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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Tracking the next pandemic: Avian Flu Talk

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    Posted: April 28 2006 at 6:48am
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oknut View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oknut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 7:00am
I've wondered that myself Survivor.

I recently saw a commercial here in Oklahoma about how Oklahoma is careful about the application of poultry based fertilizer to not contaminate the soil and water.

Guess there is a long term, ongoing battle between Arkansas and Oklahoma about polluting water.

If poultry feces make up fertilizer, I would wonder about the safely of crops fertilized with infected feces. Maybe whatever method they use to create the fertilzer would kill any viruses. I don't know.

Perhaps someone here knows something about the production of fertilzer.
    

Edited by oknut - April 28 2006 at 7:01am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote P_S_N Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 7:14am
I already don't buy anything from Mexico. Too many times when I have in the past I have gotten sick. Ouch It's bad enough we have so many Mexican migrants and illegals coming here working and too often I have seen (and reported) them urinating in the fields or behind some bush if they are doing landscape maintenance. GROSS! Now they are trying to say we need them in the US to do the jobs Americans won't do and they are even planning this big boycot for Monday. Personally I think we should have a boycott of our own. Many of the Mexican's crossing America's border think they have a right to cross illegally and to make matters worse their government is encouraging the invasion.

I say lets prove to these people and their employers the power of America's citizens. On May 5th I think ALL American citizens shold boycott any business that employs Mexicans. No matter if they have a green card, are illegals, or are simply American citizens of Mexican descent supporting the relaxation of our country's immigration laws.

If there is a business that employs even one Mexican DO NOT do any business with that company on Friday, May 5, 2006!

DO NOT go to work if your employer also employs any Mexicans whether they are legal or not.

If you school allows these people to get away with not attending school so they can protest May 1st, then DO NOT attend school on Friday May 5, 2006 to protest that action.

DO NOT attend ANY Cinco de Mayo celebrations.

DO NOT eat ANY Mexican food or purchase any products made in Mexico.

Lets prove to them that America is strong and we do not need them in our country as much as they want to believe we need them! Star

Now enough of my soapbox. Sorry but my son has lost two jobs recently to Mexicans. I am kind of fed up with the present situation.
"When the last individual of a race of living things breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again."
William Beebe, 1906
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oknut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 7:59am
Thanks Survivor!

Looking at that pdf file is frightening. Apparently we are feeding bird crap to nearly all of our livestock.

Exerpt from document:

Pathogenic Bacteria

Poultry wastes are potential sources of pathogenic
microorganisms. However, a recent report in which 86 samples of
poultry litter obtained in Georgia (USA) were analyzed for the
presence of pathogens indicates that even prior to processing,
the presence of pathogenic microorganisms is not a serious
problem (Martin and McCann, 1996). No Salmonella or E. coli were
isolated from any of the 86 samples. Martin and McCann (1996)
concluded that poultry litter does not appear to be a source of
harmful microorganisms when fed to beef cattle.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buzz1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 8:01am
And now back to our subject.  Pathogenic bacteria can be taken in via the roots of a tomato plant and be deposited in the tomato itself.  That has baan proven by U. GA. researchers working for Dr. Michael P. Doyle.  With that said then we can expect that viruses can also be expected to be taken up too.   The unknown factor is the ability for the virus to survive in the acid interior of a tomato during the transit and storage time it takes to get to the store shelf and to you.  I personally do not believe that the virus could survive that.  I don't think they are that hardy.
 
We do know there have been hepatitis A outbreaks documented as having occurred as a result of contaminated produce from Mexico but that was believed to have been surface contamination by infected Mexican produce workers.  The FDA halted the importation of the onions untill they were satisfied that the Mexican Government had introduced adequate controls to prevent recurrances of the problem.  That whole event is a very sore issue between the US and Mexico.  Mexico disagreed with the epidemiologic results of the outbreak investigation and the trace back of the produce to Mexico.  But we took the action anyway.  We were confident in the data.
 
On a wider note the FDA has issued guidelines called "GAPS" Good Agriculture Practices for produce growers you can see them at  http://www.foodsafety.gov/~dms/prodguid.html  Produce growers, both domestic and foreign are aware of them.  The basic problem is that here we expect to eat our produce raw.  We view it as healthy.  In places like China they think we are nuts.  In their culture they know they must cook their produce because otherwise you get sick.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oknut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 8:07am
Here's a site where you can search by waste ingredients to see which commercial products contain chicken litter or chicken manure

http://apps.ecy.wa.gov/fertilizer/index.html
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I like my vegetables fresh and crispy, but everything will HAVE to be fully cooked once the pandemic is underway. Besides that, I won't be going out shopping!!
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I try to get organic home produced veg and fruit (where possible of course). I do it for the farmers not the bird poo though. I wash everything first anyway. Dont think I need to worry about that one.
Inscriptions and Birddroppings are the only two things in Egypt that give any indication of life - Flaubert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oknut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 9:00am
I have really been naive or ignorant - depending on how you want to look at it.

I honestly didn't realize that most of the meat we purchase and consume has been fed a diet that consists in part of other animal feces.
No wonder it's no longer safe to have a nice juicy hamburger cooked medium or medium rare.

I may actually become an involuntary vegetarian yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buzz1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 9:27am
Though I am unaware of the authorative guru on the subject of thermal death times for the influenza virus (not my area) here is a chart for "Human viruses - most species" which should suffice.  http://www.olymed.com/pasteurmatic/thermal_death_times.htm
On a happy note the temprature they have listed is only 140 degrees F.  Steam is a good deal hotter (depending on your altitude of course) but for most of us, unless you live in the Andes or the Alps, steaming would be 200 F or more and so your cook time would be shortened to a few minutes.  
 
Gravitation:  Organically produced vegetables can harbour pathogens, especially if the manure used to fertalize them was not composted.  I am a little leary of composting as a means of destroying all pathogens too since I know that the effectiveness of the process is dependent on the operator. 
 
As far as washing goes there is no data that indicates that washing is truly effective at removing ALL pathogens.  Since the infective dose for some pathogens is very low (2 to 10 bacterial cells in the case of E. coli O157:H7 and Shigella) washing just won't give you a 100% assurance that your produce is pathogen free.  And that is beside the fact that these pathogens can be taken into the interior of the produce where washing has no effect.
 
I work in a world where we are concerned with 100% assurance levels.  I realize that the world does not work that way and we all rely on the roll of the dice in our day to day lives, dilution factors and all that.  I just wanted to be sure everyone understood the science behind what we are dealing with.
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I was wondering about the spray that they sell in the produce dept. for cleaning veggies & fruits .... I haven't purchased it, but I think I'll take a look-see to check it out.  Has anyone used that, or know anything about it?? -k  (geeze, there are just so many sides to this BF story .... so much to think about!!)Confused
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gravitation Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 10:06am
buzz1, I appreciate your concern. I will though, not live in a sterile world where food is concerned. I'll cook, wash and eat it. Bring on the medium rare steaks is my attitude. Life is too short. thanks again.
Inscriptions and Birddroppings are the only two things in Egypt that give any indication of life - Flaubert
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote buzz1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 10:07am
ReadyMom,
The product is no more effective than washing your produce with a mild detergent and water.  (Be sure and rince thoroughly.)  I wouldn't waste my prep money on it.  Better to spend it on food or ammo.
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I don't know about foreign produce, doesn't sound to good, however I always disinfect all my produce.
 
All you need is two SPRAY BOTTLES. One filled with VINEGAR, and one filled with HYDROGEN PEROXIDE. Spray fruit with one, it doesn't maker which, then without rinsing, spray with the next. Use enough of both to soak the fruit or vegetables. Then rinse with fresh water. I always do vinegar 1st, then hydrogen peroxide 2nd. That way some of the vinegar is washed away with the hydrogen peroxide. JUST DO NOT MIX THEM in one bottle. To kill 100% of the pathogens, you need to spay them separately. I do this with all my fruits and veggies. Works great!!!! Can be used to disinfect areas also. 
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I don't have time for a detailed post, but flu viruses are going to be mostly a temporary problem on the surface of foods.  Not only are they easily killed with heat, also their membrane is easily harmed by soap or acidic environments.  Flu is not well protected before it gets into our cells.  So washing fruits/ veggies with even dilute soap and then a rinse will get almost all of virus off.  Still not reliable if you know there is fresh bird droppings!  Fertilizer that was older would be less risky, presuming there had been enough air exposure to dry and kill viruses.  Acidic fertilizers would perhaps be a bad environment for flu survival.
 
The fact bacteria can get into plants does not have much relevance for most viruses.  Viruses can't start doing anything until they get into a cell.  They cannot cross cell membranes except for vulnerable tissues in vulnerable species.  In humans for instance, H5N1 cannot get through any cell membrane unless that cell has in it some enzymes that assist the virus in getting through the membrane.  Most human cells do not have this enzyme, it is in cells in lower resp. tract, part of digestive system.  (Digestive system would probably have to have lots of virus ingested, as stomach acid would kills lots of virus).
 
There was a article about a study that showed that vinegar potentiates the viral killing capacity of bleach.  Research author recommended 1 part bleach, 1 part vinegar to 10 parts water. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Gimme Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 28 2006 at 10:48am
oknut
"I honestly didn't realize that most of the meat we purchase and consume has been fed a diet that consists in part of other animal feces. "
~~~~
 
UGH!!! Well, like "they" say, once its cooks, all the impurities and infectious diseases are gone, (not sure if that includes Mad Cow tho). 
 
Salad sounds really good right now.
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