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Was the 1889-1895 "Russian Flu" corona related ? |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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Posted: July 06 2020 at 2:51am |
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889%E2%80%931890_flu_pandemic[/url] DJ-There is a new discussion on how to explain findings of anti-bodies in old antibody tests (from the 50"s) of people who did get "the Russian Flu". Some claim flu-virus antibodies go back further (to 1881) and the "Flu" was in fact an introduction of a cow-related coronavirus into the human species-started in China. From the wikipedialink: After the SARS epidemic, virologists started sequencing and comparing human and animal coronaviruses, and comparison of two virus strains in the Betacoronavirus 1 species, Bovine coronavirus and Human coronavirus OC43 indicated that they had a most recent common ancestor in the late 19th century, with several methods yielding most probable dates around 1890.[5][16] Authors speculated that an introduction of the former strain to the human population might have caused the epidemic.[5] [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/[/url] |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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DJ-If corona-virus introduction into humans can cause a flu-like pandemic it most likely did happen earlier. These corona-virusses end up giving people a cold. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome[/url] and [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome[/url] "Post Viral Syndrome". Is [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronic_fatigue_syndrome[/url] in some ways comparable with how people have chronic healthissues after Covid19. Can "common"cold-corona-virusses result in long term healthissues-just like sometimes "mild/asymptomatic cases" of Covid19-in wich the patient feels as if there is no problem-turn out to have more severe-first unnoticed-damage. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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From [url]https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/een-vergeten-hoofdstuk-de-coronacrisis-van-1890~b0b9facb/[/url] via google translate |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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DJ-There are four known [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus#Human_coronaviruses[/url] -[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_NL63[/url] -[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_229E[/url] -[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_OC43[/url] and -[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_HKU1[/url] (if links do not work one can copy the link without the url's) All of these once were introduced in the human species. Covid19 is the fifth corona-virus introduction. (Of course also MERS and SARS are Corona virusses) On the 1889-95 pandemic; (from the same [url]https://www.volkskrant.nl/wetenschap/een-vergeten-hoofdstuk-de-coronacrisis-van-1890~b0b9facb/[/url]-very good-article)
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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ViQueen24
Adviser Group Joined: May 14 2013 Location: Verona, PA Status: Offline Points: 12270 |
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Wow, Josh, now you have me curious. Time to do some research... |
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carbon20
Moderator Joined: April 08 2006 Location: West Australia Status: Offline Points: 65816 |
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Seems every 100 years or so a pandemic Or war happens..... Just history repeating it's self..... Round and round we go.....lol |
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Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖
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Technophobe
Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450 |
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The disease we call 'flu' is not a coronavirus at all. "Influenza viruses belong to the family Orthomyxoviridae and have a single-stranded segmented RNA genome. " Source: Google attributes this to the WHO. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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DJ-Techno-of course NOW we know the flu is a virus-different from the corona-virus. In 1890-certainly in Russia, China-that knowledge was not there. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_virology[/url] In 1933 the virus for the Spanish Flu was found [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_virology#Influenza[/url].. Certainly in the 19th century illness often was seen as "a punishment from a god" or other "magic". The Middle Ages still did have a "long shadow"... |
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Technophobe
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Yep! Spot on as always, Josh! |
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How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving. |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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The Great Russian Flu of the early 1890s may have been a Covid-like virus that crossed to humans from cows, scientists suggest - Yet this epidemic erupted in 1891 when waves of disease swept round the globe, eventually killing more than a million people. The outbreak was later attributed to flu and dubbed the Great Russian Flu pandemic. However, a group of Belgian scientists has since argued that the pandemic was caused by a different agent: a coronavirus. “It’s a very convincing analysis,” Dr David Matthews, a coronavirus expert at Bristol University, told the Observer. “The scientists used very sophisticated, advanced research and their claim is worth taking seriously.” The study was led by Belgian biologist Leen Vijgen and her team’s results were published in the Journal of Virology several years ago. Their work, which has re-emerged with the appearance of Covid-19, suggests the coronavirus linked to the 1890 outbreak is likely to have leapt from cows to humans before spreading worldwide. In the case of Covid-19, it is thought bats were the source of the virus. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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DJ-History has many answers ! If the [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889%E2%80%931890_flu_pandemic[/url] indeed had something to do with the OC43 coronavirus [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_OC43[/url] it will be around for seceral years. A 2011 study [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3194943/[/url] may provide more info on the history of this virus. The 1889 "flu" may have come from corona-virus in cows. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus#Infection_in_animals[/url] Coronavirusses in animals are quite common. Recombination does occur in nature (no lab-escape needed). If the 1889 pandemic was a coronavirus disease maybe we underestimate the risk of coronavirusses in (about all kind of) animals. (From horses, swine, cats, rodents, birds and bats). It may be very hard to find evidence-but the description of symptoms, much more male patients etc may distinguish it from patterns we see with flu/pneumonia pandemics (in flu more even male/female distribution. less neurological complaints). Maybe it would be possible to look further back in history to see if we can trace [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus#Infection_in_humans[/url].. (OC43 Russian Flu of 1889, [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_HKU1[/url], [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_229E[/url] and [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_NL63[/url] ) By the way [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_coronavirus_229E#Research[/url] in a 2014 study chloroquine is mentioned as a form of treatment. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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ViQueen24
Adviser Group Joined: May 14 2013 Location: Verona, PA Status: Offline Points: 12270 |
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It certainly sounds like a coronavirus. But didn't scientists later find that elderly people didn't die from Spanish Influenza because of immunity to an earlier strain of flu? Did they just surmise that it was the "flu" of 1889 or did they prove it? My memory is hazy, and I haven't had 5 seconds to look into it... |
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Usk
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 26 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 7285 |
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Interesting it is a mystery why some people are immune. It seems to be no reasonable connection. Areas that are hardest hit llike India . and Brazil with few asymptotic makes you wonder if its that they are just lucky that they may not have come in contact with it |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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A better link [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889%E2%80%931890_flu_pandemic[/url] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1889%E2%80%931890_flu_pandemic (no need for {url] etc for direct links ?)) ; The most reported effects of the pandemic took place October 1889 – December 1890, with recurrences in March – June 1891, November 1891 – June 1892, winter 1893–1894 and early 1895. If we could translate this to the present we have the covid19 till 2025 ? It is not known for certain what agent was responsible for the pandemic. Since 1950s it has been conjectured to be Influenza A virus subtype H2N2.[4][5][6] A 1999 seroarcheological study asserted the strain to be Influenza A virus subtype H3N8.[7] A 2005 genomic virological study says that "it is tempting to speculate" that the virus might have been not actually an influenza virus, but human coronavirus OC43.[5] Danish researchers reached a similar conclusion in 2020, in a yet-unpublished study.[8] So it is not clear yet if it was a coronavirus in 1889. After the SARS epidemic, virologists started sequencing and comparing human and animal coronaviruses, and comparison of two virus strains in the Betacoronavirus 1 species, Bovine coronavirus and Human coronavirus OC43 indicated that they had a most recent common ancestor in the late 19th century, with several methods yielding most probable dates around 1890.[5][17] Authors speculated that an introduction of the former strain to the human population might have caused the epidemic.[5] In 2020, Danish researchers Lone Simonsen and Anders Gorm Pedersen similarly calculated that the Human coronavirus OC43 had split from bovine coronavirus about 130 years ago, i.e. approximately coinciding with the pandemic in 1889–1890. The calculations was based on genetic comparisons between bovine coronavirus and different strains of OC43. Their research is yet to be published.[8] Maybe the present Covid19 has close links to the other known corona-virusses in humans (giving the cold) or maybe even some people did see infections of other corona-virusses (from other species-still overseen) giving some protection. I remember PP/CM had a female virologist in one of his video's and she mentioned corona-virus was as good as not worth studying before the 2003 SARS outbreak. We may have underestimated coronavirusses-and still need to learn a lot. (And I -DJ- have to better check my postings with not working links-if the [url]-thing did change ! ) |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Usk
V.I.P. Member Joined: January 26 2020 Location: Virginia Status: Offline Points: 7285 |
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Thank you for this vert interesting information fascinating |
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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DJ Three "entries" in this discussion; -1 Are there statistics on the age distribution of the 1889 "flu" and how do they compare with "normal" flu (+more deaths in young children-sometimes also in young adults) or Covid19 (most deaths 60+, males over represented) ? (I may have to dig a little deeper in the google data-mine, internet may offer some info) -2 The Spanish Flu virus-samples could be taken from frozen bodies in Alaska. Are there still "Russian Flu" victims in permafrost somewere in Alaska, Canada, Russia or the Himalaya ? (Could it even be the 1889 virus did de-freeze-was eaten by an animal and ended up creating Covid19 ? Another possible link with climate change ???) -3 Do people from area's hit hard by the 1889 flu turn out to be better protected in the 1918 flu ? (Allthough there were different flu-types-very likely if the 1889 "flu" was not a Covid) ? [url]https://www.researchgate.net/publication/261187454_Age-Specific_Mortality_During_the_1918-19_Influenza_Pandemic_and_Possible_Relationship_to_the_1889-92_Influenza_Pandemic[/url] |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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CRS, DrPH
Expert Level Adviser Joined: January 20 2014 Location: Arizona Status: Offline Points: 26660 |
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I agree, good job, DJ! "Influenza" is from the Italian word "influence." In earlier days, before molecular virology, I think that a wide variety of infectious diseases were lumped together as "influenza," regardless of agent. The possibility of a bovine coronavirus infecting humanity at that time has credibility to me. Viruses have long had a dance between human hosts and zoonotic species, so we will never know for sure. |
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CRS, DrPH
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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CRS, DrPH, I hope we can learn more from this last pandemic of the 19th century-the first that realy went global. From statistic patterns one could learn more. A corona pandemic has a different age and gender distribution then a flu pandemic. The idea that-if 1889 was a flu pandemic-could translate in to less cases in most effected area's during 1889-when the Spanish Flu showed up may be "optimistic"-different flu types. Victims in permafrost of the 1889-95 "flu" (=influence) could maybe tell more. Links from the wikipediapage on the corona-virustheory; [url]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/[/url] or https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC544107/ and [url]https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/viden/kroppen/overraskende-opdagelse-coronavirus-har-tidligere-lagt-verden-ned[/url] or https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/viden/kroppen/overraskende-opdagelse-coronavirus-har-tidligere-lagt-verden-ned (Danish) may tell more. I think finding out more on this 1889-95 pandemic should be top priority. Not only for the present Covid19 pandemic but also to make a (more) realistic risk assesment for future pandemics. If Covid19=linked to the 1889-95 virus via defrozen victims/climate change it may be even an example of climate change related health risks. There are not only lots of virusses frozen, also a lot of radio active waist may come to the surface (project Centurion=Northern Greenland-but most likely also other "secret" places in Alaska, Canada, Siberia). |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Dutch Josh
Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 94017 |
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[url]https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/116859/coronavirus-possibly-caused-million-deaths-in-1890-says-marc-van-ranst/[/url] or https://www.brusselstimes.com/news/belgium-all-news/116859/coronavirus-possibly-caused-million-deaths-in-1890-says-marc-van-ranst/ It is possible that the world experienced a deadly coronavirus epidemic 130 years ago as well, according to Belgian virologist Marc Van Ranst. Many physicians, as well as the population, talked about the “Russian flu,” as the rumours about the disease that spread across the continent in 1889-1890, came from the east. It did not have an official name, but was mainly recorded as “influenza” by doctors, meaning they believed it to be a simple flu virus. People who were infected got severely ill, according to Belgian virologist Marc Van Ranst. “With a lot of symptoms that were totally atypical for a flu,” he told De Volkskrant. Initially, the people in Europe thought that their better hygienic standards would prevent the flu, that was spreading across Russia, from crossing over. One inspector of the Brussels health service even wrote that the so-called Russian flu was “a disease from which no one dies.” “Extreme fatigue, high fever, coughing, severe headaches. Russian sources also noted a loss of smell and taste. Very conspicuous. Because that is a symptom we are also seeing right now,” said Van Ranst. “Already in 1890, people said that it was impossible that this was a flu. I do not believe that either. According to my studies, the world then faced a coronavirus pandemic,” he added. This is not the first time that Van Ranst attributes the Russian flu not to a flu virus, but to a coronavirus. The coronavirus does not only present as the Covid-19 strain that is now spreading across the world, but is a group of viruses that cause respiratory tract infections that can range from mild to lethal in humans. In 2005, he and his lab studied the OC43 virus, which today still accounts for 10-15% of all colds, especially the heavier respiratory tract infections. “Our analyses traced the origin of the OC43 virus back to, coincidentally or not, around the year 1890. Then, in our opinion, the bovine coronavirus jumped over to humans,” Van Ranst said, adding that it is not clear if there was an intermediate link involved or not. “So, it is very tempting to say that what we are experiencing now also happened in 1890. However, I do not have evidence, of course. You would have to examine lung material from a patient at that time,” Van Ranst said. “But I think it is a very plausible line of thinking,” he added. Additionally, the history of the OC43 virus may give hope for the future of the coronavirus that causes Covid-19. “The OC43 virus has been severely weakened. That does indeed make us hope that it will also happen like that now, but we do not yet know how fast that will go,” Van Ranst said. |
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We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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