Bush: Military Will Be Used vs Civilians

First off, greetings everyone. I've been lurking in here for a while now and this topic finally nudged me into registering.

I have no doubt that the military will be used to "maintain order" by whatever means are necessary. Fortunately or not, depending on one's perspective, the manpower doesn't exist to do it nationwide. Those living in major population centers and strategic locations will see an undermanned military presence, the rest of us will be on our own.

This means that if this thing hits and it's as bad as it has the potential to be, many of us here will likely have to shoot someone before it's all over. Unpleasant and I'm not trying to be a misanthropic troll in my first post, but them's the facts as they say.

Further, if it's bad enough that the military is called in and subsequently overwhelmed nationwide then the world will be very different when it all settles. Far from losing our cherished civil liberties, we'll be thrust back to a condition closer to our ancestors and (to muse on politics for a moment) perhaps more in line with what the nation's Founders intended. The government doesn't have the resources now for effective repression in the face of widespread public opposition, after a pandemic they'll be impotent.

If it hits, it's gonna be bad. But afterwards we'll be okay. Constitution firmly intact unless we the People deliberately screw it up.

welcome Phaedrus, neat name.  I agree things will go back to normal after.

Thanks for the welcome siameselade.

It seems to me that afterwards, provided the pandemic is mild things could go back to where they are now. . . or they could revert somewhat to earlier forms, more local governance. Afterall, if the entire economy has to be restarted alot of red tape will cease to matter to anyone. Many laws will become moot with no one caring and not enough manpower to enforce them if they did.

I personally think that's a good thing, but if it comes to pass individual opinions of it won't count for much.

Welcome Phaedrus!  Love the name... wanted to name a girl (that I never had) Phaedra.  Also wanted to name my son Jedadiah, he's ever so grateful that I was over-ruled.

I look forward to your future contributions since your first were of great interest.

SZ

Why would you think that a pandemic would require less??

It's not a question of what's required but what's possible. In the case of Katrina, and while there were plenty of FUBAR's, the Feds can't really be expected to respond much faster than a couple days. That's what state and local government is for.

In a nationwide or global pandemic, forget it. Unless you live next to something important help ain't comin'.

And for the people that live in one of the areas that would get a military presence, all they'll be is another group of guys with guns and insufficient supplies. They'll conduct themselves well (probably) and do what they're ordered to do to help (which may be directly contradictory to what an individual wants done to them) but in the end any faith in the federal government to take care of this in the short-term is misplaced. They may be able to develop and distribute a cure or vaccine in several months time, but in the meantime help from on high will be scarce and wholly inadequate.

Sorry Phaedrus - I guess my post was unclear.

I was responding to those who are freaking out that the military would be assisting with the pandemic...

My point is pretty much that by that point - military help would be more than welcome by most.  However, I agree with you - the sad fact is that a pandemic that overwhelmed local & state first responders would probably overwhelm the federal government too.

We have to be prepared to fend for ourselves.  Unfortunately, we know that many will not be.

And they will be the ones sceaming the hardest for federal aid...

My view of government response is it won't be an "evil" response.  But the reponse will be geared to supporting and protecting the interests and property of the well connected and powerful.

Katrina was only a regional disaster.  But notice:

People sitting on rooftops and in know buildings in large numbers.  Response 2 days after Levees break:  "Really? Didn't know that! Well, We'll get to it when we can.  Can't say when."

Old disabled people drowning by the inch for 5 days, on a cel phone, location known, known to be alive and drowning.  Response:  "We'll get to it when we can.  Can't say when."

Ofetn exagerated reports of looting stores starts coming in:  "Scramble the multi-state National guard units and fly them in with orders to shoot to kill."  These troops often had no more than their own personal water or supplies (which they would give away) but carried little more than weapons and ammunition to help people desparately needing food water or medicine.  These supplies remained stockpiled 60 miles away.

The priorities are obvious.  This tells me what to expect.

Government mum amid salmonella outbreak
CDC: Public not alerted in 2004 despite 31 reports of poisoning

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The government declined to alert the public about suspect ground beef or request a recall after a 2004 salmonella outbreak that sickened at least 31 people nationwide, according to a report by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

The report, made public Wednesday by food safety advocates, said the Agriculture Department traced illnesses in nine states -- Colorado, Kansas, Minnesota, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Ohio, Tennessee and Wisconsin -- and Washington, D.C., to a national supermarket chain and a single meat processing plant.

The department decided no action was needed because the plant was following federal guidelines. The CDC did not name the plant or supermarket chain. A separate report from the Minnesota Department of Health referred to the chain as a member-only warehouse.

Unlike E. coli and listeria, salmonella in raw meat is not an "adulterant" under federal guidelines. That is because people are expected to cook raw meat before they eat it, and cooking kills salmonella.

Many of those who fell ill said they ate undercooked ground beef or tasted the beef while cooking it.

Department spokesman Steven Cohen said officials did a full investigation and were prepared to act on any problems at the plant. "We didn't find problems," Cohen said.

That's not much comfort for people who got sick, said Carol Tucker Foreman, director of food policy for Consumer Federation of America.

"Nobody died, but 31 people ... got sick from eating this product, and I can tell you, not one of them thought that it was their best day on earth," Foreman said. "This is not just a bellyache."

Salmonella is a bacteria that causes diarrhea, fever and abdominal cramps and in some cases requires hospitalization.

It can be deadly unless infected people are treated right away with antibiotics. Of the estimated 1.4 million cases of salmonella each year in the United States, about 400 people die, according to CDC.

Foreman and other food safety advocates called attention Wednesday to the report on the outbreak that was issued by CDC late last month. They said the department could have taken steps to prevent more people from getting sick but chose not to.

"They never announced this outbreak," said Donna Rosenbaum of Safe Tables Our Priority. "I would guess there are a number of cases of this that could have been avoided. It ran from August to October, so this was in people's refrigerators and in their freezers."

She noted that many cases of food poisoning go unreported; CDC estimates there are 39 cases of unreported illness for every one case that is reported.

While the department lacks legal authority to recall meat, it can ask companies to do recalls. No company has ever refused a recall request.

The department has issued alerts involving salmonella before. For example, a news release last year said that several salmonella infections in the Midwest were linked to stuffed and breaded frozen chicken entrees. The announcement pointed out the food needed to be fully cooked to be safe.

Alerts have also been issued about drug-resistant forms of the salmonella bacteria.

"Although salmonella is not considered an adulterant in raw ground beef, we do a great deal of outreach to help consumers understand how to handle and cook their meat and poultry to avoid chances of becoming ill," Cohen said.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

Now, I posted a news article from September which indicated how people were upset that there was not military intervention earlier to help out the victims of Katrina.  And they were very happy with the young men and women who serve in the military when they got there - I heard no reports that the military did anything but help.

That's a good point and I for one certainly wouldn't dispute. I'm sure that any military intervention during a BF pandemic would be greatly appreciated by the majority of the hapless populace.

I'd be buggin' out to avoid being disarmed and sent to a shelter, but for most folks the prospect would start looking real good.

From my reading of Bruss' post I think his concern is that every time we reinforce that precedent we imperil ourselves. If the country descends into chaos the vast bulk of the population will be clamoring for any help and the military will do what little it can to provide it on that scale. But those in charge will demand a certain amount of risk management, it won't just be soldiers going door to soor handing out food with a smile. They won't be "evil" at all, but the (remnants of) civil rights we're accustomed too won't exist either.

And a large population of people grateful for the government telling them what to do and giving them stuff is not a recipe for a free nation. It doesn't mean that there's some evil mastermind pulling the strings to create a dictatorship, but power accruing to the top is simply the nature of the beast. Whatever the case, I'll rely on myself rather than the ability and good intentions of others.

Kind of a moot point anyway, in a pandemic the military won't have the manpower to give aid or oppress regardless of the intentions of those giving the orders.

Phaedrus, welcome aboard. Let me put in my 2 cents worth. When we ealk about the govt. as this entity we forget that it's made up of people. A lot of our experiences will vary from region to region depending on the local commander, whether civilian or military. We saw what happened in No as soon as General Honore arrived on the scene.

Unfortunately, the current command structure is based on following the book, nice and safe, and not about field expediency and get the mission done.

Clearly, our available millitary force is too small to quarantine even one state, never mind a number or most of our big cities. The best we can hope for, that they can block off the highways and being able to escort food and medical delivery trucks.

The first wave of the BF is supposed to last from 6-12 weeks as it works its way thru a region, so for that time at least, we need to be able to hunker down and stay "off the radar", so to speak.