Mask hoarding

CRS, DrPH wrote: interwebber wrote: I refuse to let this die. I have told my daughter since she was 3 years old... If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem... Stop the lies about masks not being effective. All you are doing is undermining public confidence in the government and so called "experts"!!! https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-blasts-feds-medical-masks-coronavirus Sorry, Fox News doesn't count.  These are the problems:  a) people have hoarded surgical masks for personal use, this is costing lives in the clinical setting that I work in (hospital infection control).  Civilians have NO need for N95 masks for this outbreak unless they are personally caring for a sick relative up close.  b) if folks want to wear a mask for prophylatic reasons, I'm OK with that.  However, all you need in public is a bandana or simple dust control hobby mask.  These will catch the droplets released during sneezing and coughing.  c) most transmittal of SARS-CoV2 is from personal contamination of doorknobs, toilet seats etc. with either mucous secretions (saliva, tears) or fecal matter.  SARS-CoV2 is a cold virus, and it transmits exactly like the common cold.  Do you wear a mask all during cold & flu season?  Didn't think so.  People can make their own choices, but I think the evidence of civilian mask use is pretty slender.

Glad you responded. Sorry Fox news offends you. Did you even watch the clip? I think Tucker Carlson is one of the most independent folks out there calling the Trump administration to task where appropriate. The mask problem is with governments and hospitals not preparing appropriately. It's one thing to say we weren't prepared and we need the protection for those on the frontlines. It's an entirely different thing to say masks aren't effective in preventing spread of the virus and possibly dangerous to wear them. This is absurd. History will show who was right and who was wrong during the global pandemic of 2020... If everyone was wearing masks how many more lives would we have saved? How much less stress would have been placed on our health workers and hospitals? Glad you are ok with prophylactic wearing of masks given the asymptomatic spread we have known about for months. Bandanas may be all we have at the moment, but it is not ideal. It didn't have to be this way...

Throwing my opinion out there. I do believe wearing a mask will protect you. I believe they have only been saying it won't is because they don't want everyone buying them because hospitals are unprepared. The Doctor, can't remember her name, younger blonde give updates and opinions on news every night, tonight said wearing a mask is effective, N-95, the best,  surgical next, the home made ones are basically useless because they trap germs in the layers. Even Trump said today in his daily address to  the USA that they may soon have everyone wearing masks when they go out. It's under consideration. 

I refuse to let this die. I have told my daughter since she was 3 years old... If you're not part of the solution then you're part of the problem... Stop the lies about masks not being effective. All you are doing is undermining public confidence in the government and so called "experts"!!!

https://www.foxnews.com/media/tucker-carlson-blasts-feds-medical-masks-coronavirus

CRS, DrPH wrote: Lakeman5 wrote: I disagree. We could solve both those problems easier than we can all stay home. First-make enough masks. Second - teach people to wear them. Think that cant be done: singapore and tai wan did it and they have the best outcomes so far. Let me repeat that. Singapore and tai wan both have the best outcomes and both of them have the general public wearing masks. Look at pictures and you will see them wearing masks. Some of them are just surgical masks but its still working.  Both Singapore and China had very rigid social distancing and quarantine operations, enforced by police and military.   Wearing masks had nothing to do with their level of control.   Masks are useless outdoors.  Sorry.   The only virus I know of that has wind-borne transmission is foot & mouth disease with cattle.   This is me (no name for obvious reasons).

I was in the US Navy on nuclear submarines rad-con worker level II trained and certified. I have worn double sets of anti-c's and breathing protection working in high radiological contamination areas and then doffed all of these to prevent the spread of contamination of radioactive materials from contaminated airborne areas to clean decontamination zones including myself and tools I used in the zone. Don't buy into the misinformation. Masks for everyone is the answer once they are readily available to everyone. The lie is that they are essential to health professionals but they do nothing for the average citizen because they are soooo hard to wear. I could teach you in 30 seconds how to wear a surgical mask properly. Gimme a break. Good luck!!

socalmom wrote: My cousin who just started her chemo shared this picture of her nurse (two days ago, in Covidfornia).

Ok, we need more then a Thanks button - this on is a slap self on forhead or OMG or... Wow...just holy cow WOW!!!

Mask wearing works for upper resiratory illnesses. Not alone and not only for trained professionals. They also help with covid19. Im no expert but here is a lengthy article from someone who is: https://sarahwestall.com/how-to-stop-coronavirus-and-save-the-economy/ No doubt you will claim he is not an expert. Regardless, masks work which is why healthcare professionals wear them. Cant get much more obvious than that. It does not matter if covid is fecal/oral, aerosal, droplets, or surface caught. The mask covers your nose and mouth which reduces stuff from getting into your nose and mouth. Maybe you will be swayed and maybe not. It doesnt really matter to me. To anyone else: if you have masks you can help health care workers by donating them or you can help yourself by wearing them because they work.

Lakeman5 wrote: I disagree. We could solve both those problems easier than we can all stay home. First-make enough masks. Second - teach people to wear them. Think that cant be done: singapore and tai wan did it and they have the best outcomes so far. Let me repeat that. Singapore and tai wan both have the best outcomes and both of them have the general public wearing masks. Look at pictures and you will see them wearing masks. Some of them are just surgical masks but its still working.

Both Singapore and China had very rigid social distancing and quarantine operations, enforced by police and military.   Wearing masks had nothing to do with their level of control.  

Masks are useless outdoors.  Sorry.   The only virus I know of that has wind-borne transmission is foot & mouth disease with cattle.  

This is me (no name for obvious reasons).

Absolutely agree with what you said about using the mask correctly Chuck.  I was fully trained for NBC situations and at a later date for the use of PPE in emergency surgical events.  I see people using them incorrectly on television and cringe at their ignorance.  However, I am not in the position to do anything about changing the situation.  I suspect people would be far more likely to listen to you on such matters.  Which is why I recommend this site.

Touchoftheblues wrote: https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucdsclnk?sl=71QSCI20292041 This is a link to a US government auction site that was selling N95 masks to the highest bidder on February 29th.  Do I really need to feel guilty that I stocked up well before then?

Has anyone looked at this since it's gone back up for viewing?  Am I missing something???  $50,300 divided by 40 cases = $1257.50/case.  It says 8 boxes (of 20 masks/box) so that's $157.19/box ?!?!?!?!  Did I miss a step? At that point in time they were still available if you looked...?

PARTICULATE RESPIRATORS: (40 CASES)

It really doesnt matter if mask wearing protects healthy people from sick mask wearers or if it protects healthy mask wearers from sick people or if it just keeps you from touching your face. Mask wearing works. Thats why all the first responders and hospital staff want to wear masks. If we all wore masks it would be easier than wide spread sipping and it would work. 

interwebber wrote: Newbie1A wrote: https://nationalpost.com/opinion/laura-tennant-consumers-didnt-cause-the-mask-shortage-governments-did Yes this. Thank you.

I'm not saying that we did.  Clearly, government policy was key to the shortage.  However, masks are absolutely WORTHLESS for preventing illness in the way that is shown (wearing them on subways, in public, out in the open air etc.).    Masks are designed to protect health care workers from active cases, and to isolate secretions from active cases from contaminating the environment.  

I've read about folks hoarding this valuable PPE, while hospitals are going without.  Folks really should read the literature about PPE and other aspects about prepping, there is far too much "magical thinking" on sites such as this.  

• Unlike NIOSH-approved N95s, facemasks are loose-fitting and provide only barrier protection against droplets, including large respiratory particles. No fit testing or seal check is necessary with facemasks. Most facemasks do not effectively filter small particles from the air and do not prevent leakage around the edge of the mask when the user inhales.
• The role of facemasks is for patient source control, to prevent contamination of the surrounding area when a person coughs or sneezes.  Patients with confirmed or suspected COVID-19 should wear a facemask until they are isolated in a hospital or at home. The patient does not need to wear a facemask while isolated.
• https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/hcp/respirator-use-faq.html
• 
  

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/laura-tennant-consumers-didnt-cause-the-mask-shortage-governments-did

AndyP wrote: I wonder if the HVAC filters they sell at Home Depot could be cut and turned into masks. I bought a couple of the high level ones that say they restrict bacteria and viruses.

Nope.  I have a friend with GE Healthcare, they have looked at it.  He said: 

I've got people asking me if they can make N95 equivalent masks out of furnace filters.  "So I looked it up.  I see so-called anti-viral furnace filters spec'd down to 0.3 microns.  The pores of an N95 filter are around 3 microns, but they work for the near-field droplets and allow people to breath.  I told the questioner that the furnace filters have a lot of pleats and surface area, and told them that the face filter made from it would have to be huge to allow enough air for breathing and the weight would be taxing unless they incorporated a blower and built themselves a portable HazMat suit.  I suppose they could find a cheaper filter that worked at 2-3 microns and make that work, but quality control of pore size is absolutely critical.  I'm willing to bet that marketing 0.3 microns is more like a best figure with a lot of greater exceptions." 

I wonder if the HVAC filters they sell at Home Depot could be cut and turned into masks. I bought a couple of the high level ones that say they restrict bacteria and viruses. 

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Cover up?

I don't think so.  I think when this is over  the states and health care industry will see the wisdom in preparedness, at least for a while.  I would not be surprised if the excess goes into some sort of strategic state stockpile.

https://gsaauctions.gov/gsaauctions/aucdsclnk?sl=71QSCI20292041

This is a link to a US government auction site that was selling N95 masks to the highest bidder on February 29th.  Do I really need to feel guilty that I stocked up well before then?

Dang Lakeman give it a rest.  No one is coming to take you stuff!  Everyone's definition is different but no argument on this stuff, please.

Lakeman5 wrote: Technophobe wrote: 'And we are not hoarders.  Panic buying is hoarding.   What we did iwas get ready.  We prepped.  We did not strip supermarket shelves.  We did not need to. I might be panicking, but I don't have to shop with it. this term hoarder has been thrown around so much. Not by you of course. It made me stop to think about what it actually means. Definitionally it just means to collect a lot. Preparing is definitely not hoarding. I think to be accurate hoarding must include the idea that the collecting deprives others. So buying 1 percent of the pasta on a full shelf would not be hoarding but buying the last 20 boxes could be. But if you got the last two boxes that you actually needed just because you were smarter or luckier than someone else is probably not hoarding either.  Nor would it be hoarding if you saved your money and bought two months worth if plentiful food while someone else spent their money on video games and could only afford one weeks worth of food. A case could be made that if you saved a lot of money and were never generous with your money that could be hoarding.

Hoarding is accumulating more than is needed for personal use.  In the past, this was defined as "war profiteering" and was punishable by death. 

Read this about the government and masks:  https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/n95-mask-key-fighting-corona-virus—-us-has-stockpiled-only-1-quantity-needed-135722

You are right that greedy profit hoarding investors in for profit hospitals would not stock pile enough masks. Why didnt the not fir profit hospitals stockpile enough?  Our gov stockpiled masks. A measly small number that was determined by greedy hoarding bureaucrats. Other countries have different systems and only hong kong had enough. I chalk this up to their experience with sars and the fact that they dont wrongly believe masks are ineffective for the masses. They actually require people going into public places to wear masks. 

What you say is correct but pull yourself up by your boot straps, we are in a WAR that we were never going to be prepared for especially after the last two administrations.  Quit crying about what people should have done, who made money it does not matter if you have masks to give, then give, if not quit worrying about it.  What you don't rise above will push you from behind!

Lakeman5 wrote: I was inspired by this thread to call my local hospital to see if I could donate my n95s. The woman put me on hold to go check. When she came back she was very unenthusiastic but said they would take them. She later revealed that no one knew what the policy was and they were just going to put them on a shelf to see what mught happen.  Well I have rwo kids who mught be high risk (i cant figure out uf they are or not - they are type 1). So Im gonna hold on to these and call the hospital back after things tick up here.  (Sorry about the spelling but when i type on this site I cant see what Im typing)

Sorry about that response, you did the right thing.   If you go online, you may find hospitals that will accept what you have through the mail (I think some nurses are organizing mask and PPE drives in NYC), but no sense throwing them away on facilities that don't understand the need yet.

I offered my services to our local (small, rural) hospital and got a polite "Thank you, we'll call you if we need you" letter.  Idiots, you need me NOW but don't realize it!!  I'll wait until they are loaded up with worried-well and active cases, and then I'll think about it. 

This kind of short-sighted thinking is how we got into this jam....back in the H5N1 days, public health and hospitals were much more on their toes about pandemic preparedness.  They got lazy.  

Save your masks & PPE until you KNOW, for a fact, that they are going to a good home.  We likely won't need them ourselves, but you never know, since a family member may become ill.  That ill person needs the mask.