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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Empathy meter on empty

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    Posted: September 12 2021 at 9:21am

The majority of masked people out in public are vaccinated because they show a collective respect for others. They are aware that they can still catch and transmit the virus. Accepting that the vaccine is not perfect,but it affords them a lesser illness and better survival.It’s the “we” part of society,not the “me” They show respect to the Dr’s and nurses that have put their own health and safety on the back burner to save lives,doing their part not to break the back of the healthcare system.Other than medical reasons or age restrictions that bars you from vaccine,there is no good enough reason not to be vaccinated. We hear all the explanations why, I’m young,healthy,it’s my choice,don’t trust science,but once they are sick they trust the science to save them,then filling up the beds,reducing care for all the other medical issues. I have like many take every precaution to protect myself and others around me and have reached a point of intolerance of the “me” crowd. You want to live on the edge,risk yourself and family go right ahead but don’t expect anything more than I told you so from me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 12 2021 at 3:09pm

I don't have any sympathy for any unvaccinated person if they get sick,

I do have sympathy for the road traffic accident victim,or the young pregnant women who need urgent medical treatment but can't get it because some very selfish person who refused to get vaccinated takes up valuable hospital beds .....

Just hope their god forgives their selfishness...........

Prevention is better than Cure !!!!!!!!

Take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 10:50am

https://www.galvnews.com/opinion/editorials/free/article_218a58d6-9417-5731-ae60-c1010b819393.html


People have a right to reject vaccination against COVID-19; no question.

The question is how much responsibility does society have to prioritize health care for people who’ve made that risky personal decision.

That question will become more and more relevant if more and more people become seriously ill and demand more and more of limited health services.


It also highlights a strange paradox.

Among the main things driving the militant anti-vax bloc is a fear and loathing of the big evils — big government, big pharma, big tech, big this, big that, big the other thing — all of which, the theory argues, act in concert to beguile, befuddle and bamboozle the gullible into being vaccinated.

The argument is people who’ve been vaccinated are just too lazy to find, too blind to see or too stupid to comprehend the awful truth right there on YouTube.

If people want to believe that, fine. But why do those same people show up at the hospital — a veritable temple to the big evils — demanding treatment when they begin suffering badly from COVID infection?

Why not stay home, out of big medicine’s clutches, and treat the infection with CBD oil or quartz crystals?

Personal rights are among the cornerstones of society, but they’re not unlimited. Nor do they supersede everything else.

One person’s rights end where they impede the rights of others.

That’s not a radical notion. It’s not even sophisticated. It’s trite. It’s middle-school civics.

We’re headed toward that collision of rights. The signs appeared when Gov. Greg Abbott asked Texas hospitals to postpone some elective medical procedures to free up resources to accommodate an increasing number of people seriously ill with COVID.

The inescapable fact is COVID hospitalization rates are increasing because of unvaccinated people. Almost 100 percent of people needing hospital care for COVID infection are unvaccinated.

The University of Texas Medical Branch, the main health care provider in the county, said it would postpone “non-urgent elective cases that require an inpatient bed post-operation.”


Other hospital systems will make the same decisions if the numbers of cases requiring hospitalization keep climbing.

This small accommodation might be appropriate, but it’s reasonable to ask where is the limit.

People who had never contracted COVID-19 died during the worst parts of the pandemic because many medical procedures were forbidden by government order to make room in hospitals for victims of the virus. They died of cancer, kidney failure and other things that were killing people long before anyone ever heard of COVID-19.

That was one thing back then. It’s quite another now.

If things get worse, as some predict they will, how much can health care consumers be expected to sacrifice to accommodate people who’ve made a personal decision to reject vaccination?

Is chronic pain enough? That was the sacrifice required of people needing hip and knee replacement surgery last year. Is it enough to stay home wondering whether malignant tumors are getting bigger and spreading? People had to do that last year. Will some be required to stay home and die, as some were in 2020?

Why should the willfully unvaccinated get spots at the front of the line, priority on the beds and the top-shelf care at the expense of people who’ve done their bit to counter the virus?

No doubt some people are genuinely afraid of vaccines because of cultural mistrust passed down like family heirlooms or thanks to the dense fog of misinformation, disinformation and non-information ginned up by a tireless cabal of conspiracy mongers.

We urge those willing to hear and heed reason to find somebody they trust — a personal physician, a pastor, a friend or relative — and get the facts about the relative risks in being unvaccinated and being vaccinated.

They might also read information from the University of Texas Medical Branch, Johns Hopkins University and the Mayo Clinic, to name a few among a whole cosmos of credible sources.

To the loud and militant, immune to reason and fact and bent on propagating fallacy, by all means, roll the dice. It’s your life.

But know you’re not helping anyone or thing. You’re providing hosts to grow new strains of COVID and probably abetting organized efforts to undermine our health and national security by sowing seeds of hokum grown at foreign troll farms.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 2:00pm

Perhaps they should extend that thinking to exclude others from medical care? Perhaps they should also exclude people who were driving too fast when they crashed, afterall it's their own stupid fault that they crashed and now need medical care, so let them sort themselves out at home with paracetamol and band aids. 

Let's also exclude the obese. They are  the architects of their own condition from years of eating rubbish and not taking care of their health, so they're out. How about all those smokers? Lung cancer? Well they obviously wanted it or they wouldn't have smoked. Also all those heavy drinkers now suffering from kidney and liver failure. No sympathy there. And kids who fall out of trees and break their arms? No. Let's not treat them either because they caused their own injuries by being reckless. 

Where does it end? Well, maybe the only people we can treat in hospitals are women giving birth.........oh no, hang on, they wanted to get pregnant, it was their choice.........so no, let them squat behind a bush and deal with it themselves.



"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 3:15pm

There is no vaccine for fat people,if there was I guess millions would sign up for it,

There's no vaccine for the unexpected accident,

However there are vaccine's for many many diseases ,which millions take,

There is a safe effective vaccine for Covid19,

Millions have taken it millions more will have it today,

 KM your constant carping on about this vaccine  are facile ,they have no substance , non that can/ may be proven for many years,

 Covid19 is the real and present danger to millions,

Going forward if NZ wants to open you will all have to vaccinated,

Like it or lump it,thats what will happen....

And eventually you will either get  Covid or get the vaccine,I'm guessing the Smart lady you are you will get vaccinated,

Take care all 😷😉💉




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 3:35pm



As In my post preventable hospital costs,three months totaling 456,000 unvaccinated cases.  I don’t think anyone ever has seen our hospital system being inundated so suddenly by lung cancer patients,drunks with failing livers,drunk driver, pregnant women,children with broken limbs,to the point where care has to be rationed.Not only do I agree with the rationed care, hospitals need to set aside a portion of beds for regular service,it’s only fair.


“An individual’s freedom to refuse 

the vaccine is nothing compared to

Humanity’s freedom to live without

The threat of an eternal plague”

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 5:11pm

According to the latest research, we will all get Covid, regardless of whether we are vaccinated or not. And that will include you and me. My friend's father died of Covid last night. A man in his 70's, by all accounts fit and healthy, and he was fully vaccinated. And today he's dead. It's left a family completely devastated. 

Unfortunately we will all come into contact with it, and since it is proven that the vaccines don't stop you for getting it, we will all get it. How we fare once infected is anyone's guess. It's a terrible disease to be sure and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but for me, in my age group and state of health, research from Israel is showing I would be better off in the long term to rely on natural immunity, and that's what I intend to do. If I were in a different category, then perhaps I would think differently, but I'm not so I am following the science, but I'm still nervous about the prospect of getting Covid, as indeed any right thinking person would be regardless of their vaccination status. 

I think half the problem of the vaccines, exacebated by governments trying to pacify the masses with platitudes, is that people who've received them like many of my elderly relatives, now think that they are invincible - and the science is showing us that they are not. As Dutch Josh keeps saying, the vaccines are not a standalone defense from Covid. Research shows that if you are over 65, it's definitely in your interests to have the shots, in that age category they significantly reduce your chance of severe disease and death, but they don't make you immune to the disease. As my friend's father illustrates, you can be double jabbed and still die after 2 horrific weeks in a hospital. 

One of the real own goals governments have scored in this pandemic is to try and induce fear in their populations whilst at the same time holding up vaccines as the saviour of us all. Now that the real time science is coming in, they can't really back track without admitting that they made up a lot of it initially to increase the vaccine uptake. In a better world, they would have been more moderate, more honest and now we would be in a situation where the elderly and the vulnerable were vaccinated and every one else was wearing masks, staying home when unwell, being mindful of their social distancing, washing their hands more often, and generally trying not to spread their germs around. Instead we are faced with vaccinated people, through no fault of their own, resuming normal life and silently spreading the disease as they go. 

I don't have a problem with people being vaccinated at all, but I do have a problem with the vaccinated preaching to the unvaccinated using an old and now out of date narrative that the vaccines will stop the pandemic and that the unvaccinated are the problem. It's nonsense and is not supported by the science.

Pixie, it's a no win situation whichever side you find yourself on. But one thing is clear, we will all get it in the near future. Have a look at the link below. It's to Dr John Campbell a very pro vaccine doctor in the UK who does daily updates. In this video he's presenting the evidence that we will all get it and he discusses whether it's better to get it before or after a 3rd booster shot.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUoWSfN3xo8&t=380s

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 5:18pm

Pixie you are right in saying there is no vaccine for car accidents and obesity and the like. There isn't. But there also isn't an approved vaccine for Covid. The only ones on the market today are there under Emergency Authorization. The recent announcement that the FDA had approved the Pfizer jab was misleading. On closer inspection it turns out that the currently available Pfizer jab that is being given out everywhere is still only under Emergency Authorization. The one that has been approved is a Covid jab called Comirnaty which will be produced and available in 2023. So unless the vial from which your covid vaccination is taken is labelled Comirnaty, then it is not approved. 

At the moment all vaccines are still in their experimental stage and there is no long term safety data available for them, and without that data, they cannot be approved. No matter how many millions of shots are given, time is still a constant, and there is no way of actually knowing how safe they are long term until that time has passed and the data is examined. So to say that non vaccinated people don't deserve treatment because they refused a vaccine in it's experimental stage is ridiculous.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 5:34pm

I wish you would post a link with your information



https://www.wane.com/community/health/coronavirus/comirnaty-whats-the-story-behind-the-new-pfizer-vaccine-name/


NEXSTAR) – Pfizer received full FDA approval for its vaccine and all of a sudden there’s a new vaccine name being thrown around: Comirnaty.

Comirnaty, who? It’s the same exact mRNA vaccine Pfizer has producing through the emergency use authorization, but now it’s being marketed under the new name. Comirnaty is administered in two doses, three weeks apart, just like Pfizer doses have been all along.

The vaccine name is pronounced koe-mir’-na-tee. It doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, but neither did “Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine,” which is what it was technically called before.

The name was developed by Brand Institute in conjunction with BioNTech and Pfizer, according to Fierce Pharma.

“The name is coined from COVID-19 immunity, and then embeds the mRNA in the middle, which is the platform technology, and as a whole the name is meant to evoke the word community,” Scott Piergrossi, Brand Institute president of operations and communications, told the site. 


Pfizer’s vaccine isn’t the only one with an alter ego. Moderna’s is branded as Spikevax in Europe. The one-shot Johnson & Johnson shot is technically called the Janssen COVID-19 vaccine after the American company’s Belgian subsidiary Janssen Pharmaceuticals.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 14 2021 at 5:48pm

New Zealand has done the right thing,lockdowns,aggressive contact tracing,quarantine,masking,and vaccination program. It shows in the numbers. 3966 cases and 27 deaths for the whole duration of the pandemic.

The US doesn’t have the balls to do the right thing so it has spun out of control. If you experienced huge daily cases and deaths there I  believe you would understand the necessity of vaccines as the only hope to get this under control.

Today in the US we have  114,591 new cases,1,791 deaths.

1.25 deaths per minute 79.58 cases per minute,think on that for a moment. Based on that your total cases we achieve in 50 minutes,your deaths in 22 minutes.

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Originally posted by Pixie Pixie wrote:

The majority of masked people out in public are vaccinated because they show a collective respect for others. They are aware that they can still catch and transmit the virus. Accepting that the vaccine is not perfect,but it affords them a lesser illness and better survival.It’s the “we” part of society,not the “me” They show respect to the Dr’s and nurses that have put their own health and safety on the back burner to save lives,doing their part not to break the back of the healthcare system.Other than medical reasons or age restrictions that bars you from vaccine,there is no good enough reason not to be vaccinated. We hear all the explanations why, I’m young,healthy,it’s my choice,don’t trust science,but once they are sick they trust the science to save them,then filling up the beds,reducing care for all the other medical issues. I have like many take every precaution to protect myself and others around me and have reached a point of intolerance of the “me” crowd. You want to live on the edge,risk yourself and family go right ahead but don’t expect anything more than I told you so from me.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2021 at 2:23am

 

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 15 2021 at 2:28am

Originally posted by Pixie Pixie wrote:

I wish you would post a link with your information



https://www.wane.com/community/health/coronavirus/comirnaty-whats-the-story-behind-the-new-pfizer-vaccine-name/


NEXSTAR) – Pfizer received full FDA approval for its vaccine and all of a sudden there’s a new vaccine name being thrown around: Comirnaty.

Comirnaty, who? It’s the same exact mRNA vaccine Pfizer has producing through the emergency use authorization, but now it’s being marketed under the new name. Comirnaty is administered in two doses, three weeks apart, just like Pfizer doses have been all along.

The vaccine name is pronounced koe-mir’-na-tee. It doesn’t exactly roll off the tongue, but neither did “Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine,” which is what it was technically called before.

The name was developed by Brand Institute in conjunction with BioNTech and Pfizer, according to Fierce Pharma.

“The name is coined from COVID-19 immunity, and then embeds the mRNA in the middle, which is the platform technology, and as a whole the name is meant to evoke the word community,” Scott Piergrossi, Brand Institute president of operations and communications, told the site. 


Pfizer’s vaccine isn’t the only one with an alter ego. Moderna’s is branded as Spikevax in Europe. The one-shot Johnson & Johnson shot is technically called the Janssen COVID-19 vaccine after the American company’s Belgian subsidiary Janssen Pharmaceuticals.

Sorry, I can't post the article about the Pfizer approval as it was about 3 weeks ago and I read so many articles that I don't think I can find it. But if I stumble across it I will post it. The upshot of the whole approval thing is that although the two vaccines appear to be the same, if the one you are given is from a vial labelled Pfizer, it's only covered by experimental emergency authority and if it's labelled Comirnaty, then it's FDA approved. But as I said that won't be available until 2023. The question is why the two different authorizations? And the answer appears to be down to the finer points of ingredients and legal liability. Pfizer were also given 2 weeks to fully disclose the ingredients in their jabs, ,and that two weeks is just about up. Up until they do, no one actually knows what's in them. That will be a very interesting disclosure. It will be interesting to see if Pfizer will disclose the ingredients to the Pfizer jab or to the Comirnaty one.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2021 at 12:45pm

These links and excerpts show it is the same vaccine,same formula


https://www.nebraskamed.com/COVID/you-asked-we-answered-are-pfizers-comirnaty-and-biontech-covid-19-vaccines-the-same-or-different


Question:

I've heard that the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) said Pfizer's Comirnaty and BioNTech formulas are distinctly different in their vaccine approval letter. Is that true?

Answer from infectious diseases pharmacist Bryan Alexander, PharmD:

No. In terms of what is contained inside the vial of each they are identical. Pfizer and BioNTech simply formally "branded" or named their vaccine Comirnaty. 

BioNTech is the German biotechnology company that partnered with Pfizer in bringing this COVID-19 vaccine to market. 

"Pfizer Comirnaty" and "Pfizer BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine" are biologically and chemically the same thing.

The confusion stems from this section of the FDA's Comirnaty Vaccine Information for Recipients and Caregiverssheet: 

"[1] The licensed vaccine has the same formulation as the EUA-authorized vaccine and the products can be used interchangeably to provide the vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns. The products are legally distinct with certain differences that do not impact safety or effectiveness."

The FDA desires to have a single, combined Vaccine Information Sheet. A single sheet keeps things simple for the people administering and receiving the vaccines. Since the branded and unbranded vials of vaccines are chemically identical, despite being legally distinct, this information must be included.

The FDA's approval letter outlines rules Pfizer and BioNTech must follow to maintain full approval for people ages 16 and older. It also explains how the companies can earn full FDA approval for people 16 and under. 

These rules include completing a series of studies focusing on people under age 16 to obtain full approval in this population. These studies are already underway. The companies must also maintain post-approval studies for those over 16 to monitor the vaccine's safety and efficacy. 

These studies are a standard part of the post-approval process that most drugs must go through to maintain full FDA approval. This list of required studies does not mean the vaccine is not fully approved. 

Why is the name just showing up now?

Medications often have a scientific name or number throughout the research and development process and are given a brand name upon FDA approval.

In a joint media statement released by Pfizer and BioNTech on Dec. 21, 2020, the companies explained, "The vaccine will be marketed in the EU under the brand name COMIRNATY, which represents a combination of the terms COVID-19, mRNA, community and immunity, to highlight the first authorization of a messenger RNA (mRNA) vaccine…"

Pfizer and BioNTech received permission to market the vaccine as Comirnaty in the United States within the FDA's recent approval. The FDA's approval letter states, "You may label your product with the proprietary name, Comirnaty, and market it in 2.0 mL glass vials, in packages of 25 and 195 vials."

Comirnaty, also commonly referred to as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine, received final FDA approval for people age 16 and older on Aug. 23. 


https://www.13newsnow.com/article/news/health/coronavirus/vaccine/comirnaty-pfizer-covid-19-vaccine-are-the-same/536-e21d13c2-3364-4d19-b973-cb1408b6d50f


According to the FDA, Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use (EUA) in the United States. It will continue to be administered as a series of two doses, three weeks apart, for the prevention of COVID-19 disease in individuals 16 years of age and older.


A Pfizer spokesperson also told VERIFY by email that Comirnaty and the EUA Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccine have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series, according to FDA labeling. 

“In terms of its ingredients and how it is made, the FDA-approved vaccine for those 16 years and older is no different from the vaccine that has been administered, to date, to millions around the world under the EUA,” said Pfizer.


https://www.fda.gov/vaccines-blood-biologics/qa-comirnaty-covid-19-vaccine-mrna


How is Comirnaty (COVID-19 VACCINE, mRNA) related to the PFIZER-BIONTECH COVID-19 VACCINE?

The FDA-approved Pfizer-BioNTech product Comirnaty (COVID-19 Vaccine, mRNA) and the FDA-authorized Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine under EUA have the same formulation and can be used interchangeably to provide the COVID-19 vaccination series without presenting any safety or effectiveness concerns.  Therefore, providers can use doses distributed under EUA to administer the vaccination series as if the doses were the licensed vaccine. For purposes of administration, doses distributed under the EUA are interchangeable with the licensed doses.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2021 at 12:59pm

Yes that's the irony of it. But in legal circles it's believed that although they have the same supposed formulation, only the Comirnaty is FDA approved and the Pfizer is still under emergency use only. Whilst Pfizer are stating that they can be used interchangeably, it is suspected that in a court of law there would be a distinction. The big question is why are they releasing it under 2 names, with the approved one only becoming available in 2023. It's an ongoing discussion but if you were to pursue something to the letter of the law, and not the spirit of the law, then trying to sue for injury or misleading information of the pfizer jab might well fail whereas the the comirnaty would be more likely to succeed - even though they are stated to be the same thing. It's madness!

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 16 2021 at 9:54pm

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

According to the latest research, we will all get Covid, regardless of whether we are vaccinated or not. And that will  It's a terrible disease to be sure and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but for me, in my age group and state of health, research from Israel is showing I would be better off in the long term to rely on natural immunity, and that's what I intend to do. 

This is not true, KiwiMum.  We only get COVID-19 if we are exposed to the pathogen....it is not some sort of vapor floating around. 

Also, there is no such thing as "natural immunity."  All immunity is acquired by either drinking mother's milk and sharing mother's secretory A antibodies, or being exposed to the antigen and developing an immune response.  

Humans have a variety of responses to pathogens, so some get sicker than others, but this is not immunity.  Rather, it is a difference in how robust our own immune systems are. 

Since this is a novel, spillover pathogen (from bats, pangolins or other creature), we are all tasty morsels.  This pandemic will not end for a long time, since so many resist vaccination and masking.  

Eventually, it will circulate in society and devolve into a slightly less lethal pathogen, but it will take years.  The only hope we have is vaccination. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 17 2021 at 1:05pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

According to the latest research, we will all get Covid, regardless of whether we are vaccinated or not. And that will  It's a terrible disease to be sure and I wouldn't wish it on anyone, but for me, in my age group and state of health, research from Israel is showing I would be better off in the long term to rely on natural immunity, and that's what I intend to do. 

This is not true, KiwiMum.  We only get COVID-19 if we are exposed to the pathogen....it is not some sort of vapor floating around. 

Also, there is no such thing as "natural immunity."  All immunity is acquired by either drinking mother's milk and sharing mother's secretory A antibodies, or being exposed to the antigen and developing an immune response.  

Humans have a variety of responses to pathogens, so some get sicker than others, but this is not immunity.  Rather, it is a difference in how robust our own immune systems are. 

Since this is a novel, spillover pathogen (from bats, pangolins or other creature), we are all tasty morsels.  This pandemic will not end for a long time, since so many resist vaccination and masking.  

Eventually, it will circulate in society and devolve into a slightly less lethal pathogen, but it will take years.  The only hope we have is vaccination. 

Well certainly the British advice is that the disease is now endemic and therefore everyone will eventually be exposed to it. Of course whether they go on to develop symptoms is entirely another matter, 4 of my cousins had it and hardly noticed it, and recovered from it just fine so presumably they have developed a strong immune response to it. From reports I've had from relatives in the UK, it's everywhere and Dr John Campbell has stated that he expects to come into contact with it sooner rather than later. Apparently, very few people are masking up even in close contact situations. My cousin went to the theatre in London a week ago, and in a sell out performance of 2000 people she was the only person wearing a mask!

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Usk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 10:22am

The bottom line message here is that we are all going to get it vaccine or not. We need to focus on better treatment options. My cousin who was on deaths door recently after 2 weeks in the hospital. He was vaccinated in February.  His wife who is an ER doc insisted  he be given plasma therapy Before they put him on a ventilator. They did and within 2 days his fever broke and he recovered fullyin 5 days!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 11:28am

Thought I might tell you something about covid that I learned while here in the hospital. My doctors tell me that I need to get back to therapy.  More breathing  treatments for me, yay !!.  I think that I lost at least 10 pounds in the last 3 days here.   I found out that two people died from covid last night.  That's 34 in the last 3 weeks.  I just cried when I heard about it.  You must have empathy for the suffering.  I don't care if they are unvaccinated.   They are people. They have families and friends who are shell shocked.  Enough bullshit about not caring about the dying or the dead.  Unless you are here in the isolation ward, or have been, you don't have a right to bitch about the dying and the dead.  It's an agonizing painful death to watch.  I have seen enough death in the past year and a half.     I don't like to post from the ward.  It's a real pain in the ass. But, this is stupid.... People are dying and that is horrible. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 12:19pm

I am hoping for better treatment options...Still have some hope left Ivermectin may find some use...Plasma therapy...anything that works ! 

More clever ways to vaccinate more people better (nasal spray may offer upper respitory protection ?). In part "no needles" may allready help ! 

I hope to avoid catching the virus...Hope that if I catch it I will see as little as possible healthissues...(Maybe 25% of the global population so far did get the virus ??? Enough hosts left...)

ME163 may your wounds heal...both body and mind....


We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 12:49pm

Originally posted by Usk Usk wrote:

The bottom line message here is that we are all going to get it vaccine or not. We need to focus on better treatment options. My cousin who was on deaths door recently after 2 weeks in the hospital. He was vaccinated in February.  His wife who is an ER doc insisted  he be given plasma therapy Before they put him on a ventilator. They did and within 2 days his fever broke and he recovered fullyin 5 days!!!

Wow, your cousin was extremely lucky that his wife was an ER doctor and in a position to insist on the plasma therapy, most people aren't that lucky. I'm glad he's recovered well. 

My friend's father died from Covid in the UK about 5 days ago after 2  weeks in the ICU. By all accounts his was a terrible death. He was fit and healthy, and fully vaccinated.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pixie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 12:50pm

ME163,  Hospitals across the US are preparing or have already activated crisis care because most beds are unvaccinated patients making care for everybody else near impossible. Yes,death and suffering no matter who is a terrible thing but when it is easily avoidable with a vaccine,knowing it would save their families heartbreak,help to keep their community transmission lower,help the medical staff and hospitals to be able to provide for all and show respect for the many months of breakneck care they have provided everyone seems like a no brainer. I am glad you were able to get the care you needed.Sadly there are many stories of people suffering of non covid illness because there is no room at the inn,being shipped 100’s of miles away or dying while waiting. Millions of people did the right thing,they didn’t need to be bribed with gift certificates,lottery tickets,free chicken McNuggets to be swayed to take the vaccine,they acted for the common good. That is the only way out of this mess.

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Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

I am hoping for better treatment options...Still have some hope left Ivermectin may find some use...Plasma therapy...anything that works ! 

More clever ways to vaccinate more people better (nasal spray may offer upper respitory protection ?). In part "no needles" may allready help ! 

I hope to avoid catching the virus...Hope that if I catch it I will see as little as possible healthissues...(Maybe 25% of the global population so far did get the virus ??? Enough hosts left...)

ME163 may your wounds heal...both body and mind....


I'm also hoping to avoid it but am thinking that realistically we'll all end up being exposed to it. I'm following Dr Chris Martenson's advice to try and prepare my body for it, and trying to bolster my immune system. Of course none of us know how we will react to it. When I was in lawschool we learnt about the egg shell skull rule which is a legal doctrine that states that injuries must be taken as they are without speculation of what those injuries would have been if the person did not have a condition that predisposes him to a more severe outcome. In other words, some of us have an egg shell skull and some of us don't, and we don't find it out until someone else comes and whacks us on the head with a brick. 

This principle really does apply to Covid and I keep thinking about it. There is no way to tell if we are predisposed to a severe case of it until we encounter it.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 12:57pm

Originally posted by ME163 ME163 wrote:

Thought I might tell you something about covid that I learned while here in the hospital. My doctors tell me that I need to get back to therapy.  More breathing  treatments for me, yay !!.  I think that I lost at least 10 pounds in the last 3 days here.   I found out that two people died from covid last night.  That's 34 in the last 3 weeks.  I just cried when I heard about it.  You must have empathy for the suffering.  I don't care if they are unvaccinated.   They are people. They have families and friends who are shell shocked.  Enough bullshit about not caring about the dying or the dead.  Unless you are here in the isolation ward, or have been, you don't have a right to bitch about the dying and the dead.  It's an agonizing painful death to watch.  I have seen enough death in the past year and a half.     I don't like to post from the ward.  It's a real pain in the ass. But, this is stupid.... People are dying and that is horrible. 

How are you ME163? It's a good sign that you're messaging us from hospital. Get well soon.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 18 2021 at 9:24pm

friends, 

I should be out by Tuesday and home eating pizza and enjoying a  game of scrabble with Jill's and Becky's kids.   We are going to be ok.  I have to learn to do the breathing treatments at home with Jill and or Becky.  Vicki is going home Monday as she is doing very well.   I have learned that the latest trend is to be aggressive with the plasma treatments and ivermectin.   We also encourage our friends to take Zinc and Vitamin D.   We pray that none of you have to go thru this Hell on earth. 

ME 163 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2021 at 12:30am

Infection with SARS-CoV2 can lead to long-lasting damage.  The thing attacks our circulatory system, nerves, and lung tissue in devastating fashion. 

I'm extremely concerned about the cavalier attitude being expressed by many about this pathogen.  The longer it circulates, the greater the chance that even more robust variants will emerge.  In fact, it is nearly guaranteed.  

There is no "natural immunity."  Immunity from infection is inferior to vaccination, and we do not yet know how long immunity from either exposure will last.  I do not intend to play Russian roulette with my health, nor my family's health. 

Therefore, I suggest that you ignore those who are traipsing through life as though everything is fine.  Will we all "get" COVID-19?  Not if we vaccinate.  This has worked for smallpox and will work for COVID.  

I know things about this pathogen that most don't, so use caution.  At the outset of the outbreak, I predicted 2 million US deaths based upon early Wuhan, China reporting, and then revised it down to about 1 million US deaths.  I believe that this number is where the final case fatality rate with rest.  Be safe, Chuck


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Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

 Will we all "get" COVID-19?  Not if we vaccinate.  This has worked for smallpox and will work for COVID.  

Chuck how can you say this when Pfizer and most governments are acknowledging that the vaccines do not prevent people from catching covid, or from being contagious to others, but they do increase your chance of a less severe illness? 

I'm not making this stuff up, everyone's saying it. Apart from America, the rest of the world has accepted that the protection from the vaccines wears off quickly and that they won't stop Covid. It's endemic now and we will have to live with it until someone comes up with a sterilizing vaccine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 19 2021 at 2:24pm

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

 Will we all "get" COVID-19?  Not if we vaccinate.  This has worked for smallpox and will work for COVID.  

Chuck how can you say this when Pfizer and most governments are acknowledging that the vaccines do not prevent people from catching covid, or from being contagious to others, but they do increase your chance of a less severe illness? 

I'm not making this stuff up, everyone's saying it. Apart from America, the rest of the world has accepted that the protection from the vaccines wears off quickly and that they won't stop Covid. It's endemic now and we will have to live with it until someone comes up with a sterilizing vaccine.

I can say it because I am a scientist and work with scientific evidence.  Getting COVID-19 depends entirely upon exposure - if we took it seriously & continued to mask/social distance/vaccinate, the disease would run out of hosts (people) and burn out.  This is why SARS died out in 2003, we took it so seriously. 

Folks are playing games with this virus, pretending it isn't that bad, they have natural immunity etc.  

Also, NO vaccine prevents infection!  They are not force-fields - what they do is provide protection to those exposed to the pathogen.  Once exposed, a vaccinated person maay have mild, or no, symptoms at all.  Risk of transmittal to other susceptible hosts is possible but greatly reduced since fulminant illness is curtailed

All we can do is take care of ourselves.  I wear masks, avoid crowds, and am waiting for the Moderna booster.  I have numerous pre-existing conditions that would make a battle with COVID very bad for me.   We could have eliminated this thing by now if folks took it seriously.  Instead, it will continue to kill for months.

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Yes that's what I think. Countries around the world have been too quick to abandon the masks and social distancing suggestions. We can't rely on vaccines alone. In our culture we've developed a strange mentality that we should carry on as usual when feeling unwell - our televisions are awash with adverts for cold and flu medications that will disguise your symptoms so you can be a trooper and get back to work - and if anything, Covid should be teaching us all to be more considerate of other people and if we feel unwell, we should stay at home and keep our germs to ourselves. 

(fyi I've noticed that those adverts have disappeared from our screens over here. The government is telling anyone who has any cold symptoms, no matter how slight, to go and get tested for Covid and to stay at home until they receive the all clear. )

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote pheasant Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 21 2021 at 8:33am

   False argument, in civil society, we receive the benifits of our society, I pay into the system, contribute to the healthcare system, and am so entitled to the best health care available even if I make "bad" decisions. In a civil society, even those who cannot contribute still receive those benefits.

   The position you declare is socialism/ Progressivism and run afoul. where others, like yourself declare what "behavior" is acceptable. Next will it be "No Medical Care" depending on your political affiliation? or maybe where you live? Or what you eat, or drive?

   This is a callus excuse for non-acceptance, dismissive of another persons rights, it leaves no room for dissent. It is the maxim for intolerance. The Irony Is, the declaration you make is actually the selfish argument.

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Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Folks are playing games with this virus, pretending it isn't that bad, they have natural immunity etc.  


Can't you give it a rest?

In the UK the figures seem to be 80% of sufferers only experience mild effects ranging from a mild cold to flu like conditions. Also that around 30% of these are totally asymptomatic so have no symptoms at all and have no idea they even have the disease.

Furthermore as of Dec 2020 the total number of people who were under the age of 60 and had no underlying conditions or other illnesses who had died was just 388 in total in England. So in short if you are fit, healthy, not a fat pig, don't over exert your body by doing daily marathons, don't do drugs etc then its pretty well an irrelevance. (and no a bodybuilder is NOT a healthy person).


I mean I even know one who had the virus, confirmed by antibody tests, then had the vax as they are a frequent  business traveler - and the resulting side effects from the sodding vax were worse than the blinking virus!


At the peak there were just over 50,000 people in the UK testing positive each day - and I reckon you can double that number to get the the real number of infections if you count in those who had no intention whatsoever of getting tested or going anywhere near the NHS. So how many of this maybe 100,000 infected each day  died? - very few. They sat at home either feeling sh*t or at the other extreme if they were in the 30% as above doing a bit of DIY in their enforced isolation while feeling normal.  How many of all of these have been re-infected - equally few.


Meanwhile on some of the more hysterical forums there are claims that all the anti-vaxers are going to die. Well no actually most are not,  particularly if the antivax are represented by the more healthly in the community.


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Well said.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 25 2021 at 8:59am

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

According to the latest research, we will all get Covid, regardless of whether we are vaccinated or not. And that will include you and me. My friend's father died of Covid last night. A man in his 70's, by all accounts fit and healthy, and he was fully vaccinated. And today he's dead. It's left a family completely devastated. 


I bet they are.  I know the parents of the 19 year old that live in my building are still in deep mourning for their son.  The son refused the vax but contracted it and died a few months ago. Even the doctors said, unless there was something wrong with his immune system to begin with (very though to discover in young healthy adults), that he would have almost certainly survived had he gotten the jab.  

Sadly, the efficacy probably waned quickly for your friend's father because of his age. Or didn't ramp up to levels that would protect him because of his age.  Its why the experts are pushing for a 3rd dose to those 65 and above.  Healthy or not, a 70 is in that higher risk group where the vast majority of breakthrough infection fatalities are  showing by the statistics. Why? Because those over 65 seem to have a less than robust immune system.  That's why there's a higher dosage flu vax every year for those compromised immune systems of older adults. 


Which reminds me, as a group I'd like to see both sides of the "question" refresh their memories on what the word "efficacy" means in relation to vaccines.  Some are talking like the vaccine doesn't work at all to stem infection, but the fact is there are break through infections in ALL vaccines.  Especially older adults. 

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