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EMP strike on USA

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KiwiMum View Drop Down
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    Posted: October 24 2017 at 10:24pm
I saw this in the British news this morning. It doesn't bode well for you Americans, but as I was reading it I thought "If I can read this then presumably Kim Jong-un can read it too." I know he bans his subjects for using google but I bet he's got it on his computer.

If it is to be, it is up to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2017 at 5:23am
Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

I saw this in the British news this morning. It doesn't bode well for you Americans, but as I was reading it I thought "If I can read this then presumably Kim Jong-un can read it too." I know he bans his subjects for using google but I bet he's got it on his computer.



This is very timely KiwiMum and DrJohn Ray and I have discussed this scenario many times. Both of us have backgrounds in the military and I in the field of nuclear missiles and technology.

We calculated a point of detonation near the East Coast which I won't give exactly, that could pretty much shut down the grid in New York, D.C. and all the way to Chicago.  What is a lot more disturbing is the North Koreans have a satellite which pass directly through this point or very close.




http://www.wnd.com/2016/04/emp-alert-2-n-korean-satellites-now-orbit-over-u-s/

WASHINGTON – North Korea now has two satellites orbiting over the United States capable of performing a surprise electromagnetic pulse attack at an altitude and trajectory that evade U.S. National Missile Defenses, a national security expert warned in an interview with Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

Peter Vincent Pry told G2 Bulletin that the satellites can be commanded either to deorbit and hit a target on the ground or explode at a high altitude to create an EMP effect that would knock out the unprotected U.S. national electrical grid system and all life-sustaining critical infrastructures that depend on it.

“The threat,” Pry said, “continues to race, hare-like, at an alarming rate, compared to the tortoise pace of our preparations.”

The satellites – KMS 3-2 and KMS 4 – are orbiting at an altitude of 300 miles, with trajectories that put them daily over the U.S. KMS 3-2 was launched in December 2012 and KMS 4 was launched Feb. 7.

At such an altitude, an EMP could impact much of the continental United States, according to EMP experts.

Pry is executive director of the Task Force on National and Homeland Security and director of the U.S. Nuclear Strategy Forum, both congressional advisory boards. He also served on the congressionally mandated EMP commission and as an analyst with the Central Intelligence Agency.

The development comes at the same time North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has ordered his rocket forces to prepare for a nuclear attack on the U.S. The communist regime has released videos depicting nuclear attacks on Washington and New York City.

North Korea, meanwhile, is preparing for its fourth underground nuclear detonation. Pry said it’s really a hydrogen bomb with a purposefully low yield designed to emit more gamma rays for an EMP effect rather than for physical destruction on the ground.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2017 at 2:22pm
Originally posted by Medclinician Medclinician wrote:


WASHINGTON – North Korea now has two satellites orbiting over the United States capable of performing a surprise electromagnetic pulse attack at an altitude and trajectory that evade U.S. National Missile Defenses, a national security expert warned in an interview with Joseph Farah’s G2 Bulletin.

Peter Vincent Pry told G2 Bulletin that the satellites can be commanded either to deorbit and hit a target on the ground or explode at a high altitude to create an EMP effect that would knock out the unprotected U.S. national electrical grid system and all life-sustaining critical infrastructures that depend on it.

“The threat,” Pry said, “continues to race, hare-like, at an alarming rate, compared to the tortoise pace of our preparations.”

The satellites – KMS 3-2 and KMS 4 – are orbiting at an altitude of 300 miles, with trajectories that put them daily over the U.S. KMS 3-2 was launched in December 2012 and KMS 4 was launched Feb. 7.

At such an altitude, an EMP could impact much of the continental United States, according to EMP experts.

Pry is executive director of the Task Force on National and Homeland Security and director of the U.S. Nuclear Strategy Forum, both congressional advisory boards. He also served on the congressionally mandated EMP commission and as an analyst with the Central Intelligence Agency.

The development comes at the same time North Korean leader Kim Jong Un has ordered his rocket forces to prepare for a nuclear attack on the U.S. The communist regime has released videos depicting nuclear attacks on Washington and New York City.

North Korea, meanwhile, is preparing for its fourth underground nuclear detonation. Pry said it’s really a hydrogen bomb with a purposefully low yield designed to emit more gamma rays for an EMP effect rather than for physical destruction on the ground.


Medclinician


Sorry, I don't buy it.  Generating an EMP large enough to shut down a widespread power grid takes more than a "satellite," it would take a thermonuclear explosion of a specific type.  

Lobbing any type of missile into US territory would be an instant death sentence for Kim Jon Un and NK, and they know it.  Even if they shut down all of the continental USA, we have plenty of nuclear assets at sea and abroad who would pound the country to dust.  China might also get involved in the exchange, depending upon how they responded. 

The risk of a NK bomb is that they sell it to others, or pre-deploy a warhead in Seoul, LA etc.  Missile delivery is just too uncertain to risk one of your few high-yield weapons with, they'd be idiots to try it. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2017 at 4:25pm

Could a North Korean EMP Attack on the U.S. Really Cause Mass Starvation and Societal Collapse?

http://www.newsweek.com/could-north-korean-emp-attack-could-cause-mass-starvation-and-societal-691736

“The point of modern propaganda isn’t only to misinform or push an agenda. It is to exhaust your critical thinking, to annihilate truth.” Gary Kasparov
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2017 at 7:31pm
I read once that the huge transistors that are needed for the power grid to function have a replacement lead time of 2 years. So getting the grid up and running again would be problematic. 

How do you think off-grid systems would fare?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 25 2017 at 9:29pm
Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

Could a North Korean EMP Attack on the U.S. Really Cause Mass Starvation and Societal Collapse?

http://www.newsweek.com/could-north-korean-emp-attack-could-cause-mass-starvation-and-societal-691736


No.  

This is impossible, a device capable of causing a coast-to-coast EMP would not be compatible with a satellite platform. 

The amount of disinformation going around is really starting to honk me off.  

Pry said that North Korea could conceal a device in a satellite and detonate it remotely via an encoded signal, or time a device to detonate on an ICBM or even when intercepted by U.S. missile defense systems.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 3:11am
Spot on, KiwiMum.  

Although that does not take into account the inconvenient fact that the factories which make the giant transformers run on the electricity, which they can't get after an EMP. Those transformers are made by workers driving cars to get in to work, which may need new solenoids etc..  Those workers become sick when their electricity driven local sewage plants stop working, for lack of electricity to operate the pumps.  

The domino effect is widespread and terrifying.

Chuck is, as always, right about the implausibility of NK doing this, but a carrington event is going to happen one day.  The time is unpredictable, but unlike NK's attacks, a complete certainty.  (Off-grid systems are likely to fare better after a carrington event as it is the length of cables multiplied by the strength of the pulse which generates the electricity to burn things out.  they can be shielded as well, or emp-hardened as the military put it)



..........................  'And the 'norms' wonder why we prep.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 3:27am
I wonder what the countries around NK, think about fall out from any nuculear retaliation the US might use on NK ,and we keep on about nuclear attack,what if he uses something like VX,or smallpox, or any bio weapon,
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WillobyBrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 3:40am
You are absolutely correct in your understanding of the effects of an EMP, Kiwimum, regardless of its point of origin.  Only the military would remain able to control a post-carrington-event situation as their equipment, from jet fighters to staff cars, are hardened against this sort of situation.  

However, it has been estimated that there would be a ten year hiatus before modern production standards could be brought back online.  This is because very few of the transformers of all shapes and sizes, including the ones you see on poles, are ready made and kept in reserve.  At our peak it is estimated we could replace one in eight.  These will be commandeered for emergency services and essential production facilities.  

In the event of a nuclear strike being the reason for the EMP, there will, of course, be extreme civil unrest and people will not be going to work; they will be trying to save their families.  In a serious/unlimited strike, any surviving government would, almost certainly, be killed on sight by the people, who will see their leaders as having failed to protect them and led the people, by their own  power and glory-seeking into war.  Modern people would revert to acts of barbarism you could only imagine in your darkest nightmares.  Civilization would probably end as we know it and a reversion to tribalism would take place.  

People who seek power, whether they are right, left or center do not do it out of altruism, though they would, of course, claim that is the case.  They do it for power, glory and money; so the situation that their people find themselves in, with or without such an event taking place, really means nothing to them.   "We the people" are just the means to an end.  

Remember the preppers motto and "Be prepared."  When I was a child in New Zealand we had a symbol of forward progress and thinking called "Mount Aspiring".  That thinking process will save a naturally caring and progressive nation like New Zealand, at least in the less populated South island.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 4:02am
Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by Satori Satori wrote:

Could a North Korean EMP Attack on the U.S. Really Cause Mass Starvation and Societal Collapse?

http://www.newsweek.com/could-north-korean-emp-attack-could-cause-mass-starvation-and-societal-691736


No.  

This is impossible, a device capable of causing a coast-to-coast EMP would not be compatible with a satellite platform. 

The amount of disinformation going around is really starting to honk me off.  

Pry said that North Korea could conceal a device in a satellite and detonate it remotely via an encoded signal, or time a device to detonate on an ICBM or even when intercepted by U.S. missile defense systems.


If I were making this plan I would have the satellite appear to be failing and just falling. This is doable - there could be a minor explosion or cover technical difficulty. It is unlikely we would shoot down a falling satellite. Has this ever been done with missiles?   You do miss the logic in a satellite put up there for the express purpose and mission of doing such a need with a clock of a determined time which would need no signal. Looking at the bomb by Kim Jong Un what exactly would be the difficulty in concealing that?  Bombs don't have have to look like bombs. Use some common sense and creativity. If they can put explosive in the heels of shoes on planes, they can put plutonium in something looking like just another part of the structure, it the whole thing is a bomb.

http://modernsurvivalblog.com/emp-electro-magnetic-pulse/high-altitude-emp/

High Altitude EMP

Ken Jorgustin September 4, 2014 25 Comments
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Any nuclear detonation above 25 miles will cause a high altitude EMP (electromagnetic pulse).

A nuclear weapon detonated at an altitude of 200 miles could affect all unprotected electrical equipment within the continental United States.

Nuclear weapons at that altitude could be detonated from a satellite, an intercontinental ballistic missile, or from a ‘Scud’ type missile launched from a freighter. Depending on the location and size of the blast, the effect would be to knock out the power grid across most, if not all, of the continental United States.

comment: so are you going to intercept a satellite has dropped to 200 miles up? Russian satellites have had deteriorating orbits and just fell. 

One of the things I think is odd is we consider terrorists and North Korea mentally challenged. This may have been doable as we treated the Muslim terrorists like goat herders in Pakistan - but these are not goat herders and they are developing this technology to sell to Iran and other unstable nations. They have huge money surpluses as Kim has socked away billions - so despite sanctions - which are still  not that tough- perhaps Kim still feels we won't attack because he would vaporize South Korea with nukes and even Japan. Japan nuking is a doable event now. If they can fly over it with a nuke - they can nuke it.

Kim Jong-un might be a little suicidal or willing  to gamble that China would step in and Russia an also launch attacks. They are not our allies and they don't like us.

While you could track optically a free falling object with a smart missile - if there were no heat signature and and small pneumatic bursts went off during the fall to alter the trajectory, it would be a lot harder.

Yet the biggest challenge will be when there are minutes to decide and who is going to decide? 

Just a few thoughts.  If it wasn't a threat, the military and defense people would not be so concerned.

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Thankfully we have a Faraday cage,

HURRAY for Faraday.....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Satori Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 6:50am
realistic scenario or just trash talking ???

Ten Million Died The Very First Day, And Then It Got Worse
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/10/25/1709950/-Ten-Million-Died-That-Very-First-Day-And-Then-It-Got-Worse

November 2017 - President Donald Trump makes a “surprise” visit the to the DMZ. Promises that any future nuclear provocations by “Little Rocket Man Kim” will be met with a response “like the world has never seen. Believe me!”

December 2017 - Chairman Kim Jong Un conducts a successful 100 kiloton thermonuclear bomb test in the Pacific Ocean 600 miles northwest of Guam.

January 2018 - President Donald Trump orders a “decapitation strike”. The US conducts a massive conventional missile and bombing campaign intended to eliminate North Korea’s missile and artillery capability as well as kill the North Korean leadership. The strike is only marginally successful in degrading the North Korean forces and the leadership is not killed, but President Donald Trump tweets its success, “Little Rocket Man goes boom!”

Chairman Kim Jong Un determines his only option is a ‘use it or lose it’ response. Within ten minutes, the 15,000 remaining North Korean artillery guns open up on US and South Korean forces across the DMZ, as well as civilian targets in Seoul and Incheon, with both conventional and chemical warheads. Hundreds of missiles start to rain down on the cities. 100,000 people including over 10,000 US troops die in the first fifteen minutes of the barrage, and one half a million people are severely injured. Civil society breaks down and chaos reigns as people try to flee the cities. One half hour later five 100 kiloton nuclear armed missiles strike and detonate among the fleeing masses. Two million people are vaporized instantly and another six million receive lethal radiation exposure. In addition, a 100 kiloton nuclear missile strikes Tokyo killing one million Japanese citizens and irradiating three million.

President Donald Trump orders a massive nuclear attack against North Korean military and strategic assets. One hour later twenty ten megaton thermonuclear missiles strike killing a half million North Korean troops outright and four million civilians as well as the entire North Korean leadership. Over five million receive lethal doses of radiation including a half million civilians across the border in China.

Mysteriously, within two hours three 10 kiloton nuclear explosions, believed to have been smuggled in shipping containers, detonate in the harbors of New York, San Francisco and Los Angeles killing two million and radiating fifteen million US citizens.

...and then it gets worse, much much worse.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 8:17am
That is possible, Satori, but not very probable.

Donald Trump is more likely to take us back into war with NK than any person since the ceasefire.  Kim Jong Un is more likely to let him than even his dad or granddad.   Thankfully, both have generals with a few braincells between them.  Admittedly, the job of any general is made harder by power-obsessed leaders with delicate egos and no conscience.  But, knowing the awful consequences, herculean efforts will be made on both sides to stop the orange buffoon and the red one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 8:20am
Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

Thankfully we have a Faraday cage,

HURRAY for Faraday.....


I know. We were developing those for computers and they can be very effective. You can also buy one that goes around your bedroom keeping what is inside undamaged including your computer.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 10:05am
Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:


Chuck is, as always, right about the implausibility of NK doing this, but a carrington event is going to happen one day.  The time is unpredictable, but unlike NK's attacks, a complete certainty.  

..........................  'And the 'norms' wonder why we prep.

Damn straight, Techno!  That is my No. 1 concern (massive solar flare with coronal mass ejection aka Carrington event). 

Here's a good read on the topic, I learned a few things (i.e. the involvement of the ground as a conductor during an EMP event)

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WillobyBrat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 11:39am
That's right, Chuck.  Go on; spoil my fun!  I was really looking forward to seeing all the numpties with 6 inch long thumbs, trying to resussitate those little squeaky boxes they play with and reaching for their smoldering computers in the dark.  I wonder if they would still find it funny when an old geezer like me likes to pay with little bits of paper instead of rubbing a weird plastic thin over a squeaking and beeping box at the supermarket checkout.  Come to think of it, the pretty little checkout girl, in the cafe section, wouldn't have an excuse to spend ten minutes explaining to me how to use the cash card for my black coffee (or is that americano?).  Come to think of it, I was brought up with gaslights, candles and a log fire.  My wife regularly cooks on the top of our woodburning stove just to keep her hand in.  AAAAAH, back to 1940s on the Canterbury plains.

Just kidding, but it does not really bother me.  

Note from wife:  It bothers me.  You can do the washing with two stones if you wish!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 26 2017 at 11:36pm
Does anyone know how a Carrington Event or an EMP would affect off grid supplies? We have a fully standalone system with no grid ties at all. 

Secondly, if the US was disabled either partially or fully by an EMP, I wonder if they would even be able to get new transistors at all, since it's my understanding that all the big important ones are made in China. Perhaps China would decide not to co-operate and leave the US in a state of disarray. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 27 2017 at 2:19am
It's hard to say, Kiwimum.  The amount of current produced is strength of CME X  length of cables.  in theory you should be a bit less vulnerable than those of ud on the national grid, as there are no long supply cables.  But, whether or not that difference is enough depends on the strength of the CME and how direct a hit it is.  it is probably best to have some contingency plan in place for a burnout.  Unless everything is shielded, my guess is that, you are still at risk.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Medclinician Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: October 31 2017 at 9:39am
The North Koreans have plans to put up more satellites. They current do have nuclear warheads and small enough to mount in a satellite. This would completely invalidate all the debates concerning whether the current ones passing over the East Coast and other parts of America have one. These will and could be use to set off an EMP.

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