Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese


Forum Home Forum Home > Home & Family Planning > General Planning Tips
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - I’m not sure how to do this!
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic.

I’m not sure how to do this!

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: I’m not sure how to do this!
    Posted: March 29 2006 at 4:04am
    Ok, I am pretty much a city girl, though I have camped a lot and can make a fire. When we are forced to stay in, and if we lose electricity, I thought I would use my camp stove. But someone said you can't use it inside safely. If we cook outside we invite the entire city to see that we have food, and fuel. Is there another way? Cooking is one of my main issues. If we lose heat, I'm not sure either. I guess I will try to stock up on blankets and down comfortors. I feel so ignorant on this stuff. I have been stockpiling food and water, batteries etc, but this fuel thing-there are so many opinions. Help?
Back to Top
Amethyst View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amethyst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 5:30am
I live in the Twin Cities, MN area.  If things start to get really bad (as in, social order breaks down), I'm going to leave the city and head up north to my parents' cabin.  Staying here would invite looters and who knows what else. 
 
I expect the electricity will be on during the first few weeks of a quarantine at least, so not too many worries there.  I don't think we'll lose everything immediately, it'll probably happen in stages. 
Back to Top
KatDoe67 View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member


Joined: February 02 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 234
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KatDoe67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 5:53am
Propane cylinders do not give off poisonous vapours BUT the strong flame emits more carbon dioxide than MIGHT be OK. I've been doing as much research as possible on this. I tried chafing pot fuel, which is considered safe and it's enough to warm and will boil 2 1/2 cups water in 45 minutes...but I need more.
 
I bought a 1 burner coleman stove and will be using it indoors making sure to use as little fuel as possible. I'll mostly be just boiling 2 1/2 cups water at a time and using freezer bag and thermos cooking. If I crack a window or use it on the porch, I'll use a small pressure cooker and again burn as little fuel as possible.
 
Even candles can kill with carbon dioxide in a small enough space :-0
 
I guess the point is to emit as little CO2 as possible, in the biggest space possible :-0 So burning 100 candles for an hour is not safer than burning propane for 5 minutes, even though we are told candles are safe, but propane isn't.
 
I did see an indoor Butane stove at Target, but I was afraid to be dependant on a rare fuel.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 9:04am
A lot of homes heat with propane, I also do. You also have propane cookstoves which are very safe to use. There are propane refridgerators, water heaters etc.
Propane is not a problem to use indoors, it is very, very safe. I have no idea where people got this idea it isn't.
Where I live maybe 80% heat and cook with propane. Ever see all the advertisments on TV for propane?
Coleman fulid is that is what you use, might be another story. If it is what you use, operate it near a doorway so the fumes can go outside.
If you do use propane, buy a couple of the 20 lb bottles (BBQ grill size) and buy an adapter and hose to hook them up with. This will be cheaper in the long run.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 9:16am

Most campers (RVs) use propane stoves inside the trailer - very small space.  I think (my opinion) that cooking inside with propane is fine.  Crack a couple of windows to let in a little fresh air if you have any doubt.  

Back to Top
jtg1969 View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: February 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 14
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jtg1969 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 10:13am
I would keep a battery-operated Carbon Monoxide Detector in the same room you use your propane stove just to be safe.  Maybe try it out now to see if it is ok.  If it isn't you still have time to consider your options.
Back to Top
bruss01 View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: January 12 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 10:22am
Ok, I am behind the curve in posting the results of our "Dry Run" so I am stealing my own thunder here....
 
We used a 2 burner propane stove indoors for 2 days.  All our cooking was done on this stove, and we did substantial cooking using both 1 and 2 burners at the same time for upwards of 30-45 minutes.  During this time we also burned candles and oil lanterns in the house and even a fire in the fireplace. No windows were opened for ventillation. The propane stove had all kinds of dire warnings about carbon monoxide and not to use it indoors yada yada yada.
 
I bought a battery powered carbon monoxide detector with a digital read out indicating CO in parts-per-million (PPM).  We kept it next to the propane stove the entire weekend.  The digital read out never budged from "0".
 
 
Back to Top
Fla_Medic View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: March 17 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 87
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fla_Medic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 10:25am
Bruss01, that's been my experience too.

Used a propane camp stove aboard my 23' sailboat for years, never had a problem.  Wouldn't leave it on all night as a heater, but for cooking?  I don't think it's a problem.


Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 10:34am
    Wow, thanks a lot for the info. Your run-through will help so many of us, what a smart thing to do. I think for many of us this whole thing is so overwhelming that it gets a little paralyzing. I see so many choices, but my good old camp stove worked well on our family camp outs, so i know how to use it. Walmart has the small propane tanks for really cheap. If I buy the big tank, as for a grill, where do I get the adaptors for that? Is it easy enough for a non-handy person like me to use? Single here and not very good at fixing things myself!
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:57am
I bought my adapter and hose from walmart. If they don't have the adapter, look online for propane tank adapter. Also a Mr Buddy heater is a great source of heat. Uses the small bottles, or use the adapter and 20 lb tanks.
The adapter screws in where the small bottles does, the hose on to that and the other end of the hose onto the larger tank. Very simple.
Back to Top
Brad View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member


Joined: March 29 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 44
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 8:56pm
I've lurked here a bit but feel compelled to jump in now and offer a warning.  Using propane heaters and burners indoors has the potential to be dangerous, even fatal.  Please don't assume it's okay, because dozens of people die every year from making that assumption (in fish houses, cabins, and homes).

As hydrocarbons go, propane is on the "safer" end of the spectrum, but it's still really important to make sure you're using "indoor rated" appliances if you're cooking or heating indoors (especially heating) with propane.   The common Coleman or Century propane grills, for example, are not indoor rated, and they will give off  significant amounts of CO (carbon monoxide) when used.  If you're using them in a large house for a limited amount of time, with a window or two cracked a bit, it's probably not a huge deal, but be aware of the risk potential.  If you can do the cooking outdoors, that's a much better idea.

The propane heating is scarier than cooking, because the heaters use more fuel and give off more CO.  And people have a tendency to turn them on before they go to bed, and then they don't wake up.  There are some relatively safe propane heating units, like the Mr. Heater Portable Buddy and Big Buddy models someone mentioned, and the "vent free" models at Home Depot and similar places, but there are also a ton of propane heaters that are not indoor rated and should not be used indoors.  Don't expect the packaging to say that a unit is not safe for indoor use, except maybe in the very fine print.

Also, as someone else mentioned, a CO monitor (with spare batteries) is an absolute "must have" if you're burning any kind of hydrocarbons indoors.  Well, a few candles wouldn't worry me, but certainly for any kind of heating.  And finally, anytime you burn propane or kerosene indoors, even with the best heaters or cooking elements, crack a window.

Sorry for starting out on a soapbox, but this is a subject that's fairly easy to do correctly, and the consequences of doing it incorrectly can be, well, serious. 

 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 9:01pm
Thanks for the safety reminder Brad!  And welcome aboard. 
 
I look forward to your future contributions.
 
SZ
Back to Top
bruss01 View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: January 12 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 448
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote bruss01 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 9:48pm
Brad,
 
Your warning is well-taken. However, there are a few caveats.
 
First of all, I am not recommending anyone follow my methods.
 
Second, the stove itself contains warnings about CO.
 
Third, CO is not produced by the combustion of propane in a normal oxygen rich atmosphere.
 
Fourth, CO IS PRODUCED by combustion of propane in an oxygen POOR atmosphere.
 
Fifth - Is this why they tell us not to use propane appliances in a confined space?  That once a significant portion of the oxygen in that confined space has been used, continued combustion will produce toxic carbon MONoxide rather than innocuous carbon DIoxide?
 
Sixth, carbon monoxide is a colorless, odorless and tasteless gas.  But is a battery powered carbon monoxide detector ($30) which registers the PPM of carbon monoxide in a digital readout beyond the reach of anyone seriously prepping (serious enough to have propane fuel stockpiled, that is)?
 
It would be unwise for any of us to recommend any unsafe practice.  However, it serves all of us to remember that the heinous warnings about carbon monoxide are typically aimed at people with double-digit IQ's who would try to run the damn thing in an unventillated closet, or a tent.  Or try to run a charcoal grille in their living room.  People who are dirt poor yet who somehow manage to scrape up enough money to afford an attorney who can sue an appliance manufacurer back to the stone age over an issue caused, not by faulty manufacture, but by the operator's own stupidity.
 
Plainly put, most of us are not that f*ck!ng stupid.  Most of us went to high school and remember the basics of hydrocarbon combustion.  Most of us know to take reasonable precautions when available (such as inexpensive battery operated carbon monoxide detectors) or simply opening a window for some fresh air ventilation.
 
Please don't anyone be offended, but if you didn't thoroughly understand the forgoing without having to read it twice or consult a dictionary, then please for the safety of yourself and others NEVER RUN A HYDROCARBON CONSUMING DEVICE INDOORS!!!!  This includes:  candles, sterno, oil lamps, propane appliances, butane appliances, bic lighters, coleman stoves or lanterns.  You are probably also ill served by having natural gas appliances such as water heaters, dryers, and furnaces.
 
Perhaps some of us who grew up in northern climates are better informed on the subject than some who come from warmer climates, because the natural gas utilities take GREAT PAINS to see that no one is killed by using their product (bad for business don't you know) and have HUGE PR INFORMATION campaigns to make sure people understand about using gas appliances.  Many municipalities now have ordinances MANDATING the use of carbon monoxide detectors.  If one goes off and you call the utility at 2AM they have a service person at your door in 15 minutes to investigate the matter.
 
Don't get me wrong... carbon monoxide is a danger, but it is a MANAGEABLE danger for anyone with common sense, as is electricity or gasoline.  Knowing how to manage the risk is your key to safety, not over -cautious panicy warnings from a company trying to avoid a lawsuit.
 
Back to Top
Zanna View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: January 13 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 17
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Zanna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 29 2006 at 11:12pm
I ripped the tags off of the mattresses and pillows, is this unsafe?  "They" tell you not to, you know.
 
LOL
 
Z~
Back to Top
KatDoe67 View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member


Joined: February 02 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 234
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KatDoe67 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 4:57am
My husband says this:
 
"Girls, gas, boom!" 
 
Some updates had to be made before we moved into our current residence and he had ALL the propane appliances removed before we moved in here :-( Now without the gas log stove, in this uninsulated house we are FREEZING our butts off!!!!
 
Where did I pick up writing CO2 instead of CO hmm... I know I copied it :-0 I have such a visual memory instead of an auditory one.
 
I get REALLY frustrated with dummy warnings. It makes it REALLY hard to make sound, logical decisions when SHTF, which it does periodically and repeatedly in my life. I guess I can be thankful for that though...as I seem to be better prepared for a "big one" :-0
 
The sterno says safe for inside and the propane says no, but running the sterno for 45 minutes, instead of the propane for 5 minutes, to boil 2 cups of water, just cannot produce less CO.
 
And the heater says yes, because it turns itself off with a CO monitor that comes with it, but my one burner stove, just HAS to produce MUCH less heat that that heater!
 
It's kind of like MANY things in life. I remember when my boys were babies and the doctors were trying to outlaw baby walkers. The thing was, that I KNEW my baby was safer on his feet, than on the floor being stepped on by his brother and friends :-0 Yeah, I had to be careful to keep the basement door closed but that was easier than keeping a baby from being stepped on by toddlers!
 
Living in fear and following warning and labels literally ALL the time can actually be MORE dangerous in the long run, and OFTEN leads to an unecessarily uncomfortable life. DAMN I wish that gas log stove was still in my kitchen!!
Back to Top
Amethyst View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: March 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 203
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Amethyst Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 7:19am
There are those Mountain House freeze-dried foods, and they have a self-heating bag that only requires water (it can be cold water).  I have a few in my preps, but they're kind of expensive.
Back to Top
sweetpea View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweetpea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 9:02am
Just throwing some ideas in here
 
First ... consider it mandatory to have both a smoke & carbon monoxide alarm in your home, and that they're always working.  IMO I would still crack the window about 1/2 to 1 inch, and have a small fan running towards the window just to keep the air circulating. 
 
I'm assuming you have a south-facing window in your kitchen/dining - hopefully with a window sill.  This presents an opportunity to place dark (painted black) 2-liter soda bottles on the sill to preheat the water, so when the time comes to cook/wash - you're water will be anywhere from lukewarm to hot.  Hmm, I wonder how the green soda bottles work in the sun, then you wouldn't have to worry about painting them?  I'll try that out today and post the results later?
 
Here are several options for keeping things cool w/o refrigeration ...
 
This works for cooler climates, not where I currently live in Phx area.  Is to keep some drinking water, juice, breads, maybe eggs and such in a north window where you don't get sunlight - because glass windows tend to stay slightly cooler. 
 
Before my people (I'm Native Am) had refrigerators (as late as the early 70s), they built and placed screened boxes in openable north windows and kept their foods cooled in them.  By placing a wet gunny sack (burlap) over the box - closed the window and as the water evaporated, it kept the interior cool.  I saw a similar version in the "Roughing It Easy" book by Dian Thomas, which was larger, hung from the tree, and had several shelves.  This can be easily adapted to use in the home by hanging from the ceiling (supported of course) and placing a tub underneath to catch the dripping water.  
 
Another idea from another forum - using evaporation, is an original idea from Africa I believe, was to use two very large porous pots similar to terra cotta.  For indoors, I guess the outer pot does not need to be porous.  They placed about 1 - 2 inches of SAND on the bottom and added enough water to dampen the sand.  Place the smaller pot inside, and fill up the space in between alternating sand and water (just to dampen-not soak), tamp down the sand until about an inch from the top.  Keep in a cool, dark pantry - place in your goods that need to keep cool and use a thick cover, damp not wet,  like heavy canvas or a couple layers of burlap.  Check occasionally and add more water when top starts to dry.  This sounds heavy, so I would fix it where you want it placed or put it on plant rollers.  You can pick up bags of "clean" playground sand at Home Depot or Lowe's or most any home improvement store.  Get a couple of yards of burlap or canvas from the fabric store, some military surplus stores usually carry these as well.
 
Another "pioneer" idea for keeping things cold in a root cellar was in the winter time to cut blocks of ice from a water source and layer these blocks between thick layers of straw.  It was said that it would keep throughout the summer and into early fall.  I guess this also depends on the climate as well as to how cold it will stay, and how long the ice will keep.  This was done in an elevation, semi-desert, about 5800 - 6000 ft abv sea level.  They must have been big chucks of ice!
 
"When an emergency arises, the time for preparation is past."
Back to Top
sweetpea View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweetpea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 5:04pm
Wow, posted after my own post ... well note to self ... overcast cloudy days don't work quite as well as I expected.  Moved the 2-liter green bottles 2X, water heated up to about 98-degrees (not sure what Celsius is) ... will try again on a sunny day with no clouds - green bottle and a black painted bottle.  Laterz
"When an emergency arises, the time for preparation is past."
Back to Top
TNbebo408 View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: December 10 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 295
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TNbebo408 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 5:28pm
Therese, I haved cooked on my stove top with a gas coleman many times, used lanterns in the house. And have used the small one burner in a big rig to keep from freezing to death.

A good rule of thumb is this, for every 10,000 BTU of heat produced, have one square inch of fresh incoming air.

Example a 40,000 BTU heater would require forty inches of air intake. A 36 inch window raised about one inch.

There is no substitute for a GOOD CO meter, except a canary.
Don't blow your kids lunch money for things they may never need.
Back to Top
sweetpea View Drop Down
V.I.P. Member
V.I.P. Member
Avatar

Joined: March 27 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 299
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweetpea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 30 2006 at 5:32pm
... poor canary ... Cry ... guess it's that or BF??
 
 
"When an emergency arises, the time for preparation is past."
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down