Hi Folks, it seems that Covid has become the witch hunt of our times. Mass hysteria. A world gone crazy...  Lets discuss  

Facts: 

99.97% survival rate, and getting less deadly. Now not much worse than the flu. For people under 50. Covid is less deadly than a flu.

I called it a powderpuff from the very beginning (March 2020) and stated the IFR to be 0.03%. Seems my numbers were accurate. Believe it or not. Its actually a very easy to calculate.  Virologists one other forums were getting similar results at the time.

HOWEVER... at the same time. Alarmist statistics were being pumped into the media. I think the worst i heard was from Reuters saying Italy at 16% death rate. I cant find the head line now, but i remember it was pushed hard and people lost their minds over it. Here's a quick example from Aljazeera they state 9%.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/3/24/why-is-italys-coronavirus-fatality-rate-so-high

I dont want to push this into debate about numbers and statistics and arguing over CFR vs IFR etc. The main point i make is this:

The powers that be, The WHO and CDC etc were fully aware of IFR at that time and they let the public persist with this crazy narrative. No one person in the media was talking facts. They all ran with the hysterical case numbers. They let the public be alarmed. This alarm has not died down.  If anything it has gotten worse.

I would like you guys to watch a video about mass hysteria and make some comments afterwards...  Note: There's some guff about totalitarianism don't focus on this. More focus on the hysteria and where we are at. Dose anyone see the parallels?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09maaUaRT4M

Cobber I totally agree with you. The whole has gone mad and half of them have been brainwashed. 

I"ll start this off with this that I read today. 

https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/board-certified-occupational-therapist-whistleblower-more-patients-are-dying-from-the-vaccine-than-from-covid/ - https://vaccineimpact.com/2021/board-certified-occupational-therapist-whistleblower-more-patients-are-dying-from-the-vaccine-than-from-covid/

I'll also add that in our national newspaper today, the NZ government has said that they are not worried about children catching Covid, unlike the rest of the world. 

https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126063294/covid19-nz-what-we-know-about-children-and-the-delta-variant - https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/126063294/covid19-nz-what-we-know-about-children-and-the-delta-variant

More people dying from the vaccine.....

What a LOAD OF CRAP....!!!!!

And it's one person say that about kids in NZ not the government....

Health systems collapsing all over the world and you believe in this crap.....

Your right ....

CANT FIX STUPID......

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-08/could-indonesias-outbreak-give-rise-to-a-new-variant-covid19/100343554 - https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-08/could-indonesias-outbreak-give-rise-to-a-new-variant-covid19/100343554

I remember a similar graph from early on in the pandemic designed to down play the seriousness of this pandemic.  It is interesting how many places this outbreak has moved up if one just considers the Official totals.  If one includes estimates for excess deaths then a number of 20 million deaths seems a reasonable estimate for fatalities so far.

In honour of the first poster the graphic designer made everything seem like a colourful powder puff!

NPR: Mississippi's Hospital System Could Collapse Within 10 Days Under COVID's Strain.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027103023/florida-mississippi-arkansas-hospitals-overwhelmed-covid-19-delta?ft=nprml&f=1001 - https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027103023/florida-mississippi-arkansas-hospitals-overwhelmed-covid-19-delta?ft=nprml&f=1001

NPR: 2 Days Into The School Year, A Florida District Asked 440 Students To Quarantine.

https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027222426/palm-beach-florida-school-district-440-students-quarantine-covid?ft=nprml&f=1001 - https://www.npr.org/2021/08/12/1027222426/palm-beach-florida-school-district-440-students-quarantine-covid?ft=nprml&f=1001

NPR: Nearly 300,000 More Federal Health Workers Are Ordered To Be Vaccinated.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/12/1027075086/covid-vaccine-hhs-va-federal-health-workers-vaccination-mandate?ft=nprml&f=1001 - https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/12/1027075086/covid-vaccine-hhs-va-federal-health-workers-vaccination-mandate?ft=nprml&f=1001

The Associated Press: Olympics now ended, Japan races to vaccinate as virus surges.

https://apnews.com/8b48db716e4c0cdd132822a19ef7b112 - https://apnews.com/8b48db716e4c0cdd132822a19ef7b112

https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-iceland-delta-variant-covid19-cases-surge-despite-mass-vaccinations/a8b30e90-2553-419c-88e5-a9a2ce1c3df3 - https://www.9news.com.au/world/coronavirus-iceland-delta-variant-covid19-cases-surge-despite-mass-vaccinations/a8b30e90-2553-419c-88e5-a9a2ce1c3df3

The Age: Jacinda Ardern unveils three-speed plan to reconnect New Zealand with the world.

https://www.theage.com.au/world/oceania/disaster-new-zealand-top-epidemiologist-slams-nsw-response-to-delta-outbreak-20210812-p58i0q.html - https://www.theage.com.au/world/oceania/disaster-new-zealand-top-epidemiologist-slams-nsw-response-to-delta-outbreak-20210812-p58i0q.html

Seems Jacinta wants as many vaccinated as possible......

Best get the shot.....

Lmao

Take care all 😷😉💉

Covid does not kill many of those it infects - true.  But it also maims, can cause months of severe illness and kills horriffically.

Two million are dead from this disease already, and it is becoming endemic.

The only reason the numbers are as low as 2 million, is the herculean efforts undertaken worldwide to control it.

It has wrecked ecomnomies.

It has overloaded ICUs and hospitals and many have died from other things because of it.

Millions suffer as additional medical services are overtaken.

AND IT IS MUTATING EVERY DAY!!!

New deadlier Covid variant could kill one in three people - SAGE warns

A NEW Covid variant caused by a ‘recombination' of the delta and alpha variants is a "realistic possibility" according to a new report by the government's scientific advisers.

 By https://www.express.co.uk/search?s=Lauren%20Russell&b=1 - Lauren Russell

  PUBLISHED:  15:01, Sun, Aug 1, 2021   | UPDATED: 15:01, Sun, Aug 1, 2021

A NEW Covid variant caused by a ‘recombination' of the delta and alpha variants is a "realistic possibility" according to a new report by the government's scientific advisers.

This new Covid variant has a similar death rate to MERS, which kills one in three infected people. Scientists outlined the chances that this new variant will evade current vaccines is ‘almost certain’ in a paper published on Friday. The report then set out measurements that the government should consider to combat these possibilities.

Scientists also stated that the complete eradication of the virus is “unlikely” and they have “high confidence that there will always be variants.”

Whilst unsure of the short-term effects of Covid, there is a “realistic possibility in the long term” that Covid will cause common cold symptoms, affecting predominantly the old or clinically vulnerable.

Clinical epidemiologist Dr Deepti Gurdasani took to Twitter to say that the SAGE paper was a "stark warning".

She continued: “Given the impact Delta has already had, and in light of recent evidence from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, we cannot afford any more new variants emerging, we need to take preventive action now.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

MERS, short for Middle East Respiratory Syndrome, was first reported in Saudi Arabia in 2012.

Those who contracted the virus developed severe respiratory illness with symptoms of fever, shortness of breath and cough.

The largest known outbreak of MERS was in 2015 when a traveler was returning home to the Republic of Korea from the Arabain Peninsula.

According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, about three or four out of every ten patients reported to have had MERS have died.

Source:   https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/health/1470683/new-deadlier-covid-variant-could-kill-one-in-three-sage" rel="noopener noreferrer - Express

Ps.   Incidentally, how many deaths is enough to worry about?

Techno stop and THINK!!  You are keeping the Great Lie going!!!  

It's absurd and inane to suggest that countries would lockdown because its a

"BIG LIE"

what would be the reason ? 

I mean WHAT would be the reason ???

Spending millions in of $$$$in free vaccinations,

Billions in lost exports....

Subjecting millions to lockdowns,

Millions out of work .......

.

I've been on this site for near 20years waiting and expecting a pandemic ,the thing I never ever expected was this nonsense , conspiracy theories ,that have absolutely no basis. 

It's just some cannot grasp what is going on ,there small minds cannot except it ,so they come up with all this stupidity.......

CANT FIX STUPID......

TAKE CARE ALL 😷😉💉

2 million dead!   Many more on the virus' hit list!  The vast majority of scientists and medical people are in agreement on this.

Conspiracy nuts remain in disagreement, as do some politicians - hoping to gain in the strength of their countries' economies by playing this down. (Proven impossible, but still they hope.)

Yes, it is true that the disease is mild for most people, but not all, and not necessarily for long (It's a coronavirus: it mutates often.).

I have thought about this - long and hard.  I have freinds who are at severe risk from COVID. ... I have lost people dear to me and mine too. Stopping thinking about it would be far, far easier.

Have you read ME63's posts about his personal experience?   People don't just die from COVID, they die slowly and horriffically!  

OK, it is unlikely to become a slate wiper.  But, At no point is this OK, unless you think those deaths and all that vast suffering don't matter. Well, do you or not?

People, people.

Edwin, great illustration.  Compared to earlier ones, even adjusted for population, this a pretty significant pandemic by any measure.

Carbon, Techno: Why beat a dead horse?  It tires out your arm and the horse likes it. (A former boyfriend used to say that, maybe why he is former).

THE BIG LIE is the hogwash that the 2020 US election was fixed.  The Great Lie --

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Lie - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Lie

I'm going to pop some popcorn.  See yinz all later!

Edited to add -- Edwin, as of today, 4.34 million people have died of Covid, with 206 million cases so far, so definitely folks looking at that graphic will want to know how much bigger the "powder-puff" has gotten.

Ok, to tell you one more time and if you are too stupid to understand it then i am sorry.   I was in the hospital and nursing home for a combined 8 months.   I saw horrific deaths from COVID.  Out of the 48 people in the ICU, 36 died.  I was and still in a mental fog about some of details of my illness, but  I can tell you that the scenes of dead and dying people was heartbreaking.  I saw a mother say good bye to her 4 kids.  It was a PTSD causing incident.  I was witness to death on a massive scale.  36 people died in that ward.  I was so lucky, my doctors fought hard.  We cried every day when someone was sent to the morgue.  We saw things so horrid that i still can't put them in words.   This is real, it kills and anyone who discounts the illness is plain nuts.  Unless, you have been where I have been, you have no right to deny this illness. 

When I saw that Cobber had posted this thread last night, I was delighted because i thought that it would be a real discussion point, so I commented and then went to bed. Getting up this morning I saw that there were 17 comments, and again, I was delighted because I thought that there would be an interesting discussion in progress. How wrong I was!!

This site used to host some amazing discussions. People were able to express their opinions or debate a theory and no one was attacked or belittled for speaking out. 

I can see that Covid is a very emotive subject. Having read all the posts above I'll say this

ME163, there is no doubt that what you and your family went through with Covid was truly horrific and i'm not surprised to hear that it was a PTSD causing event for you all. It sounds like hell on earth, but you've said that if people deny Covid then they are stupid. But I can't see anyone denying Covid's existence. We all know it's there. 

You had the worst of outcomes from it, short of death, but all I'm saying is that for the majority of people, their experience is not the same. The facts remain that the majority of people are fine. 

Carbon, you are so firmly entrenched in your belief system that the only way forward is total vaccination that you seem unable to comprehend anyone's viewpoint that doesn't fully align with yours. And in the process you are only just stopping short of a personal attack. Throwing facts and figures at us all to illustrate your point is a bit pointless because for every one that you throw, there exists an equal and opposite "fact" from some other government or scientist group to contradict it. 

To give you an example, you have posted above a story about Indonesia and the narrative implies that due to their poor health system and low vaccination levels, that they may prove to be the origin of the variant that kills us all. Now about 5 days ago the UK government, backed by it's scientists, said the opposite. In fact they acknowleged that it would be in the fully vaccinated person that the most dangerous variants develop as the virus strives to become vaccine resistant. 

Your opinion is your own and you have every right to express it, but so do I. There is an increasing trend on this site to make out that anyone who even dares to question the standard narrative that the vaccines are amazing is some kind of Covid denier or anti vaxxer. And in doing so, it's not only insulting the person who made the comment but it's bordering on bullying. 

I question the vaccines because I'm intelligent enough to read both sides of the story. I'm not a bloody sheep just following the herd. I'm not an anti vaxxer. Me and my family are fully vaccinated and happy to be so. I question them because it doesn't matter how many millions of people receive a jab, we still don't know what the long term effects of those vaccinations are. We simply do not know if they are safe long term.

And that's a fact. 

Anyone who says otherwise is talking out of their arse because the plain fact is, no one knows. No one at all. Shout me down as much as you like about that but it's a fact. No one will know what the effects of these vaccinations in the long term until years in the future. This is a fact that can't be denied or manipulated because time is a constant. All sorts of scientists may well have an opinion, and THINK that there'll be no long term risks but they don't know. 

Now, if I were old or frail or immune compromised or obese or diabetic then I'd probably be fighting my way to the front of the queue to get one. Because the risks of catching covid would far outweigh the risks of the long term effects of the jab. My 90 year old father has had his jabs, and I think that was a great call for him. 

But, when someone is young, healthy with no comorbidiites then I think they might be better off not having it. It's been publicly declared by the manufacturers and almost every government now that the jabs do not stop you for catching covid, they do not stop you from transmitting it either, so it can be successfully argued that having the jab is for personal benefit only. 

Please don't bother to post stories in reply to this showing how one young person died from Covid despite being healthy etc, I fully accept that there will be the odd one, and I've seen those stories myself.  But I repeat that the majority get a mild illness. Scare tactics don't really work with me. 

The point I'm trying to make here is that we each view the world from our own perspective, and we get to chose the lens through which we view it. I choose to view it from a questioning standpoint. I live on a farm with a young family and I clock up about 18,000 steps a day just going about my business. I'm fit and healthy and I am well aware that yes, perhaps I will be the unfortunate individual who ends up in ICU but it's unlikely. 

Why can't we accept that we are all different and are entitled to have a different opinion. We need to tone down the name calling and vitriol and maybe the intelligent discussion will return - perhaps along with some of the older members who used to be active on here. 

If this site continues to shout down anyone who dares to question it will just become a mutual appreciation society and will be boring in the extreme. I really hope it doesn't go that way.

And for good measure, I'm going to repeat myself in the vain hope that this gets through to anyone who is currently seeing red.........

Questioning the safety of Covid vaccines and the common narrative does not make someone a conspiracy theorist or an anti vaxxer. It doesn't make them anti Covid or a Covid denier. It just means they are thinking for themselves and are not a sheep.

You tell it like it is sister!!  We all need to take a breath and think about the sources of any news. I am just saying don’t take everything you read or see from the media as truth. Alot is geared to improve ratings to improve the bottom line. I take great objection to any attempt to figure out this virus death rate!! No one HERe or anywhere have the true death tallies especially from countries under communist rule or dictatorshipsEvencountriewithdemocratiruleandbestinterestarenotsureoftheirnumbers
 Some here early on told me the best intell is boots on the ground. There was an interesting PBS special last night thar investigated these tales of woe in the media and quickly found them all to be over exaggerated claims. One was the mis quote of number of hospitizied children in Florida which turned out to be the number since 2020 when it started not just this week!   It is important now more then ever to be hyper vigilant and verify facts before engaging in the hype and rumor mill

Pixie on another post site posted this website tracking hospitals. I can attest to Reston Hospital in Reston Va numbers since I work there https://data.statesmanjournal.com/covid-19-hospital-capacity/facility/reston-hospital-center/490107/ - https://data.statesmanjournal.com/covid-19-hospital-capacity/facility/reston-hospital-center/490107/

They are accurate

Reality is always complex. We may get some realism if we look at things from different corners...there is no absolute reality..

For the news I more and more turn to twitter etc. since main stream media/experts/government all come with a same sort of "unrealism"...vaccine-religion is part of that "unrealism"...

The need to make such a point of vaccines is that then other questions can be stopped. Why is there airtravel even cruises ? "Vaccines will save us"...Why schools reopen ? "Vaccines will save us"...pretty insane !

Most independent scientists by now seem to think Delta needs both vaccines AND NPI...

KiwiMum-I may not agree with you on some points-but the idea of this forum is NOT to agree on some points...!

Non of us are experts ! We all (should) try to "get a realistic picture"...and if that picture is not the same picture that is welcome, interesting, fine !

I live in urban NW Europe, you live on a New Zealand farm...different perspectives, different views !

Respect is the basis of this forum !

Dutch Josh wrote: Respect is the basis of this forum !

You're spot on Josh.

Ever since a dear friend of mine received a message on Facebook spring of 2020 saying contact tracers were taking children from the homes of parents who were both testing Covid positive (they weren't, they don't have that power); and last summer that BLM was demanding people's houses be given to them for reparations and  burning them down if they refused (during last year's Western US fires), I haven't believed a damn thing I see on social media unless I have three other credible sources (AP, Reuters, etc.) backing it up.  (The BLM story was a variation of the "Antifa started the fires" BS that also circulated on social media.  Cuz you know, we don't have fires every year due to drought, record heat, I.e. climate change /s).

Believing that the pandemic is at least as bad as is being reported, that therefore one is better off being cautious, and protecting oneself by every reasonable means necessary; that this vaccine is the result of at least 11 years of technology, and is proven safe so far, and is probably much safer than some of the food, water, air and supplements that many of us take in; and that, while others may not believe in the vaccine, and that is their prerogative, but when they are out amongst the rest of us who have taken these steps, they need to social distance and mask up, or stay the @#$% home, else they are being selfish and irresponsible ≠ being a

It = being socially responsible, a concept seemingly being forgotten by some of the "rights and freedoms" crowd.  I also didn't listen to the CDC when they said that, once fully vaxxed you were safe to hang out maskless with other fully vaxxed people.  Because experience says no vax is 100% effective, and other people will lie and tell you they're vaxxed when they're not.  This is just common sense, also not the hallmark of 

My doctor told me to get ready for another shot. Both of us are on the list for booster shots.  We will be called when they get here.  We will inform you all about the side effects and what kind we are getting.  

JIll, Becky, ME 163 and Vicki .

Respect also means posting true sources of information and not misleading people with fake news and disinformation.   Respect means that people do not try to bully people into following a fake media story.  Respect means that people don't demand respect when they spread fake and deceptive info.   Believe it or not, there are lurkers and others who follow this site and actually follow the advice on this site.  People actually use this site for info.  They can't trust their own health officials or can't afford to go to a hospital or the medication.  We need to have standards.  Right now, there are people who are dying from COVID because they believed the fake news or lies that have been spread around the internet.  I can't in good faith allow myself to be associated with a site that spews fake news and fake, misleading items on a Killer Virus.  I just heard that another classmate of mine died from COVID.  We don't need to be jerks or morons, here.  We do need to have standards.  We need to honor Albert's vision for this group, to help people find a way thru a pandemic.  We need to find a way to keep fake info out of this group.  So, here is what I propose. You can keep a viewpoint and perspective.  You can even have respect as long as you don't demand respect. There is an old saying. Respect is not given, it is earned.  Here is what I propose, Ask Chuck or DJ before you post a site or a LINK or so.  Have them look it up, first before you post.  If  you are willing to do this then, it shows good faith and willingness to insure that information is correct and that the site can be trusted.   There are plenty of lurkers here who don't reply or comment.  They may be from a society or nation that  doesn't have the information from a proper source.     I know that this may get me kicked out of this group.  It is a moral imperative that truthful information is presented by the group.  If this is my last post, I thank everyone who have been supportive of us.  

😉

Agree, ME, respect must be earned.  Some people earn that respect, some do not.  And then there are the cases where you start out respecting someone, and then "familiarity breeds contempt".  I have seen some folks on here that I used to respect seeming to agree with some socially irresponsible actions, that have taken my breath away and caused me to rethink my opinions of them.

I share your concern for the lurkers, ME, that is why I and I'm sure a few others respond to some items, especially some of the more outlandish items that we see on here.

I don't think anyone's bouncing you out of here, ME.  I think if they tried a few of us would follow you out.  

You earned a lot more of my respect, ME, than most of the anti-vax posters, covid deniers and whole panoply of people for whom point-scoring outweighs the risking of peoples lives.

I have long shared your view that we provide a valuable service.  I actually joined the site originally so I could give something back.  So, I try to prune the misinformation tree where I can.  But it is a tenacious bu&&er, as difficult to remove as ground elder and more dangerous than poison ivy.  I wish I could do more, but another tenet of this site is one of free speech.  That is why, even before asking, I know Albert would not accept that "vetting" of posts.  

I realy wish I understood where this all sprang from.  I can't fully believe the rubbish being spouted and don't grasp why it is being swallowed by inteligent, rational people.  Believe me, I'm as frustrated as you are!  And as dissappointed as ViQueen in some of the people for whom I had such high regard. 

 ... ' And yes, I would bounce out after you too.  The only point of doing this moderating job (time-consuming, lonely and thankless) is to help people.  I can't remain a party to something I am certain will cost lives.

I think the respect Dutch Josh was talking about was not the kind earned but the respect of another person's point of view and more importantly, their right to hold a point of view that is different from yours.

A person is fully entitled to their views.  A person is entitled to express their views.  EXCEPT where those views risk harm to anothe.

A final note from me.  Bye!

ME163 wrote: Respect also means posting true sources of information and not misleading people with fake news and disinformation.   Respect means that people do not try to bully people into following a fake media story.  Respect means that people don't demand respect when they spread fake and deceptive info.   Believe it or not, there are lurkers and others who follow this site and actually follow the advice on this site.  People actually use this site for info.  They can't trust their own health officials or can't afford to go to a hospital or the medication.  We need to have standards.  Right now, there are people who are dying from COVID because they believed the fake news or lies that have been spread around the internet.  I can't in good faith allow myself to be associated with a site that spews fake news and fake, misleading items on a Killer Virus.  I just heard that another classmate of mine died from COVID.  We don't need to be jerks or morons, here.  We do need to have standards.  We need to honor Albert's vision for this group, to help people find a way thru a pandemic.  We need to find a way to keep fake info out of this group.  So, here is what I propose. You can keep a viewpoint and perspective.  You can even have respect as long as you don't demand respect. There is an old saying. Respect is not given, it is earned.  Here is what I propose, Ask Chuck or DJ before you post a site or a LINK or so.  Have them look it up, first before you post.  If  you are willing to do this then, it shows good faith and willingness to insure that information is correct and that the site can be trusted.   There are plenty of lurkers here who don't reply or comment.  They may be from a society or nation that  doesn't have the information from a proper source.     I know that this may get me kicked out of this group.  It is a moral imperative that truthful information is presented by the group.  If this is my last post, I thank everyone who have been supportive of us.

I'm not sure if this response is aimed at me, but I'll give it a go just in case.

Firstly, what fake news???? I can't see any. All that seems to be happening is that some people, like me, are saying that the vaccines are probably a good fit for people with health concerns but since I don't have any, I don't feel that it's right for me. But feel free to point out any fake news you think I'm toting, but btw, if someone doesn't agree with you, it doesn't make it fake news.

Secondly, I simply made the very valid point that time is a constant and in 10 years time we'll know exactly how safe the vaccines are. My children will be in their early 20's then, and then they might decide to have them, but of course, a better vaccine will probably have come along in the mean time, as the virus mutates. 

Thirdly, as for running my ideas or links past DJ or Chuck prior to posting, why? For all their skills, I don't think either of them has a crystal ball or a time machine - but do correct me if I'm wrong on that - and so all they can offer is their opinion. Chuck is obviously a doctor and an expert advisor to the powers that be, but even he will admit he can't guarantee the long term safety of these vaccines. He can say that according to the latest research etc etc, or in certainly looks like, or they most likely will be, but neither he, nor any other person on earth right now can say with certainty that they are fine. As for fact checking, again, why? There are so many reports coming out that they are tripping over themselves and a "fact" can be cancelled by a new report the very next day.

This doesn't make me an anti vaxxer. My 90 year old father is unlikely to be around in 10 years so the vaccine was a no brainer for him. But for a 10 year child with their whole lives before them???? Really??? Based on a supposition or a whim or an opinion or a probability????? Not for my kids thanks very much, but by all means go for your life with your own. I'm not trying to talk anyone out of it, I'm just expressing my opinion.

And fyi, I wasn't asking for your respect. But I can tell you from years of experience on this site, that the second people start not to respect another person's right to an opinion, then lots of people get upset and everyone starts throwing their toys out of the pram - as I think we're starting to see happening now.

And finally, no one's kicking you out of the group. Calm down. Thankfully there is freedom of speech on here. I was just hoping that people could be even slightly open minded but perhaps that was too much to hope for with such an emotive subject as this one. The great thing about this site is that Albert does welcome freedom of speech.

Well since everyone's blood lust is up, why don't we arrange a public flogging this weekend for a bit of light relief............  

There's nothing like a perceived grievance to focus and unite a group of people is there?

It may interest you to know that the largest group of people with vaccine hesitancy is found amongst those who hold Phds.

Enjoy your witch hunt. It's going so well.

DJ, Good morning all ! Just having my breakfast-some coffee !

A few points; 

-This forum has been doing a very good job in "offering room" for people to share their thoughts and opinions. This is NOT a medical/science forum ! 

-Cobber is defending the idea that "Covid" is not worse then the flu. I would love to be able to see it that way...My idea that we may be close to 10X the "official"  number of people that died in this pandemic so far goes to the other "extreme"...

-Kiwimum is putting some questions at the vaccines-questions I also have. Long term safety etc. 

-I think most vaccines are great-a miracle ! Over 90% protection against severe disease is-as far as I know-much better then the 60% protection flu vaccines offer !

-However vaccination strategy has been a total disaster-in my opinion (and just my opinion-I am NOT an expert except in sharing my breakfast with an internet forum ! Some coffee...)...For two reasons mainly;

 1-Leaky vaccines, vaccination going very slow...so the (RNA-single string-much less stabil=lots of mutations )virus gets all the room formutating-variants...This global vaccination may be the best for now-but it is simply not going to get us out of this pandemic !

 2-With slow, not perfect vaccinations/vaccines we did reopen way to much ! (One step forward then two steps back !). Global air travel is almost-in some area's at pre-pandemic level ! A lot of countries did stop NPI/masks etc (if not by rule then by (in)action)...

I can understand some people do want to wait a little longer before getting vaccinated. I am NOT going to attack them for their choices...

However...they are not on this forum, have their own sponsored subculture, there are also "small cults" spreading/creating all kind of crazy garbage...

I am here on this forum to make my mind up...get info/spread info (with links the best I can). I do not allways read all of what people write here on this forum...Time is an issue...I try to limit my non-sense the best I can...

A pandemic is ALLWAYS a complex long term development. 

ME163-You have seen horror, experienced horrors...You are trying to do a good job-but so is KiwiMum ! Techno is kicking all the persons out that try to make a mess (selling pasports etc...)...Even experts are not on the same line in this pandemic....

Respect to you all...even to Cobber with who I most disagree. But he is willing to accept that others have another view !

Also respect to those that follow this site (I hope among many other sources !)...you all understand this is an OPINION-site ! Nothing else !

So Cobber did you ever think that your starting post would cause such a flurry of debate?  Good job giving this forum life again in my opinion 

To be honest,I only read the 1st couple of lines of cobbers post,

Before I went off into my rant.....

Sick of him calling Covid a powder puff.....

A few weeks ago he was asking all sorts of questions,which for someone calling it a Powerpuff seemed odd....techno, explained it all to him ....... again!!!!!

Cobbers probably lockdown in Adalaide ,

With Sydney,and the whole of NSW ,and Half of Australia in one form of lockdown at the moment,

Thinking governments are hysterical is Inane, and totally without foundation and ignorant,

if anything the government's are not telling us the truth at how bad it really is....

As I said,

Please explain the logic to this assumption.......(why the lockdowns loss of millions $$$ ???)

If you are unable to.....

Then accept that it is a  serious situation,and could get worse ,with new variants on the horizon.....

Take care all 😷😉💉

MASS PSYCHOSIS

Yes a world gone crazy... (case in point)

Just reading back through this thread. There seems to be some wild discussion going on. Sorry for stirring the pot. I've been accused of saying Covid is less deadly than the flu. This is not correct. I try to only quoted from statistics and deliberately so. 

To clarify further and save confusion: The Flu kills 0.01% of people who are infected (roughly). Covid kills 0.03% of people infected. YES Covid is more deadly. Covid also infects more people and spreads through the community faster. IE Killing more. 

Having said this, I still say Covid is a powderpuff. It's not a slate wiper such as the Spanish Flu. I believe the community has over reacted to the virus and should have used much more effective strategies for dealing with it. Instead we ended up in a situation where the virus will drag on for a lot longer than it should have. 

I don't want to get into the better strategy, just to say that the response has been OTT.  Especially in Australia

This isn't why I came back to this thread. I came back to discuss mass hysteria. The guy who invented the mRNA vaccine, Robert Malone MD, MS, discusses it in one of his blogs.

here is the link: https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/mass-formation-psychosis - https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/mass-formation-psychosis

Its interesting read, and I put it here to help. 

I listened to a podcast a month or so ago about mass psychosis with a Dutch professor of psychology and it was fascinating. Amongst the criteria required for mass psychosis to form was for people to be lonely and feel disconnected, and the psychosis would give them a sense of belonging. Well that's never been more true than in todays society when so many people are isolated and lonely. So many, particularly elderly people live alone or away from their families, and so many young people have "friends" that they've never actually met. Their lives are conducted online. People today don't belong to a "tribe" and in new age circles there is always talk of "finding your tribe" and that happens online today with young people. 

All of a sudden, disparate and disconnected people are able to join together in fear and hate to berate others and it makes them feel worthwhile and important. This is perhaps why so many people are desperate for the pandemic to keep going. They don't want to give up that sense of belonging that they have found and go back to the state they were in before. 

It an unrelated but slightly related subject, at a talk I went to about earthquakes, and there was talk there about how people will cope once their access to the internet disappears along with the power. For some people, it will be like drug withdrawal.

Yeah Kiwi, Its a drug. Scary problem, solution, calm. Scarier problem, solution and calm. Do it enough times and eventually people rely on it. 

So Covid was not the slate wiper you were excited for to get your adrenaline. Rush. I suggest that nothing will ever become a slate wiper because of the major advances in Rna based vaccine that have come from this practice run. We are at the start of something that will see the greatest advances in biomedical research ever. I liken it to man’s push to the moon in the 1960’s. What a great time to be alive and see it unfold

The world has been ending for me since i was a twelve year old. I remember the cuban missle crisis, polio, aids,etc. Aids was frightening because of its long incubation period and its single outcome which was death. I am cautious concerning covid but not frightened. I followed the virus from the beginning. Early on the cruise ship diamond princess gave me a good set of numbers. 4000 on board, 10 deaths or 1 in 400 which is a 0.25% death rate. Now realizing that the cruise ship was probably a worst case scenario for several reasons. Aged population, population density greater then new york city, and ventilated i figured that covid would be bad but not an existential threat. So far my numbers have held up. I do not believe that you can hide from a virus. 

On masks, i know that the virus is smaller then the filtering capability but i thought that still they are better than nothing. So i wear the mask when i go into a store.  I still see the family which i feel really ups my odds of infection when you look at the number of people every family member is exposed to. But i refuse to give up certain things to maintain the illusion of safety.

On the vaccine, i am not vaccinated although my whole family is.  i am not an anti-vaxer, i have my own reasons for staying away from this vaccine. I believe that the aids virus grew out of polio vax manufature and testing in africa. They were in a rush for fame and fortune and made mistakes  and the similarity to now scared me.  I know that this vaccine has been tested lightly since the 80's but in use it is a new technology and i wish they had used it somewhere for real on a smaller scale before giving it to the whole world. 

Currently my wife who is fully vaccinated is suffering from a bad case of covid.  Although we sleep in the same bed i still havent caught it.  Maybe i just have a good immune system. I did have a bad head cold due to the fridgid temps outside and having to plow the driveway during a snowfall. I do laugh when i see hundreds of people standing outside for hours in the fridgid cold to get a covid test.

So i guess i will continue on as i am doing. I am retired and the one way this thing has affected my life is that i dont go to the bar anymore to have a guiness which was one of my real pleasures.  Tomorrow is promised to none of us so i will just go on and hope for the best. May all of you remain safe!

Hi George, thanks for sharing your view of things. My cousin is not vaccinated and her husband is. Covid came to their family via a teenage daughter and the whole family caught it. My cousin was really quite ill with it, but her husband was so ill he was taken to hospital and spent 10 days on the Covid ward. There were 6 men in there, 5 were vaccinated. 

There's an interesting book by Eleanor McBean called The Poisoned Needle (1956), and she suggests that the Spanish Flu was only fatal in people who'd received a vaccine shortly beforehand. Her family had refused the all purpose vaccine that was being offered in 1917/1918, and were the only family in her village to refuse it. Then the Spanish Flu appeared, and her family were the only people in the whole village who didn't get it. Her parents went from house to house helping people and tending to the sick and still didn't get it, and she concluded that the two were linked. An interesting idea.

Kiwi that is an interesting idea. See the below study which finds the higher countries are vaxxed the more cases and deaths are prevelent.

Worldwide Bayesian Causal Impact Analysis of Vaccine Administration on Deaths and Cases Associated with COVID-19: A BigData Analysis of 145 Countries

Policy makers and mainstream news anchors have promised the public that the COVID-19 vaccine rollout worldwide would reduce symptoms, and thereby cases and deaths associated with COVID-19. While this vaccine rollout is still in progress, there is a large amount of public data available that permits an analysis of the effect of the vaccine rollout on COVID-19 related cases and deaths. Has this public policy treatment produced the desired effect? One manner to respond to this question can begin by implementing a Bayesian causal analysis comparing both pre- and post-treatment periods. This study analyzed publicly available COVID-19 data from OWID utlizing the R package CausalImpact to determine the causal effect of the administration of vaccines on two dependent variables that have been measured cumulatively throughout the pandemic: total deaths per million (y1) and total cases per million (y2). After eliminating all results from countries with p > 0.05, there were 128 countries for y1 and 103 countries for y2 to analyze in this fashion, comprising 145 unique countries in total (avg. p < 0.004). Results indicate that the treatment (vaccine administration) has a strong and statistically significant propensity to causally increase the values in either y1 or y2 over and above what would have been expected with no treatment. y1 showed an increase/decrease ratio of (+115/-13), which means 89.84% of statistically significant countries showed an increase in total deaths per million associated with COVID-19 due directly to the causal impact of treatment initiation. y2 showed an increase/decrease ratio of (+105/-16) which means 86.78% of statistically significant countries showed an increase in total cases per million of COVID-19 due directly to the causal impact of treatment initiation. Causal impacts of the treatment on y1 ranges from -19% to +19015% with an average causal impact of +463.13%. Causal impacts of the treatment on y2 ranges from -46% to +12240% with an average causal impact of +260.88%. Hypothesis 1 Null can be rejected for a large majority of countries. This study subsequently performed correlational analyses on the causal impact results, whose effect variables can be represented as y1.E and y2.E respectively, with the independent numeric variables of: days elapsed since vaccine rollout began (n1), total vaccination doses per hundred (n2), total vaccine brands/types in use (n3) and the independent categorical variables continent (c1), country (c2), vaccine variety (c3). All categorical variables showed statistically significant (avg. p: < 0.001) postive Wilcoxon signed rank values (y1.E V:[c1 3.04; c2: 8.35; c3: 7.22] and y2.E V:[c1 3.04; c2: 8.33; c3: 7.19]). This demonstrates that the distribution of y1.E and y2.E was non-uniform among categories. The Spearman correlation between n2 and y2.E was the only numerical variable that showed statistically significant results (y2.E ~ n2: rho: 0.34 CI95%[0.14, 0.51], p: 4.91e-04). This low positive correlation signifies that countries with higher vaccination rates do not have lower values for y2.E, slightly the opposite in fact. Still, the specifics of the reasons behind these differences between countries, continents, and vaccine types is inconclusive and should be studied further as more data become available. Hypothesis 2 Null can be rejected for c1, c2, c3 and n2 and cannot be rejected for n1, and n3. The statistically significant and overwhelmingly positive causal impact after vaccine deployment on the dependent variables total deaths and total cases per million should be highly worrisome for policy makers. They indicate a marked increase in both COVID-19 related cases and death due directly to a vaccine deployment that was originally sold to the public as the “key to gain back our freedoms.” The effect of vaccines on total cases per million and its low positive association with total vaccinations per hundred signifies a limited impact of vaccines on lowering COVID-19 associated cases. These results should encourage local policy makers to make policy decisions based on data, not narrative, and based on local conditions, not global or national mandates. These results should also encourage policy makers to begin looking for other avenues out of the pandemic aside from mass vaccination campaigns. Some variables that could be included in future analyses might include vaccine lot by country, the degree of prevalence of previous antibodies against SARS-CoV or SARS-CoV-2 in the population before vaccine administration begins, and the Causal Impact of ivermectin on the same variables used in this study.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356248984_Worldwide_Bayesian_Causal_Impact_Analysis_of_Vaccine_Administration_on_Deaths_and_Cases_Associated_with_COVID-19_A_BigData_Analysis_of_145_Countries - https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356248984_Worldwide_Bayesian_Causal_Impact_Analysis_of_Vaccine_Administration_on_Deaths_and_Cases_Associated_with_COVID-19_A_BigData_Analysis_of_145_Countries

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356248984_Worldwide_Bayesian_Causal_Impact_Analysis_of_Vaccine_Administration_on_Deaths_and_Cases_Associated_with_COVID-19_A_BigData_Analysis_of_145_Countries -

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356248984_Worldwide_Bayesian_Causal_Impact_Analysis_of_Vaccine_Administration_on_Deaths_and_Cases_Associated_with_COVID-19_A_BigData_Analysis_of_145_Countries -

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/356248984_Worldwide_Bayesian_Causal_Impact_Analysis_of_Vaccine_Administration_on_Deaths_and_Cases_Associated_with_COVID-19_A_BigData_Analysis_of_145_Countries">

Thank to both of you for the book reference and analysis.   A great book in which the author makes a case that the aids virus grew from polio vaccine testing and manufacture in africa is the river by hooper.  Its about a thousand pages but a fantastic read.  Its out of print but second hand copies are available on amazon. If you try to get it make sure its by hooper. Another book with the same name came out later which was a waste and i thought it was done just to muddy the great research of hooper.

Who Is this George 99???  Maybe not everyone is crazy after all. 

You talk about the cruise ships. Legend stuff. I remember Virologists discussing it at the time as the perfect testcase. We used their data to calculate deaths stratified over an entire population, and came up with an Infection fatality Rate of 0.03%. It has proven to be fairly accurate. (Omicron less deadly) (Powderpuff)

Then we watched the Media and the public go absolutely bloody nuts. The world is bonkers

I'm over it...

PS: Its funny that some people here point to Polio as a successful vaccine. I usually don't provide a rebuttal as its a not worth arguing with stupid

Reuters source 

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-polio-idUSLAU88516220071008 - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-polio-idUSLAU88516220071008

The disasters around Polio vaccine are unbelievable. 

My dad had Polio after being vaccinated as a child

cobber wrote: Reuters source  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-polio-idUSLAU88516220071008 - https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nigeria-polio-idUSLAU88516220071008 The disasters around Polio vaccine are unbelievable.  My dad had Polio after being vaccinated as a child

So did my uncle.

population...now there is a word you seldom heard when the media is touting cases and deaths...lol...i never felt you could hide from a virus but i guess people who think they can control climate believe they have power over everything...i on the other hand feel  the world is and will continue to be a dangerous place and i act accordingly! Best to all of you !

The continuation of a world gone crazy now spins into WW3. 

From Fake virus to fake war. 

lmao...just checked back here after a month or so...prior to the ukraine mess...noticed i wrote that the world is a dangerous place....one month later covid stats rising...us stopped reporting and its like covid never existed...and the ukraine has been invaded by russia...the media is only reporting "facts" from the ukrainians, the cia, the defense and state department. Sec Ruland a primary force in us ukraine policy admits in front of a senate committee that "biolabs" exist in ukraine and she is worried that the russians will capture them and access the "research"....on another event...poland repeatedly says it doesnt want to sent fighters to poland...sec blinken then greenlights the transfer...poland says fine...we will send the jets to ramstein...an interesting choice because it contains nato hq...usaf europe hq and usaf africa hq...and poland also says that the us govt can dispose of the jets anyway they want after poland delivers them...translation...hey usa...if you want to start a nato war with russia have at it..poland wont be your sacrificial lamb...poland has seen this movie before...speaking of movies...if you can see it before it is vanished...catch ukraine on fire by roger stone...nice historical perspective which presents an alternative to the official narrative....and roger stone is interesting in that he was born well off and actually enlisted in the army and served in vietnam....anyway enough of a rant...with a nuclear winter looming i guess the covid virus isnt the existential threat that many thought it was....so be safe all and hang onto something solid...btw...i am 72 and have seen all this stuff many times before and i am still breathing...in spite of those nasty cigarettes

btw in 72 years there were only three real scary events...the first was the kennedy assassination...the second was the cuban missile crisis and the third was the early stages of the aids virus...although with the stupidity shown in the west on the ukraine invasion it may make the cut

Isn't it funny that in Europe everyone was talking about Brexit all day long. Every single newspaper article had the word Brexit in it somewhere, then along comes Covid and Brexit vanishes without a trace. 

And now the same thing is happening to poor old Covid. It's being rapidly ousted by WW3. 

I predict Aliens will be next, and then if we're lucky an asteroid strike! Ha ahahahahahaha

A-I wrote: KiwiMum wrote: Isn't it funny that in Europe everyone was talking about Brexit all day long. Every single newspaper article had the word Brexit in it somewhere, then along comes Covid and Brexit vanishes without a trace.  And now the same thing is happening to poor old Covid. It's being rapidly ousted by WW3.  I predict Aliens will be next, and then if we're lucky an asteroid strike! Ha ahahahahahaha Yeah and 20 years ago they said in 20 years global warming would cause the sea levels to rise 40 feet and flood the coastlines of the world displacing millions upon millions of people. Meh sea levels still haven't risen, still waiting for that to happen. LOL. Doom is always right around the corner. LOL

Doom is what sells newspapers!

The papers here printed a headline 3 days ago saying that there were huge price increases coming in petrol that evening, and all of a sudden there were queues up the road. In the end, that evening, fuel went up 6 cents a litre. They did the same with cat food, saying that there were supply chain issues and within hours it had all gone from the shelves from panic buying.