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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

First Witnessed Death Due to Covid

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    Posted: July 18 2021 at 7:15am

So Covid has been raging around the world. I was wondering when I would personally know someone who died from Covid. 


Yesterday it happened...


My good friends sister in law died after the Pfizer vaccination. She keeled over two weeks after the jab. Her husband, My mates brother,  who was also injected on the same day has had neurological problems ever since. He's got paralysis and brain fog. He's that bad he can't take care of his daughter. 


Terrible for my mate and his family, as he cant fly to Hong Kong to help...


Anyone else had a similar experience?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 1:48pm

Yes. I have an ex work colleague who has been partially paralysed since receiving her Pfizer jab. The symptoms came on 2 days after the jab and she can't move her right arm or leg, and it's spreading up into her jaw. She can't drive and she can't work, and she's in pain. Doctors are telling her it's coincidental. She's 52.

Also I have a relative who is 56 who started getting terrible pain and partial paralysis in his jaw and face since the day after his second Pfizer. His friend is also double jabbed and has developed 2 breast tumours. Coincidence?????

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 2:03pm

I know of two people who have had adverse reactions to the covid vaccine,  I have a cousin who's best mate had a heart issue due to the clotting factor of the blood.  She was in the hospital for a week.  An old classmate of  mine had a reaction to the shot after getting the Johnson and Johnson shot.  He was rushed to the hospital and spent 2 days in the hospital.  

No paralysis here yet, 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 3:07pm

I don't know of anyone who has died from vaccine......

And millions have had some  type of vaccine.....

 I KNOW 500 THOUSAND AMERICANS HAVE DIED FROM VIRUS AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD.....

ANTI VACCERS  ARE A BUNCH OF ILL INFORMED FOOLS.....

any anti vaccine talk must be stamped on.......

Vaccines are the ONLY way out of this PANDEMIC.....

TAKE CARE all 😷😉



Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 4:01pm

We should do this to all deniers........


SBS News: British far-right commentator Katie Hopkins to be deported from Australia after her visa was cancelled.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/british-far-right-commentator-katie-hopkins-to-be-deported-from-australia-after-her-visa-was-cancelled

Good riddance to rubbish/garbage......

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 4:13pm

No reactions here except gratitude.

I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 10:56pm

Reuters: World leaders pledge to redouble pandemic fight at special APEC meeting.

https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/world-leaders-dial-new-zealand-hosts-special-apec-meeting-pandemic-2021-07-16/

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2021 at 11:41pm

CNN: The Delta variant is so contagious, those unprotected will likely get it, a Trump administration FDA chief says.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/18/health/us-coronavirus-sunday/index.html

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 3:05am

[url]https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/guillain-barre-syndrome/symptoms/[/url] or https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/guillain-barre-syndrome/symptoms/ ;

Early symptoms

Symptoms of Guillain-Barré syndrome usually develop over hours or days and tend to start in your feet and hands before spreading to your arms and legs.

At first you may have:

  • numbness
  • pins and needles
  • muscle weakness
  • pain
  • problems with balance and co-ordination

These symptoms usually affect both sides of the body at the same time.

Later symptoms

The symptoms may continue to get worse over the next few days or weeks.

Some people are only mildly affected, but others may have:

Guillain-Barré syndrome usually reaches its most severe point within 4 weeks. It may then remain stable for a few weeks or months before gradually improving.

Get medical help

See a GP if you notice any of the early symptoms of Guillain-Barré syndrome, such as numbness or weakness.

Call 999 for an ambulance or go to your nearest accident and emergency (A&E) department immediately if someone:

  • has difficulty breathing, swallowing or speaking
  • cannot move their limbs or face

This is a medical emergency and the person needs to be seen in hospital as soon as possible.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome#Vaccine_onset[/url] or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillain%E2%80%93Barr%C3%A9_syndrome#Vaccine_onset

An increased incidence of Guillain–Barré syndrome followed influenza immunization that followed the 1976 swine flu outbreak (H1N1 A/NJ/76); 8.8 cases per million (0.0088 per 1000) recipients developed it as a complication.[19] GBS cases occurred in 362 patients during the 6 weeks after influenza vaccination of 45 million persons, an 8.8-fold increase over normal rates.[20] The 1976 swine flu vaccination-induced GBS was an outlier; small increases in incidence have been observed in subsequent vaccination campaigns, but not to the same extent.[19] The 2009 flu pandemic vaccine against pandemic swine flu virus H1N1/PDM09 did not cause a significant increase in cases. In fact, "studies found a small increase of approximately 1 case per million vaccines above the baseline rate, which is similar to that observed after administration of seasonal influenza vaccines over the past several years."[9] The benefits to the population as a whole of vaccination in preventing influenza outweigh the small risks to individuals of that group of GBS after vaccination.[21] Natural influenza infection is a stronger risk factor for the development of GBS than is influenza vaccination and the vaccination reduced the risk of GBS overall by lowering the risk of catching influenza.[22]

In the United States, GBS after seasonal influenza vaccination is listed on the federal government's vaccine injury table.[23]

In 2021 the U.S. Food And Drug Administration took steps to warn about the possible existence of a rare association of the Johnson & Johnson Covid-19 vaccine with the syndrome

DJ Vaccines are a medical intervention and never 100% without any risk. There may be other reasons then GBS for (serious sometimes fatal) reactions on vaccines. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 4:56am

Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

I don't know of anyone who has died from vaccine......

And millions have had some  type of vaccine.....

 I KNOW 500 THOUSAND AMERICANS HAVE DIED FROM VIRUS AND MILLIONS OF OTHERS AROUND THE WORLD.....

ANTI VACCERS  ARE A BUNCH OF ILL INFORMED FOOLS.....

any anti vaccine talk must be stamped on.......

Vaccines are the ONLY way out of this PANDEMIC.....

TAKE CARE all 😷😉



I almost always agree with you, Carbon, even when you are being told off for being rude.  I have to argue this time.  NO vaccine is 100% safe and vaccination is only one tool in pandemic control.

To argue with myself:  This vaccine is over a million times less likely to harm or kill you than this disease and without vaccination of almost everyone our chances of controlling or conquering this disease are nill! But we still need the other pandemic control measures too: masks, distancing, isolation and quarantine.

So, getting the vaccine is the smart, responsible and moral thing to do - without any doubt.  But unless we tell the bald truth (warts and all) we leave the door open for misinformation and propaganda.


OK, so I nitpick.  Call me a pedant if you wish.  I am.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabitha111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 7:11am

Posted elsewhere but will post here- I do not know of ANYONE that has had a bad reaction to the vaccine and that includes my 31 year old son and his wife, my 8 brothers and sisters and ALL of thier adult children, my 90 year old father and my 89 year old mother and EVERY SINGLE older adult in my complex (all 158 of us).....but here is this little tidbit- someone I KNEW very well, in fact I lived with him for 2 years and we remodled my condo together for a period of 3 months in order to sell it (didn't end up selling it as I broke it off during the remodel and moved back into my condo)

Reading this past Sunday's local newspaper, came across the obit of an ex-boyfriend of mine. He was only 58. A Virginia Beach police officer, died of Covid on the fourth of July.
According to Facebook posts he was unvaccinated due to his political beliefs!! SMH
His present girlfriend was also hospitalized with Covid, she is an oncology nurse of all things, unvaxxed! She was released two days before he passed away.
Such preventable circumstances!
Btw, they both had the Delta varient.

'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 7:34am

So sorry, Tabitha.  What is sad in that circumstance is the needlessness of it all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 7:43am

Terrible!  Worse that it was avoidable!  

My sympathies Tabitha.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 8:32am

Look,  I have been in a hell of a ICU for months I  saw many people die from it.  Vaccinate or risk death. it is not rocket science.   If you saw what I saw , you would be  kidnapping your family members who refuse to vaccinate and forcibly giving them the shot.  I kid you not,  The last person I saw who died was a 43 year old mom of 4.  She was so scared of leaving her kids.   She had her last words with them  14 days before she died.  She then was intubated and 14 days later she died.   She died in a coma.    The nurses cried because the lady was one of their co workers.  The lady was one of the first ones to treat Vicki and I ,   I had tears streaming down my face that morning . I knew she was going to die.  Get the damm shot . 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 8:57am

ME163 [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear[/url] or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hear,_hear ....No vaccine is 100% perfect...but we have to STOP THE SPREAD anyway we can !

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 12:39pm

[... 'And vaccinating kids might just be the way to go too.  Then the chance of herd immunity would emerge.


This struck me as a good argument;  its conclusions came from a doctor too.]


Other nations are vaccinating kids. Why isn’t the UK?

The UK is still considering whether to recommend vaccination for under-18s even though many countries have already decided the benefits outweigh the risks

JEFF KOWALSKY/AFP via Getty Images

In May 2021, Judith Guzman-Cottrill found herself facing a difficult decision. A paediatric infectious diseases physician at Oregon Health & Science University, she had just identified some of the earliest cases of myocarditis in adolescents who had received a Covid-19 vaccine.

The news was particularly concerning, as Guzman-Cottrill’s own 13 year old daughter had just become eligible to receive a vaccination herself. “The first case at our hospital was in late April,” she says. “But in May, I began to hear about a few more cases from infectious disease colleagues across the country. My daughter has a history of autoimmune illnesses, and I had to make a decision about her vaccine, so I was thinking about this from the doctor’s standpoint, and also as a parent.”

She set up a Zoom call with her colleagues, who had all witnessed the same trend – a small handful of otherwise healthy adolescent boys, aged 14-19, who developed sudden chest pains within a few days of their second vaccine dose.


But while these findings provoked some concern, Guzman-Cottrill’s experience of treating children over the past 18 months meant she still concluded that the protective benefits of vaccination far outweighed any potential risks. After careful consideration, she agreed to let her daughter have the jab. “I've been taking care of children who have been hospitalised with Covid-19 since the beginning of the pandemic,” she says. “And the numbers are much lower than adults, but it's certainly not zero.”

In a microcosm, Guzman-Cottrill’s dilemma encapsulates the one currently being faced by the UK’s Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI). Right now only children deemed particularly vulnerable to Covid-19 – for example those with severe neurological impairments – are eligible for a vaccine, but with increasing numbers of nations across Europe rolling out vaccines to those aged 12 and over, the regulator is coming under pressure to follow suit.


Reports suggest that 20 European countries are either currently vaccinating 12-18 year olds or planning to do so in the very near future, alongside the UAE, Israel, Japan, Singapore, US, China, Canada, and the Philippines. “The recommendations are made by immunisation committees in each of these countries,” says Beate Kampmann, director of the Vaccine Centre at the London School of Hygiene & Tropical Medicine. “It's driven by the dynamics of the epidemic in that country, political pressure and vaccine supply. The US has got tons of vaccines, so they have the ability to downscale the ages very quickly.”

As well as protecting children themselves from the Sars-CoV-2 virus, one of the main goals of extending the vaccination campaign to younger age groups is to break transmission chains within households and schools. The sheer contagiousness of the new Delta variant means scientists are concerned that children could spread it to elderly relatives who may have not mounted a full immune response to their own vaccine, leaving them vulnerable. There have already been cases of so-called vaccine breakthrough infections - where fully vaccinated people become infected again with Covid-19 - in over 50s, suggesting that their immune response has waned.

There is already evidence in some countries who have already rolled out the vaccine to younger age groups, that this can help lower transmission rates. In Israel, who began vaccinating 16-18 year olds last December, infection rates have plummeted from 559 cases per 100,000 people in mid January, to 1.5 per 100,000 today, with rates also dropping in unvaccinated children.

“Now we have this Delta variant, I think we're definitely going to be seeing an increase in transmission this coming autumn and winter, as kids go back to the classroom,” says Guzman-Cottrill. “I see it as kind of a race against the calendar to vaccinate children before then, when seasons change and everyone goes back indoors.”


But while vaccines remain society’s most powerful defensive weapon against the coronavirus, other scientists emphasise that the risk/benefit ratio of inoculating the young does need to be carefully assessed. Children’s bodies are sensitive, and differ at varying stages of development, meaning the jabs may need to be adapted to suit their needs. In particular, the juvenile immune system can react more vigorously to vaccines, leading to side effects which may not be present in adults. It is this which is thought to be behind the cases of heart inflammation, and as a result some scientists have broached the idea of either giving children only one shot instead of two or reducing the dose. However so far, neither concept has been thoroughly tested.

“The younger you are, the higher chance you have of having more reactogenicity to the vaccine,” says Guzman-Cottrill. “So more fever, more chills, more muscle aches, as well as other side effects.”

As a result, the JCVI has been cautiously observing the safety data emerging from around the world as other countries roll out the vaccine in 12-18 year olds, before coming to its own decision. “You need to take safety extremely, extremely seriously to make sure that there isn't anything else untoward emerging,” Kampmann says. “Until we've got a safety database that is sufficient for JCVI, for making informed recommendations, it is also a question of prioritisation, which is why planning the booster shots campaign took precedence over organising anything for the children.”

Most of the safety data we have on how the vaccine performs in children comes from the US where the Pfizer vaccine was approved for use in 16-18 year olds last December, before being rolled out to 12-15 year olds in May. Sonja Rasmussen, professor of paediatrics and epidemiology at the University of Florida, is adamant that the benefit outweighs any risks of vaccine side effects, pointing to how the proportion of Covid-19 cases in children have risen in recent months.


“We know kids aren't as severely affected by Covid-19 as adults, but that doesn't mean they don't have any effect,” she says. “Over 300 kids have died in the US since Covid started, and a lot have been hospitalised. Now the proportion of new infections that are made up by kids is increasing a lot, from about two per cent in March 2020, to around 24 per cent at the moment.”

So far the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has confirmed 594 cases of vaccine-related myocarditis in under 30s, including 12-18 year olds, but Rasmussen points out that the incidence remains very rare. More than six million 12-18 year olds across the US have now received the vaccine, and most myocarditis cases rapidly resolve after a few days of anti-inflammatory treatment. A recent analysis from the CDC also estimated that for every million second dose vaccinations of children aged 12-17 over 120 days, there are somewhere between 64 and 79 cases of myocarditis. But these vaccinations prevent an estimated 14,200 cases of Covid-19, which would normally result in 398 hospitalisations, 109 intensive care admissions, and 3 deaths.

“I think for kids above the age of 12, we have really good data right now that the benefit of the vaccine is worth the risk,” says Rasmussen. “I do think right now parents need to be thinking, ‘Do I want my kid to get the vaccine? Or do I want my kid to get Covid-19?’”

While children are less vulnerable to Covid-19 than adults, there are some very real risks. It is hoped that vaccinations will protect children from Multisystem Inflammatory Syndrome (MIS-C), a serious condition which begins a few weeks after an acute Covid-19 infection, and affects around 1 in 5,000 children, particularly people from Black, Asian or ethnic minority backgrounds. There is also increasing evidence that children of all ages are vulnerable to Long Covid. John Warner, a professor of paediatrics at Imperial College, London, has been working with the StopCOVID Research Team at Sechenov First Moscow State Medical University on a study attempting to assess the prevalence of Long Covid in different age groups.

Out of 518 children aged between zero and 18, who tested positive for Covid-19, they found that 24.3 per cent were still suffering from persistent symptoms ranging from fatigue to allergic reactions, some five months later, with 12-18 year olds proving particularly vulnerable. “These are children not necessarily admitted to hospital,” says Warner. “These are children with mild and sometimes even asymptomatic infection who have just been picked up because they were contacts of a known case. So it's a considerable burden.”

While teenagers appear to be most susceptible to Long Covid, it can also be seen in even younger children. According to the Office of National Statistics, it occurs in 7.4 per cent of children between two and 11, who have tested positive for the virus.

As a result, while the JCVI is still deliberating over vaccinating 12-18 year olds, other countries are contemplating the prospect of rolling out the jab later this year to even younger children. At the moment, none of the Covid-19 vaccines have been approved for use in under 12s, but both Pfizer and Moderna are currently conducting clinical trials in this age group, with the results anticipated in the next few months.

Guzman-Cottrill says that for many children, vaccination could represent a path back to a more normal life. “This pandemic has been really mentally challenging for children from a mental health perspective,” she says. “It has really taken a toll on their mental health, with the isolation, and the inability to do whatever it is that they love. We have to consider that as well.


Source:   Wired

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I love the debate....

Even having a tooth out carries a risk ........

Any medical intervention involves risk,

It's a balance......

In this case the scales are well in favour of getting vaccinated....... Friend of mine's sister in the UK has long covid.....was a healthy women of 45..... Now can't leave her home...... Long covid is the Great unknown here....... Vaccines have saved billions of lives Thanks Mr Jenner....... Take care all 😷😉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 2:50pm

I think Techno is right about the "warts and all" approach. The problem comes when people are refusing to acknowledge the risks associated with the vaccine - because all vaccines have risks. When you refuse to hear someone else's concerns then you are essentially saying "your opinion is irrelevant and you're an idiot". If only people would just stop being so polarised by this. 

As for vaccinating children, I have my reservations. One of my children is so sensitive to vaccinations that after his last flu jab the doctor has suggested that he no longer gets them. He reacts really badly to any jab. To date he is fully vaccinated but he won't be having the Covid one because of this. Thankfully he's too young at the moment to be included in the rollout. 

The fastest way to make people suspicious is to be blase about their concerns. And that's what we're seeing, particularly in England. It's gaslighting on a monumental scale.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 3:13pm

Exactly, KiwiMum!  The risks are tiny, but still very real.

In your shoes, vaccinating my son would be a big decision!  It would be preceded by a long talk with the doctor about ameliorating the side-effects.  (Steroids could well do this, but they have their own side-effects too.)  Luckily for you, New Zealand is virus free and so you have options.  In his case, I might just give it a miss.

Sadly for the rest of us, New Zealand stands alone in its blessed status and those who have the nastiest reactions to the vaccine are often those who would have suffered the most from the disease itself.  (The very bit of the virus which is most likely to cause cytokine storms and other damaging reactions is usually the one chosen for inclusion in a vaccine, as they go on to elicit the strongest vaccine responses.)   So the weighing of the risks in vaccinating against a nasty disease is elevated by a similar amount on both sides of the scales.  The ratios remain roughly the same;  effectively it remains the best course for anyone in a virus-ridden country like this hell-hole.  

Of course, that does not make the decisions any easier, or excuse deliberate misinformation.  Everyone's opinion is valid and what looks like a "stupid" response may be driven by hidden factors - and not be "stupid" at all.  Not listening is the real stupidity (that and our UK government's entire approach, although stupidity may be too mild a word here).


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________



I came back and edited this to add the following:  

People like KiwiMum's son are the reason the healthy among us really should get the vaccine.  

When, for valid medical reasons, you can't get the vaccine, you rely on the rest of us being immune to stop the virus from reaching you.  

So, get the vaccine, or put kids like him at risk.  I have a friend who is a transplantee.  He relies on "Herd immunity" too, as the vaccine won't work for him either.  Another friend's brother just finished chemo'; he can't have the vaccine until September.   


Please don't risk the lives of our friends and family.


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CNN: Covid-19 hospitalizations and deaths are increasing, and the vast majority were not vaccinated.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/19/health/us-coronavirus-monday/index.html

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The risks are small. The dangers far outweigh the risks. I saw so many die and so sad to be separated from each other.  I loved Vicki enough to say to the doctors, make sure she lives.  She is the love of my life. They placed us together in the ICU and I would not leave her side until she got well enough to go to a nursing home.    Being separated from her is death itself .    So get your dammed shots or risk being separated from the ones you love.    Ir is hell having this crap anyway....  But to be separated from the love of your life  is worse than dying.  

ME163 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 19 2021 at 10:19pm

Hey Cobber looks like your state  going into a "lockdown"......

Hope you going to wear a mask.....and get the vaccine...........after all it's just a "powderpuff".....

Lmao

Take care all 😷😉

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ABC News: South Australia 'moves into lockdown' after five COVID cases associated with Modbury Hospital cluster.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-20/south-australia-moves-into-lockdown/100306696

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2021 at 5:07am

I know I see people dying on the news. I've seen lots. I've also seen enough to know that we aren't getting the whole story. I don't trust the news and haven't since 911 and WMD's. I do however trust friends that tell me their experiences. That's why I asked the question here. 


I know many who have had Covid, however only one has been serious.  He was very old, he lived. He's fine now.


Like I said, I was shocked when a friend told me his sister in law died, and his brother had a strange paralysis. She literally froze, and fell to the floor dead (38years old). Up until then I had only heard stories of side effects. I thought most of them were kooks and took it with a grain of salt. My wife was in the same boat.


now i'm like WTF...


I'm concerned because I'm high risk with Covid. I'm now also concerned about vaccines. I just want to know the truth. So please tell me your experiences. 

Do you know anyone personally or third hand from a trusted friend.

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Sure Cobber.  Here goes:

I don't know anyone who had a bad reaction to the vaccines.  Almost everyone I know has had both.  But I only know of those who used PfizerBiontech and AstraZeneca.  They don't use any others over here.  I myself had the AZ as did my daughter - both fine.   Hubby had the PB and had no  problems even though he has an overactive immune system with a tendency to attack himself.

I do know of one death personally from Covid itself (quite elderly) and two because the lockdown cut back on doctor's visits ( both middle aged) - which allowed other diseases to kill them.  I personally also know of two people who were very umpleasntly symptomatic, but not quite bad enough to require hospitalisation (both middle aged again).

Currently our doctor's surgery is closed with: "unforseen Covid related problems",  although they have been consulting with and treating almost all patients over the phone for all of this year and most of last.  

Hubby missed 3 of his last 4 cancer checkups due to Covid closures, although he was given the: "five year all clear" in person.  Our local hospital accepts no visitors and is deferring all but the most urgent care.

To finish the list, I have a transplantee among my friends and a teenager who just finished lukemia treatments - neither can benefit from the vaccine; both rely on isolation and herd immunity to continue to live, Covid would definitely kill both of them.  I also know several severe asthmatics (one is my step grandson) who dread the disease despite being young.  One casual friend with emphesyma has dissapeared; I fear the worst, but have no concrete information - so I can't say for definite.  Two diabetics among my friends also live in fear; one does not go out, the other has no choice.

Not on this site, I have a penpal who has lost 3 close relatives to the disease itself - so far.

I have only one friend who refused the vaccine.  He is young, physically fit, thin and a repeat visitor to the inpatient ward of the local lunatic asylum.

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Ok, Cobber, 


Our experience with Covid has been a bit different from the rest of you. But  after 8.6 million dollars in medical bills, here we go :  

!. once you get it, get to the best medical care you can find.  Spare no expense to fight this murderer.  We went to the hospital upon diagnosis.   Don't let them bullshit you.  GO to best medical facility that you can find.  

2.  Make sure that your affairs are in order.  Your family will thank you later.  Get a will and a power of attorney.  Get cash, cash is king.  Pay your bills in advance.  Settle your debts.  

3. Don't forget your pets.  have someone who can take care of them for you while you are in the medical center.  

4.  Prepare for a long siege if you are staying home.  Buy enough for a 3 month siege.  Develop a moat like situation.  

5. If you get it, the mental perspective is important, Fight like a tazzie devil.  be as tough as a hell.  Don't be afraid to get second opinion of what you need to do.  We got the best of the best doctors to care for us.  We did not get separated during our treatment in the hospital.  Our insurance company spared no expense for us.   WE got all available treatment options. They threw the kitchen sink at the dammed thing.  We got the best care humanly possible.  Don't let them tell you that there are no options.  Options are available and you must have aggressive treatment and support.  

6. Oxygen is King, get plenty of it.  Vitamin D is Queen. Take a lot of it.  Take care of your mental health.  Birng a hobby with you to the hospital.  I took my playing cards and  coloring books. Yes, they did let me take them with me.   

7. Ivermection ? and dexros ? helped  Rendesvir ? was given.  We got first class treatment from the world's best doctors.  Get the best nursing care money can buy.  

8. Prepare if you go to the hospital.  You need to prepare to see death up close and personal.  You need to prepare for isolation from the rest of society.  

I hope this helps you, Cobber. 

God bless youl hopefully Powderpuff won't impact you too badly. 


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Cobber: 

Are you sure that your friend in Hong Kong ,had the Pfizer ??

I would have thought it would have been Sinovax.....

Which I have doubts about.......

Take care all 😷😉


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Cobber, I'm with you on this one. I personally know 2 people who've had (and are still having) terrible side effects from the Pfizer jab. I've also looked at the process that a vaccine normally has to go through in order to pass it's safety protocols, and what concerns me immensely about the "vaccines" that are circulating is that not one of them has moved out of the experimental stage. 

Now before anyone shouts me down about the millions of people who've received the vaccines, the bit that concerns me is the analysis of both the short term and the long term effects of these experimental vaccines. Not enough time has passed yet to even accurately assess the short term effects let alone the long term effects. This is why most vaccines take 10 - 14 years to gain approval. The number of people receiving them is irrelevant from a time perspective. 

So to be clear here, however great you think the vaccines are, be fully aware that they are only officially "experimental vaccines" at this point in time. Having one makes you a guinea pig in a huge experiment. 

Now I have relatives in 5 countries overseas who have happily had various covid vaccines and they have been very grateful to get them. They range in age from 21 (a nurse who had previously had Covid) through to an 90 year old man who is quite frail. One relative (a 24 year old police officer had a bad reaction and was in bed for 9 days after her jab, please note she'd previously had Covid as well) and another 56 year old male relative is suffering from partial facial paralysis which is accompanied by increasingly severe pain, these symptoms appeared the day after his second jab and are getting progressively worse. 

The other reservation I have about the vaccines is that they don't actually always stop you from getting Covid, but what they do do is, in the majority of cases, stop it developing into a very severe form of the virus, thereby reducing the number of people who will need hospital treatment. Now if you think this is untrue, all I can say is that perhaps your government is not giving you the full facts. Here in NZ, this is what our government is telling us. 

I fully understand why the old and vulnerable are lining up to get the jab - they are here too - because their chances of death from Covid increase with age and frailty. Obviously if you are obese, diabetic, have cancer, or any other debilitating illness or condition, then getting the jab might well be the lesser of two evils, but I can't see why there is such a push to vaccinate young people, whose chance of a mild illness is much greater. 

I feel that people are being polarised by this disease and it's fear mongering that is steering the narrative to intolerance of another person's point of view, or freedom to choose what they put into their own bodies. I suspect that the older someone is, the more intolerant of discussion they are. By all means have the vaccine if you want it, but lay off with the preaching and castigation of people who choose not to have it. Their decision does not affect you and it shouldn't concern you. We should view the covid vaccines much as we do the flu vaccines and allow people to choose for themselves.



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The other point I'd like to make is that this a discussion forum, and discussion can only exist if we respect other people's right to a different point of view from our own. We don't want to make this a mutual appreciation society and force out people who disagree. Only time will tell who's right in this situation. Right now it could go either way.

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If people don't want a vaccine fine.....

But they should sign a waiver:

stating they can't receive free  health care from the free heath care facilities, IE Medicare here......if they get sick with a preventable desease.....C19 in this case....

Why should the public have to pay sometimes hundreds of thousands of dollars to "save a life" 

When for a few $$$$$ for a vaccine it's done ....

And no healthcare crisis.....

No doctors and nurses under stress and danger .....

Sign a waiver......???!!!!

Doubt if any would.....

Take care all 😷😉

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I think you will find private health sector,will maybe not cover you in the future if not vaccinated......

It's already started with health care workers here ....no jab no job ....your choice !!!!

Take care all 😷😉

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 20 2021 at 4:01pm

Carbon, if we follow your logic then we should also insist that people who smoke or drink too much also sign the waiver. And what about obesity? What about people who drive too fast? 

Think of the number of medical conditions directly linked to those people? And they don't even need a vaccine that only costs a few dollars. They just need to not smoke, not drink too much, not eat too much, do some exercise, drive more carefully. 

Where does it end?

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KIwi, until you have been in an ICU fighting this thing, I would not say that this vaccine is optional.  I would say that if you think the risks of death are lower from the virus than the vaccine then I have the total of  over 675,000 Americans and 400,000 Indians to show otherwise.   You have to see the death up close and personal.  I have seen lots of people die in the ICU ward.  I can tell you that the risk of death from a Vaccine is far less than a death from Covid.  I have seen about 40 people die in the ward.  You know  when someone is going to die when you see them calling family and moving people out of the area.  I don't think that anyone has a right to infect someone with a deadly virus.  Yes, the vaccine was rushed to be approved however, the 3 stages of controls were met and it was approved.  So, I have some trust in he vaccine.  I don't think the company's lawyers would sign off on the vaccine if it were unsafe or was harmful.  American Civil Law is extremely harsh on those who would send unsafe products into commerce.  We don't have the liberty to kill our fellow citizens with a virus. Just because we don't want to take a vaccine does not give us a right to put our fellow human beings at risk of death.  Remember, I have seen this virus up close and in person.  If those who infect others could have gotten a shot and did not, then the person who did so shoulders the cost of  treatment.   Today we don't have a choice.  If you truly believe that the vaccine harms you more than the virus, then i am sorry but you are morally hazardous and irresponsible.  You ignore the waves of death that will eventually reach your area or nation. No safe place has existed from a world wide pandemic.  There are no safe harbours from COVID 19. 


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In this vaccine debate an element I do not want is "profits from pandemics"...Would we see the Big Pharma vaccine push if there was no profit in it for them ? 

Even the best tested vaccines, medication may be "good" and "save" for the 99%-still have some risks for the 1%...

Here in NL there is NO mandatory vaccination-not for flu, not for Covid-even for HCW-ers caring for the vulnarables...

Again I think the present vaccines offer us limited time-we are not using that time wise...wasting it...

In the past "herd immunity" ended pandemics-not vaccines. Also in this pandemic the idea that "vaccines will save us"-in my opinion is an illusion. An "easy way out" to avoid other, harder, choices on how we live...

Reduce international airtravel with 90%, limit mass events with 90%, proberbly would translate in reducing the spread/variants with 50% ? More effective (also on climate disaster) and lower risk. 

But as long as we put the economy above public health-the way we did since the start of this pandemic-this pandemic worsens...

Vaccines DO increase longer term risks for immunity escape !!! Vaccinations go to slow...with air travel transporting variants, reopenings increasing the spread...at that bases vaccines may get close to useless soon...simply not enough to make the difference...

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Dutch Josh,  

I understand what you are saying and i agree with it to s limited point.  However, I represent the most threatened group of people in the pandemic.  What i am seeing is people not vaccinating for some really silly reasons.  The risk of deaht via vaccine is nil.  The risk of death via infection is a lot higher.   i don't think people understand the issue here.  If we all get the vaccine and keep getting booster shots we will buy time for more workable medical solutions fo the virus.   The vaccine is not perfect but it's better than the alternative and  it is keeping our society working.  I am not sorry for what have said because they are based on real life.   I was in ICU, I was in danger of dying from this crap at least 4 times..  I still have memory issues and get dizzy at times.   I am just staying alive....  


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Originally posted by ME163 ME163 wrote:

KIwi, until you have been in an ICU fighting this thing, I would not say that this vaccine is optional.  I would say that if you think the risks of death are lower from the virus than the vaccine then I have the total of  over 675,000 Americans and 400,000 Indians to show otherwise.   You have to see the death up close and personal.  I have seen lots of people die in the ICU ward.  I can tell you that the risk of death from a Vaccine is far less than a death from Covid.  I have seen about 40 people die in the ward.  You know  when someone is going to die when you see them calling family and moving people out of the area.  I don't think that anyone has a right to infect someone with a deadly virus.  Yes, the vaccine was rushed to be approved however, the 3 stages of controls were met and it was approved.  So, I have some trust in he vaccine.  I don't think the company's lawyers would sign off on the vaccine if it were unsafe or was harmful.  American Civil Law is extremely harsh on those who would send unsafe products into commerce.  We don't have the liberty to kill our fellow citizens with a virus. Just because we don't want to take a vaccine does not give us a right to put our fellow human beings at risk of death.  Remember, I have seen this virus up close and in person.  If those who infect others could have gotten a shot and did not, then the person who did so shoulders the cost of  treatment.   Today we don't have a choice.  If you truly believe that the vaccine harms you more than the virus, then i am sorry but you are morally hazardous and irresponsible.  You ignore the waves of death that will eventually reach your area or nation. No safe place has existed from a world wide pandemic.  There are no safe harbours from COVID 19. 

ME163, you have misunderstood what I meant. What I was saying is that  everyone has a right to an opinion and a right to decide whether or not they have a vaccine. I have a niece who works on a Covid ward in the UK and believe me, I am not underestimating how bad the virus can be for some people. However, I stand by the science that proves that having the vaccine does not stop you from either catching or passing on the virus, so calling out people who are unvaccinated for spreading it is not correct. People who have had the vaccine can still catch it and spread it to others. 

Secondly, it was rushed through and the American government has granted immunity from litigation to the manufacturers. What this means is that you can't sue them, for any reason. In fact under American law, by agreeing to have the vaccine, you are agreeing to take part in a medical trial. 

Before you bite my head off, I think the vaccines are great for some people just not all people. Some people do get really ill and die from it and the vaccine has reduced the severity of the disease in a huge number of elderly and vulnerable people and that's a good thing, but don't forget that the vast majority of people who get Covid have a much milder disease and natural immunity is better than vaccinated immunity and there are scientific studies that back this up. Of course it's a gamble. Who knows who will get it badly. I have a friend who is 50, slim, fit with no co-morbidities and he had it really badly and has had long covid ever since. He's since been double vaccinated and was recently tested for antibodies and found to have none at all in his body, which means he has no natural immunity and no vaccinated immunity. He's devastated and his doctor is perplexed. 

I'm a great supporter of vaccines in general and my family is fully vaccinated. However, I'm also a cautious person and I'm not a lemming. I don't just follow the crowd but like to do my own research and I'm of the opinion that a person should be able to choose. It's as simple as that. 

I also think that the polarising effect of Covid is making people attack others unnecessarily and I take exception to you saying "If you truly believe that the vaccine harms you more than the virus, then i am sorry but you are morally hazardous and irresponsible". You're insulting me personally and I take offense at that. I'm neither morally hazardous or irresponsible, I just believe in a freedom of choice. If we lose that then we lose everything. 

I'm sure you've seen some awful things in the ICU and it must have been a terrible time for you but not everyone ends up there. It was just bad luck. For the majority of people the disease will be like a bad cold, and for the overwhelming majority of children it will be very mild and I think it is preferable for them to catch it and get over it naturally. But that's just my opinion and I'm entitled to it.

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Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

In this vaccine debate an element I do not want is "profits from pandemics"...Would we see the Big Pharma vaccine push if there was no profit in it for them ? 

Even the best tested vaccines, medication may be "good" and "save" for the 99%-still have some risks for the 1%...

Here in NL there is NO mandatory vaccination-not for flu, not for Covid-even for HCW-ers caring for the vulnarables...

Again I think the present vaccines offer us limited time-we are not using that time wise...wasting it...

In the past "herd immunity" ended pandemics-not vaccines. Also in this pandemic the idea that "vaccines will save us"-in my opinion is an illusion. An "easy way out" to avoid other, harder, choices on how we live...

Reduce international airtravel with 90%, limit mass events with 90%, proberbly would translate in reducing the spread/variants with 50% ? More effective (also on climate disaster) and lower risk. 

But as long as we put the economy above public health-the way we did since the start of this pandemic-this pandemic worsens...

Vaccines DO increase longer term risks for immunity escape !!! Vaccinations go to slow...with air travel transporting variants, reopenings increasing the spread...at that bases vaccines may get close to useless soon...simply not enough to make the difference...

Josh, you've hit the nail on the head. It is all about money. We would be better to attack this virus on multiple fronts and too much faith is being put in the vaccines. I'm right with you on reducing air travel and limiting superspreader events. The recent European Cup going ahead was just sheer madness. 

The reason this virus got off the ground so quickly was because no governments wanted to damage their economy by shutting down their borders. Had everyone done so like NZ and Australia then it might well have been nipped in the bud. Little did they know that keeping them open would damage them so extensively. 

For all we know this virus may well have been the shot across the bows that the world needs. Afterall Covid has a low fatality rate. Imagine if something really nasty appeared that had a fatality of 40%???? Hopefully we'll learn from the mistakes made this time round and be ready for next time. Certainly the children of tomorrow will be writing essays entitled "the mistakes that were made with Covid 19". 


"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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The vaccine does not stop some people from passing on the virus.  But it does stop some others from doing so.  

I hear many different figures bandied about concerning how effective the vaccines are at stopping transmission.  Figures range from 92% down to 60%.  Personally I suspect the 60% figure to be much nearer the mark, but they are all guessing on this one.  I also suspect suppression of transmission varies from strain to strain as well as vaccine to vaccine.

Even at the low end of the estimates, that can be enough to drop the R0 below 1 for Covid and that is enough to develop herd immunity - if applied with other measures and if everyone had it.  At the top end of efficency estimates, the vaccine would be sufficient on its own - if everyone had it.  Again I agree with Josh (sadly) and think that money, not humanity is driving the "opening up" of services and travel.  It could even be affecting the figures people quote.

Either way, without the vaccine, more of those like my friends who can't be vaccinated will die.  The debate may rage about how many of those will die, but I do not want to shoulder responsibility for even one of them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cobber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 4:54am

I don't have a position on the vaccine's yet. I have only just become eligible for it recently. I'm not sure is its worth it. My kids I would say no and my wife. Me however I'm high risk so I'm considering.


I heard that every one in Israel is vaccinated 100%, however their Covid death rate has not changed.


Their vaccine doesn't seem to be effective at all.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 5:44am

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

Carbon, if we follow your logic then we should also insist that people who smoke or drink too much also sign the waiver. And what about obesity? What about people who drive too fast? 

Think of the number of medical conditions directly linked to those people? And they don't even need a vaccine that only costs a few dollars. They just need to not smoke, not drink too much, not eat too much, do some exercise, drive more carefully. 

Where does it end?

Yes to all of the above.....

Unfortunately we are coming to a time where we will have to make very hard decisions......

Carbon emissions will have to be reduced by 50% . ..in the next ten years.......how are we as a planet going to achieve that goal......

Don't forget you are talking to a person that thinks the only way the planet can survive the onslaught of the human race is for 75% of the human race needs to be culled......

Sorry for being a realist.......

I do hate myself for being pragmatic....

But I don't see another way out.........

Take care all 😷😉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 6:22am

Nah, Carbon!  If we do not care for each other - faults included - we cease to be human and become something lesser.  I have to side with KiwiMum on that one.  

How far do you go? Do you only treat the perfect, who have been unlucky?  Come to that, Is luck something we could breed for?  

I get it!  Do away with all medicine, karma says we only get what we deserve.

...

                       NO!             

Help the helpless, whenever you can, whatever reason.  Anything else is morally unsound.

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 6:35am

Originally posted by cobber cobber wrote:

I heard that every one in Israel is vaccinated 100%, however their Covid death rate has not changed.

Not really: In the last 24 hours they had 2 deaths.  In January deaths per day were in the 60s - 70s with a peak of 79 on 27th January. 

Source:   Google - and they got it from John Hopkins University

Around 60% of the population has had both doses of a vaccine.

Source:   Google again

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 12:44pm

Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

Originally posted by KiwiMum KiwiMum wrote:

Carbon, if we follow your logic then we should also insist that people who smoke or drink too much also sign the waiver. And what about obesity? What about people who drive too fast? 

Think of the number of medical conditions directly linked to those people? And they don't even need a vaccine that only costs a few dollars. They just need to not smoke, not drink too much, not eat too much, do some exercise, drive more carefully. 

Where does it end?

Yes to all of the above.....

Unfortunately we are coming to a time where we will have to make very hard decisions......

Carbon emissions will have to be reduced by 50% . ..in the next ten years.......how are we as a planet going to achieve that goal......

Don't forget you are talking to a person that thinks the only way the planet can survive the onslaught of the human race is for 75% of the human race needs to be culled......

Sorry for being a realist.......

I do hate myself for being pragmatic....

But I don't see another way out.........

Take care all 😷😉

I agree with you about the state of the planet. We are, as a species, far too numerous. We are never going to voluntarily give up our standard of living in the Western world, because if we distributed the worlds resources evenly, each and every person on this planet would have the living conditions of those in 1890 in London - and that wasn't great!. We'll have to be forced to cut back, and one way to do this would be to reduce the number of people.....

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 12:49pm

Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

Nah, Carbon!  If we do not care for each other - faults included - we cease to be human and become something lesser.  I have to side with KiwiMum on that one.  

How far do you go? Do you only treat the perfect, who have been unlucky?  Come to that, Is luck something we could breed for?  

I get it!  Do away with all medicine, karma says we only get what we deserve.

...

                       NO!             

Help the helpless, whenever you can, whatever reason.  Anything else is morally unsound.


Since the beginning of time humans have cared for each other and we have proof of that in the bones of people who were very elderly and or injured badly and survived. These bones showed that the wounds had healed and they had lived on but some of the bones are from people who would have been rendered incapacitated and unable to hunt, and yet they survived which means they were being cared for in a community. It wasn't all about survival of the fittest. It was all about survival of the fittest community. \

For me the mark of a civilised country is the provision of universal health care.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 21 2021 at 12:53pm

YEP!

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.
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