Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Covid-19 had us all fooled |
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Tabitha111
Adviser Group Joined: January 11 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 11640 |
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Posted: April 06 2020 at 12:43pm |
****NO Ventilators...High 02 Sat....CHQ+ZPAK+ZINC??**** Covid-19 had us all fooled, but now we might have finally found its secret. April 5, 2020 In the last 3–5 days, a mountain of anecdotal evidence has come out of NYC, Italy, Spain, etc. about COVID-19 and characteristics of patients who get seriously ill. There is no ‘pneumonia’ nor ARDS. The past 48 hours or so have seen a huge revelation: COVID-19 causes prolonged and progressive hypoxia (starving your body of oxygen) by binding to the heme groups in hemoglobin in your red blood cells. Here’s the breakdown of the whole process, including some ELI5-level cliff notes. Much has been simplified just to keep it digestible and layman-friendly. Your red blood cells carry oxygen from your lungs to all your organs and the rest of your body. Red blood cells can do this thanks to hemoglobin, which is a protein consisting of four “hemes”. When the red blood cell gets to the alveoli, or the little sacs in your lungs where all the gas exchange happens, that special little iron ion can flip between FE2+ and FE3+ states with electron exchange and bond to some oxygen, then it goes off on its little merry way to deliver o2 elsewhere. Here’s where COVID-19 comes in. 1) Without the iron ion, hemoglobin can no longer bind to oxygen. 2) That little iron ion, along with millions of its friends released from other hemes, are now floating through your blood freely. — — — — — — — — — — — — - Once your body is now running out of control, with all your oxygen trucks running around without any freight, and tons of this toxic form of iron floating around in your bloodstream, other defenses kick in. Eventually, if the patient’s immune system doesn’t fight off the virus in time before their blood oxygen saturation drops too low, ventilator or no ventilator, organs start shutting down. No fuel, no work. The core point being, treating patients with the iron ions stripped from their hemoglobin (rendering it abnormally nonfunctional) with ventilator intubation is futile, unless you’re just hoping the patient’s immune system will work its magic in time. The root of the illness needs to be addressed. Best case scenario? Treatment regimen early, before symptoms progress too far. The story with Hydroxychloroquine All that hilariously misguided and counterproductive criticism the media piled on chloroquine (purely for political reasons) as a viable treatment will now go down as the biggest Fake News blunder to rule them all. The media actively engaged their activism to fight ‘bad orange man’ at the cost of thousands of lives. Shame on them. How does chloroquine work? Same way as it does for malaria. No longer can the media and armchair pseudo-physicians sit in their little ivory towers, proclaiming “DUR so stoopid, malaria is bacteria, COVID-19 is virus, anti-bacteria drug no work on virus!”. Anyway, enough of the rant. What’s the end result here? Ideally, some form of treatment needs to happen to: Inhibit viral growth and replication. Therapies used for anyone with abnormal hemoglobin or malfunctioning red blood cells. Blood transfusions. Now that we know more about how this virus works and affects our bodies, a whole range of options should open up. Don’t trust China. China is an ASSHOLE. (disclaimer: not talking about the people, just talking about the regime). They covered this up and have caused all kinds of death and carnage, both literal and economic. The ripples of this pandemic will be felt for decades. Fini. http://archive.is/ONUmi#selection-273.0-728.0 |
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'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Political interjections aside (the treatment seems to work outside America too) This is a great working hypothesis. Chloroquine and hydroxychloroquine + azithromycin + Zinc looks increasingly like the way to go. Chloroquine is still quite toxic, but letting the doc 'experiment' on you looks promising. "Don't ventilate me unless I die if you don't but put me on oxygen." Seems to be also promising. During pregnancy, mums are asked to write a 'birth plan' of how they want their treatment to go. Why not write out a treatment plan and should you fall ill, have this travel with you? That is what I'm going to do. I'm going to back this up legally too. Brilliant! Brilliant! Thank you!!! |
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Hazelpad
Adviser Group Joined: September 09 2014 Status: Offline Points: 6910 |
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They are already venting with very low pressure oxygen as high pressure is causing increased inflammation. It is meaning a long time on ventilators but that is in one of the new treatment pathways. Really slow, small pressure. Need to research a bit more about what you have put but didnt just want to read and run as appreciate effort you have put into post. Thanks for giving an opinion to look into. Hz x |
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Sheep Lady
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 06 2020 Status: Offline Points: 3215 |
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Really awesome , awesome post. First thought that came to mind was hyperbaric chamber. Really glad to see it was listed in the treatment regimen. Going to refer (people) to this post often. Thank you. |
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Sheep Lady
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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The Brits have started using CPAPs to replace ventilators: This would provide oxygen in a much less physiologically damaging manner! |
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CRS, DrPH
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Tabitha111
Adviser Group Joined: January 11 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 11640 |
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MORE from the Field- This makes sense to me and would explain why their ferritin levels are so flipping elevated! Has anyone else heard this? 🤯 blew my mind! A friend sent this to me and it makes SO MUCH SENSE!! This is an analysis done on a computer to study the virus. A lengthy read but it is what we are seeing in these patients. "Might not even be a respiratory illness after all and that's just a byproduct of the wreckage it makes in blood haemoglobin (thus making ARDS a symptom not a cause). I wish this would get more traction because if this computational analysis is correct, this could completely change the way we approach COVID, globally. I will copy some summaries that explain this paper in layman's terms: - Using computational analysis (modeling the behavior of a molecule in a computer), they've worked out the probable mechanism by which SARS-nCov-2 wreaks havoc on patients, as well as why chloroquine and favipiravir seem to work. - Inside our red blood cells, there is a molecule called hemoglobin, which contains heme groups. Each heme group is a molecular "ring" (called a porphyrin) that can hold an iron (Fe) ion inside. Having an iron ion inside is what allows this heme to carry O2 (and CO2) in our blood. This is how our bodies move O2 to our tissues and remove CO2 waste products. - The paper modeled these and found that the proteins produced when COVID replicates "collaborate" to knock iron ions out of heme groups (HBB) and replace them with one of the proteins. This makes the red blood cell unable to transport O2 and CO2! - If the computer modeling is right, it shows that the virus hijacks our [red] blood [cells] and makes it unable to carry O2 to a patient's tissues/organs, and likewise unable to carry CO2 out of them. This would lead to organ and tissue death, roughly in the same way as if a patient were being suffocated. Even when a patient can breath (fill lungs with air), the oxygen isn't getting to the cells in their body. - The inflammation in the lungs results from the lungs not being able to perform the oxygen/CO2 exchange, and would therefore appear to be a SECONDARY result of the hijacking of the blood. The lungs not working is a result of lack of O2 in blood, not the cause of it. Hence the "ground glass opacities". - The paper models the behavior of chloroquine and faviparavir as well, which appear to bind to the non-structural viral proteins that hijack the heme groups, thus inhibiting them from knocking out the iron and wrecking the O2-carrying ability of the red blood cells. - This also explains the observation made by various ER docs (incl this one in New Orleans) that patients tend to have elevated ferritin: ferritin is used to store excess iron. If a lot of iron is knocked out of heme groups and floating around, the body produces more ferritin If true, this may mean a few things: 1. Starting drug treatment while symptoms are mild keeps virus from hijacking too much blood, enabling a still-healthy body to mount an immune response. Explains why early drug treatment (first week of symptoms) is often successful. 2. Drug treatment and intubation once patient is critical will rarely work because tissues/organs are already damaged, blood can't carry O2, and the body is too weak to produce new red blood cells able to carry Fe (and thus oxygen/CO2) even if drugs inhibit more hijacking. 3. Thus: start severe patients on drug treatment upon hospital intake to suppress further hijacking of blood by the virus, then give them a blood transfusion of new red blood cells immediately that are unhijacked. If all this is true, we would see rapid patient improvement. --- The problem is we have not yet had studies testing whether patients will respond well to blood transfusions from people who have not had COVID-19. Right now medical attention is focused on blood transfusions from those who have beat COVID and have antibodies. This needs to be looked at This research ties in to the fact that weight/age/high blood pressure are such risk factor and why certain blood types are less afflicted than other NonAfrican malaria risk zones have a population with genetic thalassemia, which would explain the discrepancies in the population affected by CV, this is noted in Italy:" |
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'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius |
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Tabitha111
Adviser Group Joined: January 11 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 11640 |
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Nurses on the frontline reporting that the blood they draw from Covid pts. is the darkest they have ever seen. |
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'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius |
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Flubergasted
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 04 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2130 |
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This might also explain why more men than women are dying. Hormonal differences mean men and women have different healthy levels of hemoglobin, etc. This really does make a lot of sense, and explains so much. Edited to add a link. Hemoglobin level is a key indicator of which patients will have serious complications according to Artificial Intelligence program. |
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socalmom
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 29 2020 Location: S. California Status: Offline Points: 900 |
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So what does this mean for people like myself that have iron deficiency anemia severe enough to require iron via IV every year? (By the way my infusions were cancelled this year due to Covid-19 and I only received one of five so I'm still really anemic. I'm taking iron tablets even though I have celiac disease and I don't absorb it well orally, but I'm still taking it anyway hoping that something is better than nothing). Is it better if I start off with low hemoglobin (as I am right now)? Or would that mean that I will just crash even faster because I'm already not at a healthy hemoglobin level (with few to spare)? My husband has the opposite problem. He has hemoglobin higher than normal. He has to donate blood on a regular basis because of it. What would this mean for a patient like him? Is he better off because he already has extra hemoglobin which would hopefully keep circulating oxygen for him? Or is he worse off because he already has high hemoglobin? |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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The article is worded in such a way that I can't be sure; but it looks as if you are at decreased risk and your husband at increased. However, the wording of both articles is sufficiently vague that I could have that backwards. Either way, Sorry! Assuming I did read it right, it backs up the theory Tabatha111 posted about this being primarily a blood disease, where the excess iron in the blood can raise the risk of organ failure. |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Flubergasted
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 04 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2130 |
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The way I am reading it, could be bad for both of you. In your situation, it would make me feel pretty confident at the beginning of an infection to press my doctor for the trifecta, hydroxychloroqine + zpak + zinc. |
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Tabitha111
Adviser Group Joined: January 11 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 11640 |
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-"how we have been fooled by the corona virus and now we have found it's secret". This is the original research from which that laymans report is based on. The virus is very different. It is attacking the hemoglobin, binding to the porphyrin, breaking the iron ion out, so oxygen can not be carried. It explains why men, older people have more of abnormal hemoglobin, and why Chloroquine interferes with the virus. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s... |
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'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius |
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Flubergasted
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 04 2020 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 2130 |
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Tabitha, I can't make your link work. |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwiXiqHRu9noAhWSl3IEHd8mBbYQFjAEegQIBRAB&url=https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pstorage-chemrxiv-899408398289/22129965/covid19202000328EN1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3A49uE8pnMlRgZRsWw6IL-&fbclid=IwAR05Rj3rpi_sn0-8G4ATdiwKgFPKJXCbtA7D-KaIdjXn_dGcj-BO8pfkSPQhttps://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=2ahUKEwiXiqHRu9noAhWSl3IEHd8mBbYQFjAEegQIBRAB&url=https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pstorage-chemrxiv-899408398289/22129965/covid19202000328EN1.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3A49uE8pnMlRgZRsWw6IL-&fbclid=IwAR05Rj3rpi_sn0-8G4ATdiwKgFPKJXCbtA7D-KaIdjXn_dGcj-BO8pfkSPQ These are it in entirety - I don't know if that helps |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
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Hazelpad
Adviser Group Joined: September 09 2014 Status: Offline Points: 6910 |
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COVID-19: Attacks the 1-Beta Chain of Hemoglobin and Captures the Porphyrin to Inhibit Human Heme Metabolism Warning: this paper is ahead of print and has not been peer reviewed, data is still invalidated, and any vested interests of authors in companies, equipment, reagents, or software used has not been verified. This is a basic disclaimer on ahead of print science articles. First let me apologise we spell Hemoglobin as haemoglobin so I may cross over in post from one version to another). In my opinion it is not so black and white, not an either or, not a one size fits all. This is a virus and like all viruses wont follow a definitive pathway in all people. The resulting pathology or effects of the virus, the area of the body it attacks will vary widely with each person, based on route of exposure, patient genetics and haplotype, etc. Look at measles some go blind, some get respiratory failure, some get anaemia, some get encephalitis. Same with any virus, one virus requires tailored treatment to its numerous manifestations. There is not one common pathway to death that can be simply broken, it is a disease with multiple complex levels. To put this virus in a box saying there is " NO ARS " and not to give traditional respiratory support because it is attacking haemoglobin is too big a leap. A lot of people do get classic ARS with Covid19, blood biochemistry is classic, and many respond to the traditional protocol for this. Approx 30 to 50% leave ICU alive after this protocol. Especially younger patients. Would you on one unpublished paper want those people not to undergo classic ARS treatment, of course not. Just as you wouldn't want people to be harmed by invasive treatment that makes things worse. So this is not black and white. Yes it may attack Hemoglobin, a lot of viruses and bacteria do, but in what proportion of patients. Do you need to have a specific genotype of receptor. How prevalent is this manifestation. Another example many papers begining to show Covid 19 can cause death by encephalitis , patients presenting with strokes, other papers reporting patients who have breathing physically suppressed directly by the virus binding to receptors in the CNS. What proportion of patients die by the CNS pathway. So what I am trying to emphasise is that with viruses there is usually not one pathway that leads to death. It's not a one treatment fits all, there is no magic bullet, there can only be tailored treatments for the pathway that's presenting. I am excited by this post and the ideas presented here, but also cautious because the study is unusually being published without peer review ( this is where other experts in the same field check your data, methods, vested interests, and experimental bias). Binding in a mathematical model is good but we need to know if this is possible under physiological conditions such as ph etc. For example using a yeast 2 hybrid system every molecule predicts bind to actin which it clearly doesn't in physiological terms. So this study needs more work. Please dont feel I am dismissing any of this post, and I know it has been an exciting and hot topic right across the internet and certainly deserves all the investigations. YouTube is full of the theories the paper has put forward and it's being discussed in more detail than I can. It is buzzing out there on many sites. It is a study that is splitting people into 2 camps and that's not what science should be. Everyone wants a magic bullet and thus theory is good but it has grown wings and internet has gone into hyper monkeys on this issue. If the paper passes peer review and gets published then it is a leap forward for some patiets and we need that. It may also help with the mystery of why MERS is so lethal despite every attempt to support breathing. We need as much info as possible. I guess I just want a bit more caution. There are people reading this that may turn down ARS treatment protocol based on a post like this , so I am saying knowledge comes with responsibility, and this study is still to be verified. The paper authors make this very clear stating it is an ahead of print, but at no point do I see this mentioned in this post. It is early days to start saying there is no ARS and doctors are treating everyone wrong. Medcram mention it a few times recently and that is an excellent balanced source input from experts in respiratory ICU consultants. He discusses what you would see if patients present with inhibited heme metabolism in an ICU, compare it to what he is seeing in his ICU and across US. Arguments by some researchers against: Basically when oxygen is breathed in it diffuses into and dissolves in the blood plasma this is known as PaO2. From plasma it then moves on and enters the red blood cell and binds to Hemoglobin. Paper says covid19 prevents this happening and Oxygen cant bind and CO2 cant be released. Where then does all the oxygen go. Why then no increase in the stage before this, why is paO2 not huge if oxygen cant move on. If it cant reach the bus ( haemoglobin) why does it not gather at the bus stop ( dissolved in plasma measured by pa02) This measurement in Covid 19 patients is low so no oxygen to get to Hemoglobin. Also if covid 19 stops CO2 being released from Hemoglobin why is there not lactic acid build up in all muscles. Lactic acid measurements are low. In ICU Hemoglobin disorders such as suggested usually give high lactic acid, (think the burn when exercise caused by excessive CO2 in muscles) There is walled lung lining inflamation which paper says is due to vent and virus but in Covid 19 they are detecting inflammatory cytokines associated with viral infection and damage (Th1 and certain NK and antiviral cytokine profiles driving the inflammation), not cytokines related to physical damage inflammation ( very different profile). So seems immune system has a targeted immunological driven cytokine damage in Covid19 lung rather than the general non specific inflammatory response as suggested in the paper. Modelling does not take in binding abilities under different temperatures, pH etc. Binding sites in physiological systems differ under different conditions, genotypes, disease states. Arguments for. Medcram in particular say they are not seeing heme damaged oxygen deprivation but are seeing classic acute ARS. They ADMIT maybe they arent seeing enough to detect the subset if patients that may be affect by hemoglobin problems. It may be a smaller subset than classic ARS. Italy have seen a lot more. There have been reports of patients dying in pain like burning which may indicate lactic acid. Watch "Coronavirus Pandemic Update 52: Ivermectin Treatment; Does COVID-19 Attack Hemoglobin?" on YouTube Hz x |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Thank you HP! I have been clicking 'Thank Hazelpad' for several of your posts. But this one deserves double. Presenting the evidence for both and taking the time to explain to us laymen that it is not either/or was wonderfully clear; both valuable and valued. Thank you! |
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