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Shotgun as Rifle?

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Spoon View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:13am
Some of you may remember that I asked for rifle recommendations a while back.  I haven't made any decisions yet.  I do not foresee any need to go past 75-100 yards.
 
Any thoughts on using slugs in my shotgun (Mossberg 590).
It's not so much the apocalypse... but the credit card bills ;-)
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bruss01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:30am
12 gauge slug will definitely make an impression on whatever's downrange.
 
Recoil is pretty stout, recovery time for follow-up shots is going to be longer.  You'll need a range that will allow you to practice shooting slugs at targets.  You'll also likely need a good recoil pad if you're going to do much practice (ow). 
 
There are rifle barrel inserts that go into shotguns to allow you to fire rifle rounds.  I have not heard anything much about them except don't expect them to be as accurate as a real rifle, and I'm pretty sure you can only load one at a time, manually (obviously the tube magazine will not work for this).  That would be more of a "hunting for survival" thing rather than a defensive use thing, except in the most desperate of circumstances.
 
While I definitely do think a shotgun is a good defensive tool, and shotgun slugs do defintely have their uses, I would not want to be without a rifle.  An SKS rifle is affordable to buy and very affordable to feed (usually).  I would even prefer a surplus bolt rifle to having only a shotgun.
 
Here's a question to ask yourself:  If you have to go on foot, you may want 100 rounds of ammo on you.  How does carying 100 shotgun slugs compare to carrying 100 rounds of .308 or .223 or 7.62 x 39?  Big difference.  Add to that the added range and accuracy of a rifle round, and it's easy to see why rifles are so darn useful.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrew p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:31am
Hey Spoon how do you like that mossberg 590? Do you think the extra features on the 590 make it worth the extra $100 over the 500?

I was just checking these out yesterday.
It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark.
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bruss01 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:39am

Andrew,

I have a Mossberg 590 too.  I like it a lot. Honestly, I think the Mossy 500 is just as good.  Maybe not so impressive looks-wise, but hey, spend the other $100 on buckshot and call it a day.
 
I think a deer or a bad guy on the other end will have a hard time telling the difference.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:44am
Bruss,
 
The "People's Republic of New Jersey" restricts most of the rifles recommended from the first post.
 
If I could impose on your generiousity one more time, can you look at the list below of restricted firearms and make a recommendation that works for me... and my state.
_________

New Jersey law restricts the ownership of certain semi-automatic and other firearms based upon their military appearance. The list includes:

Algimec AGM1 type

Any shotgun with a revolving cylinder such as the

"Street Sweeper" or "Striker 12"

Armalite AR-180 type

Australian Automatic Arms SAR

Avtomat Kalashnikov type semi-automatic firearms

Beretta AR-70 and BM59 semi-automatic firearms

Bushmaster Assault rifle

Calico M-900 Assault carbine and M-900

CETME G3

Chartered Industries of Singapore SR-88 type

Colt AR-15 and CAR-15 seriesDaewoo K-1, K-2, Max 1 and Max 2, AR 100 types

Demro TAC-1 carbine type

Encom MP-9 and MP-45 carbine types

FAMAS MAS223 types

FN-FAL, FN-LAR, or FN-FNC type semi-automatic firearms

Franchi SPAS 12 and LAW 12 Shotguns

G3SA type

Galil type Heckler and Koch HK91, HK93, HK94, MP5, PSG-1

Intratec TEC-9 and 22 semi-automatic firearms

M1 carbine type

M14S type

MAC10, MAC11, MAC11-9mm carbine type firearms

PJK M-68 carbine type

Plainfield Machine Co. Carbine

Ruger K-Mini-14/5F and Mini-1 4/5RF

SIG AMT, SIG 550SP, SIG 551SP, SIG PE-57 types

SKS with detachable magazine type

Spectre Auto carbine type

Springfield Armory BM59 and SAR-48 type

Sterling MK-6, MK-7, and SAR types

Steyr A.U.G. semi-automatic firearms

USAS 12 semi-automatic type shotgun

Uzi type semi-automatic firearms

Valmet M62, M71S, M76, or M78 type semi-automatic firearms

Weaver Arms Nighthawk

Any firearms which are substantially identical to any of the above firearms; any semiautomatic shotgun with either a magazine capacity exceeding six rounds, a conspicuous pistol grip, or a folding stock; a semi automatic rifle with a fixed magazine capacity exceeding 15 rounds. Any magazine with a capacity greater than fifteen rounds is prohibited, even if there is no semi-automatic firearm to accompany the magazine unless the person has a registered "assault firearm" and the magazine is used for DCM sanctioned shooting matches.

A part or combination of parts to convert or assemble a firearm into an "assault firearm" is also forbidden.

Any "assault firearm" not registered, licensed, or rendered inoperable pursuant to a state police certificate by May 1, 1991, is considered contraband.

Any "assault firearm" which was not owned prior to May 1, 1990, must be licensed. Application is made to the Superior Court for the county in which the person lives or conducts business. The fee is $75. The court must find that the public safety and welfare require the issuance of the license and the person must be qualified to obtain a handgun carrying license. For practical purposes, no one will be issued such a license.

If the owner of an assault firearm which has been registered dies, the owner`s heirs or estate shall have 90 days if unable to get a license to either transfer the assault firearm to any person or firm lawfully entitled to own or possess such firearm; render the assault firearm inoperable; or voluntarily surrender the assault firearm. According to the state police, removal of the firearm from New Jersey to a state where the gun would be legal is also allowed.

It's not so much the apocalypse... but the credit card bills ;-)
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andrew p View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrew p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:47am
Right-o Bruss. That sounds like good advice. I am just trying to figure out how to arm myself. The mossberg looks like a good home defense tool, and I'd like to start deer hunting this year, so I'll be looking for a rifle as well.

Seems like a concealable gun would be a good idea as well. In a post pandemic period where we are all going out again, one might not want to go out to market with a shotgun.
It wasn't raining when Noah built the Ark.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RicheeRich Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:00am

With slugs, accuracy might be an issue at 100 yards (might be for me, anyway). Without rifling, they just don't quite fly right. It is ONE HECK OF A KNUCKLEBALL, though.

If money is an issue, the .223 semiauto rifle, with a healthy stash of ammo, sounds pretty good.

 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:07am
Andrew,  if you're interested in deer and a Mossberg floats your boat, then look into some of their "combo" sets... a short 18" barrel for defense, and a long barrel for hunting.  I believe they have sets where the longer barrel is rifled for use with slugs.
 
Spoon -
 
Wow.  They got the M1 carbine.
 
Take a close squint at that list.  I notice that NJ shares this prohibition with CA:
 
SKS with detachable magazine type
 
That's a very specific type of SKS rifle, to my recollection they were made only in China.  MOST SKS rifles are not of this type.  Right now, very affordable SKS rifles are available from Yugoslavia.  They DO NOT HAVE A DETACHABLE MAGAZINE.  They have a FIXED 10 round magazine that can be loaded using stripper clips.  These rifles are not SUBSTANTIALLY IDENTICAL to the banned ones, because ability to use a detachable magazine is a profound mechanical difference.
 
Double check with your local gun store to be sure, but I see nothing in the text provided that leads me to believe a normal, garden-variety SKS rifle would be verboten in NJ.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:20am
Andrew, I would recommend the military grade Mossberg (thicker barrel, metal parts, field stock) and ghost ring sites.
 
Bruss, how would I go about purchasing an SKS?
It's not so much the apocalypse... but the credit card bills ;-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:58am
Spoon,
 
2 ways I know of:
 
Go down to the gun or sporting goods store, pick one out, pay for it, do the paperwork (check state laws, the gunstore should know these by heart), endure the insufferable waiting period, then go collect your new baby on the appointed day.  Not sure if NJ requres any up front papers, like IL requires their FOID card and CA requres a Handgun Safety Cert for new handgun purchases.  If so, you'll need that handled.  NJ is a complicated state when it comes to firearms, check with a local expert to get the best advice.
 
Or:  find a local FFL who will accept shipment from these folks:
 
The FFL will handle all the paper work.  InterOrdnance will need him to send a copy of his FFL license before they will ship.  I have bought 3 SKS rifles this way.  These rifles are actual military hardware, fully functional, battle-tested tough.  They are used guns though, so for this AWESOME cost savings it requires a bit of effort on your part to get them up and running.  I recommend you send the trigger assembly to a guy named Kivaari in TX ($60) to have the sear inspected and adjusted for safety.  Also makes for a better, more accurate trigger.  Also send the bolt to Ben Murray (also in TX) to have the firing pin replaced ($30).  The entire rifle will be smothered in cosmoline, a greasy/waxy substance used as a long-term preservative.  You will become INTIMATELY acquainted with your rifle thru disassembling it, lovingly liberating it from it's cosmoline cocoon, and re-assembling it.  For $50 IO will clean it up for you, but then you lose out on the "bonding experience".  So your're into it for about $200 plus transfer fees & paperwork.  I don't think you can find more gun for the money anywhere.
 
Of course if cost is no object these are REALLY NICE:

Remington 7615P - pump action rifle in .223 accepts standard AR magazines.  10 round magazines are available.  Price  $650 - $675
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CitizenBlue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 12:41pm
Forgive me for jumping into the fray here. I have noticed that there is a blurring of personal protection and hunting fire arms going on. I know most of you know the difference (bruss, spoon) but many may not.

If hunting is primary concern, identify what it is you are going to hunt and choose a fire arm accordingly. Deer hunting in the west largely requires a rifle of at least a 30 caliber, in the east or thick woods a 12 gauge with buck shot will work just fine. Bird hunting requires a shotgun with bird shot, but you better think about bird game hunting this season when north american species start to become infected.

Personal protection is a whole different animal. If you are shooting over a distance of say 50 feet, the threat assessment is probably questionable. Don't ever forget what is beyond your target, and popping off rounds in your neighborhood is not only stupid and dangerous, but barring an "end of world" scenario you will go to jail leaving your family unprotected and you exposed to close confinement in an over crowded jail. In addition, I can tell you that if some idiot kills a member of my family through fire arm stupidity...

Encounters of self protection nature occur with in 5-10 feet. This is the reality. So, if you have a handgun you better know how to use it in close quarters. Same with a shotgun. A rifle is usually not practical this close. I recommend a semi-automatic handgun with the largest caliber that you feel comfortable with. If you want only one firearm, go with a 12 gauge pump, this can be used for dual purpose (protection & hunting). As for deer slugs, not needed for self protection (they carry up to a mile). Bird shot is just fine for this close range, buck shot to extend out 50 feet if needed. For specifics refer to Bruss or Spoon.   



    
    
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 12:55pm
Originally posted by andrew p andrew p wrote:

Hey Spoon how do you like that mossberg 590? Do you think the extra features on the 590 make it worth the extra $100 over the 500?

I was just checking these out yesterday.
 
 
Where are you that they are in stock!! ?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote andrew p Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 1:03pm
Right in stock at Dick's sporting goods, Williston, Vermont. $257 for the 500. $357 for the 590. They dont have the 590A.

Even though we had a democratic governor for 10 years (Screamin' Howard Dean!) he got an A from the NRA.

No permit required to carry a concealed weapon either, I recently learned.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 1:11pm
CB - no quarrel with anything you've said.  We've discussed most of those points in other threads, but always good to have the disclaimers for those who may be just now joining us.  Re: blurring of defense vs. hunting - sometimes this is necessary if one truly can afford only one gun.  A shotgun, especially one with interchangeable barrels, can be HIGHLY versatile. A .22 can be good for taking small game, but can also be pressed into defensive use in a pinch. Not ideal, but an option.
 
I prefer the shotgun for Home Defense, a pistol for wearing at all times in a crisis (since it's unlikely you'll be toting your shotgun around the house while doing dishes, the moment some hoodlum decides to kick down your front door) for immediate response.  A rifle would be for rare occasions when there is a legitimate, identified threat beyond pistol and shotgun range or hardened targets that need superior penetration.  Liability for wayward shots becomes a HUGE concern in such instances, and hopefully one has had training which will help mitigate the risks involved.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scott Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 1:36pm
Hey Guys,
Purchased the Mossberg 590 and had it fitted with a Knoxx stock. Recoil, WHAT RECOIL!. I am only a customer and not affiliated with Knoxx but this product does what it says and is awesome!! Less recoil allows my wife (petite) to utilize 12 gauge accurately. Also allows for faster reaquisition of target. Which is what is needed when you need to put rounds down range accurately and quickly. Check out the video. Product is SPEC OPS price is $129. Broadband link is there.
http://www.knoxx.com/index.html

Hope this helps,
Scott
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Improvise Adapt and Overcome!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMcB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 2:22pm
Spoon.....Couple links on firearms for home defence.
 
Thus, a .410 bore shotgun is a great choice. A 3 inch .410 shot shell fires 3/4 ounce of shot at 1100 feet per second, resulting in approximately 800 foot pounds of energy at the muzzle, and a 2 " .410 with ounce of shot produces approximately 600 foot pounds at the muzzle. The delivered energy at the defense ranges considered here are greater than a .357 Magnum revolver cartridge, but the longer barrel and greater weight of the shotgun results in less than half the noise and recoil. More important, the shot pattern is about 8 inches in diameter at 20 feet (full choke), and does not generally penetrate a wall, whereas a .357 Mag bullet pierces walls easily...and unintended victims on the other side"
 
 
 
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 3:09pm
Shocked  a .410?!
 
Althoug I personally would not like to find myself looking down the business end of the barrel of one, I can't believe this is being touted as a superior defensive firearm.  Lack of penetration in this context is a minus, not a plus.  If it won't penetrate drywall, it won't penetrate a biker's leather jacket, tough hide and do any real "stopping power" damage to the internals.  It will be an inconvenience, yes... painful, yes... a deterrent, maybe... a stopper, NO.  Unless you're using a slug, ok. 
 
Yes, I visited the site.  My jaw is still hanging.   Just because it's in print doesn't mean we are wise to stake our lives on it!  I would personally disagree with the recommendation of a .410 as a primary home defense firearm.  As a last resort, it would be better than nothing... but not as the primary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JMcB Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 4:37pm

.As for penetraion, Mr. Stair was compairing a shotgun to handgun at close range. An intruder shot at 20 feet w/a .357, the bullet will likley go through him/her and then to who knows where. Where as with a shotgun (#4 shot), it is unlikely the shot will exit the body and penetate drywall. Of course, a .410 at 1100 fps w/800 lbs. of energy at 20' will penetrate both leather and drywall. But,if you hit the intruder, he/she will be in for a long term "dirt nap" and your dog napping in the other room will be kept out of harms way.


The point is that a .410 at 20' will deliver a larger pattern and more energy than a .357 with 1/2 the noise and recoil of a 12ga.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 4:59pm
Originally posted by JMcB JMcB wrote:

 An intruder shot at 20 feet w/a .357, the bullet will likley go through him/her and then to who knows where.
 
Which is why any sane person using a pistol in a suburban neighborhood uses ammo that reliably expands or fragments on impact, dumping all it's energy into the target. 
 
I don't know... the numbers say you may be right on some points, but I just couldn't have confidence in it.  Besides, .410 is more expensive ammo than 12 or 20 gauge.  Honestly I'd feel more comfortable with my .357.  And confidence and skill with one's chosen firearm do make a difference, IMHO.  I just don't feel I could have confidence in the .410.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Spoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2006 at 5:31pm
Bruss,
 
Are you saying I may be able to pick up a SKS at one of my local gunshops?
It's not so much the apocalypse... but the credit card bills ;-)
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