Pfizer less effective against Delta variant ?

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Dutch Josh View Drop Down

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Topic: Pfizer less effective against Delta variant ?
Posted: July 05 2021 at 8:37pm

[url]https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/[/url] or https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/ ;

The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID vaccine appears to largely prevent hospitalization and serious cases, but is significantly less effective against preventing the spread of the Delta variant of the coronavirus.

New Health Ministry figures reported by the Ynet news site indicated that over the past month, the vaccine, which has been the one used for almost all vaccinated Israelis, has been just 64 percent effective in preventing coronavirus infection. The data reportedly shows that during May, when the strain was less prevalent, the vaccine was 94.3% effective.

According to Ynet, the figures were presented Sunday evening at a meeting of a team of experts advising the government on its handling of the pandemic.

Meanwhile, a study from researchers at the Hebrew University and Hadassah University Medical Center indicated that the Pfizer vaccine is 60-80% effective against infection from the Delta strain.

The Delta variant, which is believed to be twice as contagious as the original strain of COVID-19, is thought to be responsible for 90% of new cases in Israel over the past two weeks.

DJ-What should be basic is to look for trends...vaccines may be "outgroing" evading vaccine immunity high speed...[url]https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-vaccine-less-effective-against-delta-variant-eyes-third-dose/[/url] or https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-vaccine-less-effective-against-delta-variant-eyes-third-dose/ DJ-A booster dose may be short term gain...long term problem because it would speed up vaccine escape...

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein

Dutch Josh View Drop Down

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Posted: July 05 2021 at 8:54pm

[url]https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html[/url] or https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html ;

Unvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say.

That's because the only source of new coronavirus variants is the body of an infected person.

"Unvaccinated people are potential variant factories," Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, told CNN Friday.

"The more unvaccinated people there are, the more opportunities for the virus to multiply," Schaffner said.

"When it does, it mutates, and it could throw off a variant mutation that is even more serious down the road."

All viruses mutate, and while the coronavirus is not particularly mutation-prone, it does change and evolve.

Most of the changes mean nothing to the virus, and some can weaken it. But sometimes, a virus develops a random mutation that gives it an advantage -- better transmissibility, for instance, or more efficient replication, or an ability to infect a great diversity of hosts.

Viruses with an advantage will outcompete other viruses, and will eventually make up the majority of virus particles infecting someone. If that infected person passes the virus to someone else, they'll be passing along the mutant version.

If a mutant version is successful enough, it becomes a variant.

But it has to replicate to do that. An unvaccinated person provides that opportunity.

"As mutations come up in viruses, the ones that persist are the ones that make it easier for the virus to spread in the population," Andrew Pekosz, a microbiologist and immunologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, told CNN.

"Every time the viruses changes, that gives the virus a different platform to add more mutations. Now we have viruses that spread more efficiently."

Viruses that don't spread cannot mutate.

The current vaccines protect well against all the variants so far, but that could change at any moment. That's why doctors and public health officials want more people to get vaccinated.

If a virus tries to infect someone with immunity, it may fail, or it may succeed and cause a mild or asymptomatic infection. In that case, it will replicate in response to the pressure from a primed immune system.

Like a bank robber whose picture is on wanted posters everywhere, the virus that succeeds will be the virus that makes a random change that makes it look less visible to the immune system.

Those populations of unvaccinated people give the virus the change not only to spread, but to change.

"All it takes is one mutation in one person," said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician and immunologist at Boston College.

DJ-Basic biology presented as "news"...Since Pfizer may be the most used vaccine vaccine escape may be linked to Pfizer...but the basic problem (CNN NOT mentioning...of course...) is "leaky vaccines".

Leaky vaccines offer protection (dropped to 64% in Israel-going down fast) against symptoms (in Israel Pfizer I believe was almost the only vaccine used...still offers 90%+ protection against severe disease-but that % will go down as well...). But do NOT stop infections enough..

So virus/variants mutates towards escape from vaccine immunity...Several experts were warning for that...it is "basic biology"...shows up in animal corona outbreaks...not "new" at all...simply ignored...

The CNN "story" proberbly was meant to push vaccines...while one could also read limits of what vaccines can offer in it...Vaccine strategy may work-I think-if you could vaccinate ALL people in just a few months...Worldwide vaccinations are that slow mutations/variants will undo any benefit...proberbly even in a matter of months since we are not "stop the spread"...Delta+ variant may be even worse...(or Kappa/India..also increasing.? [url]https://www.gisaid.org/hcov19-variants/[/url] or https://www.gisaid.org/hcov19-variants/ a bit unclear...).

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
~Albert Einstein

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Posted: July 06 2021 at 8:10am

Basic biology is being presented as "news" because there are so many people falling for conspiracy theories, lies and junk science because they have forgotten, or were never taught basic science, biology and critical thinking. In the US, we have 70% of one of the two major political parties who can't understand/choose not to believe the simple mathematical concept of majorities, so this should not surprise anyone.

I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.

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Posted: July 06 2021 at 4:53pm

and the Lambda variant even more resistant to vaccines

World health experts are concerned a new variant of the coronavirus could be resistant to vaccines.

The Lambda variant, formally known as C.37, was first reported in Peru, and accounts for more than 80 per cent of the nation's cases.

https://www.9news.com.au/world/lambda-covid19-variant-what-is-it-how-contagious-everything-to-know-explainer/55109718-0d84-42f1-8a6c-864959cec69d

cn65

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Posted: July 07 2021 at 1:13am

I would fundamentally disagree with Dr Schnaffer in his comment to CNN in his attempt to blame the unvaxed for the variants and the possibility that some become more dangerous.

The driving evolutionary force for the virus to become more dangerous by being vax -evading comes not from the un-vaxed but from the partially vaxed and in those for whom the vax is not so effective. When these people encounter the virus and catch it (and vaxed people quite clearly ARE getting it) then THIS is where the evolutionary pressure is on the virus to mutate into a vax evading variant.

It's all much like the bacteria/antibiotic tank experiment. Set up a tank with ever increasing levels of antiboitics across the tank. As the bacteria grows across at each barrier it stops...until a variant can escape and then it grows and multiplies again from that spot across to the next barrier, there the same happens and you end up with the bacteria filling across the tank and you have created an ever more resistant bacteria strain at the far end. Compare that to the tank with no restrictions and the bacteria gets to the other side of the tank quicker - but is not nearly so antibiotic resistant.

The only way to stop the tank experiment is to have a barrier of ultra strong antibiotic level which stops the bacteria 100% with no leaks guaranteed. Likewise the only way to stop the mutations is to have the vax 100% - which ain't going to happen. It is the leaky restrictions vax's, barriers etc which force-drive the evolution.

Perhaps even one might suggest that given you need two shots for the vax to become the most effective, the most dangerous person walking round for vax-evading variants to mutate in and multiply in is in first-shot only vax'd person. Maybe these people should be fully quarantined for the 12 weeks between the vax shots!

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Posted: July 07 2021 at 5:34am

Biologically 100% accurate, cn65. It is up there with not taking the whole course of antibiotics.

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.

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Posted: July 07 2021 at 9:02am

What goes on with the virus in the bodies of fully-vaxxed people cannot be helped. The virus will try valiantly to breach the vaccination. In some cases it will succeed. This cannot be helped or controlled.

However, having unvaxxed and half-vaxxed people is an invitation to disaster and spread/mutation/recombination of this virus no matter which way you slice it. But that is the cost of a free society, is it not?

I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.

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Posted: July 07 2021 at 9:25am

Anyone who has the virus can gestate a new version of it. But there are more sources in some places than others.

So, the unvaccinated are the primary source of new variants. This is the main group of "new-variant producers".

Fully vaccinated people can occasionally produce a new variant, as some become carriers, but this is generally quite rare.

Semi-vaccinated people are a viable source of a few viral mutations; not as many as the unvaccinated by a long chalk, but a significant few. Generally, because they are partially immune, it is fairly unusual for them to produce any new variants. Some semi-vaccinated people are even fully immune already and so produce no virus to mutate. But the few mutations the partially covered do gestate, may have biological "guidance" from being unable to use the route-to-infection that the vaccine half covered and so are potentially inclined to mutate in vaccine-avoiding directions.

Test, trace, isolate and fully ring-vaccinate until the virus is gone, is the only way to stop the cycle of mutations. Sadly, misinformation, money and politics prevent the full application of these methods.

How do you tell if a politician is lying?
His lips or pen are moving.

Author	Message Topic Search Topic Options Post Reply Create New Topic Printable Version Translate Topic
Dutch Josh Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95387	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dutch Josh Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Topic: Pfizer less effective against Delta variant ? Posted: July 05 2021 at 8:37pm
	[url]https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/[/url] or https://www.timesofisrael.com/ministry-data-said-to-show-pfizer-shot-blocks-majority-of-serious-delta-cases/ ; The Pfizer-BioNTech COVID vaccine appears to largely prevent hospitalization and serious cases, but is significantly less effective against preventing the spread of the Delta variant of the coronavirus. New Health Ministry figures reported by the Ynet news site indicated that over the past month, the vaccine, which has been the one used for almost all vaccinated Israelis, has been just 64 percent effective in preventing coronavirus infection. The data reportedly shows that during May, when the strain was less prevalent, the vaccine was 94.3% effective. According to Ynet, the figures were presented Sunday evening at a meeting of a team of experts advising the government on its handling of the pandemic. Meanwhile, a study from researchers at the Hebrew University and Hadassah University Medical Center indicated that the Pfizer vaccine is 60-80% effective against infection from the Delta strain. The Delta variant, which is believed to be twice as contagious as the original strain of COVID-19, is thought to be responsible for 90% of new cases in Israel over the past two weeks. DJ-What should be basic is to look for trends...vaccines may be "outgroing" evading vaccine immunity high speed...[url]https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-vaccine-less-effective-against-delta-variant-eyes-third-dose/[/url] or https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-confirms-vaccine-less-effective-against-delta-variant-eyes-third-dose/ DJ-A booster dose may be short term gain...long term problem because it would speed up vaccine escape...
	We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. ~Albert Einstein

Dutch Josh Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Adviser Group Joined: May 01 2013 Location: Arnhem-Netherla Status: Offline Points: 95387	Post Options Post Reply Quote Dutch Josh Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 05 2021 at 8:54pm
	[url]https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html[/url] or https://edition.cnn.com/2021/07/03/health/unvaccinated-variant-factories/index.html ; Unvaccinated people do more than merely risk their own health. They're also a risk to everyone if they become infected with coronavirus, infectious disease specialists say. That's because the only source of new coronavirus variants is the body of an infected person. "Unvaccinated people are potential variant factories," Dr. William Schaffner, a professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center, told CNN Friday. "The more unvaccinated people there are, the more opportunities for the virus to multiply," Schaffner said. "When it does, it mutates, and it could throw off a variant mutation that is even more serious down the road." All viruses mutate, and while the coronavirus is not particularly mutation-prone, it does change and evolve. Most of the changes mean nothing to the virus, and some can weaken it. But sometimes, a virus develops a random mutation that gives it an advantage -- better transmissibility, for instance, or more efficient replication, or an ability to infect a great diversity of hosts. Viruses with an advantage will outcompete other viruses, and will eventually make up the majority of virus particles infecting someone. If that infected person passes the virus to someone else, they'll be passing along the mutant version. If a mutant version is successful enough, it becomes a variant. But it has to replicate to do that. An unvaccinated person provides that opportunity. "As mutations come up in viruses, the ones that persist are the ones that make it easier for the virus to spread in the population," Andrew Pekosz, a microbiologist and immunologist at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, told CNN. "Every time the viruses changes, that gives the virus a different platform to add more mutations. Now we have viruses that spread more efficiently." Viruses that don't spread cannot mutate. - The current vaccines protect well against all the variants so far, but that could change at any moment. That's why doctors and public health officials want more people to get vaccinated. - If a virus tries to infect someone with immunity, it may fail, or it may succeed and cause a mild or asymptomatic infection. In that case, it will replicate in response to the pressure from a primed immune system. Like a bank robber whose picture is on wanted posters everywhere, the virus that succeeds will be the virus that makes a random change that makes it look less visible to the immune system. Those populations of unvaccinated people give the virus the change not only to spread, but to change. "All it takes is one mutation in one person," said Dr. Philip Landrigan, a pediatrician and immunologist at Boston College. DJ-Basic biology presented as "news"...Since Pfizer may be the most used vaccine vaccine escape may be linked to Pfizer...but the basic problem (CNN NOT mentioning...of course...) is "leaky vaccines". Leaky vaccines offer protection (dropped to 64% in Israel-going down fast) against symptoms (in Israel Pfizer I believe was almost the only vaccine used...still offers 90%+ protection against severe disease-but that % will go down as well...). But do NOT stop infections enough.. So virus/variants mutates towards escape from vaccine immunity...Several experts were warning for that...it is "basic biology"...shows up in animal corona outbreaks...not "new" at all...simply ignored... The CNN "story" proberbly was meant to push vaccines...while one could also read limits of what vaccines can offer in it...Vaccine strategy may work-I think-if you could vaccinate ALL people in just a few months...Worldwide vaccinations are that slow mutations/variants will undo any benefit...proberbly even in a matter of months since we are not "stop the spread"...Delta+ variant may be even worse...(or Kappa/India..also increasing.? [url]https://www.gisaid.org/hcov19-variants/[/url] or https://www.gisaid.org/hcov19-variants/ a bit unclear...).
	We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them. ~Albert Einstein

ViQueen24 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Adviser Group Joined: May 14 2013 Location: Verona, PA Status: Offline Points: 12270	Post Options Post Reply Quote ViQueen24 Report Post Thanks(1) Quote Reply Posted: July 06 2021 at 8:10am
	Basic biology is being presented as "news" because there are so many people falling for conspiracy theories, lies and junk science because they have forgotten, or were never taught basic science, biology and critical thinking. In the US, we have 70% of one of the two major political parties who can't understand/choose not to believe the simple mathematical concept of majorities, so this should not surprise anyone.
	I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.

Kilt5 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List V.I.P. Member Joined: March 29 2017 Status: Offline Points: 5740	Post Options Post Reply Quote Kilt5 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 06 2021 at 4:53pm
	and the Lambda variant even more resistant to vaccines World health experts are concerned a new variant of the coronavirus could be resistant to vaccines. The Lambda variant, formally known as C.37, was first reported in Peru, and accounts for more than 80 per cent of the nation's cases. https://www.9news.com.au/world/lambda-covid19-variant-what-is-it-how-contagious-everything-to-know-explainer/55109718-0d84-42f1-8a6c-864959cec69d

cn65 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List V.I.P. Member Joined: May 09 2020 Status: Offline Points: 275	Post Options Post Reply Quote cn65 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 07 2021 at 1:13am
	I would fundamentally disagree with Dr Schnaffer in his comment to CNN in his attempt to blame the unvaxed for the variants and the possibility that some become more dangerous. The driving evolutionary force for the virus to become more dangerous by being vax -evading comes not from the un-vaxed but from the partially vaxed and in those for whom the vax is not so effective. When these people encounter the virus and catch it (and vaxed people quite clearly ARE getting it) then THIS is where the evolutionary pressure is on the virus to mutate into a vax evading variant. It's all much like the bacteria/antibiotic tank experiment. Set up a tank with ever increasing levels of antiboitics across the tank. As the bacteria grows across at each barrier it stops...until a variant can escape and then it grows and multiplies again from that spot across to the next barrier, there the same happens and you end up with the bacteria filling across the tank and you have created an ever more resistant bacteria strain at the far end. Compare that to the tank with no restrictions and the bacteria gets to the other side of the tank quicker - but is not nearly so antibiotic resistant. The only way to stop the tank experiment is to have a barrier of ultra strong antibiotic level which stops the bacteria 100% with no leaks guaranteed. Likewise the only way to stop the mutations is to have the vax 100% - which ain't going to happen. It is the leaky restrictions vax's, barriers etc which force-drive the evolution. Perhaps even one might suggest that given you need two shots for the vax to become the most effective, the most dangerous person walking round for vax-evading variants to mutate in and multiply in is in first-shot only vax'd person. Maybe these people should be fully quarantined for the 12 weeks between the vax shots!

Technophobe Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450	Post Options Post Reply Quote Technophobe Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 07 2021 at 5:34am
	Biologically 100% accurate, cn65. It is up there with not taking the whole course of antibiotics.
	How do you tell if a politician is lying? His lips or pen are moving.

ViQueen24 Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Adviser Group Joined: May 14 2013 Location: Verona, PA Status: Offline Points: 12270	Post Options Post Reply Quote ViQueen24 Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 07 2021 at 9:02am
	What goes on with the virus in the bodies of fully-vaxxed people cannot be helped. The virus will try valiantly to breach the vaccination. In some cases it will succeed. This cannot be helped or controlled. However, having unvaxxed and half-vaxxed people is an invitation to disaster and spread/mutation/recombination of this virus no matter which way you slice it. But that is the cost of a free society, is it not?
	I am the DZ Queen, and I approve this message.

Technophobe Members Profile Send Private Message Find Members Posts Add to Buddy List Assistant Admin Joined: January 16 2014 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 88450	Post Options Post Reply Quote Technophobe Report Post Thanks(0) Quote Reply Posted: July 07 2021 at 9:25am
	Anyone who has the virus can gestate a new version of it. But there are more sources in some places than others. So, the unvaccinated are the primary source of new variants. This is the main group of "new-variant producers". Fully vaccinated people can occasionally produce a new variant, as some become carriers, but this is generally quite rare. Semi-vaccinated people are a viable source of a few viral mutations; not as many as the unvaccinated by a long chalk, but a significant few. Generally, because they are partially immune, it is fairly unusual for them to produce any new variants. Some semi-vaccinated people are even fully immune already and so produce no virus to mutate. But the few mutations the partially covered do gestate, may have biological "guidance" from being unable to use the route-to-infection that the vaccine half covered and so are potentially inclined to mutate in vaccine-avoiding directions. Test, trace, isolate and fully ring-vaccinate until the virus is gone, is the only way to stop the cycle of mutations. Sadly, misinformation, money and politics prevent the full application of these methods.
	How do you tell if a politician is lying? His lips or pen are moving.