Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk |
Real facts: Which COVID19 treatments work |
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Rootmeister
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:03am |
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"In the field of molecular modeling, docking is a method which predicts the preferred orientation of one molecule to a second when bound to each other to form a stable complex." I have docked several ligands (drugs) which are touted to work as "cure" or "treatment" of the Covid-19 to couple of the proteins related to covid-19. Anyone can verify these results I present. I can share the docking parameters as well if one needs them. Preparation of the ligands and proteins is done according to the art. If you want me to run simulations for particular compound to these proteins, just ask and I'll do it and post the results here. I am willing to run the simulations to other proteins as well if you will provide the information needed (PDBid and the site of binding. If not, I'll just do blind docking for the prepared protein). For the results, more negative Gibbs free energy, the merrier binding and efficacy of the drugs. Results ranging from -7 kcal/mol to -15 kcal/mol are relevant. F.ex. -15 kcal/mol is highly active (and probably quite selective as well). Anything from -6.9 to 0 kcal/mol can be discarded. They might work for something else though. From this info you can deduce yourself what drug/ligand works and what not (check the ADME(t)) - at least to that particular protein. Unfortunately I cannot dock (colloidal) silver... Which I do make and ingest myself (for other reasons). So please, stop the gossiping and guessing. PDBid: 6LU7 (COVID-19 main protease): Allicin: -3.4 kcal/mol Alliin: -4.3 kcal/mol Azhitromycin: -6.4 kcal/mol Chloroquine: -6.1 kcal/mol Curcumin: -6.8 kcal/mol GS-441524: -6.5 kcal/mol Hydrogen peroxide: -2.9 kcal/mol (it could work, if it destroys the protein by oxidation!) Hydroxychloroquine: -5.8 kcal/mol Oseltamivir: -6.3 kcal/mol Ricinoleic_acid: -4.4 kcal/mol Scopolamine: -7.2 kcal/mol Sulforaphane: -3.7 kcal/mol Vitamin-C: -5.2 kcal/mol (if it works, it works by massive dosages generating hydrogen peroxide) (Based on these results, scopolamine binds the most tightly to the main protease. It doesn't mean that it renders the protein inactive though! Curcumin seems to work as well but it requires to consume black pepper (piperine) as well!. PDBid: 6VSB (2019-nCoV spike glycoprotein): Allicin: -4.0 kcal/mol Alliin: -4.7 kcal/mol Azhitromycin: -7.7 kcal/mol Chloroquine: -6.1 kcal/mol Curcumin: -7.6 kcal/mol GS-441524: -7.1 kcal/mol Hydrogen peroxide: -3.4 kcal/mol (it could work, if it destroys the protein by oxidation!) Hydroxychloroquine: -6.4 kcal/mol Oseltamivir: -6.5 kcal/mol Ricinoleic_acid: -5.6 kcal/mol Scopolamine: -7.3 kcal/mol Sulforaphane: -4.1 kcal/mol Vitamin-C: -5.6 kcal/mol (if it works, it works by massive dosages generating hydrogen peroxide) Based on these results, azhitromycin binds the best to the spike glycoprotein with curcumin almost on par. Hydroxychoroquine isn't nearly as effective. As you see, for example curcumin has comparable affinities to synthesized drugs for the main protease and spike glycoprotein. And this is probably the reason India does not have so much of covid-19 cases due to the curry they eat. And the offtopic part: Does someone know what is the antibody for this particular covid strain? I'm suspecting the ongoing tests can't discriminate between this covid from some other (harmless) coronavirus. Hence so much positives. If you have the info, please forward the DOI to the article or link to the protein... I hope someone pins this thread or moves it to r/Coronavirus, otherwise it's like pearls before swine... My account is too fresh to post anything to there. Anyway, I say: fuck the governments and official medical agencies and so called "doctors" who claim this and that works without publishing any hard facts to the public. Everybody should do their own research and not allow lead themselves stray due to laziness to do some due diligence checking. And never trust the mass media. I have the opinion the virus is most definitely lab made. There are no credible peer reviewed articles stating otherwise and I have read them all. The best one, full of crap when you examine it thoroghly (dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9) - which every major politically inclined newspaper at least in Finland referred to - just poses some possibilities it could have evolved in nature - that's all. Instead there are loads of articles describing artificial mutations done for it. (f.ex one from 2008 describing how the the HIV-inserts are introduced to bind to ACE2-receptors. Such as https://jvi.asm.org/content/jvi/82/4/1899.full.pdf). They are fully disregarded and discredited. I wonder why? To cause massive panic and financial crisis apparently. "It isn't only art that's incompatible with happiness; it's also science. Science is dangerous; we have to keep it most carefully chained and muzzled.... You've had no scientific training, so you can't judge. I was a pretty good physicist in my time. Too good–good enough to realize that all our science is just a cookery book, with an orthodox theory of cooking that nobody's allowed to question, and a list of recipes that mustn't be added to except by special permission from the head cook. I'm the head cook now. But I was an inquisitive young scullion once. I started doing a bit of cooking on my own. Unorthodox cooking, illicit cooking. A bit of real science, in fact." -A.H |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Sorry Rootmeister, my sterio-isometry + enzymatic shape specificity is not up to the task. Can you explain why the orientation of the ligands either does or does not inactivate protein-receptor site binding? Also I believe that the binding site is not the point of effecasy for choloroquine, but the elevated import of zinc into cells across their own barriers, so it is actually the level of zinc in the cytoplasm that makes chloroquine work. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIymfznD7YA I'm still learning here. |
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Rootmeister
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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"Knowledge of the preferred orientation in turn may be used to predict the strength of association or binding affinity between two molecules." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_(molecular) You may also want to read https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924857920300996 |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Thank you. I am off to read the Wikipedia article. I had seen the other. |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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I had correctly worked out the gyst it seems, but this is very detailed for a layman like me and I will be spending many hours working out the precise meaning of several bits of it. Starting out as a layman, it is all too easy to jump to the conclusion you have understood something when you have it backwards. Lock and key was my understanding, hand and glove is obviously a better analogy. |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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KiminNM
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 22 2020 Location: NM Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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Thank you, this is extremely helpful. (I have zero background in this, and you made it mostly understandable!) Also, if it doesn't take much time, would you be able to check Famciclovir? I know they have ruled out anti-viral herpes drugs because they work differently, but for weeks I've had a little voice thinking that one might be different for some reason. |
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KiminNM
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 22 2020 Location: NM Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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Also, how much turmeric/curcumin are we all going to be taking now??? |
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Rootmeister
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I docked the small ligands from the handy list you provided. Will dock later the antibodies using MegaDock 4. Results: (Edited, added Aciclovir, Famciclovir and Penciclovir) Main protease (PDBid 6LU7): Azvudine: -7.0 kcal/mol Spike protein (PDBid 6VSB) Azvudine: -7.7 kcal/mol Aciclovir: -6.3 kcal/mol So Baloxavir is the way to go As for the Curcumin dosage; I'd say 12g/day (plus hefty amount of black pepper to increase it's absorption). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756464617307399 |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Thank you! |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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KiminNM
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 22 2020 Location: NM Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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Thank you SO much! |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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CRS, DrPH
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interwebber
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Idaho Status: Offline Points: 355 |
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[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH] Not this one! https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx. |
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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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Sure! I see NO scientific justification whatsoever to recommend the use of chloroquine for COVID-19 treatment. The supporting evidence is anecdotal, and the drug is so toxic that you would be better off letting the viral infection run its course IMHO. There were many drugs in testing for SARS and MERS that are being screened for SARS-CoV2, but these are not coming quickly enough to help Italy and Spain. The best treatment remains aggressive social distancing along with widespread testing and isolation of positive cases (not just symptomatic cases). |
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CRS, DrPH
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WitchMisspelled
Adviser Group Joined: January 20 2020 Status: Offline Points: 17170 |
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Rumor in these parts is it's the reason NYC is getting 400 ventilators from the feds today... I'll leave it there. |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Simple! Take the literature with you and the pills if sick and going in to hopspital. Let the doc do it! I have (still in transit) azithromycin and chloroquine and (sitting in my hall) oxygen concentrators and pulse oximiters. The plan is: Plan A, Don't catch it. Plan B, Be healthy enough to survive it unaided Plan C, Have my own supplies to go with me in case I need hospital rescources they don't have, but still go in. Plan D, If no doctors, or given a red armband- only then treat at home. I don't have a plan E - yet! |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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KiminNM
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 22 2020 Location: NM Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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THIS. Exactly this. (Except I don't have an oxygen concentrator, I have the cans that are 95% oxygen vs medical grade.) |
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kaye kaye
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 27 2020 Location: ohio Status: Offline Points: 3290 |
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It was for the fish tank not human consumption. |
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keep the joy
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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I have years of experience in virology, immunology and infectious disease epidemiology. I was one of the first academics to make the connection between HIV and male sex practices. If and when I hear of a legitimate therapy for SARS-CoV2, I'll post it here. You are wasting your money and putting your life at risk with chloroquine. |
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CRS, DrPH
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kaye kaye
V.I.P. Member Joined: February 27 2020 Location: ohio Status: Offline Points: 3290 |
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Myself the only thing extra I am taking is emergen-c gummies and magnesium. |
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keep the joy
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interwebber
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Idaho Status: Offline Points: 355 |
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Thanks for the response. BTW I have no intention of ingesting fish tank cleaner. Was just wondering what else was in this crap that killed the guy, was it overdose, or just poor quality controls? I acted early on (over a month ago) based on information in this forum and anecdotal evidence I saw elsewhere to secure a small amount of chloroquine through an online pharmacy. The only scenario I would consider taking it would be in a SHTF scenario where I or a loved one was turned away for care because of overloaded healthcare system, and even that with consultation of a doctor. I am not sorry I did what I did (no it is not a waste of money or putting my life at risk) if I or someone I love is on their death bed from COVID-19. This drug has basically been around forever. While side effects are real, scare mongering about them is ridiculous. My dad has lots of health problems and was prescribed it while serving overseas in the state department. Not to mention many doctors in my state have been writing prescriptions for themselves and their family members, and trials are beginning beyond treatment to include prophylactics for health care workers in several places. This forum is starting to seem like a place for misinformation rather than best info based on available facts at the time... |
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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!
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EdwinSm,
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Too many posts when I came on this morning, so I posted in detail about this https://www.avianflutalk.com/chloroquine-warning_topic42222.html The wife is also ill. |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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Exactly. I spend a great deal of time trying to tamp down bad information on possible cures and treatments. I am an advisor in a number of critical infrastructure areas including law enforcement, water/wastewater, food production, cybersecurity, power generation, oil refining and more. If there is some "miracle cure," I'll be in the loop to hear about it. A whole lot of folks are trying to keep the USA and other afflicted countries moving. |
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CRS, DrPH
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WitchMisspelled
Adviser Group Joined: January 20 2020 Status: Offline Points: 17170 |
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Oh no! Has she been tested yet? |
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Rootmeister
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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I agree, but facts are that those compounds bind to the proteins of SARS-CoV-2. Here's another list for compounds I've asked to dock: 11-keto-beta-boswellic_acid:6LU7: -8.0 |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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None of us claim to be great scientists, researchers or journalists. We are just a bunch of free thinkers, exercising free speech. We usually just put the information out there and rely on each others to apply their brains. We like to think we have a plethora of them. That puts us ahead of the curve more times than not. We knew of this disease in December: https://www.avianflutalk.com/china-investigates-sars-like-pneumonia-disease_topic40290_page1.html?KW=pneumonia When it comes to treatments (there are none yet) or potential treatments, we are just looking around. Yes, Rootmeister, your modeling gives a huge boost to the search for one line of treatments - those which attempt to block the receptor attachment of the virus, thereby preventing cell access and the resulting short list of candidates could save months, or even years, in that search. But there are other avenues of potential treatments as well, such as the RNA replication within the cell, immune boosting, immune training and symptomatic support of bodily functions until said body recoveres itself or even phage therapy. This in no way diminishes what you do; it accompanies it. We do not advocate any specific approach, except extreme social distancing and hand hygene. We have not added much to the panic buying - most of us stocked up in better times. Many of us have shared our stockpiles, allieviating the current pressures on society. Chuck was advocating appropriate hand hygene YEARS ago. We have tried to share some science (like Babycat's graphs) and simple explanations of things like exponential. Yet we only claim to be a talk forum. (Yes I have bought chloroquine but it is both as a last resort and for use under doctor's supervision - I have been pointing out its dangers for weeks https://www.avianflutalk.com/the-lancet-chloroquine-study_topic41609_post290328.html?KW=chloroquine#290328). So what specifically do you think is our misinformation? |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Rootmeister
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Finland Status: Offline Points: 115 |
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Buckyball C60 (Buckminsterfullerene) has the strongest affinity to SARS-CoV-2 proteins! But the results for Buckyball: |
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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That is an impressively high number. Sadly, I can't get buckminsterfullerine, but I can get buckwheat (very rich in rutin). Please can you tell me what rutin's precise actual score was? |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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KiminNM
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 22 2020 Location: NM Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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From the 3/25 post Rutin:6LU7: -8.7 I noted it specifically because I happen to have some on hand. |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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Losartan looks promising....glad I take it for my blood pressure! |
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CRS, DrPH
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interwebber
V.I.P. Member Joined: March 21 2020 Location: Idaho Status: Offline Points: 355 |
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Ok. I'm a nuclear engineer, and it's easy for me to say this is way above my paygrade. Glad there are such smart people out there thinking and working on this stuff! |
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If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!
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RedTea
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Can we try Bictegravir, Tenofovir Alafenamide, Tenofovir Disoproxil Fumarate, and Rilpivirine? These are easily accessible to me and I'm quite curious. Thank you! |
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A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort!
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FluMom
Adviser Group Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: February 03 2020 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 14695 |
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Oooooo I take it too For my blood pressure. |
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FluMom
Adviser Group Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: February 03 2020 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 14695 |
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Read the study it does not say why they think Losartin will help. Who can tell me what they think this drug does? |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-covid-19-treatments.html Losartan is a generic blood-pressure medication that some scientists are hoping could help patients with COVID-19. The University of Minnesota has launched two clinical trials using the inexpensive, generic drug. The first would evaluate whether losartan can prevent multi-organ failure in those hospitalized with COVID-19 pneumonia. The second would evaluate if the drug can prevent hospitalizations in the first place, Reuters reported. Losartan works by blocking a receptor, or doorway into cells that the chemical called angiotensin II uses to enter the cells and raise blood pressure. SARS-CoV-2 binds to the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor, and it's possible, the thinking goes, that because losartan might block those receptors, it may prevent the virus from infecting cells. Complicating things, a paper published March 11 in the journal The Lancet has raised the possibility that common drugs for hypertension, such as ACE inhibitors and so-called angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs), which includes losartan, might actually spur the body to make more ACE2, thereby increasing the ability of the virus to infiltrate cells. A recent study of 355 COVID-19 patients in Italy (study in Italian) found that three-quarters of the patients who died had hypertension, and the authors propose this is one reason for their increased susceptibility. |
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CRS, DrPH
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WitchMisspelled
Adviser Group Joined: January 20 2020 Status: Offline Points: 17170 |
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If I'm reading that right, CRS, then Valsartan would be as effective as Losartan. It too is an ACE2 inhibitor and I believe they're the same class as drugs. I did a quick search and the difference between the two is compared to low dosages Valsartan works longer than Losartan. |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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You could be right on that! These drugs usually vary by a small functional group in the molecule, usually to escape patent laws vs. for some clinical reason. I'm hearing that Losartan could end up being the new TamiFlu for this bug. I'll keep watching. I take it every day, it is a good blood pressure drug & very inexpensive. |
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CRS, DrPH
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FluMom
Adviser Group Valued Member Since 2006 Joined: February 03 2020 Location: Colorado Status: Offline Points: 14695 |
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I take it everyday too. I had low blood pressure until I started on anastrozole for my breast cancer. Tried a lot of different ones but the made me cough, Losartan works great no problems. Hope you are correct about this protecting from Covid19. Please keep us posted. Thanks for the explanation CRS! |
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Buckybella
Valued Member Joined: April 28 2020 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Rootmeister, I am not a scientist, only a science nerd. I saw these 2 studies and wanted to ask you, would attaching C60 to Remdesivir or other anti-viral make the anti-viral more effective? Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3560587/ Https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/31717305 Also, there are 2 Facebook pages: C60 Research Society and C60 Research Support Group. Would you be willing to post your findings on C60 there? |
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Buckybella
Valued Member Joined: April 28 2020 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Rootmeister, I don't know why the 1st article didn't link. The name of it is Changes in chemiluminescence of whole blood of COPD patients treated with Hypoxen and effects of C60 fullerenes on blood chemiluminescence.
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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Welcome aboard, Buckybella! This entite forum is preppers and science nerds; sometimes both! You will fit right in. |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Buckybella
Valued Member Joined: April 28 2020 Location: US Status: Offline Points: 30 |
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Thanks! |
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max_yazhbin
Experienced Member Joined: May 26 2021 Status: Offline Points: 10 |
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I found out about you via another person who has ME/CFS like me. Here is my experience with what cured my covid when I had it: https://maxyazhbin.xyz/coronavirus/ Good gumweed is hard to come by, the shit on amazon or even etsy isn't rich in selenium like the wild types are. |
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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I guess I qualify as both! |
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CRS, DrPH
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