First of all, thanks to all my fellow AFT/PT members for being on the early side of this pandemic, starting with the earliest reports of an outbreak of pneumonia in Wuhan, China!    On Jan 8, 2020, I posted onto AFT: 

Starting to look like a corona-virus, just like SARS and MERS. I thought that was the most likely candidate.

I then took pen to paper and calculated US casualties of 2 million as follows:

US population is presently about 331 million souls. if about 1/3 of us are at highest risk

for serious illness, the denominator is 100 million. CFR may be 2%, so 2 million might

die from this one in the US.

This number was since confirmed by the Brits, almost to the decimal point.  Of course, this assumed no herd immunity, no isolation etc. 

.....Now, the US Government is vacillating in their numbers, which have ranged from very low (20,000) to up to 100,000.  Early on AFT, I said that total casualties would be 250,000. 

Today, I am writing to announce that, upon analysis, we are more likely to see casualties in the range of 1 million or more.  Our self-quarantine and social distancing bought us some time to prevent drastic overload of hospital ICU beds, but now that the doors are being flung wide open in states such as Wisconsin, Georgia and others, I predict a massive wave of infections that will dwarf the first one.  We basically just kicked the can down the road a bit. 

Thoughts?  Be safe, Chuck

I sure hope you are wrong.    But looking at the maths of this, it does seem possible.  

1 million deaths at an Infection Fatality Rate of 0.67% would mean about 150 million cases in the USA.  That would be slightly less than 50% of the population being infected.  [This seems low by some of the initial estimates of 60-80% being infected.]

Does your model use a higher infection rate and a lower IFR?   And what adjustments do you make for IFR in various age bands?

To get to the figures you suggest, it basically means social distancing etc goes out the window and you let this burn through the community.

What time frame are you suggesting?  My guess is that you are using a longer time frame and that the numbers will not be that high by the November election.

Here at ATF, the mantra has been to watch what they do, not what they say.  Here in Ohio, our state government is still buying ventilators, PPE, and other necessary supplies.  Everyone here, except the government is acting like this is almost over.  My thoughts are that they bought enough time to get the hospitals ready and now they are going to let it burn.  Hopefully it will be a well contained burn, but I doubt it.

When facilities are overloaded the CFR for this virus rises to 10%.  It is way, way lower with enough top notch hospital care, but overloaded hospitals can't give that and America has a reputation for being truly crap at it.  (Your medical care for the population in general is a national shame and makes you a laughing-stock for the rest of the world.  Sorry folks!  That is the truth!  Your friend is the one that tells you you need the shower.)

So Chuck's figures sound about right.  

I don't expect the government to admit to that though.  The truth would kill the vote count.......   'And that is the real prize.   

^ delusional....

Yes you quite correct ksc

Your government is delusional......

Get your body bags ready.....

Buy shares in funeral homes.....

EdwinSm, wrote: I sure hope you are wrong.    But looking at the maths of this, it does seem possible.   1 million deaths at an Infection Fatality Rate of 0.67% would mean about 150 million cases in the USA.  That would be slightly less than 50% of the population being infected.  [This seems low by some of the initial estimates of 60-80% being infected.] Does your model use a higher infection rate and a lower IFR?   And what adjustments do you make for IFR in various age bands? To get to the figures you suggest, it basically means social distancing etc goes out the window and you let this burn through the community. What time frame are you suggesting?  My guess is that you are using a longer time frame and that the numbers will not be that high by the November election.

Thanks for the feedback, all!  

My original thinking is that 100% of 300 M US citizens are vulnerable to this virus, as it is an emerging, novel virus recently spilled over from some animal host.   We are all at biological risk of infection. 

Second, most recent data shows that transmission is most pronounced when cases are pre-symptomatic, NOT when they are symptomatic.  Checking for fever temperatures etc. doesn't help when seemingly healthy people are circulating in society, spewing virus far and wide. 

Third, the actual death count to date is most likely far too low, according to experts.   US deaths right now are 85,269 but I think that is an underestimate by at least half, so the actual death total could be about 175,000.  In the early stages of this pandemic, many died at home or in nursing homes and were quickly disposed of without testing or autopsy.  Review of death records for "pneumonia" will show a drastic rise in cases.  This is how we discovered the cause of Legionnaire's Disease, which turns out to have been a rather common cause of human pneumonia....it took one major outbreak to spark the investigation into the cause.  

Fourth, we are still critically low on PPE.  Dr. Bright just testified to Congress that much of the imported N-95 masks are substandard, putting healthcare workers at unnecessary risk.   This will lead to more healthcare-related infections and thus more community spread . 

Fifth, we are going right back to the beginning of community spread, with the opening of restaurants, bars etc.  Evidence from South Korea and other locations is that these events are directly related to explosive spread of the virus throughout the population. 

Finally, this mess is so politicized in the US that, by the time the majority of voters of both parties realize we have a fulminant infectious disease problem in the US, it will be far too late to put the "genie" back into the bottle.  Many of us are likely to become infected, and a few of us may die from this.  I'm putting my own affairs into order just in case (my wife doesn't like to think like this).  

To summarize - we only bought some time with our shutdown, which was NOT national in scope.  Some states such as South Dakota did not institute shutdowns, and they are now experiencing surge outbreaks.  Many infectious patients are wandering around on crowded beaches, restaurants etc. in total disregard to the infectious disease implications.  

1 million deaths in the USA seems quite possible to me, I hope it isn't even more....there are always ancillary mortalities from suicide, untreated heart conditions etc. since COVID-19 competes for medical capacity.  In terms of time frame, I would predict 1 M deaths in no more than one year, and probably (as I previously posted to AFT) about 250,000 deaths by the fall election in November 2020.   A functional vaccine may or may not be found, and so we are all at the mercy of the natural history aspects of this virus.   No matter how many restaurants are opening, we are staying home.  

Be safe.  

I hope you're wrong, Chuck. But in my heart of hearts I know you're close to the mark.  As I watch the actions of other states and the need for people to get back to work to pay bills, I fail to see how it won't be really ugly later this year.   Particularly with our own experts saying we're in for a very dark winter if we don't proceed carefully.  But, I know we won't proceed carefully.  Thankfully my brother in RI and his family and my sister and her family in SC are on board with staying home even as States lift restrictions.  I don't expect restrictions to be lifted in NYC until late July/August, if we're lucky.  And I'm okay with that.  I know if (when) new infections start rising again with a second wave, we'll shut down again.  I'm okay with that too.   I thank my lucky stars every day I live in a state and region that is on board with Fauci's recommendations and enacted them instead of just talking about it.

Like you, I'm staying home.  Even though NYC's infection rate is now what it was last March, I'm still staying home.  Even if this administration starts playing the numbers game, I'm staying home.  By the way, I'm getting really good at cooking my own Chinese food!  

WitchMisspelled wrote: I hope you're wrong, Chuck. But in my heart of hearts I know you're close to the mark.  As I watch the actions of other states and the need for people to get back to work to pay bills, I fail to see how it won't be really ugly later this year.   Particularly with our own experts saying we're in for a very dark winter if we don't proceed carefully.  But, I know we won't proceed carefully.  Thankfully my brother in RI and his family and my sister and her family in SC are on board with staying home even as States lift restrictions.  I don't expect restrictions to be lifted in NYC until late July/August, if we're lucky.  And I'm okay with that.  I know if (when) new infections start rising again with a second wave, we'll shut down again.  I'm okay with that too.   I thank my lucky stars every day I live in a state and region that is on board with Fauci's recommendations and enacted them instead of just talking about it. Like you, I'm staying home.  Even though NYC's infection rate is now what it was last March, I'm still staying home.  Even if this administration starts playing the numbers game, I'm staying home.  By the way, I'm getting really good at cooking my own Chinese food!

Bless your heart, WM!  I just made Mongolian beef fo the first time, it was really good!  

Here, this guy says quite a bit that backs up my supposition:

https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html

Thanks for the link, Chuck.  My eyes are tired, but I'll read that more fully in the morning.  I did skim over it and my first reaction is what nitwit told him the economy would recover in six months??

Lets throw something else in the loop please.....I am quite certain that my family of 4 has had it.  I worked at in January with a lot of chinese folks coming back from celebrations and/or holidays. I got really sick.  The cough was the worst cough I have ever had.  Went and got tested for flu but negative.  This was before they were COVID testing.  I got cough medicine with codeine.  Then a week later, my youngest son complained of a headache everyday and as soon as he got home from school he fell asleep for awhile before dinner.  Never had a headache before that week and never since.  My older son got really sick with URI and missed a week of school. Also got a negative flu test.  Then finally my husband. 

So why am I telling you all of this?  we were all sick with one or two of the major symptoms but never got tested.  I think there is a large majority of the population like this and I would like to assume we are immune for the second wave at least. So how can you calculate the number of people that likely have had this into the equation?

Don't count on immunity, Roni.  Even assuming it was covid19 (and there is no proof of that) there is evidence to suggest the immunity is very temporary.  The immunity to the common cold coronavirus only lasts about a year.

Even a really good vaccine would need regular boosters, probably annualy.

I am staying home from now until I feel it is safe...it is not safe.  However that being said people need to go back to work that need to pay bills.  Sorry but not everyone can work from home.  Yes people will get sick and some will die but 80 % again 80% of people will get over this virus.  We can't stop the world for people who should be home during this pandemic.  

Doc,  given the  confusion and incompetence of the federal government, I think you may be right. 

It is not just the federal government it is also the states that decide what they are goin to open.  Again 80% of people get this and are FINE...the other 20% if they can need to stay home.  Some HAVE to work to feed kids and keep a roof over their heads...what you all think this life is free because some of us do not need to work or can work from home.  

Does it make a difference to open now or a month from now or   3 months from now or 6 months from now.  When ever we open this virus is going to get going again and kill some of us.  Do we want to kill our economy so we do another 1920s depression.  NOT me let people make their own decisions unless you want the U.S. To become a communist country where the powers that Be  run YOUR life.

roni3470 wrote: Lets throw something else in the loop please.....I am quite certain that my family of 4 has had it.  I worked at in January with a lot of chinese folks coming back from celebrations and/or holidays. I got really sick.  The cough was the worst cough I have ever had.  Went and got tested for flu but negative.  This was before they were COVID testing.  I got cough medicine with codeine.  Then a week later, my youngest son complained of a headache everyday and as soon as he got home from school he fell asleep for awhile before dinner.  Never had a headache before that week and never since.  My older son got really sick with URI and missed a week of school. Also got a negative flu test.  Then finally my husband.  So why am I telling you all of this?  we were all sick with one or two of the major symptoms but never got tested.  I think there is a large majority of the population like this and I would like to assume we are immune for the second wave at least. So how can you calculate the number of people that likely have had this into the equation?

I'm sure there are many cases like yours (you do sound as if you had exposure and infection), and you should go have a test for circulating antibodies. 

However, the great majority of US citizens have likely not had any exposure to SARS-CoV2 yet.  The reason I say this is because it is so damn transmissible, and we have had large sections of the US lulled into a false sense of security because it has taken a while for the virus to penetrate beyond urban strongholds. 

However, as we see in meat processing plants in South Dakota, Minnesota and other states, this thing spreads like wildfire amongst vulnerable populations, and I think that the reprieve we earned with scattershot isolation (we should have had a national policy, but Trump didn't like that) is over now. 

Incubation period is about 14 days, so in a few weeks, we'll know one way or the other.  I do hope you have immunity to this thing. 

FluMom wrote: It is not just the federal government it is also the states that decide what they are goin to open.  Again 80% of people get this and are FINE...the other 20% if they can need to stay home.  Some HAVE to work to feed kids and keep a roof over their heads...what you all think this life is free because some of us do not need to work or can work from home.   Does it make a difference to open now or a month from now or   3 months from now or 6 months from now.  When ever we open this virus is going to get going again and kill some of us.  Do we want to kill our economy so we do another 1920s depression.  NOT me let people make their own decisions unless you want the U.S. To become a communist country where the powers that Be  run YOUR life.

Economies recover much more quickly than dead bodies, FM.  

I don't care how many tattoo parlors, saloons and casinos open, I don't plan on spending money in any of them.   

The economy won't recover without consumer confidence, and the only way to provide this is with concrete medical progress.  Pres. Trump keeps saying a vaccine will be ready by the end of the year or whatever, but this is a scientific impossibility.  His wild guess about hydroxychloroquine turned out to be a hollow promise.  

Let states like Wisconsin, Georgia and Iowa throw open their doors, I think that we'll see very poor business results and rising infection rates and mortalities.  We do have more ventilators now, but getting deathly ill and being on a ventilator for several weeks doesn't sound like fun.  1 M fatalities.  

ECRD! Economies recover, corpses don't.

There is much talk of recession. Optimistic Rubbish!  We are on course for a global depression.  It is unavoidable.  Re-opening before the virus is controlled will make things harder and more drawn-out in the long run.

Whatever the course of action things are going to get tight very soon.  How bad and how long for depends on whether the virus is still rampaging or not.

Dying for a haircut?  Not me either.

CRS, DrPH wrote: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html

I still want to know what nitwit told Trump that the economy would recover in six months...   .  I "

WitchMisspelled wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html - https://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2020/04/itll-all-be-over-by-christmas.html Yes, I think I gave similar sentiment in another thread when I said that the Fed loans Trillions per day to banks and the banks don't reinvest (instead give their big guns multi-million dollar bonuses and lay off 40,000 workers. A few of that Trillion needs to be tossed to citizens in order for this to work. I'm not a big adherent to extreme progressive economic values but these are extreme times. Time to give trickle-up a try in this relatively brief period and see what happens before any further commitment is legislated in "New Deal" type measures. "If the howls of rage at the first lockdown are deafening, the second lockdown will be worse: think of toddlers being sent back to bed with no supper. And that's the lucky work-from-home class: the working poor—with no savings and jobs they need to be physically present for—are going to be increasingly angry and fractious at their exposure. Expect civil disobedience and possibly summer riots unless central banks throw money at the grassroots -- and not $1200 for 10 weeks: more like $1200 per week.    Good read, Chuck.  Thanks.  We're not seeing riots yet, but it is a matter of time.   I also believe we'll be extremely lucky if we can eke out six or eight weeks of relative summer quiet to collect ourselves and hike up our big girl tights and big boy pants, respectively.  I still want to know what nitwit told Trump that the economy would recover in six months...   .  I "

As far as "not seeing riots," the situation in Lansing, MI (the state capital) is bad enough.  Gov. Detmer is enduring constant death-threats, and I hope she calls out the Michigan National Guard, tanks and all, and surrounds these mopes.  They would drop their assault rifles and run for the lives (or waddle, after looking at some of them). 

This is pretty sick (hanging a nude Barbie doll in effigy??) 

https://wsbt.com/news/local/fight-breaks-out-during-capitol-protest-over-man-carrying-barbie-doll-hanging-from-a-noose - https://wsbt.com/news/local/fight-breaks-out-during-capitol-protest-over-man-carrying-barbie-doll-hanging-from-a-noose

I saw that photo of the man with a barbie noosed and hanging from his semi.  Disgusting.  Beyond the denial and refusal to look at facts (i.e. rinse, swallow and regurgitate), this violent mentality is worrisome.  It will boil over.  

WitchMisspelled wrote: I saw that photo of the man with a barbie noosed and hanging from his semi.  Disgusting.  Beyond the denial and refusal to look at facts (i.e. rinse, swallow and regurgitate), this violent mentality is worrisome.  It will boil over.

I agree, WM!  Read up on the term "bugaloo," a Far Right buzz word for a violent uprising against authority:

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/10/795366630/boogaloo-is-the-new-far-right-slang-for-civil-war

I do work with the FBI and local law enforcement, and we are all very worried about this.  The OK City bombing was the result of nut-cases like these.  Be safe, okay?

When looking at closed systems (such as the various ships with oubreaks) it seems the strike rate is in the 20-30% range.   Is there any hard evidence of the 60-80% rates suggested in this thread?

Yes I know being that it is a novel virus would suggest that everybody might be vulnerable.  However we all know that a percentage of the population is not vulnerable to just about any particular type of virus.    Even illnesses such as smallpox and ebola won't strike everybody, some people just happen to win the genetic lottery, or they are doing something with diet/lifestyle that makes the difference.

Human immunology is a very complex subject, that we are just beginning to understand.

Also, if you believe serological studies, they suggest that the IFR is somewhere between .1-.5%.    Probably closer to .1%.    Also 30-50%+ of the deaths are in nursing homes.   So that significantly drops the IFR for the general public.   Then you have to consider even of the deaths outside of the nursing homes 90% to possibly 99% are people with significant commodities   So if you are not diabetic, obese or have heart disease, or live/work in a nursing home, your odds of dying are probably way way less than even that .1%.

We are, without a doubt, going to see some degree of societal collapse in the next year or two. It won't matter what CAR and CFR  we eventually agree on if we go through enough lockdown-reopening-lockdown cycles to severely compromise supply chains. And the mass exodus of refugees fleeing starvation in countries like Bangladesh will only serve to further stress the economy (or what's left of it) and healthcare systems around the world. I've said it before, but it's not the virus - it's us, and how well we react to it that will determine the outcome, and we're not in a good place to do a good job right now.

Prep on, guys. This is going to be a long, bumpy ride.

I was just reading an article about Asian flu/Hong Kong flu pandemics.   When adjusted for population growth, both probably where just about as deadly as Covd19.   For the most part life went along as normal.   In fact flu received very little press coverage, when it did it would be buried on the 20 page of the newspaper.    Amazing how things have changed.

CRS, DrPH wrote: I agree, WM!  Read up on the term "bugaloo," a Far Right buzz word for a violent uprising against authority: https://www.npr.org/2020/01/10/795366630/boogaloo-is-the-new-far-right-slang-for-civil-war I do work with the FBI and local law enforcement, and we are all very worried about this.  The OK City bombing was the result of nut-cases like these.  Be safe, okay?

I will never say never here.  That being said I live in a tri-state area that has among the strictest gun control legislation in the nation.   All open carry is illegal here in New York State as it is in New Jersey.  Something our law enforcement takes very seriously.   There will not be any scenes at our State capitol like there are in Michigan.  If they are not arrested on the spot, they'd be fools to pull out even a handgun.  The coroner may be hard pressed to get an accurate count of bullet holes.

Yet, I don't believe that this area is immune from some domestic terrorist with extreme ideas pulling out a semi from his coat and shooting a bunch of innocents to make a point.  Then there's the ones making bombs in their basement...  So yes, I am mindful we're not immune.  I will be particularly mindful after November 3rd.  That is if luck with this virus holds out and I can still feel safe going to the grocery store once a week to 10 days.  But, I'm reviewing problem spots in my preps and I'm gearing up to completely lock down meaning no going out/no deliveries.  This semi-lock down has been a very enlightening experience for me.

I fear for the rest of the country, though.  I really do.  I remain safe and mindful of my safety as always.   I wish you luck and hope.  Stay safe and healthy (and preferably without any bullet holes).  

Why go to a civil war over a virus...the government would be stupid to do that.  Lots of people dead and I don't agree that people will run...they will become snipers, hit and run like the Viet Kong, or look at Red Dawn (movie).   What you think Americans in uniform are going to kill other Americans over a virus...I think not . It is just better to let people live their lives go back to work and take the consequences of illness.  If you want to stay home and don't have to worry about bills stay home.  

Other wise live and let live...quit trying to control people who do not want to be controlled.  It is very simple!

You may not like idea of a Civil War, 

But if the anti China Rhetoric,

gets any worse ,

you may have a much bigger War ,

to contend with.

Going sideways:

Wonders if any of the Islamic State players, could be spreading this,

After all America, is at open war with them....

They Hate America.....and the West in general.....

Last i heard ,China wasn't at War with anyone.

Oh they have put over a million Muslims in camps!!!!!!!!!

FluMom wrote: Other wise live and let live...quit trying to control people who do not want to be controlled.  It is very simple!

Because that's not freedom.  It's anarchy.  Can't call yourself a patriot with this kind of anarchistic rhetoric.

There's a big difference ,of having a "Right"

And chosing  when to exercise that "Right"

It takes a certain about of intelligence,

To make that decision,

Which is Somewhat lacking in 

Certain Quarters.....

Carbon - what were you thinking? Don't you know that you have to think of yourself at times like this? Get with the program and stop looking out for everyone else. Jeez....

I don't understand why it's "1984"

I have the Right to go outside whenever I want, 

But is that really a good idea when there's a raging pandemic? 

Err not a Great idea,and not when you do are you putting others at risk?

I'm walking down the street letting loose with an ak47 

So you have the Right to stop me? 

The virus is no different than an armed assailant,

Not as far as I can see, 

We all have to abide by certain rules,other wise 

It's the rule of the gun not the rule of law....

You obviously live by a different moral code than me..... 

That's why I live here and would never dream of visiting the USA

Bunch of raving gun-toting lunatics......

What do you expect froa country that can't own look after it's own sick.....

carbon20 wrote: I don't understand why it's "1984" I have the Right to go outside whenever I want,  But is that really a good idea when there's a raging pandemic?  Err not a Great idea,and not when you do are you putting others at risk? I'm walking down the street letting loose with an ak47  So you have the Right to stop me?  The virus is no different than an armed assailant, Not as far as I can see,  We all have to abide by certain rules,other wise  It's the rule of the gun not the rule of law.... You obviously live by a different moral code than me.....  That's why I live here and would never dream of visiting the USA Bunch of raving gun-toting lunatics...... What do you expect froa country that can't own look after it's own sick.....

 Yeah it's the wild west here every day all day 24/7, better for you to stay home, cause as you said we all are just a bunch of lunatics here in the US. Amazing that the US leads the world in so many different areas (besides COVID19) and so many want to immigrate here with all our wild west lunatic American ways. But hey not that Australia doesn't lead the world too, you guys have more kangaroos and koala bears than anyone!! And nobody throws a shrimp on the barbie like an Aussie.   

Leads the World !!!!!!

REALLY IN WHAT 

BULLS..T

Vietnam is doing far far better than the USA......

MIND THATS NO SUPPRISE......

Space exploration, aerospace and aviation. Medical research, science and technology, the top 3 colleges in the world are in the US, Olympic medals, oh yeah and we are the leading and only world military super power. And we lead the world in carbon emission reductions. LOL

All that and you still can't provide universal Health care for your citizens....

And your great country has just been bought to it's knees by a virus,

that your Idiot of a leader call FAKE NEWS.....Sad very Sad,

Just keep telling yourselfs how great you are, we not listening.....dumb and dumber......

 Natural selection in action.....

Despite his unnecessarily rude expression, Carbon is right.  

I too would never visit the violent, money grabbing USA.  I will never get as many chances to get rich over here, we have fewer opportunities and higher taxes.  But prefer it more than I could express in words.  Just reading the posts here horrifies me.  Open carry - because you only feel safe if you do?  Muggings for food? Americans over here begging good samaritans not to call an ambulance - because they can't believe there is no charge for saving their lives? AND THIS IS NORMAL???  My daughter came in crying a couple of months ago, because an American friend could not get surgery for a brain tumour which would eventually kill her.    

If forced to move I would chose Cuba before the US

Yes you are the greatest military superpower!  Military is not everything - North Korea believes that - not I.

You have the most sophisticated intelligence (misnomer)in the World,

But your administration could not, would not believe that a pandemic was a coming....

Nothing to crow about here, 

Lions led by a HEEL SPUR.....totting idiot.....

carbon20 wrote: All that and you still can't provide universal Health care for your citizens.... And your great country has just been bought to it's knees by a virus, that your Idiot of a leader call FAKE NEWS.....Sad very Sad, Just keep telling yourselfs how great you are, we not listening.....dumb and dumber......  Natural selection in action.....

 Curious how you always gravitate to US politics, despite the fact I never mention politics once in this thread or rarely ever for that matter. It's like your go to thing, of course you don't have much to go to anyway in any regard, you have to work within your limitations.  And I understand that. 

And by WE you mean you and the groupthink of course. LOL  Stay safe, wash your hands and drink some water.

I am neither American, nor Australian, but Australia does not seem to have bigger economic problems than America*, neither is it heavily socialist.   You make it sound like North Korea, yet the USA is more like them than Australia - their leaders are "great pals" too.

New Zealand has a socialist government at the moment.  It is doing better than either.  The UK has a right-wing covernment and one of the worst covid19 problems in the world.

Frankly, being left or right is immaterial to a non political virus.  We are doing worse, because the government made mistakes at the beginning.  Being right-wing was not what made us worse.

Having a system that cares for the people, the truth and the science makes all the difference.

Again, Carbon could have put things a bit more politely.

*Under current problems, which are wrecking economies across the globe, it seems to be doing rather better.

Technophobe wrote: Despite his unnecessarily rude expression, Carbon is right.   I too would never visit the violent, money grabbing USA.  I will never get as many chances to get rich over here, we have fewer opportunities and higher taxes.  But prefer it more than I could express in words.  Just reading the posts here horrifies me.  Open carry - because you only feel safe if you do?  Muggings for food? Americans over here begging good samaritans not to call an ambulance - because they can't believe there is no charge for saving their lives? AND THIS IS NORMAL???  My daughter came in crying a couple of months ago, because an American friend could not get surgery for a brain tumour which would eventually kill her.     If forced to move I would chose Cuba before the US

Oh and by the way another area the wicked old wild west full of lunatics US of A leads the world is in humanitarian assistance.

Not all necessary treatment counts as emergency.

My daughter's friend's tale is far from unique.

Technophobe wrote: I am neither American, nor Australian, but Australia does not seem to have bigger economic problems than America*, neither is it heavily socialist.   You make it sound like North Korea, yet the USA is more like them than Australia - their leaders are "great pals" too. New Zealand has a socialist government at the moment.  It is doing better than either.  The UK has a right-wing covernment and one of the worst covid19 problems in the world. Frankly, being left or right is immaterial to a non political virus.  We are doing worse, because the government made mistakes at the beginning.  Being right-wing was not what made us worse. Having a system that cares for the people, the truth and the science makes all the difference. Again, Carbon could have put things a bit more politely. *Under current problems, which are wrecking economies across the globe, it seems to be doing rather better.

https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/-global-recovery-skips-australia-as-economy-suffers-coalitions-incompetence-,13531 - https://independentaustralia.net/politics/politics-display/-global-recovery-skips-australia-as-economy-suffers-coalitions-incompetence-,13531

AU after COVID19

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/worst-since-1932-two-million-aussies-face-unemployment-queue-20200323-p54d14.html - https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/worst-since-1932-two-million-aussies-face-unemployment-queue-20200323-p54d14.html

SEEMS being the operative world there, but then it's relative to how it was doing before COVID19, which didn't look very hot at all. 

That depends on your viewpoint:

Overall the US gives just under 32 billion in foreign aid and the UK just under 19 billion.  But before you slap yourself on the back for that.  The us gives $95.5 per capita and the UK $284.8.  Considering we are a poorer country, you have nothing to boast of there.  Sweden manages a staggering $700 per capita and Australia beats the USA at $129.9 per head- considerably more than the American average.

You, yourself once pointed out to me that the USA was a collection of countries.  They only look so good because of weight of numbers, AI

Oh!  'And charity begins at home.

Unemployment queues are nasty, but those on them are housed, fed, clothed and given medical aid - not just for emergencies either.

😆

90000 Americans dead...... 

That could have been avoided,

That's a fact....

Thing is,I have a very busy life,

I pop on here ,wind you up, 

I have no beef whatsoever with the American people,

Not long ago during our Bush fires a firefighter told our PM to F...k off,that being a true Aussie

Just because chump is your leader dosnt mean he or anyone else is above critiqued

You may not like that, but he and your administration have handled this Pandemic very badley.

Have a really nice day, I'm off to work now.....😁

carbon20 wrote: Have a really nice day, I'm off to work now.....😁

Your trolling efforts could use some help, minimal effectiveness. But it's funny Trump lives in your head LOL. You have a excellent day at work, mine is just rapping up. Be safe, wash your hands and drink some water.

I don't care much for Trump, but I'm going to stop short of blaming him for 90,000 deaths.  Initially closing the borders was a great move.  His failure to follow that with real preparation over the next month or so did cost lives, but it is hard to say how many.  People also made stupid decisions independent of Trump from their own motivations.  We disregard science at our own peril, no matter what our leaders say.  

We were shaking our heads at the CDC, WHO, Trump, and many other leaders in this very forum during that time, and making our own moves to protect our families.  We informed ourselves as best we could and didn't take their word for it.  

 When he brought home our citizens from the Diamond Princess, I was cheering him on, hoping I had been mistaken in my dislike of his leadership.  He lead the way on that, and other countries began repatriating their own.  

 People were always going to die.  Some of those deaths are likely down to his administration, but not all.    From spring breakers convinced of their immortality to pastors who lacked the sense to seek God's wisdom and pridefully jeopardized their congregations, to dishwasher manufacturers who declared themselves essential and compelled their workers to keep building things nobody is buying right now, a lot of deaths happened that cannot be laid at Trump's feet.

I live in the US and work in healthcare. Stabilizing someone at an ER and then sending them on their way is a far cry from universal healthcare. It’s not even close.

So why mention it?

Rather than just focusing on the total number in each country, to give better comparisons it is best to use deaths per population (either million or 100.000 - the latter seems to be more used with medical sites, but I have got into the habit of using deaths per million).

By this metric, USA is no where near being the world leader   - A spot held by Belgium (probably because Belgium includes "suspected" cases whereas other countries do not).

In a table of larger countries (I have excluded small island nations etc because their small populations can throw a natural variation into showing some high figures) USA comes 9th after Belgium (787), Spain (587), Italy (529), UK (521), France (433), Sweden (357), the Netherlands (328), and Ireland (314).    USA (269) has a way to go before they over take Ireland, but I think the UK will soon overtake Italy to be in Bronze position.

Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does.

With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.  

If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more.

In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths.

AI wrote: [QUOTE=Technophobe] Oh and by the way another area the wicked old wild west full of lunatics US of A leads the world is in humanitarian assistance.

Only because our GNP is higher.  There are countries (actually most countries) that devote much higher percentages of their GNP to humanitarian efforts.  The UK, Germany, Japan and Sweden all devote a higher percentage of their GNP to humanitarian relief.  So the US may devote more dollars, but far less of our GNP compared to other first world countries so the per capita outlay is far lower.   But instead, trillions are handed out as Corporate Welfare every day.  Every damn day. The U.S. provides corporations with those nifty P&Ls that bolster the lagging indicator of DJIA or NASDAQ while the vast majority of Americans worry about how to pay the bills.

It's all on how to cook the books to make the numbers say what you want them to say.  Sort of like reclassifying Covid deaths and Covid related deaths to push the numbers down.  Swallow, rinse and regurgitate.

Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths.

I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.  

I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded. 

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response

We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.  

I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.  

There are still a few who would have caught it and died even without a lack of leadership.  Even New Zealand had a death. 

I confess, the toll is MASSIVELY higher than it could have been and the current policies and (I don't know what to call it; it's not leadership) caused that.  I still can't put a precise figure on it - perhaps 'orders of magnitude' rather than 'percentage increase', but still nothing precise.  AND I LIKE PRECISE!

But how high would New Zealand's numbers have been if their government had done little to nothing as the U.S. government?

I'm afraid you're not going to get precise here.  Not for years yet.  

Unfortunately I do believe the Chump administration is responsible,

When you look at

My Son in Laws country,

Sri Lanka,a non allied ,not part of the 5 eyes intelligence organisation,

Who closed down, and have kept their numbers way down, 

What does that say about a county with the Most sophisticated intelligence ,in the World,

It Says to me that country,

Is not at Smart or sophisticated as they think, 

or their leadership Didn't Listen........

Then again 

Sri Lanka has a literacy rate of 97%

Very clever people,

very poor but very Smart.....

Technophobe wrote: There are still a few who would have caught it and died even without a lack of leadership.  Even New Zealand had a death.  I confess, the toll is MASSIVELY higher than it could have been and the current policies and (I don't know what to call it; it's not leadership) caused that.  I still can't put a precise figure on it - perhaps 'orders of magnitude' rather than 'percentage increase', but still nothing precise.  AND I LIKE PRECISE!

You are getting precise information, Techno.  My original calculation of 2 M US deaths was based upon what we knew at the time (January 2020) of case fatality rate as reported from China, along with rough estimates of transmission rates in the general population.  I came up with 2.0 M and the Brits came up with 2.2 M.  

https://www.hpnonline.com/infection-prevention/screening-surveillance/article/21130206/covid19-predicted-to-infect-81-of-us-population-cause-22-million-deaths-in-us

I now say "1 M" because little is being done to prevent further cases.  We have more people immune from either surviving hospitalization or enduring infection without serious consequences (Prince Charles), so that reduces the pool of vulnerable patients.  Also, once you die, you are not part of the equation anymore.  

I don't know about the UK, where I once lived and have many friends, but it doesn't sound like you guys are doing all that well.  In the USA, all the damn rednecks want their saloons and hair salons open again, so we will have a nice surge of cases.  This is already happening in good old Texas, and states like Wisconsin, Iowa and others shall follow. 

https://www.houstonchronicle.com/news/houston-texas/texas/article/Massive-jump-in-Texas-COVID-19-cases-15275484.php

Texas reported 1,801 new COVID-19 cases on Saturday — the biggest single-day jump in cases since the pandemic began.

A growing outbreak in the Texas Panhandle is a big reason for the surge in cases. More than 700 new cases were reported out of Amarillo on Saturday with Texas Gov. Greg Abbott warning those numbers will continue to climb as the state increases testing in that hot spot.  

(This is the new Republican lie - that cases are going up because we are testing more.  The increases in mortality blow a HUGE hole in that lie.  I'm just sitting back and watching, continuing to isolate at home and monitoring the Internet chatter.  Be safe and well, Charles)

CRS, DrPH wrote: Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths. I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.   I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.   I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.

 Well this guy was the senior director of that aspect of the NSC and he directly refutes what you claim in regard to the NSC. His credentials are far better than yours and I believe him over you and Vanityfair.

And he's smart enough to know and state the following.

AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths. I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.   I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.   I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.    Well this guy was the senior director of that aspect of the NSC and he directly refutes what you claim in regard to the NSC. His credentials are far better than yours and I believe him over you and Vanityfair. And he's smart enough to know and state the following. It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe. We are less safe because public servants are distracted when they are dragged into politics. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/

Bah.  The article you cite says this: 

It is true that the Trump administration has seen fit to shrink the NSC staff. 

But the bloat that occurred under the previous administration clearly needed a correction. (I think we are seeing the price we are now paying for clearing out this "bloat" of career scientists and intelligence specialists = nearly 100,000 dead in the US and counting.  CRS, DrPH)

https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/465320-reducing-nsc-staff-places-trump-on-right-side-of" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Defense Secretary Robert Gates ,  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/republicans-try-to-shrink-the-national-security-council/483596/" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>congressional oversight committees  and members of the  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Obama administration  itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). (FYI, I am personal friends with the Axelrods, they don't agree with this statement.  "Too large" is subjective, Trump didn't see the value of having preparedness people on staff.  Now, maybe, he knows.)

As The Post  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>reported  in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.(The NSC staff had grown because of the global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009; massive Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014; and various threats of bioterrorism from the Islamic State and other actors.  I was working on all of these with the FBI and DHS.  Trump didn't show any interest in the briefings given by the Obama administration).  

You are incorrect.  CRS, DrPH

AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths. I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.   I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.   I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.    Well this guy was the senior director of that aspect of the NSC and he directly refutes what you claim in regard to the NSC. His credentials are far better than yours and I believe him over you and Vanityfair. And he's smart enough to know and state the following. It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe. We are less safe because public servants are distracted when they are dragged into politics. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ Bah.  The article you cite says this:  It is true that the Trump administration has seen fit to shrink the NSC staff.  But the bloat that occurred under the previous administration clearly needed a correction. (I think we are seeing the price we are now paying for clearing out this "bloat" of career scientists and intelligence specialists = nearly 100,000 dead in the US and counting.  CRS, DrPH) https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/465320-reducing-nsc-staff-places-trump-on-right-side-of" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Defense Secretary Robert Gates ,  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/republicans-try-to-shrink-the-national-security-council/483596/" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>congressional oversight committees  and members of the  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Obama administration  itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). (FYI, I am personal friends with David and Susan Axelrod, they don't agree with this statement.  "Too large" is subjective, Trump didn't see the value of having preparedness people on staff.) As The Post  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>reported  in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.(The NSC staff had grown because of the global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009; massive Ebola outbreak in West Africa, 2014; and various threats of bioterrorism from the Islamic State and other actors.  Trump didn't show any interest in the briefings given by the Obama administration).  You are incorrect.  CRS, DrPH No you'r saying someone who actually held the position on the NSC is wrong and who would be more in the know than you and who's credentials eclipse your's by a far ways. That's who you are saying is wrong the author of that article, not me.

I don't know who that jerk is, and everyone in DC has their own agenda.  I do work with the FBI Weapons of Mass Destruction Directorate and know more than you do.  Just judge the results - Trump Administration downplayed the Obama Administration's warnings for pandemics and did typical corporate downsizing stuff.  "We don't know what these people do, so get rid of them."  Result?  Approaching 100,000 preventable casualties.  

I'm not impressed, Trump should be impeached for negligent manslaughter.  

This is my friend Dave:   https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795 - https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795

CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths. I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.   I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.   I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.    Well this guy was the senior director of that aspect of the NSC and he directly refutes what you claim in regard to the NSC. His credentials are far better than yours and I believe him over you and Vanityfair. And he's smart enough to know and state the following. It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe. We are less safe because public servants are distracted when they are dragged into politics. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ Bah.  The article you cite says this:  It is true that the Trump administration has seen fit to shrink the NSC staff.  But the bloat that occurred under the previous administration clearly needed a correction. (I think we are seeing the price we are now paying for clearing out this "bloat" of career scientists and intelligence specialists = nearly 100,000 dead in the US and counting.  CRS, DrPH) https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/465320-reducing-nsc-staff-places-trump-on-right-side-of" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Defense Secretary Robert Gates ,  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/republicans-try-to-shrink-the-national-security-council/483596/" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>congressional oversight committees  and members of the  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Obama administration  itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). (FYI, I am personal friends with David and Susan Axelrod, they don't agree with this statement.  "Too large" is subjective, Trump didn't see the value of having preparedness people on staff.) As The Post  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>reported  in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.(The NSC staff had grown because of the global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009; massive Ebola outbreak in West Africa, 2014; and various threats of bioterrorism from the Islamic State and other actors.  Trump didn't show any interest in the briefings given by the Obama administration).  You are incorrect.  CRS, DrPH No you'r saying someone who actually held the position on the NSC is wrong and who would be more in the know than you and who's credentials eclipse your's by a far ways. That's who you are saying is wrong the author of that article, not me.  I don't know who that jerk is, and everyone in DC has their own agenda.  I do work with the FBI Weapons of Mass Destruction Directorate and know more than you do.  Just judge the results - Trump Administration downplayed the Obama Administration's warnings for pandemics and did typical corporate downsizing stuff.  "We don't know what these people do, so get rid of them."  Result?  Approaching 100,000 preventable casualties.   I'm not impressed, Trump should be impeached for negligent manslaughter.   This is my friend Dave:   https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795 - https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795

This is my friend Bob  https://twitter.com/SpongeBob - https://twitter.com/SpongeBob

AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: Technophobe wrote: Carbon is exaggerating to make a point (I believe).  Trump is in no way responsible for all those deaths, past or future.  But the policies of his administration ARE responsible for some increase.  I don't know exactly how many - no one does. With the exception of Joscinda Ardern, I don't think there is a political leader without responsibility for some.  This was never going to have been an easy bug to battle.  But most politicians listen to their critics, it helps them learn.  For instance, our Prime Minister, Boris, started out on a DISASTEROUS course.  He changed tack (rather too late) when a group of scientists lobbied him.   If Trump hears a critic, he goes ballistic!  He fires them, walks out, refuses to talk, cuts funds and even threatens war - whatever option he has for each one.  When covid 19 first appeared, no one knew anything about it.  Trump is learning slower than most, (because his ego is so fragile - I presume) and that is costing extra lives.  It will cost more. In his defence, America is an unusual case.  The monetarist, law-of-the-jungle system and lack of healthcare, coupled with the national obsession with imagined freedoms, don't make this case an easy one to treat.  But he does bear a proportion of the blame for a proportion of the cases and therefore a proportion of the deaths. I would argue that Pres. Trump DOES bear direct responsibility for these deaths, in the US and globally.   I work in professional public health, and have extensive training in pandemic science (in PH, we have largely been focused on H5N1 bird flu, which is not the priority I was advocating).  Under Pres. Obama, we had two "pandemic" situations - H1N1 swine flu in 2009, which was a true pandemic, and a large-scale Ebola outbreak in West Africa in 2014, which threatened to become a pandemic.  The US had a robust pandemic response team in the National Security Council and throughout government, but Pres. Trump though it was all a waste of money and dismantled much of it just before COVID-19 exploded.  https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05/trump-obama-coronavirus-pandemic-response We should have kept our pandemic epidemiologist boots on the ground in China, but Trump brought nearly all of them home.  AFT members were discussing the Wuhan outbreak before many in government addressed it, and this is criminal.   I would like to see Trump impeached and tried for negligent homicide.    Well this guy was the senior director of that aspect of the NSC and he directly refutes what you claim in regard to the NSC. His credentials are far better than yours and I believe him over you and Vanityfair. And he's smart enough to know and state the following. It matters because when people play politics in the middle of a crisis, we are all less safe. We are less safe because public servants are distracted when they are dragged into politics. https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/16/no-white-house-didnt-dissolve-its-pandemic-response-office/ Bah.  The article you cite says this:  It is true that the Trump administration has seen fit to shrink the NSC staff.  But the bloat that occurred under the previous administration clearly needed a correction. (I think we are seeing the price we are now paying for clearing out this "bloat" of career scientists and intelligence specialists = nearly 100,000 dead in the US and counting.  CRS, DrPH) https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/465320-reducing-nsc-staff-places-trump-on-right-side-of" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Defense Secretary Robert Gates ,  https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/republicans-try-to-shrink-the-national-security-council/483596/" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>congressional oversight committees  and members of the  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>Obama administration  itself all agreed the NSC was too large and too operationally focused (a departure from its traditional role coordinating executive branch activity). (FYI, I am personal friends with David and Susan Axelrod, they don't agree with this statement.  "Too large" is subjective, Trump didn't see the value of having preparedness people on staff.) As The Post  https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/how-the-obama-white-house-runs-foreign-policy/2015/08/04/2befb960-2fd7-11e5-8353-1215475949f4_story.html?tid=lk_inline_manual_10&itid=lk_inline_manual_10" style='color: rgb(25, 85, 165); border-bottom-width: 1px; border-bottom-style: solid; border-bottom-color: rgb(213, 213, 213); font-family: georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 20px;'>reported  in 2015, from the Clinton administration to the Obama administration’s second term, the NSC’s staff “had quadrupled in size, to nearly 400 people.” That is why Trump began streamlining the NSC staff in 2017.(The NSC staff had grown because of the global Swine Flu pandemic in 2009; massive Ebola outbreak in West Africa, 2014; and various threats of bioterrorism from the Islamic State and other actors.  Trump didn't show any interest in the briefings given by the Obama administration).  You are incorrect.  CRS, DrPH No you'r saying someone who actually held the position on the NSC is wrong and who would be more in the know than you and who's credentials eclipse your's by a far ways. That's who you are saying is wrong the author of that article, not me.  I don't know who that jerk is, and everyone in DC has their own agenda.  I do work with the FBI Weapons of Mass Destruction Directorate and know more than you do.  Just judge the results - Trump Administration downplayed the Obama Administration's warnings for pandemics and did typical corporate downsizing stuff.  "We don't know what these people do, so get rid of them."  Result?  Approaching 100,000 preventable casualties.   I'm not impressed, Trump should be impeached for negligent manslaughter.   This is my friend Dave:   https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795 - https://twitter.com/davidaxelrod/status/1255985213647265795 LOL again it's not about me, I didn't write the article. But again he was several, well more than several levels above you and actually a senior director on the NSC. So his direct knowledge of what is needed and required would of course be based on actual working experience at that level.  This is my friend Bob  https://twitter.com/SpongeBob - https://twitter.com/SpongeBob

This is one of my credentials, please share yours.  This was managed by the FBI WMD Directorate.  

The NSC guy is in the Trump tank.  Trump is the boss of the NSC and he screwed up remarkably.  What may have looked like a good idea in 2016 is a disaster in 2020.  Everyone in DC has an opinion & is in a position to grab a job/write a book.  I don't know this guy, never heard of him, and Trump owns every death in the USA. 

p.s. say hi to Spongebob for me.

What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level. 

AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.

I am Deputy Sector Chief for Healthcare/Public Health to the FBI through a private industry alliance.  I attend classified briefings and have a security clearance.  

The guy you quoted is a JD politician, no science/medical background.  Typical DC liteweight figure, now working for the Hudson Institute.  *yawn* Very influential indeed.   

Morrison holds a  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="Juris Doctor - Juris Doctor  from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="George Washington University - George Washington University  and a BA in Political Science from the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="University of Minnesota - University of Minnesota . ^{https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Morrison_(presidential_advisor)#cite_note-10" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; - [10]}

Take Trump's word for it also.  He is obviously so competent, unlike Pres. Obama, who successfully fended off two pandemics and multiple terrorist threats. 

Yep Obama gave Billions to Iran...good Job Obama!  IN CASH No Less!

AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.

Dr. Holdren is a colleague of mine.   I was particularly involved in the Deepwater Horizon Oil Disaster, when the soon-to-be-dead Rush Limbaugh said that the US Government were sending "SWAT" teams to the gulf (we were sending SWOT teams, = Strengths/Weaknesses/Opportunities/Threats).

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/05/sabotage-conspiracy-and-other-ways-to-spin-the-oil-spill/56347/ - https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2010/05/sabotage-conspiracy-and-other-ways-to-spin-the-oil-spill/56347/

AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  I am Deputy Sector Chief for Healthcare/Public Health to the FBI through a private industry alliance.  I attend classified briefings and have a security clearance.   The guy you quoted is a JD politician, no science/medical background.  Typical DC liteweight figure, now working for the Hudson Institute.  *yawn* Very influential indeed.    Morrison holds a  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="Juris Doctor - Juris Doctor  from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="George Washington University - George Washington University  and a BA in Political Science from the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="University of Minnesota - University of Minnesota . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Morrison_(presidential_advisor)#cite_note-10" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; - [10] Take Trump's word for it also.  He is obviously so competent, unlike Pres. Obama, who successfully fended off two pandemics and multiple terrorist threats.  Curious how did Obama fend off two pandemics without the NSC pandemic unit? It wasn't formed until the final months of his presidency, 7 years after H1N1 started and 2 years after the Ebola epidemic. And you do remember who was Obama's Ebola czar right? Robert Klain another JD

Not an Obama fan, huh?  

We were extremely busy back then, dealing with ISIL (rookies like you call them ISIS), cyberthreats from Russia (remember them?) and China, restive N. Korea etc.  Syria was using poison gas on its rebels, Obama should have nuked Assad in his palace.  He didn't because of Russian bluster. 

I don't know Klain, but he was very experienced in political realms and seems to have been competent enough, unlike anyone in Trump's sphere (Fauci excluded). 

AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  I am Deputy Sector Chief for Healthcare/Public Health to the FBI through a private industry alliance.  I attend classified briefings and have a security clearance.   The guy you quoted is a JD politician, no science/medical background.  Typical DC liteweight figure, now working for the Hudson Institute.  *yawn* Very influential indeed.    Morrison holds a  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="Juris Doctor - Juris Doctor  from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="George Washington University - George Washington University  and a BA in Political Science from the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="University of Minnesota - University of Minnesota . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Morrison_(presidential_advisor)#cite_note-10" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; - [10] Take Trump's word for it also.  He is obviously so competent, unlike Pres. Obama, who successfully fended off two pandemics and multiple terrorist threats.  Curious how did Obama fend off two pandemics without the NSC pandemic unit? It wasn't formed until the final months of his presidency, 7 years after H1N1 started and 2 years after the Ebola epidemic. And you do remember who was Obama's Ebola czar right? Robert Klain another JD  Not an Obama fan, huh?   We were extremely busy back then, dealing with ISIL (rookies like you call them ISIS), cyberthreats from Russia (remember them?) and China, restive N. Korea etc.  Syria was using poison gas on its rebels, Obama should have nuked Assad in his palace.  He didn't because of Russian bluster.  I don't know Klain, but he was very experienced in political realms and seems to have been competent enough, unlike anyone in Trump's sphere (Fauci excluded).  So one JD appointed to a position by Trump is bad and one JD appointed to a position by Obama is good when the common denominators are both dealt with potential pandemics and both were JD's not MD's. Your political bias is astounding, especially given your previous post about JD politicians without medical/science degrees. And you didn't answer the question you danced and deflected all the way around it with irrelevant information.

Obama's JD, Ron Klain was an accomplished political manager who was Chief of Staff for Vice Presidents Al Gore and Joe Biden.   Your guy Morrison is a political hack who now sucks the teat at the neocon Hudson Institute in DC. 

Obama's response to pandemics was much more effective than Trump's, who has killed more Americans than the Viet Nam war....and counting.  Try again.  Get a new name, AI is only half right.

AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.

AI, I say this with no malice or wish to denigrate your opinion.  However, reading CRS's posts has allowed me to put a few things together.  If CRS's credentials go as "high" as I suspect, he's one of the dudes that helps writes the policy that directors follow.  That's not to say CRS should confirm or deny this.  I'm just sayin'...

CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: CRS, DrPH wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  I am Deputy Sector Chief for Healthcare/Public Health to the FBI through a private industry alliance.  I attend classified briefings and have a security clearance.   The guy you quoted is a JD politician, no science/medical background.  Typical DC liteweight figure, now working for the Hudson Institute.  *yawn* Very influential indeed.    Morrison holds a  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juris_Doctor" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="Juris Doctor - Juris Doctor  from  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Washington_University" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="George Washington University - George Washington University  and a BA in Political Science from the  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Minnesota" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px;" title="University of Minnesota - University of Minnesota . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Morrison_(presidential_advisor)#cite_note-10" style="color: rgb(11, 0, 128); background-image: none; - [10] Take Trump's word for it also.  He is obviously so competent, unlike Pres. Obama, who successfully fended off two pandemics and multiple terrorist threats.  Curious how did Obama fend off two pandemics without the NSC pandemic unit? It wasn't formed until the final months of his presidency, 7 years after H1N1 started and 2 years after the Ebola epidemic. And you do remember who was Obama's Ebola czar right? Robert Klain another JD  Not an Obama fan, huh?   We were extremely busy back then, dealing with ISIL (rookies like you call them ISIS), cyberthreats from Russia (remember them?) and China, restive N. Korea etc.  Syria was using poison gas on its rebels, Obama should have nuked Assad in his palace.  He didn't because of Russian bluster.  I don't know Klain, but he was very experienced in political realms and seems to have been competent enough, unlike anyone in Trump's sphere (Fauci excluded).  So one JD appointed to a position by Trump is bad and one JD appointed to a position by Obama is good when the common denominators are both dealt with potential pandemics and both were JD's not MD's. Your political bias is astounding, especially given your previous post about JD politicians without medical/science degrees. And you didn't answer the question you danced and deflected all the way around it with irrelevant information. Obama's JD, Ron Klain was an accomplished political manager who was Chief of Staff for Vice Presidents Al Gore and Joe Biden.   Your guy Morrison is a political hack who now sucks the teat at the neocon Hudson Institute in DC.  Obama's response to pandemics was much more effective than Trump's, who has killed more Americans than the Viet Nam war....and counting.  Try again.  Get a new name, AI is only half right.

And you know the anti pandemic team in the NSC was merged with 2 other directorates into one and renamed but with the exact same mission. And since you were in government at least to some degree as you claim, you know about government redundancy and you know they were not the only government agency tasked with that mission or at least to have that aspect included in their mission.

Back on topic,

Well.done AI 

Changed the narrative again, 

Aka Chump

But the

 FACT OF THE MATTER IS 

CHUMP IS AN ABJECT FAILURE

HE AND HE ALONE

IS RESPONSIBLE

FOR SO FAR 

91,000 and counting

AMERICAN DEATHS.....

This orange faced clown ,

Will say,blame anyone for his failure....

1. THE BUCK STOPS ON HIS DESK

SACK HIM, SACK HIM 

SACK THE LIAR....

.

So do you agree 

That your Chump administration has Failed? 

Or do you blame everyone else like you leader? 

America is approximately 20x the population of Australia .

We have just had our 100th death

20x 100 =2000

So why if your administration is sooooo great 

Why is your death 91,000 ?and ours 100? 

I would like an explanation thats all,

 I could ask the same question to technophobe about why the UK's is so high, but I know Techno,blames the governments response,why don't you man up and and call a spade a spade.....

Instead of changing the narrative as your best mate chump does and blaming, China,CNN,CDC,FAUCI 

talk about WEAK 

CHUMP IS THE WEAKEST LEADER THE USA HAS EVER HAD....

what a loser....

SACK HIM.....

carbon20 wrote: So do you agree  That your Chump administration has Failed?  Or do you blame everyone else like you leader?  America is approximately 20x the population of Australia . We have just had our 100th death 20x 100 =2000 So why if your administration is sooooo great  Why is your death 91,000 ?and ours 100?  I would like an explanation thats all,  I could ask the same question to technophobe about why the UK's is so high, but I know Techno,blames the governments response,why don't you man up and and call a spade a spade..... Instead of changing the narrative as your best mate chump does and blaming, China,CNN,CDC,FAUCI  talk about WEAK  CHUMP IS THE WEAKEST LEADER THE USA HAS EVER HAD.... what a loser.... SACK HIM.....

You of course know little of US history and the difference between the states rights and the federal government, which is odd given US politics live in your head or is it just Trump that lives in your head, and there is a lot of empty space for him there.

 But then again you'd hardly be the first to spout about something you know virtually nothing about. You merely have your rhetoric, the same tired thing time after time kind of like a pull string puppet with only one or two sayings only with an Aussie accent.

Well actually I'm English....

And speak with a Birmingham accent.... 

Been here 33 years best move we ever made 

And how do you know I don't know anything about American politics,

I just like to wind you rednecks up lol

Because the whole world is laughing at the Orange faced clown.....LMAO

carbon20 wrote: And how do you know I don't know anything about American politics,

Your limitations are rather obvious when it comes to US history and politics. All you have to do is open your mouth and rhetoric falls out and it's not even the smart kind.

Now now, Carbon.  Don't be so trollish!

Yes, the majority of the world thinks the GOO hilarious, but you still have to be polite to the rest of America, especially those smart enough to be here on AFT.

Smack wrist!

AI wrote: WitchMisspelled wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  AI, I say this with no malice or wish to denigrate your opinion.  However, reading CRS's posts has allowed me to put a few things together.  If CRS's credentials go as "high" as I suspect, he's one of the dudes that helps writes the policy that directors follow.  That's not to say CRS should confirm or deny this.  I'm just sayin'... You maybe right WM, however I highly suspect if that was the case he would have let everyone know, as he does shall I say have a certain penchant in that regard.

I could be completely wrong.  But, CRS has made mention of some things that add up to a direction other than just some training manager who teaches policy.   In some cases, connections should be kept quiet.  Not everyone brags about their accomplishments. Bragging reveals things that are just safer hidden under a bushel.  
  

WitchMisspelled wrote: AI wrote: WitchMisspelled wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  AI, I say this with no malice or wish to denigrate your opinion.  However, reading CRS's posts has allowed me to put a few things together.  If CRS's credentials go as "high" as I suspect, he's one of the dudes that helps writes the policy that directors follow.  That's not to say CRS should confirm or deny this.  I'm just sayin'... You maybe right WM, however I highly suspect if that was the case he would have let everyone know, as he does shall I say have a certain penchant in that regard. I could be completely wrong.  But, CRS has made mention of some things that add up to a direction other than just some training manager who teaches policy.   In some cases, connections should be kept quiet.  Not everyone brags about their accomplishments. Bragging reveals things that are just safer hidden under a bushel.

I call bullshit

There seems to be some common sense recommendations for re-opening if people will follow the instructions and not put others at risk just to make a political points. It's nonsense how grow up adults are acting over wearing masks, what a bunch of cry babies.  

We still don't know what the long term problems this illness could cause let along how long the immunity will last.  We have the best universities and smartest people in the world in the US  and we have a political party that goes on gut feel when it comes to science.  

Fauci is right, let the CDC make the recommendations and open when we have the testing and tracing in place. There is no need for 50% oi the population to get this illness just so people can get a hair cut or go to the movies.  Glad I live in a state that has their act together WA.   

Taxman100 wrote: We still don't know what the long term problems this illness could cause let along how long the immunity will last.

You're absolutely right there. There are increasingly frequent reports of people who've only had a mild case of Covid being left with heart damage and lung scarring. It's far too early to write this disease off as a mild inconvenience.

kaye kaye wrote: WitchMisspelled wrote: AI wrote: WitchMisspelled wrote: AI wrote: What can I say, I'd take the word of someone of who has actually done the job as a senior director at that level and who was actually there and has firsthand knowledge, over someone who took a 2 day course offered by the FBI and was never there or at that level.  AI, I say this with no malice or wish to denigrate your opinion.  However, reading CRS's posts has allowed me to put a few things together.  If CRS's credentials go as "high" as I suspect, he's one of the dudes that helps writes the policy that directors follow.  That's not to say CRS should confirm or deny this.  I'm just sayin'... You maybe right WM, however I highly suspect if that was the case he would have let everyone know, as he does shall I say have a certain penchant in that regard. I could be completely wrong.  But, CRS has made mention of some things that add up to a direction other than just some training manager who teaches policy.   In some cases, connections should be kept quiet.  Not everyone brags about their accomplishments. Bragging reveals things that are just safer hidden under a bushel.      I call bullshit

I'll see your bullshit and raise you.   I've been informed about some scary bullshit, pathogens MUCH worse than this 

stupid little corona virus.  You have no idea how soft & vulnerable the West is to our adversaries, and Trump sucks up to all of them.

kaye kaye wrote: I call bullshit

Of course you do because you've never been involved with any of the intelligence agencies.  I have had, to a limited degree, involvement both professionally and socially.  Clearly CRS has ties closer than any of us.  

Apples and oranges.