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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Gestalt # 60- SARS-2 Pandemic

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Tabitha111 View Drop Down
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    Posted: August 07 2021 at 8:27am

monotreme1000 | August 7, 2021

Where's my booster shot?


The vaccines that Americans have received are starting to wane in effectiveness. Booster shots have been shown to provide strong protection against the Delta and other new variants.

The Delta variant is expected to peak within the next 4 or 5 weeks.

Israel, Germany, France and many countries in the Middle East have already starting giving their citizens booster shots.

Excess vaccine is being thrown away in the United States because it is expiring. Yet, the director of the CDC is still trying to decide whether or not to allow Americans to get booster shots. We do not have time for her dithering. How much you wanna bet that the well-connected are doing whatever is necessary to get booster shots, now?


What happened to herd immunity?


We were supposed to have achieved herd immunity by now. Obviously, this has not happened. The vaccine is providing some protection against serious illness and death, but is not protecting against infection and carrier status.

What about "natural immunity"?

Weren't lots of people already infected with coronavirus?

Are these people protected against serious illness and death from the Delta strain?

 I have my doubts.


Evolution and the Future of the Pandemic


There are two basic concepts that underly evolution: random mutation and selection.

All life on earth, including both viruses and human beings, use nucleic acids (DNA or RNA) to store genetic information. These nucleic acids can be changed (mutated) as a result of radiation or errors in copying. These changes are basically random.

Whether or not these changes are passed on to future generations depends on whether or not they are beneficial. Most changes have no effect on the function of the organism. We would say that these mutations are neutral.

The second most common type of mutation is deleterious. We would say that these mutations are under negative selection. Individuals with these mutations are less likely to survive or reproduce.

Very rarely, a mutation occurs which is beneficial. We would say that these mutations are under positive selection. Individuals with these mutations are more likely to survive and reproduce. Selection can change. In other words, what was a beneficial mutation in some environments can be deleterious in other environments.


SARS-CoV-2 is constantly mutating. It is under selection to survive and reproduce, like all other organisms.

When we have a population with lots of vaccinated people, the environment for the virus will have changed. It will now be under intense selection to reproduce in people who have been vaccinated. It has already accomplished this, to some extent, with the Delta strain. Vaccinated humans are still able to resist the Delta strain, to some extent, but new mutations may allow the virus to breach our final immunological defense.

It may be that no mutation that is consistent with viral integrity can occur which will breach this final defense. We don't know. But what we can say is, if this can occur, it will. Ironically, this is the point of gain-of-function experiments: to explore mutational space and find out what is and is not possible for a virus to do. Perhaps there are researchers in China who know the answer to this question.


It may be worth reminding people that we are also under selection.

The choices we make now influence the probability that we live or die.

Listening to ignorant or crooked people on the radio, TV or social media will decrease your odds of survival. This does not mean that everything you hear from "official scientists" is true either.

Dr. Fauci has admitted to lying about important issues such as herd immunity. Dr. Walensky gave terrible guidance when she told vaccinated people it was safe for them to remove their masks in crowded rooms. The dogmatic and suicidal insistence of public health authorities to keep airports open no matter how many deadly viruses enter our country defies all logic and evidence. 


   





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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ME163 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 10:21am

One of the most shocking aspects of covid 19 has been the divide between rich and poor nations. Even more out of wack is  the level of services within communities,  Who do we trust ? and when can we trust them.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 3:18pm

Our government here in NZ has said that herd immunity is not possible with this disease. It will never happen.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 4:08pm

We have never reached herd immunity from the common cold.....

If the virus didn't mutate everytime it is passed on ,then yes heard immunity would be possible,

Herd immunity would be possible if C19 were a bacterium which never change as far as I know,

But viruses are a complete different kettle of fish......

Very unstable,mutate all the time......

The biggest problem here is , people are not taught about mutations/evolution......

Remember there are no set rules when dealing with a pandemic,it's all a fluid situation,those that can adapt quickly will survive thoses that don't........that's natural selection in action......

Charles Darwin is my hero......

Take care all 😷😉

P.S never heard Fauci lie .......









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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 4:56pm

I am pretty sure herd immunity is impossible too.  Maybe it could be achieved for a while, but a new mutation would eventually emerge somwhere else and be imported.  

Currently about 90% of Brits have had at least one jab and numbers are going down.  But going down does not mean dissapearing.  Our smart government does not seem to understand that.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 10:56pm

I do not believe Fauci lied either.  I heard early in the pandemic that herd immunity could be reached at somewhere between 70-85%.  I quoted 80% in a conversation with a friend in May 2020.  Fauci did not think early on that we could persuade 80-85% to vax, and he thought the highest amount of people realistically that would agree to vax and still get us to herd immunity was 70%, so that is the number he quoted.  Call it his opening bid.  When he thought more people might agree to vax, he said, let's get up to 80-85%, just to be on the safe side.  And with Delta and other variants rolling around, I think he was right.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 11:26pm

Originally posted by ViQueen24 ViQueen24 wrote:

I do not believe Fauci lied either.  I heard early in the pandemic that herd immunity could be reached at somewhere between 70-85%.  I quoted 80% in a conversation with a friend in May 2020.  Fauci did not think early on that we could persuade 80-85% to vax, and he thought the highest amount of people realistically that would agree to vax and still get us to herd immunity was 70%, so that is the number he quoted.  Call it his opening bid.  When he thought more people might agree to vax, he said, let's get up to 80-85%, just to be on the safe side.  And with Delta and other variants rolling around, I think he was right.

According to our government 97% would need to be vaccinated and that's assuming the virus stays mainly the same. it's not possible to vaccinate that % not only because children make up 15% of our popuation but there are certain people who can't have the vaccine. So herd immunity is not possible.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 07 2021 at 11:30pm

Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

I am pretty sure herd immunity is impossible too.  Maybe it could be achieved for a while, but a new mutation would eventually emerge somwhere else and be imported.  

Currently about 90% of Brits have had at least one jab and numbers are going down.  But going down does not mean dissapearing.  Our smart government does not seem to understand that.

Are the numbers going down or is it that people are simply not getting tested? Afterall, if the majority of people suffer symptoms similar to a cold (runny nose, sore throat, headache) why on earth would they get tested and have restrictions imposed on them? Why not just ride it out at home and if you get really ill, then pipe up about it? I certainly have a close relative in the UK right now who probably has it but isn't being tested - for the very reasons I suggested above. She's taking care to try not to spread it, but she doesn't want to answer questions to a stranger from track and trace on the phone, or to get checked up on like some recalcitrant child. 

I suspect that with the summer holidays in full swing, people don't want their plans upset. My relatives tell me that they know dozens of people who most likely have it but are keeping quiet.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 7:46am

KiwiMum, I would be curious where your government is getting its statistics.  Not saying they are wrong or right, as they have been doing right by their people thus far.  But the fact is almost all viruses have a herd immunity factor of 70-85%, assuming other appropriate behavior such as quarantining where necessary, social distancing, and proper PPE's, none of which were really properly adhered to.  The original Covid virus was no different.  The Delta variant and future variants may indeed be another story.  And one we would not need to be addressing if the majority of world governments had made smarter mitigation choices for their citizens, as we have all said many times.  

But my point was Fauci did not lie.  He made an opening minimalist bid and when he thought there might be more vaccine compliance, he upped the ante to get us into safer territory.  But he was right the first time.  People were not compliant.  That, combined with poor behavior and mitigation choices have led us to where we are now -- the variants holding sway.

And these folks your relatives know, maybe fine and dandy if they stay home and don't infect anyone (which is NOT what is happening here in the States), but as several doctors here have stated, every single symptomatic Covid patient they have x-rayed have had damage to their lungs equivalent to years of smoking.  And so have 70-80% of asymptomatic cases. 

JMHO, but I think not reporting can be anything from pretty stupid to criminally liable, depending on if you endangered anyone after you knew you were sick.  Around here I know of two people who are being criminally prosecuted for not self-quarantining as prescribed when they had Covid.  And even if they win their criminal cases, there will immediately be civil cases filed against them which they will probably lose, due to lower burden of proof.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 11:02am

I agree about the criminality Queenie; freedom only goes so far or you have anarchy.  I should be free to hold a gun, but not to shoot anyone.  I should be free to drive a car, but not over pedestrians.  I should be free to go where I like, but not while I am contagious with a deadly disease.

But "herd immunity" is a difficult one.  Your figures are correct - in general, but as this disease has multiple hosts, it requires a different set of rules.  Also our interconnected world insures that there are many human resevoirs of infection - until everyone is vaccinated worldwide.  That is what the WHO means when it keeps repeating: "No one is safe until everyone is safe."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 2:02pm

Originally posted by ViQueen24 ViQueen24 wrote:

KiwiMum, I would be curious where your government is getting its statistics.  Not saying they are wrong or right, as they have been doing right by their people thus far.  But the fact is almost all viruses have a herd immunity factor of 70-85%, assuming other appropriate behavior such as quarantining where necessary, social distancing, and proper PPE's, none of which were really properly adhered to.  The original Covid virus was no different.  The Delta variant and future variants may indeed be another story.  And one we would not need to be addressing if the majority of world governments had made smarter mitigation choices for their citizens, as we have all said many times.  

But my point was Fauci did not lie.  He made an opening minimalist bid and when he thought there might be more vaccine compliance, he upped the ante to get us into safer territory.  But he was right the first time.  People were not compliant.  That, combined with poor behavior and mitigation choices have led us to where we are now -- the variants holding sway.

And these folks your relatives know, maybe fine and dandy if they stay home and don't infect anyone (which is NOT what is happening here in the States), but as several doctors here have stated, every single symptomatic Covid patient they have x-rayed have had damage to their lungs equivalent to years of smoking.  And so have 70-80% of asymptomatic cases. 

JMHO, but I think not reporting can be anything from pretty stupid to criminally liable, depending on if you endangered anyone after you knew you were sick.  Around here I know of two people who are being criminally prosecuted for not self-quarantining as prescribed when they had Covid.  And even if they win their criminal cases, there will immediately be civil cases filed against them which they will probably lose, due to lower burden of proof.

My cousin is in a walking group with 4 other women, all of them are vaccinated and all four of them then caught Covid. My cousin is unvaccinated. As for it being criminal activity for someone not to report they have Covid, I think the way round it is to not get tested. If I had a cold and suspected it was Covid, I simply wouldn't get tested. Then I couldn't be charged for withholding information, I could say I thought it was a cold. Problem solved.

Here is just one article that was published in the press over here about herd immunity being unachievable. 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/125589173/covid19-new-data-suggests-herd-immunity-unachievable-in-new-zealand


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 2:05pm

Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

But "herd immunity" is a difficult one.  Your figures are correct - in general, but as this disease has multiple hosts, it requires a different set of rules.  Also our interconnected world insures that there are many human resevoirs of infection - until everyone is vaccinated worldwide.  That is what the WHO means when it keeps repeating: "No one is safe until everyone is safe."

But we've been over this point a number of times before: vaccination does not stop you from either catching covid, or from transmitting it to others. So even if you vaccinated every single person on the planet, Covid would still be with us because some people would still have it, be sick from it and pass it on, or have it, have no symptoms and pass it on. 

Until there is a proper vaccine that actually protects someone from catching the disease, we'll have Covid with us.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 08 2021 at 6:18pm

I disagree.  I think it will follow history.  We will have multiple variants burning their way through whoever they will, then it will mutate into something milder. Eventually...

Your way sounds fine, KiwiMum, as long as everyone behaves responsibly and quarantines at home.  And maybe that is what is happening where you describe.  But not here.  Here infected people wander the universe with no masks on, do not social distance, and give it to others.  And as I said before, one thing I can promise:  if me or mine catches Covid because of someone's deliberate, criminal misuse/abuse of their liberty, I will hire a team of lawyers, and hunt them down to the ends of the earth.  And they will have nothing when I get done with them but the clothes they're standing up in, and one mirror to look at themselves in.  I will freakin' ruin them.  On that you may make book.  People today confuse freedom and liberty with license, and then cry when it's time to pay the price.

As for it being criminal activity for someone not to report they have Covid, I think the way round it is to not get tested. If I had a cold and suspected it was Covid, I simply wouldn't get tested. Then I couldn't be charged for withholding information, I could say I thought it was a cold. Problem solved.

That wouldn't go so well here in the States, KiwiMum, if someone caught Covid from you.  "Ignorance is no excuse under the law".  The prosecution would simply establish that with a global pandemic going on, you would have to live under a rock not to know what Covid symptoms are, and that you should have submitted yourself for testing.  Criminally liable, case closed.

As for herd immunity, those figures quoted were always assuming governments would do their part, and that people would social distance, quarantine when appropriate, and use PPE.  And those things didn't happen, so this is the reality we are left with.  I have worked nearly all of my life in customer service.  I have been out of work since March 2020, and I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I have more contempt for people now than I did when I worked.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 2:59am

I think that's one of the major disadvantages of the vaccines - they lessen symptoms and make it more likely for someone to have asymptomatic covid, so someone might be fully vaccinated and feeling fine, maybe just a bit off colour but generally fine, and in actual fact they could be walking around spreading Covid to all they meet. 

If I had had my way, and the skills to make it happen, I would have made a "vaccine" that turns people bright green when they have Covid, so that everyone could see it and then distance themselves appropriately. 

You only have to look at the way it's spreading in Australia. Good people who feel fine and have no idea they have it, and they are passing it on to their communities. I think we have reached a stage where it is impossible to determine where someone got the disease or from whom they contracted it. And I can't see it getting any better. I read a very interesting article today where a company that specialises in vaccine developement said that Covid is mutating every 10 hours!!!!!!!! That's incredible and there's no way that vaccines can keep up with that. We have to hope that it mutates to become a mild irritant.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 8:42am

The vaccine that turns people green is an intriguing idea, KiwiMum!  I like that!

The rest, you are probably sadly right...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 10:37am

I like that idea too.  

You are right, encouraging asymptomatic infections is a definite downside to the vaccines.  Of course, you can have one of those if you are unvaccinated, but the vaccinated think they are immune and this is only the case for 60% of them.  It is a big problem.  But as you say, you can't fix stupid!

All of which suggests that the vaccines are a good tool in the toolkit, but you need all the rest too.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 1:01pm

Techno I heard this morning from a cousin in the UK, in the London area, that she and her family went to a restaurant last night and walked in wearing masks to find not one person in there wearing them. Not even the waiting staff. In addition to that, all the tables had been shoved closer to each other to get more people in and they were so close together that it was hard to walk between them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 2:20pm

I refer you to your signature - spot on, Dear!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 2:25pm

Major advantage of any vaccine's is to protect you from death....

As they have been proved to do for 300 years.....

Take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 09 2021 at 2:26pm

My kids are all booked into get vaccinated......

Good on them....

Doing the right thing for there fellow Australians......

Take care all 😷😉💉

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2021 at 2:29am

Originally posted by Tabitha111 Tabitha111 wrote:

monotreme1000 | August 7, 2021

Where's my booster shot?


The vaccines that Americans have received are starting to wane in effectiveness. Booster shots have been shown to provide strong protection against the Delta and other new variants.

The Delta variant is expected to peak within the next 4 or 5 weeks.

Israel, Germany, France and many countries in the Middle East have already starting giving their citizens booster shots.

Excess vaccine is being thrown away in the United States because it is expiring. Yet, the director of the CDC is still trying to decide whether or not to allow Americans to get booster shots. We do not have time for her dithering. How much you wanna bet that the well-connected are doing whatever is necessary to get booster shots, now?


What happened to herd immunity?


We were supposed to have achieved herd immunity by now. Obviously, this has not happened. The vaccine is providing some protection against serious illness and death, but is not protecting against infection and carrier status.

What about "natural immunity"?

Weren't lots of people already infected with coronavirus?

Are these people protected against serious illness and death from the Delta strain?

 I have my doubts.


Evolution and the Future of the Pandemic


There are two basic concepts that underly evolution: random mutation and selection.

All life on earth, including both viruses and human beings, use nucleic acids (DNA or RNA) to store genetic information. These nucleic acids can be changed (mutated) as a result of radiation or errors in copying. These changes are basically random.

Whether or not these changes are passed on to future generations depends on whether or not they are beneficial. Most changes have no effect on the function of the organism. We would say that these mutations are neutral.

The second most common type of mutation is deleterious. We would say that these mutations are under negative selection. Individuals with these mutations are less likely to survive or reproduce.

Very rarely, a mutation occurs which is beneficial. We would say that these mutations are under positive selection. Individuals with these mutations are more likely to survive and reproduce. Selection can change. In other words, what was a beneficial mutation in some environments can be deleterious in other environments.


SARS-CoV-2 is constantly mutating. It is under selection to survive and reproduce, like all other organisms.

When we have a population with lots of vaccinated people, the environment for the virus will have changed. It will now be under intense selection to reproduce in people who have been vaccinated. It has already accomplished this, to some extent, with the Delta strain. Vaccinated humans are still able to resist the Delta strain, to some extent, but new mutations may allow the virus to breach our final immunological defense.

It may be that no mutation that is consistent with viral integrity can occur which will breach this final defense. We don't know. But what we can say is, if this can occur, it will. Ironically, this is the point of gain-of-function experiments: to explore mutational space and find out what is and is not possible for a virus to do. Perhaps there are researchers in China who know the answer to this question.


It may be worth reminding people that we are also under selection.

The choices we make now influence the probability that we live or die.

Listening to ignorant or crooked people on the radio, TV or social media will decrease your odds of survival. This does not mean that everything you hear from "official scientists" is true either.

Dr. Fauci has admitted to lying about important issues such as herd immunity. Dr. Walensky gave terrible guidance when she told vaccinated people it was safe for them to remove their masks in crowded rooms. The dogmatic and suicidal insistence of public health authorities to keep airports open no matter how many deadly viruses enter our country defies all logic and evidence. 

*ahem*  I am one of the "public health authorities" that you refer to.  Let me explain a few things:

1.  The world PH infrastructure (CDC, WHO, etc.) should have been prepared for a return of the 2003 SARS virus, closely related to the SARS-CoV2 coronavirus we are now fighting.  I had long predicted this and have given medical school/epidemiology lectures about why the 2003 event was likely to repeat (i.e. Chinese still eat things like bats and civet cats, have wet markets etc.) but my public health colleagues, as were many on the old AFT forum, were obsessed with the emergence of avian influenza H5N1.   Spoiler alert - H5N1 doesn't like the taste of humans and won't likely evolve into a pandemic flu strain. 

2.  No vaccine "prevents you" from getting infected, in fact, just the opposite.  Vaccines are not magical "force fields" like in Star Trek....if the virus finds you, whether it is COVID-19, measles, flu etc., you will be infected and "colonized" by the virus.  It is then that the magic begins - having been vaccinated, your body's immune response starts to respond to the challenge of the viral antigens, and many wonderful things happen = antibodies are produced by B lymphocytes, which retain a memory of the viral antigen thanks to the vaccine; other immune cells such as T-lymphocytes, mast cells, etc. ramp up and prepare to release cytokines (aka "cytokine storm"), histamines and other chemicals to fight off the invader, and your body will likely develop a few mild symptoms including fever.   However, compared to a person who is unvaccinated, your ride with COVID-19 will be much more secure and less likely to end in serious illness or death. 

3.  I'm sick and tired of people grousing about Dr. Fauci.  He has done an amazing job, and the public health infrastructure in general is doing very well on the vaccine production side.  Where we are failing badly is the messaging.  Look at a state like Mississippi in the USA, where vaccination rates are far less than 50% due to cultural issues (far right wing, superstition, belief in rumors etc.).  Mississippi's hospitals are at advanced crisis stage, and people who are on the doorstep of death now plead for vaccine.  Well, a bit too late.  https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/hospitals-crisis-vaccinated-state-us-79847361

We are going through a once-in-100-year event, i.e. major global pandemic.  They all follow the same pattern and eventually end.  Complaining about business losses, canceled vacations and politics doesn't matter to the virus one bit.   Our only defense is vaccination, masking (I was a skeptic at first, but Delta proved me wrong), social distancing and time.  

Quit complaining.  Most of us will get through this, we seem to be a clever bunch.  There is no magic bullet, just good common sense.  

CRS, DrPH
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2021 at 4:28am









Well said Doc, ignorance thrives.....

When most are hooked on social media...... listening to unscientific nonsense.....

Natural selection in progress

Take care all 😷😉💉

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

Marcus Aurelius
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: September 07 2021 at 11:46am

Chuck, thank you, great post.  Your second paragraph is golden and if people read that and really thought about it, I think it might help clear up some misgivings about these vaccines.  Your comments and advice I believe are very sound.

Despite great advances in science and medicine during the century since our last major pandemic, we are, if you take a look at the history, still hamstrung by our own shortcomings when attempting to negotiate our way through this one.

Most of us don't know enough about our own bodies and the basic ways disease processes work, so we are vulnerable to bad information and advice.  Add to this the proliferation of the internet, and the sound bite.  There is so much information out there, much of it unsound or with only a kernel of truth, easily mis-summarized one way or the other.  It is our responsibility to learn how to sift through that information and separate the wheat from the chaff.  One good way is to look at history. 

We've had anti-maskers before.  And lack of social distancing.  Notably during Spanish Influenza.  During that era, we weren't concerned about going to football games or concerts.  We were concerned about keeping a war effort going.  Did you know that Spanish Influenza killed more soldiers during WW I than the actual war did?   Civilians died because they got together and rolled bandages, working closely with no masks on, went out all over the countryside selling war bonds instead of staying home and protecting themselves.  Was the war more important than a party, football game or concert?  Totally.  But the result is still the same.  People prioritized something above preventing spread of the virus, and lots of people got sick and died as a result.  It's not rocket science.

The rights and freedoms crowd, I wonder if they know that during Spanish Influenza, it was customary for police to check church services to make sure they were operating with the windows open to aid circulation of fresh air to retard the spread of the virus, and that if they found a church not doing so, they were empowered to stop the service and disperse the crowd?  There is not one individual in this entire world whose rights and freedoms extend to the point of my nose, or that of anyone else.  The rights and freedoms crowd need to get some perspective.  The human race has survived as a species because we have learned that while individual rights and freedoms are one of the most important things in the world, sometimes those must be put into perspective and even abeyance for a time, for the greater good of the species.  This is one of those times.  If a person wants to exercise his rights, he must understand and be willing to discharge the responsibilities that come along with the territory of having rights.  You don't want to vaccinate yourself during a pandemic?  Fine, but if you want to go out, wear a mask, social distance, protect each other.  You don't want to wear a mask?  That's your prerogative, but STAY HOME!  Don't go wandering all over the universe.  And since there are other people more vulnerable than you perceive yourself to be or are being more careful than you, because we must protect them (elderly, infirm, children),  you may not be able to get/keep a job certain places unless you are willing to vax, because businesses must protect themselves.  The selfishness and lack of integrity of the human race during this time is an ugly sight.

A little common sense goes a long way too.  After the vaccine became available, we were told we were safe to hang out unmasked in groups with other vaxxed people.  Horrible, horrible advice.  Those that advocated that should lose their jobs IMO.  But, think logically.  There is such a thing as not darting into a place where even angels fear to tread.  Ain't no way in hell ViQueen goes near a crowd of allegedly flu-vaxxed people in the middle of flu season.  Why?  Cuz people lie about being vaxxed, and because vaxxes aren't 100%.  Common sense, right?  Where the hell has it gone?

Sorry, this has turned to a rant -- forgive me.  I am frustrated.  The French have a saying that heaven is other people, and hell is other people.  The fact is we could have been out of this pandemic by now if our political leaders had done the right things from the beginning, if as Chuck said, the messaging had been much better, and if we as citizens had done our part.  We all failed.  And we didn't have to.  There was enough history to learn from.  And we all have failed together.  Some of us will die, therefore, and some of us will live to pick up society and go on.  May you live in interesting times, indeed!

I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.
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