Click to Translate to English Click to Translate to French  Click to Translate to Spanish  Click to Translate to German  Click to Translate to Italian  Click to Translate to Japanese  Click to Translate to Chinese Simplified  Click to Translate to Korean  Click to Translate to Arabic  Click to Translate to Russian  Click to Translate to Portuguese  Click to Translate to Myanmar (Burmese)

PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
123456
Forum Home Forum Home > Main Forums > General Discussion
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Coming up
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

Coming up

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
Author
Message
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Coming up
    Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:36am

For whatever it's worth, things could change for everybody this winter and probably for quite awhile to come.  There might not be a pandemic this winter, however, H5N1 is expected to reach the U.S. in birds and it will most likely never just go away.  Every winter, it will probably get worse.  We are almost entering a lifestyle change of continual pandemic preparedness as long as H5N1 is present. 

We may see many false alarms this winter (starting in 30 - 45 days).  This winter will be much different than the last one.   People might panic over severe flu and pneumonia cases, etc...  The chain reaction events that could take place this winter could make things interesting.   
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:43am
Albert, I believe you are right on in this. It is the false alarms that could be the problem because it is difficult to maintain that high alert status when you keep getting false reports.

Our behavior is bound to change:

I already look at people who are ill quite differently. I have even found myself doing a 180 when someone sneezes in public. When a family member is ill I watch them like a hawk. I have become a bit compulsive about handwashing. Our definitions of "normal" behavior may change drastically.

We are in for some real challenges.
Back to Top
marks6555 View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: May 09 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 123
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marks6555 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:52am
America is asleep when it comes to a lot of things. H5N1 being one of them.

I hate to be cynical but I can't wait to say  "I TOLD YOU SO" all those ppl that laugh at me when I mention BF . followed by me sticking my tounge out.

just kidding. i don't want the public to go thru a pandemic or pandemic scare.
-mark
When the going gets weird, the weird turns pro. -HST
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:07am

Albert
I am just wondering how you think this forum will change once the public begins to earnestly look for information...How hard will it be to manage at that point??
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:08am
It's only August and there were pandemic preparedness articles last week in the USA Today, Washington Post and the OC Register.   This time last year, nobody had even heard about it.  There is going to be a lot of awareness this winter.  Awareness in this case could equal slight panic.  Remember how you felt when you first learned about this threat?  A lot of people may have the same realization.
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:10am
I have said before, wether it mutates or not, when it arrives here (X marks the spot) people will take notice and start to panic.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:16am
Mary, the forum will change because our internet presence is expanding rapidly.  When people begin to research this winter, they will most likely find us before a lot of other sites.  We want them ALL to come here first.  Last winter we had 200 - 300 showing logged in during a lot of the time.  We would expect to have around 3 x that many this winter.  It's difficult to predict with any significant certainty what will happen.  
 
Managing the forum will never be a problem no matter how big we get.  
 
 
Smile
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:19am

Albert,

That's good to hear....You must have four arms and two heads  LOL   I'm glad I am not in charge
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:52am
My focus this week is to finalize all last minute papework preps. Including medical records. I aim to have everything in one secure place -- easy to locate.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 5:07pm

Albert

  You mention that when it is here in the bird population it may never just go away...So does that leave us in a perpetual Indonesian type dilema....Wouldn't it burn itself out eventually, or are we looking at a whole new way of living...I haven't heard  anyonr's best guess on this ???
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 6:34pm

Mary, my guess is that it could be here for quite a few years.  Forever is a really long time and I am far from being an expert in this area. I have a habit of playing out scenarios ahead of time.  I'm sure that the think tanks somewhere have a model that indicates what we're heading for on an endemic scale.  At this current rate, we may see a few places that are culling like Indo in a few years from now. I don't want to scare anyone, but that is just the reality of it.  Of course, it could go back into hiding again for several years like what it did in 1997, but given how widespread it is now, it doesn't seem likely.  

 

Since we know that pandemics happen, we can also expect a future pandemic by another virus if not by H5N1.  There is a possibility that H5N1 will be present around us in birds while we go through the next pandemic.  Two things to watch.   

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 7:58pm

We can theorize all we want about the if and when but the reality is we just cannot predict the if and when.  Genetic/cellular mutations can be predictable given certain combinations and circumstances but plug those combinations in the real world and given that there are so many more variables at play that it becomes totally impossible to predict the when.  Nature has it’s own agenda and always will.  The only way to predict the when is to intentionally manufacture or genetically engineer this virus in the lab.  My guess it has already been done given all the governmental saber rattling and lets hope some nut case doesn't do it for grins and giggles.

 

Look at the history of H5N1 to date.  It has been afforded many opportunities in heavily populated areas to do its thing but it hasn't been able to make that magic mutation.   Yet this is no time to relax.  There is such a tunnel vision right now with H5N1 that I am also concerned that this inevitable pandemic blind sides us with a new presentation we are not looking for.

 

Right now we have been repeatedly warned that it's not if but when.  This is enough for me so I will prep and continue to educate myself for this when. 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:19pm
I'm not sure about false alarms.... this H5N1 is bad, no mistaking it.
 
Initial Symptoms
Most patients have initial symptoms of high fever (typically a temperature of more than 38°C) and an influenza-like illness with lower respiratory tract symptoms1 (Table 3). Upper respiratory tract symptoms are present only sometimes. Unlike patients with infections caused by avian influenza A (H7) viruses,23 patients with avian influenza A (H5N1) rarely have conjunctivitis. Diarrhea, vomiting, abdominal pain, pleuritic pain, and bleeding from the nose and gums have also been reported early in the course of illness in some patients.
14,15,16,24
 
Watery diarrhea without blood or inflammatory changes appears to be more common than in influenza due to human viruses25 and
 
may precede respiratory manifestations by up to one week.12
 
One report described two patients who presented with an encephalopathic illness and diarrhea without apparent respiratory symptoms.22
 
Clinical Course
 
Lower respiratory tract manifestations develop early in the course of illness and are usually found at presentation (Table 3).
 
In one series, dyspnea developed a median of 5 days after the onset of illness (range, 1 to 16).15 Respiratory distress, tachypnea, and inspiratory crackles are common.
 
Sputum production is variable and sometimes bloody.
 
Almost all patients have clinically apparent pneumonia; radiographic changes include diffuse, multifocal, or patchy infiltrates; interstitial infiltrates; and segmental or lobular consolidation with air bronchograms. Radiographic abnormalities were present a median of 7 days after the onset of fever in one study (range, 3 to 17).15
 
In Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam, multifocal consolidation involving at least two zones was the most common abnormality among patients at the time of admission. Pleural effusions are uncommon. Limited microbiologic data indicate that this process is a primary viral pneumonia, usually without bacterial suprainfection at the time of hospitalization.
 
Progression to respiratory failure has been associated with diffuse, bilateral, ground-glass infiltrates and manifestations of the acute respiratory distress syndrome (ARDS).
 
 In Thailand,15 the median time from the onset of illness to ARDS was 6 days (range, 4 to 13).
 
Multiorgan failure with signs of renal dysfunction and sometimes cardiac compromise, including cardiac dilatation and supraventricular tachyarrhythmias, has been common.14,15,16,24
 
Other complications have included ventilator-associated pneumonia, pulmonary hemorrhage, pneumothorax, pancytopenia, Reye's syndrome, and sepsis syndrome without documented bacteremia.
Back to Top
candice View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: July 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 8:50pm
I am on the fence as to whether the flu will be this year.  I will still prep but not as aggresively , 
 
The virus has a mind of its own.  I would urge those that can afford to prep to continue. 
 
I would rather be safe, plus if this virus does not  mutate wont the effect on the poultry industry hurt us and cause a food shortages.
 
I will stock
pile rice as it cheap and stores well and flour as I feel the price will rise, 
 
But I may just donate my spam
 
Albert have you read a article or anouncement that backs your feelings.
Dont mean to challenge you ,but what facts make you feel that way   
 
 
  
If you cant get in the front door try the side door then the back door.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 12 2006 at 10:22pm

Hi Candice, I don't have any information regarding this.  I also don't think that it's realistic to think that it will get better anytime soon.   It's just my opinion based on our current direction.  

Take care
 
Smile
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 4:43am

Albert,

I read your post and wanted to respond. I also believe H5NI will here this fall -- probably sooner than most expect. I base this on the fact that there is a sudden rush to test birds across the board -- including all states.  That is new. Social distancing (in my opinion) is already coming into play. There are less people out and about and those that are out are keeping their distance. They are very keen.

The whole notion of sending our kids back to school is a tricky one. We want to do what is in their best interest. I suspect that there will be a few false alarms -- especially with pneumonia/brochitis this fall/winter. I know I will be watching prudently. Our best instinct is our best defense -- especially in uncertain times. Pandemic Preparedness will be everywhere -- and we were told -- by the HHS to expect an increase in communication. I believe we are seeing a slight shift with information trickling down to the state levels now. This forum with it's faithful readers/posters will provide a great service to many. It is the best early warning system. It's like running a race and you get the first lap lead. In closing, a great question to ask yourself is, "how would I handle that if I couldn't get to a store?" That very question helped me to better prepare. Best Wishes, Argyll.

Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 7:30am
Hi Argyll.   Not only will we have an advanced warning of an AI outbreak, but we will also be spared false alarms.  The false alarms apply to everybody except for the educated pandemic flu specialists which are the members here on AFT. We've seen enough false alarms to know what they look like. 
 
In an AI outbreak, the symptoms would be relatively easy to spot.
First,  bloody sputum and bleeding around the gums.  Since we don't have diseases in the U.S. such as dengue or Ebola, the symptoms would not be confused with other diseases.  The other sign to watch for would be sudden and rapid deaths.  Assuming a lot of people don't seek medical attention until the last minute during the initial outbreak, we would probably see several deaths within the initial 24 - 48 hours.  If h5 mutates, there will be no mistaking it. 
 
Back to Top
Left Field View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: January 13 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 176
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Left Field Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 7:41am
I have preped since i joined this site.  My question is:  Countries like Turkey which was hard hit several months ago, Is the government there telling people to prepare for a pandemic, or have they stuck their head into the sand?
Back to Top
Bill 100 View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: May 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 524
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 8:44am
Originally posted by argyll argyll wrote:

My focus this week is to finalize all last minute papework preps. Including medical records. I aim to have everything in one secure place -- easy to locate.
 
I don't like to mention it, but have you thought about Dog Tags. People get seperated, they did with katrina. Hate to think of the worst case senerio, but there are still loved ones that have not been identified with katrina. I can see how kids would get a kick out of them, and they are cheap. I am not in the millitary anymore but I started wearing mine again.
A storm is coming !
Back to Top
Bill 100 View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: May 21 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 524
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill 100 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 8:53am

Bird flu likely to burst out again and again: study By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Correspondent

Tue Feb 21, 8:20 AM ET

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Bird flu is likely to cross over into people again and again if it ever even once acquires the ability to pass from human to human, experts predicted on Monday.

In theory, the virus only has to mutate once, in one person, to spark a pandemic. But the researchers argue that this could happen again and again, in several places around the world. They said even if the current pandemic killing birds passes, no one should breathe a sign of relief because the threat to people will not be gone.

"At best, a containment policy will only postpone the emergence of a pandemic, 'buying time' to prepare for its effects," Dr. Marc Lipsitch and colleagues from the Harvard School of Public Health and Dr. Carl Bergstrom from the University of Washington wrote.This is what officials hope they are doing now by culling birds when new outbreaks of H5N1 avian influenza occur. Public health experts agree the world is nowhere near ready to cope with a pandemic, but with a few years' preparations, some countries might be.

"We argue here that if a single introduction of a pandemic-capable strain is expected, multiple introductions should also be expected," Lipsitch's team wrote in the Public Library of Science Medicine, an online medical journal. "Each containment effort would likely be more difficult than the last as manpower, antiviral stockpiles, and other scarce resources become depleted," they wrote. H5N1 avian influenza has spread in chickens from Korea, across China, south into Indonesia, west across Turkey into western Europe and into the African continent.It has killed or forced the culling of more than 200 million birds in 32 countries and Hong Kong. While it does not easily infect people yet, it has sickened 170 people and killed 92, according to the latest World Health Organization figures.

No one can say if or when it would happen, but if H5N1 acquired the ability to pass easily from human to human, it could spark a pandemic that would kill millions or even tens of million within a few short months.

TEMPORARY CONTAINMENT

Some experts have published theoretical models showing that quick action with antiviral drugs, culling of birds and isolation of cases could quell such a pandemic before it started. But it would require a lot of luck, noted Lipsitch and colleagues -- not the least identifying those cases right away, before they spread the disease. Other experts have also noted this and also said there is no reason to believe that the mutations needed to make H5N1 a human disease would occur only once. Lipsitch's team ran some mathematical models based on known disease outbreaks.

Journal.pmed.0030135, suggests that an H5N1 pandemic could only be contained temporarily. And the longer the virus is around, the harder it will be to stop it from spreading. "Even if each successive containment effort is no more difficult than its predecessor, the chance of at least one failure increases with the number of introductions," they wrote. "Since the last pandemic nearly 40 years ago, we have observed dramatic changes in social and ecological factors thought to facilitate emergence of a pandemic-capable strain," the researchers wrote. "Surging human and bird populations in Asia have increased the frequency of contact between birds and humans -- and these changes might facilitate emergence by permitting 'crossing over' of a mutated avian influenza to humans, or by allowing human and avian influenzas to reassort in the same animal host."

A storm is coming !
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 1:56pm
from Mary R...
 
Albert
I am just wondering how you think this forum will change once the public begins to earnestly look for information...How hard will it be to manage at that point??
........................................................................................................................
 
posts will be much harder to censor.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 2:44pm
Anharra,  It won't be a problem.  We haven't locked, moved or edited one post in months.  We did however, recently remove a couple of threads.  A few bad (Negative and argumentative) threads can hurt our long term image as a forum.  Although I realized that it would upset some people, some small temporary sacrifices have to be made to ensure our growth over the long run.  When we have to make certain choices, there is no sense in waiting.      
 
 
Smile
 
 
Back to Top
cathypeanut View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: July 31 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 78
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cathypeanut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 7:50pm
I was thinking today about how much warning we will have when this thing hits.  We have all discussed that "we" should get a heads up early cause of our reading and being on top of this.  Today I thought that we will only have a short period of time heads up.  With all the non reporting coming from countried now of cases I believe this thing will explode when it happens.  We will not see one or two clusters, we will see 100.  At that point the horse will be out of the gate and headed down the home stretch. 
 
No country wants to be the one to say they have started a pandemic.  I think the best we can do is prepare and always be on top of it. 
I used to have more posts :-(
Back to Top
rickstooker View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member
Avatar

Joined: February 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 5
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rickstooker Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 8:05pm
Recent events in Southeast Asia have underscored the resiliency of the H5N1 virus.

Recently "clean" Vietnam, Thailand, Laos and Cambodia have all had recent
outbreaks of HPAI. The villain appears to be migratory water fowl.

It appears that millions of chickens died in vain. Because after getting their domestic fowl clear of the disease, the virus continued to lurk inside
the intestines of wild birds, just waiting for the right season to reappear.

I'm not so sure though that H5N1 arrival in US wild birds will changes us
much beyond the initial news -- some people in US do keep backyard
chickens but the vast majority are in protected environments -- factory
farms.

A human case in the US would cause a real panic, of course, but current
virus is unlikely to do that.

However, it's quite true that the virus can become contagious over and
over again. Any time, any place.

If WHO fails to contain it one time, that's when we must look out.
Richard Stooker

How to Protect Yourself and Your Family From Bird Flu
avian flu protection
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2006 at 8:15pm
Bill 100,
 
Thanks for the tip on the dog tags. I think it is important to bring everything to the table and talk about it. That way when it happens, it won't be as scary for people. Dog tags could be very useful ... Argyll.
 
Forgot to mention one little bit: look for patterns, that will be the tell tale sign the winds are changing.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 3:17am
Originally posted by argyll argyll wrote:

 
Forgot to mention one little bit: look for patterns, that will be the tell tale sign the winds are changing.


Interesting! What should we be looking for Argyll?
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 4:40am
Standingfirm,
 
Thanks for your reponse. My two cents would be a shift in information. But, we should definitely check with Albert, as he is the administrator of this site. He might be able to share a wealth of information beyond what I have mentioned. Regards, Argyll.
Back to Top
Scotty View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group


Joined: March 06 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 846
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scotty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 7:15am
H5N1 exists and will continue to exist. It will also continue to mutate. Each new mutation has the potential to cause a human pandemic either directly or by combining with a human flu virus. Given an infinite amount of time, an almost infinite number of mutations and huge pool of human targets with no immunity to this new virus this saga can only end one way.

Mathematical analysis of the historic data on flu pandemics predicted that the next flu pandemic would happen at some time between 1996 and 2019.

The weakness of relying on the maths is that it can only process known data. The strength of relying on the maths is that the numbers have no hidden agenda.

Note that there is little or no significance in the fact that the centre of this chronological target is June 2007.

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 7:55am
I think the pattern shift has already begun.  In July our local papers had a BF flier insert 2 times at 2 week intervals.  Last weekend our Sunday paper had a front page artlcle on BF with a major shift towards being prepared on many different fronts with a focus on hospitals this time.  Previous artcles were generic BF/pandemic hsitory lessons.   This new article was very indepth and even had an interview with US Dept. of Health and Human Services Assistant Secretary for Health John Agwunobi who is very involved with the logistics and palnning for a future pandemic.  Unfortuantely I found this article too late to post a link it is now archived and I'm too cheap to pay the3 bucks for access to the articles.  It was front page on the August 6th Daily Herald.   www.dailyherald .com.  I feel we are slowly and deliberatley being nudged along by the media to get us accustomed to the concept of this pandemic occuring so there will be less tendency for panic if and when.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 8:26am
Cruiser,
 
Sounds like your city is really on the ball. Mine is not that mainstream with AI yet. Inserts -- that is one really good way to reach people. The health departments are now holding meetings ( at my last count 4 states), but not everyone has the time to attend. You are on-target a gentle nudge is taking place, and I am pleased with that. People will become more aware and start to prepare.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 8:28am
I was able to get the article there was a survey in the paper that I was unable to bring.
 

 

Are hospitals ready for a flu pandemic?

Editor's note: This is another in an occasional series exploring how the suburbs and state are preparing for the possibility of a deadly flu pandemic.

BY MARNI PYKE and DAVE ORRICK
Daily Herald Staff Writers
Posted Sunday, August 06, 2006

A Daily Herald survey of suburban hospitals shows many aren't fully prepared for a potentially deadly flu pandemic - a situation that reflects a national trend.

Seventeen medical centers were surveyed on their readiness for a global epidemic in the wake of concerns about avian flu. Another seven hospitals declined to take part in the study, which was based on recommendations by the federal government.

Results for the 17 medical centers that did participate, indicated that although some were well on the way to preparedness, others lagged behind.

The survey found shortfalls in critical areas.

• More than 40 percent of hospitals did not have complete plans for allocating life-saving medical resources to patients in the event of a pandemic.

• Nearly 60 percent hadn't conducted an avian-flu-specific drill.

• At total of 18 percent answered yes to all the survey questions.

"I think if anything, your survey shows we better hope there isn't a pandemic in the near future because the system isn't ready," said Jeffrey Levi, executive director of the Trust for America's Health, a nonprofit national organization that focuses on epidemic prevention.

However, other experts gave suburban hospitals higher grades, given the state of readiness nationwide and the exorbitant costs involved.

Right now, avian influenza is not a pandemic. But international scientists are cautiously tracking the spread of the H5N1 strain of bird flu.

More than 100 people, mostly in Asia and Africa, have died as a result of contact with infected birds, according to the World Health Organization. The virus has left an estimated 150 million birds dead.

Avian flu doesn't easily transmit between humans. The fear is if H5N1 mutates to a virus that spreads quickly from person to person, millions could die worldwide.

That's why health experts say it's essential hospitals be prepared for the worst.

"Pandemics have occurred many times in the past. They do occur and will occur in the future," said Dr. John Agwunobi, assistant secretary of health with the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. "Therefore it is important that every part of the world prepare for and stay prepared for a pandemic."

Yet, "No matter how much preparation we do, it will be a very bad situation," Levi said.

No sense of urgency

Imagine a deadly disease spreading rapidly through the metropolitan area, infecting hundreds and killing 44 people, including two nurses and a doctor, within five months.

It sounds like a movie of the week, but it played out for real in early 2003 when severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, made a deadly appearance in Toronto.

Brought to Canada by a woman returning from Hong Kong in February 2003, the virus wasn't identified for weeks. By that time, many medical workers had fallen sick after caring for SARS patients.

"I think SARS was a wake-up call for many," Agwunobi said.

"SARS was global, so like a pandemic it threatened more than one nation. The other thing that made it unique was that it really was a hospital-based infection. It prompted greater attention to infection control in hospitals."

Since 2003, 134 people have died as a result of coming in contact with the H5N1 virus, according to the WHO. The latest fatality occurred July 24 in Thailand, when a 17-year-old man died 14 days after burying chicken carcasses.

Despite the grim statistics, pandemic expert Dr. Eric Toner fears some hospitals are asleep at the switch.

"Most hospitals haven't taken avian flu seriously. Most have not really drilled on it," said Toner, a senior associate with the Center for Biosecurity. The center, based at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center, focuses on societal effects of infections and diseases.

"Almost no hospitals have the necessary resources to prepare for a pandemic," he said.

By the numbers

The Daily Herald's one-page questionnaire was based on a lengthy checklist issued early this year by the federal government. The analysis of the survey was conducted using data collected in May, June and July.

Among the hospitals that participated in the study, only 41 percent had conducted an avian flu-specific drill.

About 47 percent reported carrying out a related exercise or indicated that they intended to do so in the future.

Agwunobi recommended every hospital conduct a drill.

"The reason we conduct exercises is not to show what works," he said. "Exercises should be geared to find out at what point the system breaks down."

Many medical centers - 88 percent - had created plans to prioritize workers and offer them medications to lessen the likelihood of infection.

The study also showed more than 90 percent of hospitals had named an influenza preparedness coordinator.

However, just 67 percent of medical centers had set a threshold for how many avian flu cases it would take to activate emergency plans.

And, only 56 percent had tackled tough ethical issues, such as how to ration resources if hospitals are swamped with influenza patients.

Northwest Community Hospital is at a high level of preparedness, but Emergency Response Coordinator Mary Casey-Lockyer noted the Arlington Heights-based facility is still fine-tuning issues such as rationing ventilators - a situation she said reflects what's happening nationwide.

"We don't have very many ventilators in the country," she said. "It's a question of how we disperse them and how we triage patients - who gets a ventilator and who doesn't."

One of the many challenges medical centers face as they prepare is the lack of health-care workers, said Darlene Gallagher, infection control manager at Adventist GlenOaks Hospital in Glendale Heights.

"There's a shortage of nurses, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, radiologists," she said. "What happens when they get sick? You can have the greatest plan on the books but you have to have the people."

The saving grace, Gallagher noted, is that agencies such as the Centers for Disease Control and the World Health Organization are closely monitoring the spread of H5N1.

"We will know when the virus changes to become a pandemic. It's not something where tomorrow it would be in the Northwest suburbs," she said.

Overall, the Center for Biosecurity's Toner was impressed by the survey results.

"I think the 41 percent who have done an avian-specific drill is higher than the national average," he said.

But Toner pointed out answering "yes" doesn't necessarily indicate how thorough is the planning.

"The devil's in the details," he said.

The Daily Herald consulted with experts familiar with pandemic planning to make sure the study was informed, fair and filled with questions the public should know.

Still, seven hospitals either refused to participate or submitted a generic statement.

Centegra Health System, which runs two hospitals in McHenry County, was one such organization.

"We just don't feel that the survey is a fair indicator of our level of preparedness," said Melissa Matusek, Centegra spokeswoman.

Health-care experts contend that the more information made public about a potential pandemic, the better.

"No matter how much preparation we do, this is going to be a very bad situation," Levi said. "A public that has been warned will be much more accepting."

Toner agreed. "The public needs to know this information," he said.

'Mass confusion'

Across the country, health-care leaders are worried about inadequate funding and insufficient guidance for hospitals in the event of an influenza-type pandemic.

"Hospitals have the biggest burden to address, and it's going to take far more resources than the government is willing to put on the table," Levi said.

The Center for Biosecurity estimates it will cost $5 billion to get hospitals across the country "minimally" prepared for a severe flu pandemic.

Being truly ready goes beyond drills and protocols, Toner said.

"A lot of being prepared involves stockpiling things such as masks, gowns and gloves," he said. "That's very expensive and few hospitals have resources to put away serious supplies. It also involves stockpiling medications."

Condell Medical Center in Libertyville is one hospital in the midst of ordering negative-pressure tents to deal with a surge in capacity. These high-tech tents equipped with ventilation systems could be draped over a patient's bed and filter out contaminants before air is released in the open.

"We have 11 negative-pressure rooms, but if you have 30 or 40 patients, we wouldn't have enough," said nurse Emily Bergman, Condell's Infection Prevention and Control Program coordinator. One tent alone could cost up to $6,000.

Another dilemma is a lack of detailed guidance from federal or state agencies, some experts contend.

"You will find once a hospital gets its teeth into this issue, then it starts churning out more questions," said Dr. Charles Baum, vice president for health affairs at Alexian Brothers Hospital Network.

As an example of the "mass confusion" being experienced by hospitals, Baum cites debate over flu vaccines. In the event of a pandemic where vaccines are mandatory, it's unclear who carries the insurance liability if someone falls sick as a result.

"Nationally, no one is stepping forward and saying, 'We'll relieve you of your liability for vaccination,'æ" Baum said.

Agwunobi said government agencies are issuing guidelines on a regular basis but pandemic readiness is a broad field and all the questions can't be answered at once.

Another uncertainty is paying for the uninsured.

"We have a large number of uninsured people, and we want them to come and get care," Levi said. "If hospitals take care of these individuals, the government needs to step forward and say costs will be covered. We want hospitals to be financially viable at the end of the pandemic."

Toner acknowledged that the federal government can't handle the financial burden alone. "It's (funding) got to come from a variety of sources, he said.

Agwunobi said Congress already has given out $325 million for hospital preparedness and another $250 million is on the way.

"States, local governments, the federal government - we should all be involved in a partnership to strengthen the system," he said.

Agwunobi avoided criticizing hospitals that refused to participate in the Daily Herald's study.

He said the checklist is voluntary and each hospital is unique. "The key is going to be having hospitals working closely with each other."

Overall, the state is in good shape, said Jay Bogdan, deputy director of the Illinois Department of Public Health's Office of Preparedness and Response.

"We are more prepared today than we were five years ago," he said, "and we continue to get more prepared."

Toner also saw signs for optimism. "Hospitals are beginning to get the message," he said. "Even if they're not doing what we think is necessary, they are drawing up plans and doing drills and that's at least a step in the right direction."

Daily Herald staff contributed to this report.

More coverage

How to handle pandemic must evolve with science, expert says

SARS took toll on Canada

 

Back to Top
candice View Drop Down
Adviser Group
Adviser Group
Avatar

Joined: July 17 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 63
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote candice Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 11:10am
It appears their is confusion as to when the virus will hit, 
iDid we miss it , will it do a sars and just disappear,
 Will it only effect the birds , 
 Will it only cause a few hundred deaths a years , 
 
Will terrorist tamper with the virus and delibertly mix virus
 
Will we get a vaccine in time .
 
Will it come next month with the migrating birds.
 
Will it mutate to a milder virus .
 
Does it mean we stop prepping , telling people to prep,  change your prepping style.
 
 
I am still prepping ,  but more carefully ,  I will buy can foods rice and flour and sugar ,  way more seeds. 
 
I wont packs stuff with less than a year self life and  things I hate.  Spam canned meat in general . MY beleif is that it will hit but not til winter if not next spring.   But who am I to tell you ,
 
Pray and do what you think is in the best interest of your family and God and your family will support  you .
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
If you cant get in the front door try the side door then the back door.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 14 2006 at 12:28pm

Did the chickens get three waves?

Did it become less virulent for them as it became more infectious?

If not, why should these things be the case for us?

Beth

Back to Top
Hand-washer View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: April 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 66
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hand-washer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2006 at 2:14pm
Albert, you wrote:

   "For whatever it's worth, things could change for everybody this winter and probably for quite awhile to come. There might not be a pandemic this winter, ..."

and

   "We may see many false alarms this winter (starting in 30 - 45 days)."

Albert, you seem to have very specific information.   Then you said:

   "Managing the forum will never be a problem no matter how big we get."

So, first, if there is not a pandemic this winter, what is the big change?

Next, what do you expect specifically in 30 - 45 days?

and finally, can you please add some detail to your comment about being able to manage the forum no matter how big it gets.

Thanks.
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 15 2006 at 6:00pm
Good question about Chicken Waves Beth.
 
There have probably been controlled studies to see if there were waves. Out side the lab the birds may have been culled before a trend could be observed.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 6:31am

Hi hand- washer,

 

... if there is not a pandemic this winter, what is the big change?

There may very well be a pandemic this winter. My point was that whether there is a pandemic or not, things are going to change just by virtue of h5n1 being present in birds. 
Like what they said in the movie the Perfect Storm, “It aint going to let us out”.  

 

Us Americans might panic a little more than the rest of the world, primarily because we’re educated in so many more areas. In this case, knowledge and understanding equals fear.  The first confirmed outbreak could set off a chain reaction of events.  The sight of seeing crews in protective gear cleaning up an outbreak won’t sit well with the U.S. citizens

Back to Top
Hand-washer View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: April 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 66
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hand-washer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 6:38am
Hi Albert,
Thanks for your reply.    Can you elaborate on the 30 - 45 days?    If you cannot, please just say so - we'll understand.

Also, I think we must stress that knowledge and understanding do not always have to equal fear -- knowledge and understanding should provide this forum population with strength and information and togetherness and courage to help others.    Folks here are pretty smart; they will know what to do when the first confirmed outbreak is made known, and I would hope they react with the knowledge gained from this forum and other sources to make the best of a tough situation.   Many will survive this wicked virus, and we each should be planning now to be survivors.

HW
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:08am
Hand-washer, the people on this forum wouldn't experience fear like many others would.  The understanding process is something that people have to deal with slowly, and it takes time.  The people here have already adjusted. 
 
Dealing with the reality of what an h5n1 pandemic could do might be a tough a hurdle for people to cross in a very short period of time.  
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:10am

.... what do you expect specifically in 30 - 45 days?

 

This all depends.  But rest assured, whatever happens, it will most likely get progressively worse as the winter months continue.  

 

I suspect that there will be false alarms regarding AI human outbreaks during this flu season.      

 

Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:12am
Originally posted by Albert Albert wrote:

Dealing with the reality of what an h5n1 pandemic could do might be a tough a hurdle for people to cross is a very short period of time.  
 
 


...and that will lead to panic. I cannot imagine trying to adjust to this rapidly. Do we have a moral imperative to help others get informed or was this all for our own benefit? I do not want to see people panic.
Back to Top
Hand-washer View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: April 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 66
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hand-washer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:17am
Interesting expectation, Albert.   Does anybody else here anticipate the same thing -- false alarms regarding AI human outbreaks during this flu season?   

And then the next question -- if there are false alarms, will the impact be similar to reality?   That is, do you expect to see people racing to stockpile food/water/medical supplies/etc. and do you think there will be more sheltering in place to avoid virus-sharing in public places?   Would that be a good means for people to avoid even seasonal flu?   I'm interested to know what others here think about the false alarms.
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:22am
One bird outbreak in the U.S. and all of your family and friends will become believers very quickly.  Although there might not be any human deaths for awhile, we still wouldn't want anyone to say any "I told you sos".
 
Since the majority of America is unaware of h5n1,  people will  not know how to properly handle dead birds, or that they should not handle them at all.  Children playing at the beach come across a flock of dead birds? 
 
It's easy to get blindsided in every direction with this thing.   As we are looking for a pandemic, other events could evolve. 
 
 
 
 
 
Back to Top
Albert View Drop Down
Admin
Admin


Joined: April 24 2006
Status: Offline
Points: 47746
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Albert Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:24am
Hand-washer, when you became aware, did you buy extra supplies?  I'm sure a lot of people would do the same thing.   Stores may get hit hard, but  until a pandemic actually begins, deliveries would continue so it might not be too bad. 
 
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest Group
Guest Group
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:26am
Hand-washer: All three of my young adults are not kept up to date with the news coming out. All three woke up not feeling well. One has swollen glands etc. My first thought was AHHHHHH! Then I calmed down. I believe there will be many false alarms. We are actively looking for this to occur and every sneeze and sniffle will be viewed as suspect. This is my personal challenge area, my personal panic button, and I must remind myself to calm down. A little knowledge can be dangerous and I am not a great diagnostician.

Maybe a symptomology thread would be helpful to the more panic prone in this area...just a thought...we all have different strengths and weaknesses.
Back to Top
Hand-washer View Drop Down
Valued Member
Valued Member


Joined: April 25 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 66
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hand-washer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 16 2006 at 7:39am
It seems that panic is not productive, whether the real thing or false alarm, so wise and informed forum members can set the example for family and friends and co-workers that getting busy and doing something about their own needs can replace panic and fear.    If each of us helps just a few others, a community will benefit.   People who won't listen to warnings now may be ready for information during winter's seasonal flu.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  12>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down