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PANDEMIC ALERT LEVEL
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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Ian Lipkin (CRS Buddy) and Fauci Blood on Hands?

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interwebber View Drop Down
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    Posted: May 02 2020 at 10:56pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6y8dlhoMpo

Do yourself a favor and watch the video before replying... Just remember... Who told us masks don't work...? And who on this forum exhibits integrity vs ideological rigidity? Gotta say I don't trust "experts" on this forum as far as I could throw them. Be safe!


If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2020 at 11:38pm

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6y8dlhoMpo

Do yourself a favor and watch the video before replying... Just remember... Who told us masks don't work...? And who on this forum exhibits integrity vs ideological rigidity? Gotta say I don't trust "experts" on this forum as far as I could throw them. Be safe!


You talkin' to me?   

Masks DON'T work to protect you from COVID-19 in public.   They are somewhat effective in minimizing the snot and drool from the hoi polloi from shooting virus particles across the air with their constant coughing and sneezing, but the consumption of hospital-grade PPE for magical thinking infuriates me to no end.  If you want a mask, make one out of a bandana.  

As far as that junk YouTube video, thanks.  It is possible that SARS-CoV2 was a wild-type bat virus that escaped from (or was released from) the Wuhan virology lab....this type of thing has happened many times in the past, including the escape of smallpox virus from a lab in the UK that killed a person.  However, it is unlikely that this was a deliberate plot of the Chinese or anyone else.  I'll wait for further evidence of that, which will likely not be found. 

BTW, I don't know Ian Lipkin.  



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kaye kaye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 4:03am

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6y8dlhoMpo

Do yourself a favor and watch the video before replying... Just remember... Who told us masks don't work...? And who on this forum exhibits integrity vs ideological rigidity? Gotta say I don't trust "experts" on this forum as far as I could throw them. Be safe!


You talkin' to me?   

Masks DON'T work to protect you from COVID-19 in public.   They are somewhat effective in minimizing the snot and drool from the hoi polloi from shooting virus particles across the air with their constant coughing and sneezing, but the consumption of hospital-grade PPE for magical thinking infuriates me to no end.  If you want a mask, make one out of a bandana.  

As far as that junk YouTube video, thanks.  It is possible that SARS-CoV2 was a wild-type bat virus that escaped from (or was released from) the Wuhan virology lab....this type of thing has happened many times in the past, including the escape of smallpox virus from a lab in the UK that killed a person.  However, it is unlikely that this was a deliberate plot of the Chinese or anyone else.  I'll wait for further evidence of that, which will likely not be found. 

BTW, I don't know Ian Lipkin.  



I agree with you about the mask, people act like they are magic.  I'm sure there are people on this forum that can wear correctly , but most people aren't like you guys.  I do know China closed Wuhan down and let their citizens fly to other countries causing the virus to spread.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 4:28am

I'm going to argue with both of you, Chuck and Interwebber.


Masks are a great idea.  Because infecting other people is evil.  

Keep your bugs to yourself as much as you can.  That is just plain good manners.  Masks, scarves, bandanas etc. all work for that and consequentyly drop infection rates.  They probably INCREASE* your personal risk, but overall infection rates drop.



If you want personal protection, don't go near anyone!  Absolutely no other protocol works half as well.  Even the best masks have limitations.  That is why so many medics get sick!  NONE OF THEM STOP ALL VIRUS PARTICLES, ONLY A PERCENTAGE!

If you must mingle - keep it brief, wash your hands, keep your distance, don't touch your face, wear an N95 mask or an FFP3 - WITH GOGGLES - Put it on with care to seal it properly and carefully observe all infection protocols when taking it off.  If it has an exhalation valve, be polite, wear a surgical mask/scarf/bandana on top.  Remember to disinfect EVERYTHING you wore.  It can only protect you as part of a rigid set of equipment and protocols.  Break protocol and they are worse than useless.


Masks do slow the community spread, but only the best types protect the wearer and then only if used correctly, WITH RIGID ADHERENCE TO THE RULES!

The longer you have it on for, the more likely you are to make a mistake or grow complacent.  Stay away from other people!




* Because they harbour the bugs they caught and people don't use infection control measures when taking them off or washing them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 1:34pm

At some point, folks will realize that a significant portion of transmission is from fecal/oral route, not respiratory.   Fecal/oral might even be the primary route.  That is why all the meat-plant workers are catching it, they are giving it to one another via  bathrooms & lunchrooms, NOT by working closely on the processing lines.  (I consult to poultry & meat operations like ConAgra). 

https://www.clinicaladvisor.com/home/topics/gastroenterology-information-center/diarrhea-covid19-oral-fecal-transmission-route/

The fact that diarrhea is a symptom in the disease course of some patients with 2019 novel coronavirus disease (COVID-19) highlights the importance of adhering to preventative measures to control orofecal transmission between patients and healthcare workers. This is according to a review published in Clinical Gastroenterology and Hepatology.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 1:39pm

Ok so that makes me sick Chuck...don't people wash their hands well after going to the bathroom working in a FOOD plant or in a hospital?     Ugh GROSS!

My son now has to wear a mask due to the fact 2 managers have Covid.  He calls me and says "F^^K Mom"  I am touching my face more with the stupid mask on than ever before!  All this is necessary to keep people from spreading virus but please get masks that fit!!!  My son had to take what was given to him.  Got to talk to him today about masks and how to wear!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Flubergasted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 3:41pm

I have a hard time believing that healthcare workers are that abysmal at handwashing during Covid 19, that fecal oral is a significant route of transmission for them.  I, sadly, get your point regarding meat processing plants in some respects. The workers there may not be the best educated folks.  

Yet, I find myself doubting that handwashing is not taking place.  The work they do is so messy.  Fat and blood sticking to your gloves, sweating inside those gloves...no. They wash their hands a lot, just like I would... because gross. Nobody is walking around like that when they go on break.  There has to be some policy about handwashing before returning to the line.  No reputable business wants their products tied to a C. DIFF situation.  So, sorry, not believing this.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2020 at 6:00pm

From nearly 23 years in a food service location, let me just tell you ALL folks are crappy at hand washing, especially customers..  Less than 20% wash them long enough, and epic fail on thoroughly enough.  That is why even though a lot of folks are quick to point fingers at food handlers, ain't very many of them that have any room to talk...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2020 at 2:04pm

Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Ok so that makes me sick Chuck...don't people wash their hands well after going to the bathroom working in a FOOD plant or in a hospital?     Ugh GROSS!

My son now has to wear a mask due to the fact 2 managers have Covid.  He calls me and says "F^^K Mom"  I am touching my face more with the stupid mask on than ever before!  All this is necessary to keep people from spreading virus but please get masks that fit!!!  My son had to take what was given to him.  Got to talk to him today about masks and how to wear!


Exactly.  The food processing environment is super-wet (water is constantly spraying from nozzles and hoses, and the air is cold & super-saturated), so I doubt that droplet nuclei from humans has much of a chance to spread very far. 

I work with the poultry industry in Minnesota, most of those workers are either Hispanic, Hmong (Asian) or, lately, Somali immigrants.  They don't speak English well, and don't understand principles of social distancing etc.  These folks live two to three families in a single house, drive to work together in crowded cars, work like slaves for sub-standard wages, and do it all over again, 5 days/week plus overtime.  It is heartbreaking, but these are the only jobs they can find.  Americans don't want these jobs, they are horrible. 

As far as hand hygiene, once a person goes No. 2 and wipes butt, you have to flush the loo and open the stall door.  CONTAMINATION.  Then, you have to turn on the sink and use soap.  CONTAMINATION.  After all of this, you must dry hands and leave the bathroom.  CONTAMINATION.  I'm hospital-trained in infection control and know exactly how to minimize contamination and avoid these surfaces, but most folks just touch & grab away.  

Beef plants are worse than poultry, they are very dangerous.  The "kill floor" is where live cattle are killed with a blow to the head by a special hammer, and then they are bled, disemboweled, and carved up.  Workers wear heavy chain-mail vests, use razor-sharp knives three feet long, and work at a breakneck speed.  There is blood, guts and water everywhere.  Pork plants are the worst of all. 

I'd go 100% vegetarian but I like certain meats too much, if Beyond Meat or other companies become more cost-effective, I'll go that way.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 04 2020 at 11:00pm

The link is long gone, but there was a report from one UK meat processing firm stating that among the costs related to keeping a plant safe in the time of Coronavirus they would have "to pay the staff enough for them to be willing to follow the safety rules".   


I guess that if we want more safety in meat handling we will have to expect the costs to rise.   If we as consumers demand the cheap meat then processing companies need to cut costs.   While I want to blame processing firms, I know that I am part of the problem.    A local farmer supplies the local shop with meat - grass feed beef etc, but it is about three times more expensive than the mass produced stuff, which gives an idea of what costs could rise to if we need to move away from the massive processing plants.    


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 12:48am

Originally posted by EdwinSm, EdwinSm, wrote:

The link is long gone, but there was a report from one UK meat processing firm stating that among the costs related to keeping a plant safe in the time of Coronavirus they would have "to pay the staff enough for them to be willing to follow the safety rules".   

I guess that if we want more safety in meat handling we will have to expect the costs to rise.   If we as consumers demand the cheap meat then processing companies need to cut costs.   While I want to blame processing firms, I know that I am part of the problem.    A local farmer supplies the local shop with meat - grass feed beef etc, but it is about three times more expensive than the mass produced stuff, which gives an idea of what costs could rise to if we need to move away from the massive processing plants.    

Thank you, this is a very well-thought-out post.  

You are exactly correct on all counts.  The line workers in these plants are basically indentured servants like in the old days of factory towns in the USA, they cannot afford to leave the job since they have no other employment prospects, and are literally worked to death. 

These workers are in the mold of past American immigrants - my grandparents came to America from Slovakia in the early 1900s, and made their way to the giant Hormel packing houses in Chicago.  

The children of these immigrant workers often excel in school, causing resentment among the native white populations in Georgia, Minnesota, Wisconsin etc.  In St. Cloud MN, the town now has many black Africans from Somalia, and their women wear long Islamic dress and full face veils.  Needless to say, the old-time German and Norwegian residents are not entirely comfortable with this.  

Indeed, the era of cheap meat is likely going to go away, and this is likely for the better for humanity.  Confined animal feedlot operations (CAFO) are some of the worse polluting industries, and the greenhouse gases from manure are a major source of climate change.  COVID-19 seem likely to cause many fundamental changes to society; if we live long enough, we may appreciate them.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 2:23pm

 

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:


I'd go 100% vegetarian but I like certain meats too much, if Beyond Meat or other companies become more cost-effective, I'll go that way.  


I went veggie in 1984, Chuck, back when meat alternatives were thin on the ground, expensive and not particularly appetizing. I finally went all in and turned vegan 32 years ago and haven’t looked back. My doctor told me I was too healthy for my age last time I saw him, so given that I don’t exercise I must be doing something right. Had to happen at some point  





"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 5:11pm

Sorry but my mom is 97 and eats meat so some do well eating meat.  Vegan is just too much thinking to make all that food with only veggies and it does not taste the same.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jacksdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 05 2020 at 5:39pm

It’s like anything else, FluMom - after all this time, if I was to switch back to eating roadkill (sorry - veggie humor... ) I’d probably have to rethink how and what to cook in the same way as anyone going vegetarian or vegan.
Contrary to popular belief, skipping the meat doesn’t mean it doesn’t taste good. There seems to be a misconception that every meal is akin to wearing a hair shirt and suffering for our convictions. You just have to learn to work with new ingredients. It was something I felt was totally worth the adjustment.
For me, it was an ethical choice that seems to have added health benefits. I’ll be 60 sooner than I’d like, but the only meds I regularly take are drops for an inherited eye condition. I doubt many of my old school friends (the ones that have made it this far) can say the same.



"Buy it cheap. Stack it deep"
"Any community that fails to prepare, with the expectation that the federal government will come to the rescue, will be tragically wrong." Michael Leavitt, HHS Secretary.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 06 2020 at 6:32am

I take a low dose anti-inflammatory only, and that is due to damage (cars, horses, climbing, even getting shot - only an air rifle - but a high power one - it cut tendons).  I'm 60 in October.  I often eat veggie and vegan, for health and variety.  I keep the meat down, the red meat way down and adore fish.  For ethical reasons I will not eat halal.  Death comes to all  life, it's inevitable; being tortured is not.

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