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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

DATELINE SUNDAY APRIL 23, 7PM "outbreak"

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    Posted: April 19 2006 at 5:42pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12371022/

April 18, 2006 | 11:10 a.m. ET

Reporting the Avian Flu (Ann Curry, Dateline and Today show anchor)

It is against my nature to want to scare people. Even as a kid, I didn't understand what was fun about sneaking up on  someone.      

So I am struggling with my discomfort in reporting what we at NBC News have learned about the Avian Flu.

This is the virus, first found in Hong Kong, that has in recent years, spread like wildfire in birds, into Southeast Asia, then last year into Central Europe, this year reaching all the way to Great Britain, and just a few months ago, into Africa.

So far, 200 people have been made sick, more than half have died, all it appears, infected by birds.

When experts began predicting it could reach the U.S., I suggested at a Dateline story meeting, that we start asking questions: are there safeguards to protect the American people?  What should we do to protect ourselves?  Dateline's senior producers assigned a team to investigate.

Ever wish you'd never asked?

Our NBC News team, contacted some of the world's top experts in the field of influenza, including leading officials at the  World Health Organization, the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, and more. 

Here's what they told us:

1. As the Avian Flu spreads, it is mutating, increasing the chances it will turn into a virus that can be spread not just from birds to humans, but from humans to humans.  If this happens there would a pandemic.  No one knows whether or not this will happen.

2. If a pandemic starts, chances are it cannot be stopped.  The World Health Organization told us, it would try to stop it, if warning signs come in time.  But this has never been tried before.

3. According the U.S. Department of Health and Human services, in a severe pandemic, as many as 90 million people could get sick worldwide.  Most people who would survive, but by some estimates almost two million people might die.

At this point, you are probably thinking, as I was, you've got to be kidding. But that's what the government is saying.)

4. It would likely take at least 6 months to produce a vaccine, once the new, mutated virus is identified.  So during the height of a pandemic, a vaccine will not be available.

5. It is very possible the current strain of Avian Flu will not mutate into a virus that can be transmitted by humans.  Still, according to these same experts, a flu pandemic of some sort is "probable,"  because history tells us "pandemics happen."  There have already been three in the last century, the worst in 1918, killed up to 40 million.

But certainly, you might be thinking, "Surely, with all the medical advances at our fingertips, America will never see a pandemic like 1918, right?" The U.S. government isn't so sure.

6. The nation's Secretary of Health and Human Services, Mike Leavitt, who has closely studied the 1918 pandemic says America is "underprepared," that if a pandemic were to   start, people would die, hospitals in the U.S. would be overwhelmed, and that even when a vaccine is found, it may not be widely available, as there are not currently enough vaccine manufacturers to produce all that would be needed.  

Here's the good news.  We can better protect ourselves if we are informed.

So our news team asked the same group of world experts on influenza to help write a scenario on how a pandemic could start, how it could affect daily life, and what people can do to protect themselves.  

Because we needed to illustrate the scenario, NBC News took the unusual step of using volunteers and a few community actors working with NBC news cameramen to go through the motions of visualizing what could happen.

The team worked to stay strictly within the bounds of good journalism,  and it was a challenge under the unusual circumstances.  Pains were taken to make certain we stayed true to what the experts were telling us. 

The final report is a full hour, which airs this coming Sunday night, April 23rd, on Dateline NBC.

I hope you are informed and empowered.  But please forgive us.  We may, because of the subject matter, also scare you a little.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 5:55pm
WOW! And I'm going to be out of town ... actually ... flying home the night this is on! I'll have to check and see if they have a 'to order a copy of this...'.
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Oh, I have GOTTA watch this!!!!!!!!!!!!! They're actually devoting a full hour to this??!!!!!!!!!! I sure hope they got it and present it properly.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 6:16pm
My response to Ann Curry:  (You can write one too! In fact, let's all write her one!!!)-k
YES!  Finally somebody is putting something out there on this! People just ARE NOT LISTENING! They laugh, shake it off, accuse the governement of hyping it all up, and look at those who are heeding the warning like they are looney! We're over-reacting ... blowing it out of proportion ... going to extremes ... because we're buying extra groceries, water and other essentials that are used every day. They are not paying attention to the fact that this is a real real dangerous situation that has a real real good chance of happening!  They'll run out and but milk and bread for one snow-day off from school, but don't believe that they could possibly have to stay at home ... no stores ... no work ... no school for several weeks (at least). People just feel that that they are infallable and that nothing bad on a grand scale can happen to them ... we live in the 21st century ... how could it? , they ask!  Well this is nature and nature doesn't take a holiday just because we are now in more modern times.  Science is a marvel ... but there are some things that even modern day science has trouble dealing with.  This is one of them and people need to take notice.  I wonder how many people will start preparing their homes after your show?  I wonder if local municipalities will FINALLY start to encourage folks to prepare to be self-contained and self-sufficient after your show?  I wonder if DOCTORS who are smiling and lightly shaking their heads and patting us on the  hands as they say this is all 'media hype'  will FINALLY get it. My own pediatrician said that very thing, just 2 weeks ago when I asked for info.  He asked ME to tell HIM what I knew because he hasn't been keeping track.  He said that there are a lot of other things in our daily life that can kill us first!!!!  Yep ... Michael Leavitt was right ... we're on our own!  I'll just keep preparing my household so that when the time comes ... weather it's just a few weeks or a few months of staying put, I'll know that I have done the very best that I could to keep my family as safe as possible till a vaccine is available. And, if those of us, who are 'prepping' don't use the groceries we bought .. think of all the food banks and shelters that are going to reap the benefits!  THANK YOU for putting this out there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fpmagnolia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 8:14pm
"According the U.S. Department of Health and Human services, in a severe pandemic, as many as 90 million people could get sick worldwide.  Most people who would survive, but by some estimates almost two million people might die"
 
 
I think this number is way low!! What do you think? The show will be well worth watching but, I hope the low numbers doesn't lull some to sleep thinking that with all the billions of people worldwide that two million would be tragic but, that doesn't seem like alot. Some may feel like because we live in America that the third world countries will account for most of the deaths. I thought I had read somewhere that the death count could reach 100 million worldwide with the United States accounting for two million. I pray that the two million worldwide will be all there is. I pray even harder that the BF dies out.
LIONS AND TIGERS AND BIRDS. OH MY!!!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tazman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 8:43pm
I justed rented this movie (outbreak0 and watched it. This gives an excellent idea of how things can change and how easy it is to get infected.. they even talk about the 1918 influenza in this movie..
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IF YOU USE THE STATS FROM THE 1918 PANDEMIC AND FACTOR IN THE CURRENT POPULATION YOU GET AN APPROXIMATE DEATH RATE OF 1.9 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE US ALONE. THE MEDIA HAS ALL THE FACTS MUDDLED. THAN THEY QUOTE THEM IN THE NEWS, AND IT IS A MESS. I JUST WISH THE MEDIA WOULD GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frisky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 8:57pm
  Obviously the figure 90 million sick is USA and not worldwide with 2 million deaths in the USA alone.
It is better to give than to receive.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 9:58pm

The world population clock showed the world's population count after 1918 decreased by 60 million. These were the "reported" deaths not all deaths. Africa was propbably not recorded as they didn't have the technology to obtain and record all deaths.
If since 1918 the population has tripled, the US pop. was 108 million, then it would be logical to assume that the number of deaths would triple as well. I personally believe, as we live in much more congested cities and we are far less capable to "living off the land" people would be at greater risk of death.
The mortality rate presently is 52% and this is with well staffed hospitals, access to tamiflu and ventilators.
This will not be the scenario if H5 goes pandemic.

IF H5 retains it's virulence, I imagine the deaths to be more like 200,000,000 at least.

I have read noted US virologist to estimate that should H5 maintain it's virulence, 1 billion people would be infected with half of them dying.


Mary Kay RN
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:19pm
The death toll has some variables:
 
Firstly the strike rate, the percentage of people actually infected out of the whole population. In 1918 it was about 25% but in the case of an H5 pandemic it could easily be 50% or 60%.
 
Then there is the mortality rate expressed as a percentage. Of the 25% of infected people in the US in 1918, some 20,000,000 were infected and some 750,000 died. Over all this was a mortality rate of 3% in round figures.
 
Having said that, some communities - native American and Inuit - were wiped out 100% with all buried but one. I expect we will see that again.
 
So far, the mortality rate is 55% but the Indonesian clade is higher. The problem being we do not know how many people have had mild doses of the virus and were not reported and were not counted as cases.
 
55% is very high so if the strike rate were high say 50% and 50% of those infected died, we would see 25% of the population killed in a matter of months.
 
This then is problematic because this assumes all the people get intensive care and they will not happen so the rate will be higher.
 
This then also leads to other variables -
 
how many people will die of starvation if there is no food in the supermarkets?
 
how many will die when law and order breaks down while marauding for food?
 
how many will die of diseases from all the corpses laying around unburied?
 
If 50% of the population gets sick, who will look after them? Many health professionals will abandon their posts and head for the hills with their families to save themselves.
 
So 50% of the population of Australia for example is 10 million people - in the UK it is 30 million people - in the US it is about 150 million people.
 
Who will feed and care for these people - not many.
 
Mass graves will not be able to keep up in the event of a pandemic so the bodies will decompose adding to the health risk with more biohazard.
 
Anyway you look at it it is grim.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:26pm

MAY GOD BLESS US ALL...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Ottelia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 10:40pm
I am a first time poster - on any site, ever. Please bear with me.  I believe that when this movie is shown there will be some mid-level panic where I live and water will be in short supply for awhile.  (This recently happened in this community when there was bacteria found in the water. Everyone bought every gallon in town and the shelves were empty until the all clear a week later.   I plan on doing a bit more prepping, especially food and water, before the movie airs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2006 at 11:03pm

Welcome Ottelia! This post is about a Dateline special this Sunday Night at 7:00 pm. there is also an ABC Movie scheduled for May 8th I think.

SORRY IT IS ABC, MAY 9TH FROM 8:00 - 10:00PM.

Edited by Diane - April 20 2006 at 4:29pm
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May 9th.
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Diane,
   Thanks so much for posting this!!!  Maybe my family and friends might take me more seriously!!!   Again. thank you.  Wendy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 8:12am
Originally posted by Diane Diane wrote:

IF YOU USE THE STATS FROM THE 1918 PANDEMIC AND FACTOR IN THE CURRENT POPULATION YOU GET AN APPROXIMATE DEATH RATE OF 1.9 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE US ALONE. THE MEDIA HAS ALL THE FACTS MUDDLED. THAN THEY QUOTE THEM IN THE NEWS, AND IT IS A MESS. I JUST WISH THE MEDIA WOULD GET THE FACTS STRAIGHT.

I don't know if those stats are even usable given that the H5N1 has shown itself to be more than twice as lethal as the 1918 strain in the numbers we have now. I think they are trying  as best as they can, given that there are no "facts" on H5N1 until after the fact.  LOL.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 8:17am
Ottelia Smart idea about stocking up before the show airs. I have been prepping for a month or so now, but I still have lots to do.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 8:32am
It is a good idea.  In the past couple of weeks, as I grab five or six gallons of water each time I am in Walmart, I have noticed that the water shelves are getting a little bare.
I said to the Walmart cashier, "Boy you guys go through a lot of jugs of water."  The cashier responded, "Bird flu."
So I think some are preparring and not admitting it.  Understandably so...avoidance of ridicule or a bunch of friends and family showing up at your doorstep during a potential crisis.
As the demand increases, on a gradual basis, you can bet the Sam Walton kids are paying attention to the increased sales.   It would be good if we just designate one day, and all go buy water at a Walmart on the same day........so we can push the supply demands a little harder a little faster.
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 9:05am

I agree that 1.9 million deaths in the US is probably way to low if this thing goes h2h. What I am saying is if you ONLY use published statistics that the government has recognized as the "true" numbers of the pandemic flu of 1918, the total deaths in the US will be a minimum of 1.9. That is the lowest number that a statistician looking to the past would come up with. If you factor in the true infection rate, death rate, and the true population,  it would be incredibly higher. However using the governments own numbers, going by that past pandemic, it would be a minimum of 1.9 deaths. When you see a mortality rate of 65% in China, and 90% in Indonesia, you can't even contemplate the numbers. It is just inconceivable. My hope is that will exchange some of it's virulence when it sustains h2h transmission. JMHO



Edited by Diane - April 20 2006 at 9:18am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 11:00am


    
One thing to keep in mind is that people during the 1918 pandemic only had one virus to deal with. There is official acknowledgement of two distinct H5N1 viruses, and unofficially upwards, of 3-4 currently in circulation.
It might be difficult to extrapolate based on previous experiences. The current situation is unique in many ways.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 11:19am

You are so right Rick. Let's hope that they don't all go h2h. If so pray that they would have enough in common that there would be some antibody immune response if infected more than once with different viruses. Some how i have a gut feeling that it will be more like a cold virus. If you have had one, it doesn't give you much resistance to the one you come in contact with in the future... they mutate and you just get another cold... GOD HELP US!!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 12:17pm
Ottelia, welcome aboard. Don't hesitate to ask any questions, we have many knowledgable people here who are glad to help.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 8:40pm
Rick where can I read about the two strains of H5?
Dang! This is just getting worse and worse.

Mary Kay RN
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Had a call tonight from daughter in law, they are advertising the movie now on abc.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fiddlerdave2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2006 at 11:45pm
Mary Kay's analysis is pretty sensible to me.  With the higher population densities now, there is no reason to assume a lower death rate.  None of the advances in medical care that could increase survivability will be available - food and general health procedures will break down very fast (city sewers (more people had outhouses), garbage collection (you fed it to your animals or burned or buried on your land - now it will be dumped out the windows of high rise condos and apartments).
 
But consider the ADDITIONAL death rate from basically losing medical care for regular problems - heart attacks, strokes, appendicitis, asthma, infections, broken bones, childbirth complications occuring in the now required home deliveries (that's over 1 million births annually- a 6 month SHTF period means 500,000 births at home). EVERYTHING that people have in day to day life will only be able to be treated at home with basic first aid since the hospitals will be overwhelmed, assuming there are any supplies there anyway.   This figure could equal 2 million deaths itself (my own figure).  We will temporarily return to the level of medical support available at the beginning of the 20th century.  How ready are any of us for that? (I guess I am prepping for that since I lost my health insurance a few months ago and am uninsurable even tho I am not sick - hey, a head start!)
Dave
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2006 at 4:48am
SmileGuess the Nut case preppers (LOL) will be a plus in the death rate projection from the starvation angle. One good thought amongst a lot of bad ones.

Edited by jo007athome - April 21 2006 at 4:50am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sheba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 21 2006 at 4:53am
Tonight on NBC's Evening News there will be segment on bird flu.  I watched the one this morning at 7 a.m. and it was pretty good.    My opinion...it will get things fired up a little like a month ago when ABC had stories on their news channels then it kindof died down.  They may have gotten some people's attention that will stick and cause them to put away some food.
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