians as to their religion- their freedom. They were wiped out.

So now, in the last 50 years, suddenly the contra-culturre- where it used to be the majority of our country not only believed in God- but our Presidents would pray nightly for God's help in leading the nation.

Now we have elected a leader who was raised as a Muslim. There are 1.6 billion Muslims and their goal is to make the rest of the world Muslim. Americans die everyday fighing in Afghanistan and Iraq to stop the Muslims from militarily taking over the world.

This freedom of religion has opened the doorway so that it would be just fine for all of America to become Muslim.

Bushes deal was - they (the extremest Muslims) are trying to arm the Muslim countries with nuclear bombs and then first take out their hated Israelis and then us for supporting them. We have come under the fire of the Muslims because we for 50 years since the year of my birth have supported a nuclear armed (who don't even formerly come under any non-poliferation treaty) Israel that is about to get attacked by Iran and the Hamas and Hizbollah.

Well, shoot- so we go over to Europe and want to talk peace with Iran. You might as well talk peace with Hitler who while his troops invaded Poland was waving a peace banner and talking peace.

The anti-Christian movement- gathered real momentum when Bush embraced the Christian right- and then it became uncool to be a Christian.

Let me tell you, and I have friends in France where it is 1/5 Muslim- when they begin to become more numerous all the live together in peace talk stops and it it is back to the sword of one thousand years ago prepared to sever your head or die. Christians in Europe were not notorious in the Holy Wars for their loving kindness- nor in the Spanish Inquisition, or the Salem Witch trials. Everybody wants to rule the world (Tears for Fears)

The Western world tries to control the earth. The Muslim and communists do the same. Neither is justified in doing so- forcing their beliefs on others. However, if you want the U.S. to start having people with loudspeakers get off trucks and beat women for not wearing burkas and have what rights women have earned in the last 100 years- just keep pushing for a nation which does not actively fight extremist Muslim terrorists. We are fighitng for our freedom. Do people fight more passionately for no afterlife or peaceful union with the earth spirit- or for a very intense warlike God. Unfortunately it comes down to war. There will always be wars and rumours of wars - Jesus.

This is no communism. It failed because people are greedy and want to dream of being rich and have the illusion they can become so. Some do.

No, for almost two centuries the major of America has been Christian.

Here is your reality. Are we a Christian nation?

(self-identification, ARIS)

Religion1990 Est.
Adult Pop.
2001 Est.
ADULT Pop.
2004 Est.
Total Pop.
% of U.S. Pop.,
2000
% Change
1990 - 2000
Christianity 151,225,000 159,030,000 224,437,959 76.5% +5%
Nonreligious/Secular 13,116,000 27,539,000 38,865,604 13.2% +110%
Judaism 3,137,000 2,831,000 3,995,371 1.3% -10%
Islam 527,000 1,104,000 1,558,068 0.5% +109%
Buddhism 401,000 1,082,000 1,527,019 0.5% +170%
Agnostic 1,186,000 991,000 1,398,592 0.5% -16%
Atheist   902,000 1,272,986 0.4%  
Hinduism 227,000 766,000 1,081,051 0.4% +237%
Unitarian Universalist 502,000 629,000 887,703 0.3% +25%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid   307,000 433,267 0.1%  
Spiritualist   116,000 163,710 0.05%  
Native American Religion 47,000 103,000 145,363 0.05% +119%
Baha'i 28,000 84,000 118,549 0.04% +200%
New Age 20,000 68,000 95,968 0.03% +240%
Sikhism 13,000 57,000 80,444 0.03% +338%
Scientology 45,000 55,000 77,621 0.02% +22%
Humanist 29,000 49,000 69,153 0.02% +69%
Deity (Deist) 6,000 49,000 69,153 0.02% +717%
Taoist 23,000 40,000 56,452 0.02% +74%
Eckankar 18,000 26,000 36,694 0.01% +44%

look at the numbers. Christians voting as a block for either a leader or laws would control America and has for a very long time. However counter culture- look at which group is growing fastest.

Our money reads - In God we trust- and most of Americans are Christian. That is the way it is. We are by numbers a Chrisitian nation- however- with freedom for all.

Some of us believe- the movement away from God as we know him will lead to the collapse of our nation. It is written in our holy book, it is prohpesied that these signs, what is happening will result in the collapse of life as we have known it for 200 years.

I personally think as we eliminate prayer in schools, anything religious from government we may follow the letter of the law- but we lose the support of what for some of us is very important. Not only that, but the basic moral principles of love, compassion, faith, and even the belief in an afterlife with a supreme being which makes people at least try to be good and love others.

So, let's see what happens as people turn away- and they are from what was a Christian nation. Something that many took pride in and now is not cool.

Some of us believe it will be the collapse of our freedom, and we will be taken over by others with not so kind and tolerant philosophies.

You cannot separate religion and governement. It has never been done successfully. Peoples beliefs are what make them vote, much more than real issue. People vote and live with their hearts far more than their minds.

Look at the numbers. Some are very vocal but it is clear to me that if we abandon the principles and morals and foundation of our country- not just the constitution- but the death of the family institution and the spread of infidelity, betrayal, and a growing apathy - or hedonistic lifestyles which know no loyalty or virtue- we will as a nation.. fall.

You are free now to go dance naked in the woods (within limits).  The battle we fight is one of a spoiled nation, who the rest of the world is coming to hate and want what they have. And if we do not hold unto the basis of what our country was founded upon, we most certainly will lose it.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sjf53 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2009 at 10:29am
 
 
September 18, 2009
White House Fact Sheet on Missile Defense Raises More Questions Than It Answers
WebMemo #2621

On September 17, President Obama announced that the United States would not honor its commitment to field missile defense interceptors in Poland and radar in the Czech Republic.[1] At the same time, he announced that the U.S. would pursue a new “phased, adaptive approach” for missile defense to provide protection to U.S. territory and America’s friends and allies in Europe.

The White House accompanied the President’s announcement with a fact sheet describing this alternative approach.[2] The fact sheet makes assertions that, at a minimum, are difficult to validate. As such, Congress would be well-advised not to take the assertions in the fact sheet at face value. Rather, it should be prepared to ask Administration officials probing questions about these assertions.

Ambiguous (at Best) Assertions

The assertions that the Obama Administration has included in the fact sheet are listed below, along with analysis that explains the difficulty in assessing their validity.

Assertion #1: The Iranian Ballistic Missile Development Program Is More Focused on Short- and Medium-Range Missiles. Specifically, the fact sheet states: “The intelligence community now assesses that the threat from Iran’s short- and medium-range ballistic missiles is developing more rapidly than previously projected, while the threat of potential Iranian intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) capabilities has been slower to develop than previously estimated.”[3]

Leaving aside the fact that intelligence estimates of foreign ballistic missile developments is an inexact science and that the U.S. is often taken by surprise regarding these developments, the reality is that the Iran is developing its ballistic missile capabilities holistically. Neatly dividing the Iranian development program between the efforts for short- and medium-range missiles from ICBMs and space-launch vehicles (SLVs) is at odds with this more holistic approach. Developments toward what in a particular flight test may appear to be a short-range missile can make material contributions toward the development of a long-range missile.

Congress needs to delve into the specifics of the assessment cited by the Administration and inquire how either:

  • The intelligence community was able to separate elements of the Iranian missile development program so precisely, or
  • Whether the Obama Administration simply read the intelligence in a way that interpreted the assessment to arrive at the conclusion that there were neat distinctions within the structure of the program.

Assertion #2: U.S. Missile Defense Capabilities and Technologies Have Advanced in Recent Years. This assertion is accurate, but is completely at odds with President Obama’s previous statements that missile defense technologies are ineffective and unproven. The Obama Administration has used such statements to curtail or terminate a number of missile defense programs earlier this year and justify a $1.6 billion cut to the overall program in fiscal year 2010 compared to fiscal year 2009.[4]

Now, he is using the opposite argument to justify the termination of plans to install missile defense systems in the Czech Republic and Poland. Congress needs to inquire why opposite arguments are being used to the same end—justifying the termination of specific missile defense programs.

Assertion #3: The Sea-Based and Standard Missile Interceptor Technologies Can Be Matured in Four Phases through the Next Decade. Certainly, the sea-based and Standard missile programs can be matured during the time period cited by the fact sheet.[5] But such maturation can be realized only if there is a sustained commitment to the program over the entire developmental period.

Nowhere in the description of the program is such a commitment made, and long-term funding levels are not revealed. There is no guarantee that arms control considerations will not be allowed to interfere with this program, just as they led to the termination of the system intended for the Czech Republic and Poland. Congress needs to ask about firm commitments to the future of the program.

Assertion #4: The Alternative Approach Will Provide for the Defense of the U.S. Homeland against Long-Range Missiles. Even if there is a sustained commitment to the alternative program, this will occur only at the last of the four phases, or around 2020. In the meantime, the Obama Administration is moving to reduce the number of interceptors fielded in Alaska and California from 44 to 30 to counter long-range missile strikes against the U.S.

Now, it has canceled the fielding of the interceptors in Poland, which would also have served to defend the U.S. homeland. Congress needs to ask why the Obama Administration is not pursuing both systems for the defense of the U.S.

Assertion #5: The Alternative Plan Speeds Protection to Europe for the Defense of U.S. Forces Deployed There and of U.S. Allies. This assertion is based on a comparison of the time the defensive system for countering long-range missiles from Iran would go into the Czech Republic and Poland against doing nothing. It conveniently assumes that the U.S. would not pursue other programs such the sea-based system it is now touting, the Terminal High Altitude Area Defense system, the Medium Extended Air Defense System, and the NATO cooperative program along with the systems in the Czech Republic and Poland. The U.S., however, has long been pursuing these additional programs in concert with those for the Czech Republic and Poland. Congress needs to ask the Administration about what clearly is a false assumption behind the comparison.

Assertion #6: The Alternative Plan Provides More Flexibility to Respond to the Emerging Iranian Missile Threat. Clearly, the sea-based and Standard missile program, if pursued on an aggressive and sustained basis, can provide flexibility because of its highly mobile deployment mode and the options for adding technological upgrades to the system. As described regarding the previous assertion, this could have been achieved in concert with the fielding of the radar and interceptors in the Czech Republic and Poland. It poses a false choice to say that it is either the previous option or the Obama Administration’s alternative plan. Congress should ask whether in fact greater flexibility could be achieved by pursuing both options in tandem.

Poor Choices

In an attempt to justify its decision to terminate America’s commitment to field missile defense interceptors and radar in the Czech Republic and Poland, the Obama Administration has released a fact sheet. The questionable validity of the fact sheet’s assertions, however, serves only to highlight the shortcomings of the Obama Administration’s decision.

Congress should not let the Obama Administration go unchallenged regarding this matter.

Baker Spring is the F.M. Kirby Research Fellow in National Security Policy at The Heritage Foundation.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Legacy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2009 at 2:27pm
Originally posted by Medclinician Medclinician wrote:

Last night as I watched the announcement that we would be removing our defense of Europe and the SAM batteries in two countries in a backdown to Russia, I became seriously concerned. So, once more, I guess it is time (though most of those threads were destroyed) to take a look at Iran and how we are on the verge of a large scale assault of Europe.

We had thought they were focusing on long range technology- but now after launching their satellite which can direct a literal nuclear arsenal- they can do some serious damage with their increasing mid-range nuclear missiles or other types to Europe.

Iran is a grave threat.

Having studied and worked with nuclear submarines since 1966- as well as being familiar with our aircraft carriers and and other defenses- it is unlikely the floating armada can take on a real D-day launch of missiles - which they have been practicing with for years.

There has been absolutely no progressing control Iran who grows in strength and intend to attack Israel soon. Our entire defense shields will not be built as we try to cozy up to our Muslim brothers who see these moves as an incredible display of weakness in the region.

We are not only losing the war on terror- any reference to it has been eliminated from this administrations platform. We are no longer a Christian nation and the Taliban has become the mercenaries of the Al Queda- funded by Opium in Afghanistan where we are getting whomped.

We need 3 more brigades - and the American public is fed up with the war. Low key in Pakistan we attempt to put in a pro-western leader with cries of electiion foul.

Our military is VERY important. Amid the diversion of the Pandemic, thousands of posts I have put up and threads tracking a crumbling policy in the Middle East has vanished from our media.

Before the current administration, we had some huge problems. Even though we get release of spin that the economy is improving- people over all are worse off. They just suffer and endure a lower quality of life and the over all approval rating of the government is sinking.

Understand, if we have a bad Second wave and we are weak- we are going to have the worst of the worst on our doorstep while huge numbers of our military are deployed in wars that are not helping our economy or the over all really serious problems in our nation.

The problems are still there.

And people should be kept aware they are.

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And what, exactly, does this have to do with the flu pandemic, Med?
I do everything my Rice Crispies tell me to....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2009 at 4:55pm
Originally posted by Legacy Legacy wrote:

And what, exactly, does this have to do with the flu pandemic, Med?


I just lost an hour worth of writing when this site arbitrary creams a post.
Other topics draw readers who normally would not read about Swine Flu to the site.
Some of these are popular topics. If you stuck to Avian Flu topics and nothing else the site would die for lack of anything to post. So we have now shifted to Swine Flu and in discussion area many topics. If some posters can post recipes- travelogues about the Balkans and any number of way off Avian Flu topics and people enjoy reading and posting about them- I think Albert has already established this format which has created a high traffic highly read site.

Don't fix what isn't broken with censorship.

By the way- the Swine Flu will make foreign issues concerning national defense incredibly relevant when our military catches 2nd wave and we have half of the world wanting to invade our country. Being pulled in a ally proxy war- as Israel gets attacked by 100 nukes when we are trying to deal with a combination flu making us barely able to stay alive is worth preppers knowing about.

This is Alberts site and he has for years allowed a wide variety of topics when there is hardly nothing left on Avian Flu. If we had stayed on that- the site would have died.

If you are only interested in Avian Flu topics- and want to post only threads dealing with it- it would probably shut the site down.

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i would just like to vent a little like the rest of you.

!.  This has never been a christian nation.  The founding fathers never ment it to be, so who came up with that idea.

2.  Iran may not be so bad as everyone is making out and then on the other hand they could be worse.  Everyone is looking for them to attack Israel with a nuke, what if they didnt and just attacked WDC instead., we never seen 9/11 coming, why would we see something like this?

3.  As far as physically attacking this country with an army, that would be crazy, everyone here has a gun and they know how to use it.  Our women may act all fluffy, but dont get them rialled up, they will pull out their 38 and show you who is boss.

4.  The second wave, get over it, it is here and it is no worse then the first.  It is all propaganda and will not materialize.  This is the second time swine flu has been used for political purposes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AandEmommy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2009 at 10:41pm
4=laro Smile




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Med I'm wondering why you're using an older survey?

Every survey has its own numbers but according to your survey Christianity in the US has dropped from 86.2% to 76% in the last 18 years. Here is the updated 2008 ARIS report. http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/p1a_belong.html

Just because someone says they are X religion does not mean they even attend church or even read a bible. Religion is a very tiny aspect in many peoples lives.

In, a 2006 online Harris Poll of 2,010 U.S. adults (18 and older) found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States



I just don't see any religion as the foundation of America.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2009 at 4:27am
Originally posted by 4=laro 4=laro wrote:

i would just like to vent a little like the rest of you.


It is good to hear another perspective Laro. As part Cherokee I can agree in part - in truth we have never been a "Christian" nation although the numbers are there.

I want you to know, very sincerely that as I post these outbreaks and higher numbers- and talk- an I spend 4 hours on the phone a day- God help the ears of those I speak to- learning what is happening all over. It is not only different than seasonal flu- there are outbreaks of a strain that is a whole lot worse with resistance to Tamiflu and Relenza.

The picture of a group of whacked out needing Thorazine alarmists is one well painted by many governments. Piercing the veil and digging- I have been a professional dataminer for .gov - used to be my job. I am good at it.

And I am good at cutting through all the BS and misinformation. I know you guys are truly convinced this Second Wave is not bad. Well, it is getting nastier- and by winter we are going to have unless a lot of data I have is truly wrong- a firestorm of a mean at least 1% killer. That is borderline. The infrastructure can take that- but combined with other problems we have- its gonna hurt.

It probably isn't Obama pulling he strings. He is a show piece- a face - but behind him are powerful forces.

We can agree to disagree and thanks for venting. I think your opinion mirrors the majority of that of the American people.

My information sources are nearly cut off. In fact, my life- my health- is nearing a point where I either survive three procedures- one for cancer- or I have less than 6 months to live.

Shoot sometimes I think some would be a lot more concerned about my incessantly ringing voice putting up truth.. and it is truth- because they don't need to take me out. My health is taking me out. I will be gone not that far off. I think. Why thrash a dying person?

So- thank you for some down to earth observations. The doctors I talk to.. and I am not a Beautiful mind leaving letters to some post office box with a delusional troop of invisible peole. Such types exist. Some are pretty smart. The one I speak of helped win the war for us and he was nutty as could be. Psychotic.

I need more numbers. I will find them.

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Originally posted by Medclinician Medclinician wrote:


and by winter we are going to have unless a lot of data I have is truly wrong- a firestorm of a mean at least 1% killer.


I wonder if it's one of Baxter's special little Christmas presents for the entire world to share.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2009 at 5:24am
Originally posted by Technologist Technologist wrote:

Med I'm wondering why you're using an older survey?

Every survey has its own numbers but according to your survey Christianity in the US has dropped from 86.2% to 76% in the last 18 years. Here is the updated 2008 ARIS report. http://b27.cc.trincoll.edu/weblogs/AmericanReligionSurvey-ARIS/reports/p1a_belong.html

Just because someone says they are X religion does not mean they even attend church or even read a bible. Religion is a very tiny aspect in many peoples lives.

In, a 2006 online Harris Poll of 2,010 U.S. adults (18 and older) found that only 26% of those surveyed attended religious services "every week or more often"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_United_States



I just don't see any religion as the foundation of America.


I am coming more and more to appreciate your solid feet on the ground nature Tech. My dad was heavy into history and the foundation of the the U.S. is a complex topic. You know with Henry VIII and his divorces was formed the break from the Catholic church which was  immensely important in the U.K. not be a Papal fuedal state controlled by the Pope.

There are more than a thousands books who dispute your basic premise- honestly- if I wanted to spend an afternoon- I could refute this stuff. Why put in God We Trust on the money- because at one time we were a Christian nation for the most part. Not everyone who says I am Christian- is Christian. But the majority is immense.

Rome ignored Christianity and the resolve of us Christians- and Rome fell.  For now, we can agree to disagree - but I will continue to rally Christians in terms of a powerful survivalist group which will help a hundred million people find strength in God as per those who do not believe. Encourage resistance to TPTB. No render unto Ceasar's that which is Ceasars and unto God, that which is God's. It is the radicals and non-Christians who believe in violence and will be the core of the armed problem which may face America. Jesus stilled the hand of Peter who sought to fight the Romans come to crucify him and healed the enemies wound.  People will not give their lives for Technology. They will do so for religion. They always have. We face an army beyond comprehension who are willing to given their lives to their vision of paradise. This is a dangerous enemy.

Bush was confused. And he hurt us with his political agendas and pushing a war- well- it had to happen. And we need to get those brigades to Afghanistan yesterday despite a lack of public support or we will be fighting the war here.

You do not understand terrorists. I do. They are driven by a hatred of the Jews which goes back 3,000 years when their land Palestine was essentially stolen and they ceased to be a recognized nation as Isreal first became one - at least the Gaza strip- and they have a legitimate gripe. Unfortunately we are sucked into this by oil and we are on the edge of a Jihad. It will happen. Someone will mess up, nuke someone, and the 12th Imam- who is in hiding (or at least someone who claims to be) will step forward unite the Muslims- and call in for support from Russian and China - we will like face 1% of the 1.6 billion Muslims on the battlefields as they respond to the call for a holy war - a Jihad- headed by Taliban and Al Queda. They will be scattered like a flock of Raptors- worked up in a religious fever as surely as they were in Spain as they faced Le Cid. And cells throughout our country will emerge and it will begin.

http://www.ctspanish.com/legends/elcid.htm  Let us not be forced to repeat this battle.

Rome fell because it was spread too thin. We, in our policing of the globe, our big brother with incredible infiltration of almost every world government down to controlling who becomes leaders- is more than we can do. We cannot rule the world.

The Al Queda using the Taliban is making gains. And China, whom we have just about given the keys to our apartment (technology) reaps $250,000,000 dollars a years, buys up our company, and is conducting a silent invasion of America. It didn't stop with Vietnam and communism.  We are faced with a real problem..

Is it in the Bible- the yellow man shall rule?

The first one was
Genesis 9:27 "May God extend the territory of Japheth, may Japeth live in the tents of Shem, and may Canaan be his slave"
The poster said "It's probably something developed from Abraham's blessing of Japheth's descendants in Genesis 9:27. If you think that the "yellow race" is Japheth's descendants, it's still a big step to thinking that "the yellow race will inherit the earth", but not impossible."

The next poster wrote,
"
I think it's more likely to be Jeremiah 30.6, where God speaks through the prophet to warn Israel and Judah about the coming day:
'Ask ye, and see if a man bear children? why then have I seen every man with his hands on his loins, like a woman in labour, and all faces are turned yellow?'"


Well, we will leave it to the zealots and those who heated debate such things. One thing we can be assured of- the Muslims- China and Russia- and Europe would all like to take the place of the U.S.  as the dominant nation on earth.


Can we trust Russia? No. Are they growing more powerful developing anti-missiles that if given to rogue states and terrorists are going to set off a World War?

I think so.

Is it about to happen in the Middle East while we stagger around denying a coming bad Pandemic- as we mess with mixing H5N1 and H1N1- kinda looking that way. Keep making those bioweapons just to see what we can see and trying to make a vaccine to protect the infrastructure-

These are stuff that Time magazine and almost anyone but Fox steer clear of. Also posters except for the truely flaked and obviously so.

But no all of us putting up this data are on day pass at the local (and boy are mental facilities on the decline. Our mental population are much to found in the homeless and drug users and alkies.

Yes, I am and oldster. I don't like it but I have lived a long time.

It is my opinion America is losing its grip and we are in a world of hurt and this new sweep of brilliant ideas is like letting an interior decorator loose in your fairly lived in comfy home. They think they are making a fashion statement-

America does not need to make a fashion statement. American needs to hunker down, get our military into high gear as per the incredible build up around the world of our enemies and move away from the Kumbaya crowd holding hands and giving peace a chance while we are a few years away from seeing some kneeling people told say-there is no God but Allah and Homhammed is his prophet or you die.

Muslims in large groups and in power are not nice. And given Muslim sympathizers in the U.S. and the truly idealistic thinking that we can somehow domestic an enemy of several thousands years who even fight among themselves and want to take over the world. Read the Qu'ran.

It is prety clear on many things.

Persecute them? No. Not be tolerant. No.

Stop them from sweeping through Afghanistan, Pakistan, Syria, and Iran an Iraq sitting n the worlds oil supply when people refuse to lose jobs to switch over to alternate energy?

We are getting weaker. My dollar in Europe when I used  to travel and be treated by tourist hungry countries like a deity on Europe $10 a day- isn't happening any more. And like the German who when I walked the streets of Mainz- in dress uniform had memories of others in uniforms and eyes to the ground backed away. I was told- don't do offpost in uniform. Uniforms scare these people.

Well, lets not get where uniforms scare our own people. Lets not take our soldiers and put them against our own people in martial law.

Crazy. No- shapes of things to come. Which comes first- a real group of unhappy Americans (how does one word that subtly. I just did) or a sweeping plague?

240,000,000  people about believe what i just wrote. They just dont' talk a lot. In the end that many people will make a difference.

People don't like the truth for the most part. People get passionate. They have told me to just talk about birds. Well, the Bird Flu is not longer the problem. Pig flu is- and God help us- they don't want it called pig flu - though two sequence- the main ones came directly form our pig farms at least came from or were put there.

You are telling me in a nutshell that only 26% of America is still religious. What a real accomlishment for our nation. How God, as some of us know him must be really ready to step forward and protect us.  Truly Christian. I am telling you this, turning our back on the God we grew up believing in and most did in my generation- that being which exists- will abandon us if we abandon him - and we have.

Swine Flu- one of the vials- the destruction of the family, immorality, a Godless nation- its all in the book- but most have thrown theirs, if they have ever had one in the trash. There will be a price for that. War and a time a truly terrible tribulation and those who have ears will hear and eyes will see.

IMHO of course, and the millions that have shared it and once lived by it.  you all in America are free by the nature of the morals and tradition it was founded on have freedom. Those who do not believe in a man who died two thousand years ago - well - who will be for them when the unthinkable becomes reality.

The writing is on the wall.  Crazy? The Babylonians thought so. Thou has been weighed in the balance and been found wanting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_writing_on_the_wall

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 20 2009 at 5:48am
Originally posted by Technologist Technologist wrote:

Originally posted by Medclinician Medclinician wrote:


and by winter we are going to have unless a lot of data I have is truly wrong- a firestorm of a mean at least 1% killer.


I wonder if it's one of Baxter's special little Christmas presents for the entire world to share.


Baxter concerns me.

http://ahrcanum.wordpress.com/2009/07/23/baxter-vaccine-patent-h1n1/

See Baxter Vaccine Patent Application US 2009/0060950 A1 FILED AUGUST 28, 2007

“In particular preferred embodiments the composition or
vaccine comprises more than one antigen…..such as
influenza A and influenza B in particular selected from of one
or more of the human H1N1, H2N2, H3N2, H5N1, H7N7, H1N2,
H9N2, H7N2, H7N3, H10N7 subtypes, of the pig flu H1N1,
H1N2, H3N1 and H3N2 subtypes, of the dog or horse flu H7N7,
H3N8 subtypes or of the avian H5N1, H7N2, H1N7, H7N3,
H13N6, H5N9, H11N6, H3N8, H9N2, H5N2, H4N8, H10N7, H2N2,
H8N4, H14N5, H6N5, H12N5 subtypes.”

“Suitable adjuvants can be selected from mineral gels,
aluminium hydroxide, surface active substances, lysolecithin,
pluronic polyols, polyanions or oil emulsions such as water in
oil or oil in water, or a combination thereof. Of course the
selection of the adjuvant depends on the intended use.
E.g. toxicity may depend on the destined subject organism
and can vary from no toxicity to high toxicity.”

“Three different influenza strains, two A-strains Hiroshima
(HR, H3N2), a New Calcdonia (NC, H1N1) and a B-strain,
Malaysia (MA), were produced in Vero cell cultures. After
virus propagation the infectious virus harvest is inactivated
prior to purification….”

Read that last paragraph again-

BAXTER produced H1N1 cell cultures nearly two years before the pandemic! 

 Today 7/23/09, “the Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee will hear about the status of H1N1 vaccine production, as well as the FDA’s plans for evaluating vaccines in time for the fall flu season, when public health officials expect to see resurgent H1N1 infections.” http://www.medpagetoday.com/ProductAlert/DevicesandVaccines/15170.  The meeting will be held at Hilton Hotel Washington DC North/Gaithersburg,  620 Perry Parkway, Gaithersburg, Maryland 20877 - http://www.fda.gov/AdvisoryCommittees/Calendar/ucm170908.htm,  as  one of our finest taxpayer funded government office buildings wouldn’t due for such a meeting!  CIDRAP- The Center for Infectious Disease Research usually posts follow ups here  http://www.cidrap.umn.edu/cidrap/content/influenza/swineflu/index.html 

Want to bet Baxter will be one of the presenters?

U.S. health officials are considering a fall immunization campaign that could involve an unprecedented 600 million doses of vaccine for the currently circulating H1N1 swine flu vaccine.http://www.forbes.com/feeds/hscout/2009/07/21/hscout629120.html

And, just like Baxter predicted human testing, “The University of Maryland School of Medicine’s Center for Vaccine Development will be one of 10 centers in the nation to test a swine flu vaccine on adults and children.  The clinical trial, slated to begin next month, will enroll up to 1,000 adults and children to evaluate whether the vaccine is safe and effective

comment: how very effective. A test on 1000 people to determine the safety of 600 million doses of a vaccine which we are not even sure will work or what the side effects will be.

in preventing the virus known as H1N1, which public health officials fear could mutate into a deadlier strain this fall.http://www.baltimoresun.com/health/bal-swinefluvaccine-0722,0,755431.story  Other city medical Iowa City, Iowa; St. Louis; Nashville; Seattle; Atlanta; Cincinnati and Houston reportshttp://www.nationalterroralert.com/updates/2009/07/22/u-s-looks-for-volunteers-for-swine-flu-vaccine-test/ .

Not to be outdone- “Nurse Luiza Duszynski flicks her syringe, squeezes a few drops of clear liquid from the needle and pushes it into Tara Seaton’s arm. With that, she became one of the world’s first recipients of a vaccine for swine flu. Seaton is among the 240 healthy adult volunteers in Australia who CSL Ltd. began injecting today with its experimental vaccine against H1N1, the new virus strain that sparked the first influenza pandemic in 41 years”.- http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=aadm7_AYSmKo

Don’t forget, “Vaccine makers and federal officials will be immune from lawsuits that result from any new swine flu vaccine, under a document signed by Secretary of Health and Human Services Kathleen Sebelius.”http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hjdCHrP82YTFser5vD6CzTK1az6wD99GH8580

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Nuclear Bombs have been considered the worlds most deviating weapons. Eventually a nuclear war will happen. Just like the San Andreas Fault. It might happen tomorrow, next decade or 100 years from now but it will happen. Nuclear armed Countries have Detonated over 2,000 nuclear bombs since 1945. The Yield from US Nuclear tests alone had the combined energy of roughly 12,000 Hiroshima Bombs.

As bad as Nuclear bombs are, I don't think they are even our worst threat. Our biggest threat is the speed at which Technology is developing. Attacks on the US can be made with stealthy and completly undetectable methods. How do you retaliate when you don't know who the enemy is?

Here is one we can all relate to. There are well over 100,000 known computer viruses. Now we are starting to see man made Viruses that have the potential to kill humans by the millions. At some point in time the technology needed to make a deadly virus will seem trivial. It might have already started or it may take 10-30 years from now but I feel we are going to get bombarded with a never ending batch of these things as technology progresses. It might originate from a corporation seeking to profit (Baxter), the terrorist chemist living down the street. Or it could be a very elaborate plan from a well funded country to knock out almost every living human that does not have access to the vaccine. The swine flu might be an accidentally release or a first wave pre-planned test.

Imagine if a country released a monster virus. We developed vaccines in time to save most of humanity but we couldn't chase down the billions of mammals on earth to vaccinate them. How do you inoculate a wild animal or a bird? We end up on a planet almost extinct of animals. That would be a weird world.
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I only have one question for everyone to ponder:  If the government and the vaccine makers were going to be made accountable for their actions, Do you think for one second we would be having a vaccine available that is unproven and most likely unsafe?
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Originally posted by 4=laro 4=laro wrote:

I only have one question for everyone to ponder:  If the government and the vaccine makers were going to be made accountable for their actions, Do you think for one second we would be having a vaccine available that is unproven and most likely unsafe?


Creating a deadly virus would necessitate the need for a vaccine. If the virus were to keep mutating then the Vaccine makers would continually make profits developing new vaccines. Spreading a virus around the world can be done without anyone knowing where or who started it. It would only take one bad vaccine to destroy the trust in a company so I don't see any motive to create a vaccine that would do harm. Every person that receives the vaccine will know exactly who is responsible and accountable. The mega profits would be made my distributing a working and effective vaccine over and over.

It would also be a very effective population control as only the most advanced counties would have the ability to save their citizens. Third world countries? Yea I read that they were around at one time. It's sad but the world powers have the ability to reduce the population if deemed necessary. Who would even know it was a man made virus?
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Originally posted by Technologist Technologist wrote:

Nuclear Bombs have been considered the worlds most deviating weapons. Eventually a nuclear war will happen. Just like the San Andreas Fault. It might happen tomorrow, next decade or 100 years from now but it will happen. Nuclear armed Countries have Detonated over 2,000 nuclear bombs since 1945. The Yield from US Nuclear tests alone had the combined energy of roughly 12,000 Hiroshima Bombs.

As bad as Nuclear bombs are, I don't think they are even our worst threat. Our biggest threat is the speed at which Technology is developing. Attacks on the US can be made with stealthy and completly undetectable methods. How do you retaliate when you don't know who the enemy is?

Here is one we can all relate to. There are well over 100,000 known computer viruses. Now we are starting to see man made Viruses that have the potential to kill humans by the millions. At some point in time the technology needed to make a deadly virus will seem trivial. It might have already started or it may take 10-30 years from now but I feel we are going to get bombarded with a never ending batch of these things as technology progresses. It might originate from a corporation seeking to profit (Baxter), the terrorist chemist living down the street. Or it could be a very elaborate plan from a well funded country to knock out almost every living human that does not have access to the vaccine. The swine flu might be an accidentally release or a first wave pre-planned test.

Imagine if a country released a monster virus. We developed vaccines in time to save most of humanity but we couldn't chase down the billions of mammals on earth to vaccinate them. How do you inoculate a wild animal or a bird? We end up on a planet almost extinct of animals. That would be a weird world.


This is good stuff Tech. Clap
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Viruses have been around for ever..  They are being used and have been used during war time ..  Maybe we are at war and dont know it..  In the middle ages, it was a common practice to toss dead bodies over castle walls, when the body died from a virus that would make the enemy sick or better yet die. 

World war 1 is another example.  The President knew we had a pandamic going on and sent military personnel to Europe to fight...  This just spread the swine flu to the enemy and it was easier to surrender then fight while sick.  Only problem is it mutated and came back to bite the US in the a**.

Now the Baxter fiasco, what if it would have worked and they had a real vaccine available for the allumnitti and after their H5N1 got finished with Europe, would it have came back mutated and their vaccine could have been worthless?  Do sociopaths even think?   Oh, I forgot, that was just a little mix up.  Mass murder could have happened and it has been completely swept under the carpet, there wasnt even a little fine or an inquest.  Years ago we had someone mail amtrax thru the mail and the government and news media went nuts, now it seems no one cares as long as it is a multi national coorporation.
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Originally posted by 4=laro 4=laro wrote:

Viruses have been around for ever..  They are being used and have been used during war time ..  Maybe we are at war and dont know it..  In the middle ages, it was a common practice to toss dead bodies over castle walls, when the body died from a virus that would make the enemy sick or better yet die. 

World war 1 is another example.  The President knew we had a pandamic going on and sent military personnel to Europe to fight...  This just spread the swine flu to the enemy and it was easier to surrender then fight while sick.  Only problem is it mutated and came back to bite the US in the a**.

Now the Baxter fiasco, what if it would have worked and they had a real vaccine available for the allumnitti and after their H5N1 got finished with Europe, would it have came back mutated and their vaccine could have been worthless?  Do sociopaths even think?   Oh, I forgot, that was just a little mix up.  Mass murder could have happened and it has been completely swept under the carpet, there wasnt even a little fine or an inquest.  Years ago we had someone mail amtrax thru the mail and the government and news media went nuts, now it seems no one cares as long as it is a multi national coorporation.


What is worse we have China putting out 2 billion doses of something we know hardly nothing about. At Lockheed during the nuclear shelter days- we were all hyped up and making scary scary things. But the difference between what was laying in King Tuts tomb (which probably is what killed everyone- the curse was probably viral) and stuff now is we make it. Yep you could put a monkey typing furiously and it would take awhile to create War and Peace. But no- we the big brain sapiens can do what nature could not in 3 million years in a few a days.

Lets make it really contagious, really deadly, and then lets assume that it will just stay put in the rack in some class 5 lab and no bad guys will get it and have a party at the water supply of some megacity.

More bang for your buck on biowarfare. And the best part- no collateral damage- except for human bodies which can be removing leaving the attacker- if they are immune or vaccinated- untouched ready to roll American factories, everything you could imagine without  Americans.

Right now I am hearing a shuushhh - kind of like deafening silence. So much to say- so few will say it.

Medclinician





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Another view of History,
 

Is America Really a Christian Nation?

For many people today, it's a controversial question, but not for the nation's founders who saw the Bible as the basis for the American revolution.

The men who fought a revolution and created a country -- the most free country to have ever existed-- once gathered in the Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Penn.

Why so much freedom? Some say because the revolutionaries accepted what the Bible said about human beings, that they are created in the image and likeness of God.

"(It was the first time in history) an entire country was actually founded upon the idea that all human beings possess certain innate inalienable natural rights," said Robert Hutchinson, author of The Politically Incorrect Guide to the Bible. "And that these are not privileges that are bestowed by the state, but are gifts from God that no state, no king or potentate can take away."

So what did the men who gathered in the hall believe?

Scholar Beliefs

Some modern scholars would have you think if they did believe in a God, but others indicate they believed in the God of the Bible -- an intimate Lord who bestowed upon them blessings, and gave them both responsibilities and rights.

Pastor Peter Lillback recently wrote Wall of Misconception in part to correct misunderstandings about the founders and their faith.

"There are those who would like to argue that we were started by secularists, those who had no interest in religion," he said. "At best they were deists: that God was irrelevant. And the deists said 'God has not spoken.' There is no Word of God for a deist because God is not involved in history."

And yet the Bible is the book the revolutionaries turned to over and over again when laying the foundations of America.

"Over one-third of the citations of our founders come directly from the Scriptures, more than any other book," Lillback continued. "They were not biblically ignorant. As one writer said, 'They knew the Bible right down to their fingertips.'"

Another third of the founders' citations came from masters of philosophy and law, who just happened to be Christians who drew deeply from the Bible.

"John Locke, Montesqui and Blackstone; all of them were Christian thinkers. And that's two-thirds of our founders' writings, by explicitly Christian thinkers and the Bible," Lillback said.

Biblical Responsibility

Interestingly, the founding fathers didn't feel it was simply their right to overthrow their British rulers, but a biblical responsibility.

"There are clear passages in the Bible that when a ruler becomes a tyrant it is the duty of the people to overthrow him because he ceases to be a legitimate leader and is now a criminal," Hutchinson explained.

Two of the most famous founders felt so deeply about this idea, they thought it should become America's motto.   

"Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin both wanted to have the motto 'Rebellion to Tyrants is Obedience to God.' That's actually a very biblical idea," the author continued. 

Church and State

Some scholars say these founders wanted a high wall of separation between church and state, and infer that meant they wanted a vast distance between God and government.

"It's absolutely clear our founders did not want to separate God and government," Lillback claimed.  "The Declaration of Independence on four occasions refers to God and that created our government.  The last words in the United States Constitution say 'in the year of our Lord 1787.'  Every preamble of every state constitution begins with an affirmation of the existence of God."

Lillback says the wall the founders built with the First Amendment was to prevent America establishing a coercive state church like so many other countries.  So it wasn't to separate God and government.

"It was rather, 'We don't want the government to tell us how to interpret the Bible and how to use the Bible in our worship. We want to be protected from government coercion,'" he said.

The very fact the founders created a democratic republic is because of their biblical beliefs.

"Ancient Israelites were basically a tribal democracy and in Deuteronomy God commands that the people select leaders from all the people," Hutchinson said.

Representing the People

The founders who gathered here at Independence Hall time and again spoke of how they felt God expected them to forge a form of government that could best guard the rights He gave human beings. They searched diligently in the writings of top Christian philosophers for the best ideas.

"The Catholic theologian Thomas Aquinas thought that the ideal form of government was a mixed government that had elements of a democracy, an aristocracy and a kingship," he continued.

That's remarkably similar to what our founders created: a Congress to represent the people, a judiciary to judge their laws and an executive to execute those laws.

It's all meant to give the maximum amount of liberty to a free people and protect their God-given rights.

Free Will

"If you don't believe that human rights are something given by God, then they can be taken away at the whim of the state," Hutchinson said. "And we've seen that time and again when atheistic regimes have taken over."

When a citizen who met Ben Franklin outside Independence Hall asked what he and the other founders had created inside, he said, "A republic, if you can keep it."

The second president John Adams warned..."Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people."

In other words, only in a land where citizens believe God made men free will freedom long survive.

As Patrick Henry put it, "It is when a people forget God that tyrants forge their chains."

Hutchinson says, with few exceptions.
 
"The only countries on earth that actually practice religious tolerance and have civil liberties and political freedoms are those nations that descended from the biblical heritage," he said.

The reason it matters whether or not the founding fathers were true Christian believers is because if they weren't, how could they have formed a Christian nation?  And that's a crucial question of national identity.

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Cape Henry: The Beginning of a Christian Nation
 
On April 29th, 1607, a nation was born.  Travel-weary Englishmen landed at Cape Henry on the shores of Virginia and lay the foundation for what would become the most powerful country the world has ever seen.  Act 1, scene 1 of the drama that was to be the United States unfolded that day at Cape Henry, and sparked the legacy of Godliness on American shores.

America's destiny and purpose were sealed with that cross at Cape Henry.  All that would follow in our nation's growth hinged on the single proclamation that this land belonged to Jesus Christ.

In the Mayflower Compact of 1620, the Pilgrims reaffirmed the mission set forth by the original Virginia settlers.

"All of us were taught that the Pilgrims came to America for freedom of worship or religious freedom, but that's really not true," said Dr. Peter Marshall, an author and historian. "They said that they came to America to, 'propagate the gospel among the Indians and to become, themselves, stepping stones for the furtherance of the gospel to the outermost parts of the Earth.' So they were missionaries."

The Puritans carried the Cape Henry legacy further. On the deck of the Arbella, halfway between England and Cape Cod, leader John Winthrop declared, "We shall be as a city upon a hill. The eyes of all people are upon us, so that if we shall deal falsely with our God in this work we have undertaken and so cause him to withdraw his present help from us, we shall be made a story and a byword throughout the world."

"Winthrop's phrasing was revealing," said Marshall. "When you bring up Winthrop's phrase there, 'the city upon a hill,' that's the heart and the core of what America's been all about since day one. Point being here that the basis for American life was to be committed Christians who were to so let their light shine to one another and then to the whole world, that the world could see that as an example."

More than 100 years later, as America set off on her own course towards independence, the Godly foundations laid in Virginia established the character of our Revolution.

"Before God, I believe the hour has come," said John Adams of the Revolution. "My judgment approves this measure and my whole heart is in it. All that I have, all that I am and all that I hope in this life I am now ready to stake upon it. And I leave off as I began, that live or die, survive or perish, I am for the Declaration. It is my living sentiment, and by the blessing of God, it shall be my dying sentiment. Independence now and independence forever."

George Washington's pure, Christian heart, Benjamin Franklin's call to prayer and John Adams' reverence for the will of God symbolize the undying commitment of our Founding Fathers to the creation of a nation which would glorify God. The American character was born in Scripture and nurtured by the Holy Spirit, yet today, our national heritage is under siege.

Bishop James Madison warned of such a risk in 1795: "The moment that religion, the pure and undefiled religion, loses its influence over our hearts, from that fatal moment, farewell to public and private happiness. Farewell--a long farewell--to virtue, to patriotism, to liberty."

Four hundred years have passed since America was first conceived at Cape Henry, and respect for our roots is growing cold. Yet one undeniable fact still remains: At its core, the United States of America is a Christian nation

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mahshadin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2009 at 9:45am
abc
 
Are you saying that this country was built to serve christianity
 
Theocracy
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."   G Orwell
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2009 at 9:46am
Originally posted by abcdefg abcdefg wrote:

Another view of History,
 

Is America Really a Christian Nation?

For many people today, it's a controversial question, but not for the nation's founders who saw the Bible as the basis for the American revolution.

The men who fought a revolution and created a country -- the most free country to have ever existed-- once gathered in the Independence Hall in Philadelphia, Penn.




Thanks for putting this up abcdefg. I think it honestly reflect a realistic perspective as I was raised to believe in the Church of Christ (very much like Southern Baptist). This, I truly and deeply believe if you could take a time machine back to the days of the founding fathers, you would find deeply religious men (that was then) and women basing a nation on the moral principles and teachings of the Bible.

Some, like Mormons, and other fundamentalists (that doesn't mean hostile really mean you are going to burn types) still stick to those principles and have helped preserve the core of the family unit, and moral teachings which make for a strong and unified nation. The core of the New Testament is peace- not war- the core of Qu'ran is to conquer the world and force everyone to become Islam. It is not extreme. It is the basic teaching of the faith. No where in the Ko'ran does it teach to live in peace in harmony with those of all faiths. The Bible teaches to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, and do good to those who despitefully use this. This doctrine, one of peace and the force water- Piscean Age- brought the military might of Rome as a warrior state to its knees and utterly destroyed it with the Byzantine Empire.

This is IMHO as a Christian. I am deeply concerned at the growing lack of concern of the growth of the Muslim population which when it reaches a certain majority- is no longer tolerant of other faiths- and then extremists- terrorists - and organizations like the Taliban begin to attack, assassinate, and blow up themselves and many people with them.

This is a threat to our country- and although the thread has been subtly nudged away off topic, the continued belief that Iran is going to negotiate and we will find some kind of peaceful resolution to a country who is making nuclear weapons and arming to the teeth to attack Israel is out of contact with reality.  The conflict in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, and the Middle East is one that we through weariness are going to back away from and truly bring the war from there,  to our front yards and streets and watch our children die because of it- either fighting to protect our country- or so apathetic they do not fight at all.

Lowering our defenses, talking peace, does not secure our nation. And we are being washed by a sea of words which politicians talk for hours about health care and the destruction of the earth by industrial nations are worthless.

That which is to occur in 2020 is irrelevant when a full scale world war, multiple Pandemics, and a change of the America as we know it may occur before then.

We are a long way from the garden. Increased tolerance has decreased the entire of morality in our music, our media, and put us that much closer to the end of a country once strong and vital and under God, one nation, with liberty and justice for all.

This is my opinion and my belief as a Christian. Do good to all- all are our brothers and sisters- but we must defend our nations from those who would destroy it. And know and recognize we cannot tolerate terrorism or that which threatens us all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technologist Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2009 at 2:15pm
It's clear things have changed since the horse and buggy.
It's been 230+ years and not much is the same as it was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 23 2009 at 3:53pm
Originally posted by Technologist Technologist wrote:

It's clear things have changed since the horse and buggy.
It's been 230+ years and not much is the same as it was.


On this we agree. You realize how dangerous this is becoming Tech. We are nearing the R word- revolution. It fills the air. I was surprised at the end of the Bush experience that it didn't happen. Jefferson used to say we needed one every now and then.

Want to see a scary link?

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2009/03/28/rep-bachman-calls-for-revolution/


REP. MICHELLE BACHMAN (R-MN): At this point the American people – it’s like Thomas Jefferson said, a revolution every now and then is a good thing. We are at the point, Sean, of revolution. And by that, what I mean, an orderly revolution where the people of this country wake up get up and make a decision that this is not going to happen on their watch. It won’t be our children and grandchildren that are in debt. It is we who are in debt, we who will be bankrupting this country, inside of ten years, if we don’t get a grip. And we can’t let the Democrats achieve their ends any longer.

comment: so we were promised change- a revolution of sort form the 8 years of Republican stuff that people came to hate. Did we get it?

Did we get change and improvement, better economy, more jobs, etc. We got -

well- this is really tough you know.

... where angels fear to tread huh..

the truth.

Medclinician


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