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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic since 2005; Coronavirus COVID-19 Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Its Airborne - Surgical Masks don't work

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Kilt5 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Its Airborne - Surgical Masks don't work
    Posted: January 15 2021 at 12:49pm

This is deeply worrying


This bug has gone Airborne in Australia and possibly other places.


Our worst nightmare has just arrived.


TSHTF


Experts call on Federal Government to acknowledge possible airborne transmission of COVID-19 in hotel quarantine
Failure at a federal level to acknowledge COVID-19 is transmitted through the air has been putting the community at risk, senior scientists, health and safety experts and doctors have told the ABC.
Leading scientists said the virus could be leaking through our border controls because authorities have not put in place precautions that provide the greatest possible protection from airborne transmission.
In recent days, the Federal Government's health advisors have considered updating their advice on the airborne nature of the virus, the ABC can reveal.
The Infection Control Experts Group (ICEG) met on Wednesday this week, for the first time in 2021.
Professor Lyn Gilbert said the group would "be updating advice", particularly in light of the arrival of the highly transmissible UK COVID-19 variant.
"The ICEG has always acknowledged that SARS-CoV-2 can spread via aerosol transmission under [some] conditions, but evidence suggested that this was relatively uncommon," she said.
"It is likely that the frequency of such transmission is increased with the more transmissible strain."
The group will soon send its updated advice to the chief medical officers across the country.
Previous advice excluded COVID-19 airborne spread in hotel quarantine
The ICEG recognises the possibility COVID-19 can spread through the air in "clinical settings", such as when a patient is being intubated.
But the group, which advises health authorities on infection control, has not acknowledged it could be a problem elsewhere in the community, including in hotel quarantine.
Occupational Hygienist Kate Cole, who assesses workplace environmental risk, said that narrow definition was not strong enough.
She said the group needed to acknowledge people infected with coronavirus can contaminate the air indoors.
"Aerosols that emit when we cough or breathe or talk actually stay in the air and then move by air currents in the space we occupy," she said.
"Because we haven't, as a country, acknowledged airborne transmission outside of those incredibly narrowly defined areas … we're leaving ourselves open to the continued outbreaks from hotel quarantine, which arguably could be stopped in its tracks."
Professor Lidia Morawska, an aerosol physicist, said allowing coronavirus to spread through the air in our quarantine system was the chink in our armour.
"It's exhaled by people during all respiratory activities, which [means] from breathing, speaking, coughing or sneezing," she said.
"It gets into the air and the majority of the particles carrying the virus in the air are sufficiently small that they can float in the air for a sufficiently long time to be inhaled by others."
Most of the outbreaks in the past few months have originated in hotels, which Professor Morawska described as "very dangerous".
Catch up on the main COVID-19 news from January 15 with our coronavirus blog.
She would like to see federal health authorities take control of the situation by getting hotels to guard against airborne transmission.
"There should be national guidelines, standards about this, and all the facilities, all the hotels should adhere to this," she said.
Australia's mandated 14-day hotel quarantine period is among the strictest COVID-19 border policies in the world, and protocols for those arriving are very tough, but there are renewed calls for a focus on the personal protective equipment (PPE) of hotel and border workers.
For every 191 cases of COVID-19 found in hotel quarantine, one escapes into the community
Since the start of November until Thursday night, Australia's hotel quarantine system had caught 765 positive cases of COVID-19.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 1:37pm

It always was airborne; it's a coronavirus; they all are.

This still does not make it a slate-wiper.  But it does make the need for vaccines WORLDWIDE very urgent.

https://www.avianflutalk.com/from-viroglogy-fact-of-the-day_topic41285_post287739.html?KW=airborne#287739

This does not mean masks do not work.  Neither do they prevent the spread of coronavirus.  They LIMIT its spread.



Although coronaviruses are around 1.1 microns and the gaps in between the filter in a mask are way larger that, due to brownian motion - which bounces them around and up against the sides of holes, most of them end up stuck in the fibres anyway - the downside of those sticky protein spikes - from the virus's viewpoint.

If you are unlucky enough to get the disease anyway, masks can reduce the severity of the infection, as the small number of viral particles encountered at the outset, gives the immune system time to mount a good defence.

The few that do get through are USUALLY mopped up by the person's immune system.  It takes a LOT  of viral particles to cause an infection. They also massively reduce the number of viral particles transmitted to other people than the wearer by the same means.

So, although masks are not perfect at PREVENTING transmission, they do drop the R0.  This makes them a useful tool in LIMITING spread, but not one you should rely on alone.



https://www.atzlabs.com/pdf/Airborne-microbe-list.pdf

Believers don't need proof and sceptics won't accept proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 1:44pm

And PLEASE use MASKS !!!!!!

They are part of the NPI-approach together with (more) social distancing, getting groceries delivered etc...masks can decrease viral loads. Masks work !!!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 2:37pm

It was droplet not airborne

Now people are catching this bug who never meet or come in any form of contact - and the virus is going through the airconditioning.

This is new and disturbing.


The airborne virus means Masks will do little to protect people


A major investigation is underway into what caused the cluster that's so far infected four returned travellers at the hotel, as well as a hotel cleaner and her partner.

'Surgical masks don't cut it'

Dr Allen said the current protocols in place paled in comparison with the standards upheld in the private sector, and that the use of surgical masks was ineffective.

"For instance, workers operating a machine that sweeps dust at a factory would be wearing a P2 fit-tested respirator for just dust, but we have healthcare workers dealing with COVID-19 issued with surgical masks," Dr Allen said....

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-15/coronavirus-covid-hotel-grand-chancellor-airborne-transmission/13054652

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carbon20 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 3:34pm

NOT THE FFFFFING MASK STORY AGAIN.........round and round we go ......

The definition of insanity is repeating .... repeating..... repeating.....

Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth.🖖

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 5:25pm

Originally posted by carbon20 carbon20 wrote:

NOT THE FFFFFING MASK STORY AGAIN.........round and round we go ......

The definition of insanity is repeating .... repeating..... repeating.....


No this is new


this virus has just gone airborne and can infect others through air conditioning - therefore surgical masks on people not infected will not work - non infected people need duckbill virus masks


All this has just happened in Australia - in the last 2 days

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 6:33pm

“The single biggest threat to man's continued dominance on this planet is the virus,” Nobel Prize-winning biologist Joshua Lederberg

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 15 2021 at 8:45pm

Kilt5-with all respect-can you stop it please ? 

The newer variants most likely can be lighter then the "older" variant-because it deleted some segments (69/70 a.o.). The problem in the Australia story was-as far as I did see-in the ventilation of the hotel. Maybe the airco-filters are not stopping the virus enough. Some particles may come through those filters...

Since it is impossible to vaccinate ALL the people around the globe in just one week or month the BEST protection may be in shielding from the virus. By using masks, social distancing etc. 

The hotel-story resembles the cruiseships story, or other appartmentbuilding stories-the ventilation is the main part. New variants could be a bit smaller and lighter therefore spread more easier or keep hanging in the air..

Panic is not helping !

With all respect-DJ

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kilt5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 4:29am

So this is only hours old - it is new.


B

y

 

national medical reporter Sophie Scott and the Specialist Reporting Team's Mary Lloyd and Emily Clark


Senior atmospheric and aerosol scientists say there is no doubt COVID-19 is transmitted through the air 

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-01-16/hotel-quarantine-gap-prevent-airborne-spread-of-covid-19/13057644

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 5:17am

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_transmission[/url] or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airborne_transmission ;

An airborne transmission is disease transmission through small particulates that can be transmitted through the air over time and distance.[2] Diseases capable of airborne transmission include many of considerable importance both in human and veterinary medicine. The relevant pathogens may be virusesbacteria, or fungi, and they may be spread through breathing, talking, coughing, sneezing, raising of dust, spraying of liquids, flushing toilets, or any activities which generate aerosol particles or droplets. Human airborne diseases do not include conditions caused by air pollution such as volatile organic compounds (VOCs), gases and any airborne particles.

Airborne transmission is distinct from transmission by respiratory droplets. Respiratory droplets are large enough to fall to the ground rapidly after being produced,[3] as opposed to the smaller particles that carry airborne pathogens. Also, while respiratory droplets consist mostly of water, airborne particles are relatively dry, which damages many pathogens so that their ability to transmit infection is lessened or eliminated. Thus the number of pathogens that can be transmitted through an airborne route is limited.[4][5][6]

Both aerosols and respiratory droplets are part of the respiratory route of transmitting communicable diseases. Individuals generate aerosols and droplets across a wide range of sizes and concentrations, and the amount produced varies widely by person and activity.[7] Larger droplets, greater than 100 μm fall to the ground, and settle within 2 m, except when propelled.[7][3] Smaller particles can carry airborne pathogens for extended periods of time. There is a greater concentration of airborne pathogens within 2m, however they can travel farther and build up in concentration in a room.

The traditional hard size cutoff of 5 μm between airborne and respiratory droplets has been criticized as a false dichotomy not grounded in science, as exhaled particles form a continuum of sizes whose fates depend on environmental conditions in addition to their initial sizes. However, it has informed hospital based transmission based precautions for decades.[7] Recent data on indoor respiratory secretion transfer suggest that droplets/aerosols in the 20 μm size range initially travel with the air flow from cough jets and air conditioning like aerosols but fall out gravitationally at a larger distance;[8] as this size range is most efficiently filtered out in the nasal mucosa,[9] the primordial infection site in Covid-19, aerosols/droplets in this size range may contribute to driving the Covid-19 pandemic.

DJ-If Covid19 is gone airborne did the virus change that much that it would be able to do so ? Respitory spread is water-mixed...

[url]https://www.healthline.com/health/airborne-diseases#types[/url] or https://www.healthline.com/health/airborne-diseases#types ;

While the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 is not generally considered to be airborne, there may be some situationsTrusted Source in which the virus can act like an airborne disease. These include certain clinical settings in which people are receiving intensive medical treatment. In usual situations, SARS-CoV-2 is spread through respiratory droplets after a person coughs or sneezes, but these droplets are larger than what is considered airborne.

DJ Could it be a matter of definition is the difference/border not that clear ? [url]https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/modes-of-transmission-of-virus-causing-covid-19-implications-for-ipc-precaution-recommendations[/url] or https://www.who.int/news-room/commentaries/detail/modes-of-transmission-of-virus-causing-covid-19-implications-for-ipc-precaution-recommendations

Modes of transmission of the COVID-19 virus

Respiratory infections can be transmitted through droplets of different sizes: when the droplet particles are >5-10 μm in diameter they are referred to as respiratory droplets, and when then are <5μm in diameter, they are referred to as droplet nuclei.1 According to current evidence, COVID-19 virus is primarily transmitted between people through respiratory droplets and contact routes.2-7 In an analysis of 75,465 COVID-19 cases in China, airborne transmission was not reported.7

-

Airborne transmission is different from droplet transmission as it refers to the presence of microbes within droplet nuclei, which are generally considered to be particles <5μm in diameter, can remain in the air for long periods of time and be transmitted to others over distances greater than 1 m. 

 In the context of COVID-19, airborne transmission may be possible in specific circumstances and settings in which procedures or support treatments that generate aerosols are performed; i.e., endotracheal intubation, bronchoscopy, open suctioning, administration of nebulized treatment, manual ventilation before intubation, turning the patient to the prone position, disconnecting the patient from the ventilator, non-invasive positive-pressure ventilation, tracheostomy, and cardiopulmonary resuscitation. 

So so far Covid19 was not supposed to be airborne. Allthough I am not an expert (as most of us) could it be possible mutations made this virus-at least some variants-"more airborne" ? From "your "article Kilt-5 ; 

"Aerosols that emit when we cough or breathe or talk actually stay in the air and then move by air currents in the space we occupy," she said.

"Because we haven't, as a country, acknowledged airborne transmission outside of those incredibly narrowly defined areas … we're leaving ourselves open to the continued outbreaks from hotel quarantine, which arguably could be stopped in its tracks."

Professor Lidia Morawska, an aerosol physicist, said allowing coronavirus to spread through the air in our quarantine system was the chink in our armour.

"It gets into the air and the majority of the particles carrying the virus in the air are sufficiently small that they can float in the air for a sufficiently long time to be inhaled by others."

DJ-Since the "common cold"is in the list of airborne diseases, some of the colds come from (some sort) of coronavirusses (but also rhino, adeno etc) can Covid19 become airborne ? Could there be a "twilight zone" -some variants are airborne, others not ?  How dangerous is "airborne Covid19" (in this form) ? Would it help explain the much big increase of cases ? 

Just trying to make some sense...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 5:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 5:48am

it took the cdc months but published this in october...

https://www.msn.com/en-us/health/medical/cdc-finally-acknowledges-that-covid-spreads-through-the-air/ar-BB19JcJtCDC Finally Acknowledges That COVID Spreads Through the Air






CDC Finally Acknowledges That COVID Spreads Through the Air





The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has once again updated its guidance surrounding the transmission of COVID and after months of back and forth, the agency has finally acknowledged that "COVID-19 can sometimes be spread by airborne transmission." The CDC's guidelines now confirm that "some infections can be spread by exposure to the virus in small droplets and particles that can linger in the air for minutes to hours." The CDC also acknowledges that airborne transmission can affect people who are beyond six feet from the infected individual and that the virus could linger in an area even after the infected person vacates.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 5:55am

DJ-I did not see other-new-discussions on Covid19 gone airborne in Australia-however, the question has been raised before [url]https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02058-1[/url] or https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02058-1

NEWS FEATURE 
 

 


Mounting evidence suggests coronavirus is airborne — but health advice has not caught up

Governments are starting to change policies amid concerns that tiny droplets can carry SARS-CoV-2. And after months of denying the importance of this, the World Health Organization is reconsidering its stance.

-

The agency (WHO) maintains that the virus is spread mainly by contaminated surfaces and by droplets bigger than aerosols that are generated by coughing, sneezing and talking. These are thought to travel relatively short distances and drop quickly from the air.

-

But other researchers say that case studies of large-scale clusters have shown the importance of airborne transmission. 

So this discussion is "not new" (in fact the discussion on when a disease is considered airborne may be almost 100 year old..) 

I personally believe Covid19 does spread via aerosols-my conclussion however that is why you need masks...I leave it open if you should call spread by small particles that can be in the air for over half an hour "airborne"...The fact that new variants spread much faster makes urgent steps to get the spread under some control very clear...



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (4) Thanks(4)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 6:11am

For goodness sake!!!!  It always was airborne.  This is not news, but it is a subject for debate.......

The line between "droplet infection" and "airborne infection" is not a hard and fast one.  It is a bit fuzzy.  


The classification of airborne is generally applied to bugs which can survive outside the body long enough to travel in wafted air.  Enveloped viruses like coronavirus fit this bill perfectly.  Air conditioning will do that very well indeed for all of them.  That is probably what is happening here.

A more rigid classification of airborne is sometimes applied to those bugs, and only those bugs, which come from the upper respiratory tract, and therefore travel further in human breath.  This does not apply to covid19 which is a lower respiratory tract infection.  It is not possible for it to become airborne by this classification without changing from the pneumonia-causing bug it currently is.  Pneumonia is a lower respiratory tract infection by definition.    If it evolved to become an upper respiratory tract infection, it could no longer cause pneumonia.*




Better quality masks DO provide better protection for the wearer.  That does not mean that even a cheap bit of scarf does not make a big difference, nor that ANY mask provides complete protection.  However it is bad practice generally to let 'the quest for the perfect' get in the way of 'the use of the good'.

Finally, mask wearing is a public health measure.  If everyone wore masks religiously, the spread would be limited.  Each person would get a small amount of protection from their own mask and a great deal from their neighbours'.  There would still be spread, but it would be limited quite effectively.  Isolation, lockdowns, border closures, hygene measures and lockdowns are all needed ALONGSIDE MASK WEARING to be really effective.  That is why New Zealand is now virus free and open all over once again.



Mask effectiveness is a separate issue, unaffected by wether or not it is defined as airborne.

Mask effectiveness is not going to change without a change of the bug's shape and size.  That cannot happen.  If sarsII lost its lipid envelope, it would become inactive.

Horses could evolve to become falabella, ponies, cobs, racehorses and percheron - all horses.  They can't evolve to be lizards.

Coronaviruses could evolve to be more contagious  coronaviruses  -  but still all corovaviruses.  They can't evolve to be filoviruses.





*It could weaken you enough that a bacterial infection could follow and cause pneumonia.  That however would be treatable with antibiotics, which viral pneumonia is not.

Believers don't need proof and sceptics won't accept proof.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 10:01am

Bless your calm and common sense, Techno!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabitha111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 11:07am

Hear an unmasked singer performing in our atrium- I am in my apartment behind closed doors- every weekend someone comes to entertain and sing unmasked for the residents here- and I know a great percentage of  the residents are sitting down there unmasked themselves- SHUDDER!!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 2:03pm

Originally posted by Kilt5 Kilt5 wrote:

this virus has just gone airborne and can infect others through air conditioning - therefore surgical masks on people not infected will not work - non infected people need duckbill virus masks

All this has just happened in Australia - in the last 2 days

That's interesting because I read a news article in the last two days that said authorities were asking people to wear a mask at home, in their homes. Unfortunately I can't remember where it was but it would make sense if it is passing through aircon systems. I thought when I read this that this advice would be ridiculous for us as we live in a house on a farm, but I guess it's good advice for people in apartment blocks.

You can't fix stupid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 16 2021 at 2:15pm

Australia, like Singapore and Hong Kong, is very dependent on airconditioning for life to function as normal, and if this bug is spreading through the aircon then in places that rely heavily on it, the risk is going to be much higher. Every man's home is his castle and it does seem unfair that despite all the precautions a person might be taking, they are still at risk of their castle being invaded by this virus. Our homes should be a safe space, and for some people that's just not the case.


As for masks, I personally think they are a good thing because they say to people looking at you that you are taking this seriously and that you are trying to be socially responsible. I also think logic would suggest that they will reduce the viral load you'll receive if someone sneezes directly in your face. If I'm ill and I wear a mask, that mask would help limit the viral load I'm sending out. I watched a lady at the cinema last week sneeze into her hand and then immediately use that hand to open the door to the bathroom. Ironically, she sneezed just after she'd washed her hands but then didn't wash them again but instead touched the door handle.

You can't fix stupid.
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On the "airborne" discussion; [url]https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(21)00007-4/fulltext[/url] or https://www.journalofhospitalinfection.com/article/S0195-6701(21)00007-4/fulltext ;

The Covid-19 pandemic has caused untold disruption and enhanced mortality rates around the world. Understanding the mechanisms for transmission of SARS-CoV-2 is key to preventing further spread but there is confusion over the meaning of “airborne” whenever transmission is discussed. Scientific ambivalence originates from evidence published many years ago, which has generated mythological beliefs that obscure current thinking. This article gathers together and explores some of the most commonly held dogmas on airborne transmission in order to stimulate revision of the science in the light of current evidence. Six ‘myths’ are presented, explained, and ultimately refuted on the basis of recently published papers and expert opinion from previous work related to similar viruses. There is little doubt that SARS-CoV-2 is transmitted via a range of airborne particle sizes subject to all the usual ventilation parameters and human behaviour. Experts from specialties encompassing aerosol studies, ventilation, engineering, physics, virology and clinical medicine have joined together to present this review, in order to consolidate the evidence for airborne transmission mechanisms and offer justification for modern strategies for prevention and control of Covid-19 in healthcare and community.

DJ-Most of us on this forum do have limited scientific background-but great interest-on pandemics. So this article may provide good info...

[Technophobe:  this url may work better:  Article ]

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabitha111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 9:02am
'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 1:00pm

I got these https://smile.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B08FJCYW3P/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=A3JZHOICSHZ25W&psc=1 with the idea of wearing them in combination with a cloth mask when I go out.  This was a suggestion I saw from the CDC (?) to combat the variants making their way around.  I saw in our county cases were up again after being down, and our local officials are attributing that to the possibility that the variants have made their way here.



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Tabitha111 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tabitha111 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 24 2021 at 1:39pm

I also ordered 40 masks from this company. US Made N95s...not that cheap but not that expensive either. I hope this company survives.
website link: United States Mask
Two guys start a D-FW mask factory but can’t catch a break. Forget made in Texas China always wins – United States Mask

'A man who does not think and plan long ahead will find trouble right at his door.'
--Confucius

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