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Online Discussion: Tracking new emerging diseases and the next pandemic; Coronavirus Pandemic Discussion Forum.

Real facts: Which COVID19 treatments work

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Rootmeister View Drop Down
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    Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:03am

"In   the field of molecular modeling, docking is a method which predicts   the  preferred orientation of one molecule to a second when bound to   each  other to form a stable complex."

I   have docked several ligands (drugs) which are touted to work as "cure"   or "treatment" of the Covid-19 to couple of the proteins related to   covid-19. Anyone can verify these results I present. I can share the   docking parameters as well if one needs them.

Preparation of the ligands and proteins is done according to the art.

If   you want me to run simulations for particular compound to these   proteins, just ask and I'll do it and post the results here. I am   willing to run the simulations to other proteins as well if you will   provide the information needed (PDBid and the site of binding. If not,   I'll just do blind docking for the prepared protein).

For   the results, more negative Gibbs free energy, the merrier binding and   efficacy of the drugs. Results ranging from -7 kcal/mol to -15 kcal/mol   are relevant. F.ex. -15 kcal/mol is highly active (and probably quite   selective as well). Anything from -6.9 to 0 kcal/mol can be discarded.   They might work for something else though. From this info you can  deduce  yourself what drug/ligand works and what not (check the ADME(t))  - at  least to that particular protein. Unfortunately I cannot dock   (colloidal) silver... Which I do make and ingest myself (for other   reasons). So please, stop the gossiping and guessing.

PDBid: 6LU7  (COVID-19 main protease):

Allicin:  -3.4 kcal/mol

Alliin:  -4.3 kcal/mol

Azhitromycin:  -6.4 kcal/mol

Chloroquine:  -6.1 kcal/mol

Curcumin:  -6.8 kcal/mol

GS-441524:  -6.5 kcal/mol

Hydrogen peroxide:  -2.9 kcal/mol  (it could work, if it destroys the protein by oxidation!)

Hydroxychloroquine:  -5.8 kcal/mol

Oseltamivir:  -6.3  kcal/mol

Ricinoleic_acid:  -4.4 kcal/mol

Scopolamine:  -7.2  kcal/mol

Sulforaphane:  -3.7 kcal/mol

Vitamin-C:  -5.2 kcal/mol (if it works, it works by massive dosages generating hydrogen peroxide)

(Based   on these results, scopolamine binds the most tightly to the main   protease. It doesn't mean that it renders the protein inactive though!   Curcumin seems to work as well but it requires to consume black pepper  (piperine) as well!.

PDBid: 6VSB (2019-nCoV spike glycoprotein):

Allicin:  -4.0 kcal/mol

Alliin:  -4.7 kcal/mol

Azhitromycin:  -7.7 kcal/mol

Chloroquine:  -6.1 kcal/mol

Curcumin:  -7.6 kcal/mol

GS-441524:  -7.1 kcal/mol

Hydrogen peroxide:  -3.4 kcal/mol (it could work, if it destroys the protein by oxidation!)

Hydroxychloroquine:  -6.4 kcal/mol

Oseltamivir:  -6.5 kcal/mol

Ricinoleic_acid:  -5.6 kcal/mol

Scopolamine:  -7.3 kcal/mol

Sulforaphane:  -4.1 kcal/mol

Vitamin-C:  -5.6 kcal/mol (if it works, it works by massive dosages generating hydrogen peroxide)

Based   on these results, azhitromycin binds the best to the spike   glycoprotein  with curcumin almost on par. Hydroxychoroquine isn't   nearly as  effective.

As  you see,  for example curcumin has comparable affinities to synthesized  drugs   for the main protease and spike glycoprotein. And this is probably  the reason India does not have so much of covid-19 cases due to the  curry they eat.

And  the offtopic part:  Does someone know what is the antibody for this  particular covid   strain? I'm suspecting the ongoing tests can't  discriminate between   this covid from some other (harmless) coronavirus.  Hence so much   positives. If you have the info, please forward the DOI to  the article or link to the protein...

I hope someone pins this thread or moves it to r/Coronavirus,   otherwise it's like pearls before swine... My account is too fresh to   post anything to there. Anyway, I say: fuck the governments and   official  medical agencies and so called "doctors" who claim this and   that works  without publishing any hard facts to the public. Everybody   should do their own research and not allow lead themselves stray due to laziness  to do some due diligence checking. And never trust the mass   media. I have the opinion the virus is most  definitely lab made. There are no credible peer reviewed articles  stating otherwise and I have   read them all. The best one, full of crap  when you examine it thoroghly   (dx.doi.org/10.1038/s41591-020-0820-9)   - which every major politically inclined newspaper at least in Finland   referred to - just poses some possibilities it could have evolved in   nature - that's all. Instead there are loads of articles describing   artificial mutations done for it. (f.ex one from 2008 describing how the   the HIV-inserts are introduced to bind to ACE2-receptors. Such as https://jvi.asm.org/content/jvi/82/4/1899.full.pdf). They are fully disregarded and discredited. I wonder why? To cause massive panic and financial crisis apparently.

"It  isn't only art that's incompatible with happiness; it's also science. Science is dangerous; we have to keep it most carefully chained and   muzzled.... You've had no scientific training, so you can't judge. I was  a pretty good physicist in my time. Too good–good enough to realize   that all our science is just a cookery book, with an orthodox theory of cooking that nobody's allowed to question, and a list of recipes that   mustn't be added to except by special permission from the head cook. I'm  the head cook now. But I was an inquisitive young scullion once. I   started doing a bit of cooking on my own. Unorthodox cooking, illicit   cooking. A bit of real science, in fact." -A.H

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:29am

Sorry Rootmeister, my sterio-isometry + enzymatic shape specificity is not up to the task.  Can you explain why the orientation of the ligands either does or does not inactivate protein-receptor site binding?

Also I believe that the binding site is not the point of effecasy for choloroquine, but the elevated import of zinc into cells across their own barriers, so it is actually the level of zinc in the cytoplasm that makes chloroquine work.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIymfznD7YA

I'm still learning here.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rootmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:42am

"Knowledge of the preferred orientation in turn may be used to predict the strength of association or binding affinity between two molecules."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docking_(molecular)


You may also want to read https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0924857920300996


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:49am

Thank you.  I am off to read the Wikipedia article.  I had seen the other.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 8:57am

I had correctly worked out the gyst it seems, but this is very detailed for a layman like me and I will be spending many hours working out the precise meaning of several bits of it.  

Starting out as a layman, it is all too easy to jump to the conclusion you have understood something when you have it backwards.  Lock and key was my understanding,  hand and glove is obviously a better analogy.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiminNM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 2:27pm

Thank you, this is extremely helpful.  (I have zero background in this, and you made it mostly understandable!)

You've probably seen it, but here's a link to all the drugs currently in trials - there's a handy chart of all the drugs and drug combos at the bottom of the page. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41587-020-00003-1 

Also, if it doesn't take much time, would you be able to check Famciclovir?  I know they have ruled out anti-viral herpes drugs because they work differently, but for weeks I've had a little voice thinking that one might be different for some reason.  


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiminNM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 21 2020 at 3:01pm

Also, how much turmeric/curcumin are we all going to be taking now???  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rootmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 6:30am

I docked the small ligands from the handy list you provided. Will dock later the antibodies using MegaDock 4.

Results: (Edited, added Aciclovir, Famciclovir and Penciclovir)

Main protease (PDBid 6LU7):

Azvudine: -7.0 kcal/mol
Baloxavir_marboxil: -7.7 kcal/mol
Baloxavir_acid: -8.1 kcal/mol
Lopinavir: -6.3 kcal/mol
Methylprednisolone: -6.7 kcal/mol
Remdesivir: -8.2 kcal/mol
Ritonavir: -6.5 kcal/mol
Umifenovir: -6.6 kcal/mol
Famciclovir: -6.2 kcal/mol
Penciclovir: -5.4 kcal/mol
Aciclovir: -5.3 kcal/mol

Spike protein (PDBid 6VSB)

Azvudine: -7.7 kcal/mol
Baloxavir_marboxil: -10.5 kcal/mol
Baloxavir_acid: -10.1 kcal/mol
Lopinavir: -9.1 kcal/mol
Methylprednisolone: -9.2 kcal/mol
Remdesivir: -7.9 kcal/mol
Ritonavir: -9.2 kcal/mol
Umifenovir: -7.5 kcal/mol
Famciclovir: -7.3 kcal/mol
Penciclovir: -7.0 kcal/mol

Aciclovir:  -6.3 kcal/mol

So Baloxavir is the way to go

As for the Curcumin dosage; I'd say 12g/day (plus hefty amount of black pepper to increase it's absorption). https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1756464617307399



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 6:57am

Thank you!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KiminNM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 7:26am

Thank you SO much! 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interwebber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 23 2020 at 11:59pm

[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH]

Not this one! 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 2:45am

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH]

Not this one! 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx.

Sure!  I see NO scientific justification whatsoever to recommend the use of chloroquine for COVID-19 treatment.  The supporting evidence is anecdotal, and the drug is so toxic that you would be better off letting the viral infection run its course IMHO.  

There were many drugs in testing for SARS and MERS that are being screened for SARS-CoV2, but these are not coming quickly enough to help Italy and Spain.  The best treatment remains aggressive social distancing along with widespread testing and isolation of positive cases (not just symptomatic cases).

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 3:31am

Rumor in these parts is it's the reason NYC is getting 400 ventilators from the feds today... I'll leave it there.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 4:27am

Simple!  Take the literature with you and the pills if sick and going in to hopspital.  Let the doc do it!  I have (still in transit) azithromycin and chloroquine and (sitting in my hall)  oxygen concentrators and pulse oximiters.  The plan is:

Plan A, Don't catch it.

Plan B, Be healthy enough to survive it unaided

Plan C, Have my own supplies to go with me in case I need hospital rescources they don't have, but still go in.

Plan D, If no doctors, or given a red armband- only then treat at home.

I don't have a plan E - yet!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiminNM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 6:04am

Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

Simple!  Take the literature with you and the pills if sick and going in to hopspital.  Let the doc do it!  I have (still in transit) azithromycin and chloroquine and (sitting in my hall)  oxygen concentrators and pulse oximiters.  The plan is:

Plan A, Don't catch it.

Plan B, Be healthy enough to survive it unaided

Plan C, Have my own supplies to go with me in case I need hospital rescources they don't have, but still go in.

Plan D, If no doctors, or given a red armband- only then treat at home.

I don't have a plan E - yet!

THIS. Exactly this. (Except I don't have an oxygen concentrator, I have the cans that are 95% oxygen vs medical grade.) 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kaye kaye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 2:20pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH]

Not this one! 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx.

Sure!  I see NO scientific justification whatsoever to recommend the use of chloroquine for COVID-19 treatment.  The supporting evidence is anecdotal, and the drug is so toxic that you would be better off letting the viral infection run its course IMHO.  

There were many drugs in testing for SARS and MERS that are being screened for SARS-CoV2, but these are not coming quickly enough to help Italy and Spain.  The best treatment remains aggressive social distancing along with widespread testing and isolation of positive cases (not just symptomatic cases).

It was for the fish tank not human consumption.  

keep the joy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 2:23pm

Originally posted by kaye kaye kaye kaye wrote:

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH]

Not this one! 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx.

Sure!  I see NO scientific justification whatsoever to recommend the use of chloroquine for COVID-19 treatment.  The supporting evidence is anecdotal, and the drug is so toxic that you would be better off letting the viral infection run its course IMHO.  

There were many drugs in testing for SARS and MERS that are being screened for SARS-CoV2, but these are not coming quickly enough to help Italy and Spain.  The best treatment remains aggressive social distancing along with widespread testing and isolation of positive cases (not just symptomatic cases).

It was for the fish tank not human consumption.  

I have years of experience in virology, immunology and infectious disease epidemiology.  I was one of the first academics to make the connection between HIV and male sex practices.  If and when I hear of a legitimate therapy for SARS-CoV2, I'll post it here.  You are wasting your money and putting your life at risk with chloroquine.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote kaye kaye Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 3:09pm

 Myself the only thing extra I am taking is emergen-c  gummies and magnesium. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interwebber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 9:54pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by kaye kaye kaye kaye wrote:

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

[QUOTE=CRS, DrPH]

Not this one! 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/man-died-chloroquine-phosphate-coronavirus

I saw this earlier today as well and it got me thinking. Was it the dosage they took or the fact that it wasn't quality controlled for human consumption. Obviously we have all seen promising results out there from chloroquine related to Covid-19 but none of the stories (including the one you linked) detail the reason why these folks had such adverse effects. I'm sure if a doctor had told them to do this the results wouldn't have been any different. As an expert, would love to hear your thoughts... Thx.

Sure!  I see NO scientific justification whatsoever to recommend the use of chloroquine for COVID-19 treatment.  The supporting evidence is anecdotal, and the drug is so toxic that you would be better off letting the viral infection run its course IMHO.  

There were many drugs in testing for SARS and MERS that are being screened for SARS-CoV2, but these are not coming quickly enough to help Italy and Spain.  The best treatment remains aggressive social distancing along with widespread testing and isolation of positive cases (not just symptomatic cases).

It was for the fish tank not human consumption.  

I have years of experience in virology, immunology and infectious disease epidemiology.  I was one of the first academics to make the connection between HIV and male sex practices.  If and when I hear of a legitimate therapy for SARS-CoV2, I'll post it here.  You are wasting your money and putting your life at risk with chloroquine.  

Thanks for the response. BTW I have no intention of ingesting fish tank cleaner. Was just wondering what else was in this crap that killed the guy, was it overdose, or just poor quality controls? I acted early on (over a month ago) based on information in this forum and anecdotal evidence I saw elsewhere to secure a small amount of chloroquine through an online pharmacy. The only scenario I would consider taking it would be in a SHTF scenario where I or a loved one was turned away for care because of overloaded healthcare system, and even that with consultation of a doctor. I am not sorry I did what I did (no it is not a waste of money or putting my life at risk) if I or someone I love is on their death bed from COVID-19. This drug has basically been around forever. While side effects are real, scare mongering about them is ridiculous. My dad has lots of health problems and was prescribed it while serving overseas in the state department. Not to mention many doctors in my state have been writing prescriptions for themselves and their family members, and trials are beginning beyond treatment to include prophylactics for health care workers in several places. This forum is starting to seem like a place for misinformation rather than best info based on available facts at the time...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote EdwinSm, Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 11:03pm

Too many posts when I came on this morning, so I posted in detail about this https://www.avianflutalk.com/chloroquine-warning_topic42222.html


The wife is also ill.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2020 at 11:57pm

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

 This forum is starting to seem like a place for misinformation rather than best info based on available facts at the time...

Exactly.  I spend a great deal of time trying to tamp down bad information on possible cures and treatments. 

I am an advisor in a number of critical infrastructure areas including law enforcement, water/wastewater, food production, cybersecurity, power generation, oil refining and more.  If there is some "miracle cure," I'll be in the loop to hear about it.  A whole lot of folks are trying to keep the USA and other afflicted countries moving. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2020 at 4:14am

Originally posted by EdwinSm, EdwinSm, wrote:

Too many posts when I came on this morning, so I posted in detail about this https://www.avianflutalk.com/chloroquine-warning_topic42222.html


The wife is also ill.  


Oh no!  Has she been tested yet?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Rootmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2020 at 3:53pm

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Originally posted by interwebber interwebber wrote:

 This forum is starting to seem like a place for misinformation rather than best info based on available facts at the time...

Exactly.  I spend a great deal of time trying to tamp down bad information on possible cures and treatments. 

I am an advisor in a number of critical infrastructure areas including law enforcement, water/wastewater, food production, cybersecurity, power generation, oil refining and more.  If there is some "miracle cure," I'll be in the loop to hear about it.  A whole lot of folks are trying to keep the USA and other afflicted countries moving. 


I agree, but facts are that those compounds bind to the proteins of SARS-CoV-2.

Here's another list for compounds I've asked to dock:

11-keto-beta-boswellic_acid:6LU7:  -8.0
11-keto-beta-boswellic_acid:6VSB: -8.9
3-acetyl-beta-boswellic_acid:6LU7: -7.1
3-acetyl-beta-boswellic_acid:6VSB: -8.0
acetyl-11-keto-beta-boswellic_acid:6LU7: -7.6
acetyl-11-keto-beta-boswellic_acid:6VSB: -8.6
Acetylcysteine:6LU7: -4.6
Acetylcysteine:6VSB: -4.6
Aciclovir:6LU7: -5.3
Aciclovir:6VSB: -6.3
Admatine:6LU7: -4.1
Admatine:6VSB: -5.2
Adrenochrome:6LU7: -4.9
Adrenochrome:6VSB: -6.2
Amlodipine:6LU7: -5.3
Amlodipine:6VSB: -6.9
AmmoniumChloride:6LU7:
AmmoniumChloride:6VSB:
Apigenin:6LU7: -7.0
Apigenin:6VSB: -7.5
a-pinene:6LU7: -5.0
a-pinene:6VSB: -5.8
Artemisinin:6LU7: -6.6
Artemisinin:6VSB: -8.4
Artesunate:6LU7: -7.3
Artesunate:6VSB: -8.8
a-thujone:6LU7: -4.7
a-thujone:6VSB: -5.9
Azvudine:6LU7: -7.0
Azvudine:6VSB: -7.7
Baloxavir_acid:6LU7: -8.1
Baloxavir_acid:6VSB: -10.1
Baloxavir_marboxil:6LU7: -7.7
Baloxavir_marboxil:6VSB: -10.5
Boron:6LU7:
Boron:6VSB:
b-pinene:6LU7: -4.8
b-pinene:6VSB: -5.9
Bromelain:6LU7: -6.7
Bromelain:6VSB: -8.2
b-thujone:6LU7: -4.6
b-thujone:6VSB: -5.4
Cannabidiol:6LU7: -6.4
Cannabidiol:6VSB: -7.7
Capric_acid:6LU7: -4.3
Capric_acid:6VSB: -5.1
Capsaisin:6LU7: -5.7
Capsaisin:6VSB: -6.6
Chelidonine:6LU7: -6.9
Chelidonine:6VSB: -9.4
Chlorine_dioxide:6LU7: -3.0
Chlorine_dioxide:6VSB: -3.2
Cholecalciferol_VitaminD3:6LU7: -6.1
Cholecalciferol_VitaminD3:6VSB: -8.6
Cinnamaldehyde:6LU7: -4.7
Cinnamaldehyde:6VSB: -5.4
Coenzyme_Q10:6LU7: -4.2
Coenzyme_Q10:6VSB: -8.8
Coffee:6LU7: -5.2
Coffee:6VSB: -6.6
delta-9-THC:6LU7: -6.9
delta-9-THC:6VSB: -7.8
DHA:6LU7: -5.0
DHA:6VSB: -5.6
Diosgenin:6LU7: -8.1
Diosgenin:6VSB: -10.6
d-limonene:6LU7: -4.7
d-limonene:6VSB: -6.0
DMT:6LU7: -5.1
DMT:6VSB: -5.8
EPA:6LU7: -5.0
EPA:6VSB: -5.9
Epigallocatechin_gallate:6LU7: -8.6
Epigallocatechin_gallate:6VSB: -9.9
Ethanol:6LU7: -2.4
Ethanol:6VSB: -2.7
Eugenol:6LU7: -5.0
Eugenol:6VSB: -6.0
Famciclovir:6LU7: -6.2
Famciclovir:6VSB: -7.3
Folic_acid:6LU7: -7.7
Folic_acid:6VSB: -8.7
Hydroquinone:6LU7: -4.7
Hydroquinone:6VSB: -5.4
Hyperoside:6LU7: -7.7
Hyperoside:6VSB: -8.1
Ibuprofen:6LU7: -6.0
Ibuprofen:6VSB: -6.4
Iodine2:6LU7: -1.6
Iodine2:6VSB: -2.0
Iodine:6LU7: -0.9
Iodine:6VSB: -1.2
Linalool:6LU7: -4.2
Linalool:6VSB: -4.8
Lisinopril:6LU7: -6.9
Lisinopril:6VSB: -7.6
Lopinavir:6LU7: -6.3
Lopinavir:6VSB: -9.1
Losartan:6LU7: -7.4
Losartan:6VSB: -8.2
Luteolin:6LU7: -6.5
Luteolin:6VSB: -7.9
Melanin:6LU7: -7.7
Melanin:6VSB: -10.0
Methotrexate:6LU7: -7.0
Methotrexate:6VSB: -8.1
Methylprednisolone:6LU7: -6.7
Methylprednisolone:6VSB: -9.2
Mitragynine:6LU7: -6.1
Mitragynine:6VSB: -6.6
Monocaprin:6LU7: -4.7
Monocaprin:6VSB: -5.8
Monolaurin:6LU7: -4.0
Monolaurin:6VSB: -5.2
NADH:6LU7: -6.7
NADH:6VSB: -9.1
NAD+:6LU7: -7.9
NAD+:6VSB: -9.0
Naproxen:6LU7: -6.6
Naproxen:6VSB: -7.3
Nitazoxanide:6LU7: -6.0
Nitazoxanide:6VSB: -7.4
Oreganol:6LU7: -7.4
Oreganol:6VSB: -7.9
Penciclovir:6LU7: -5.4
Penciclovir:6VSB: -7.0
Phytomenadione_VitaminK1:6LU7: -5.3
Phytomenadione_VitaminK1:6VSB: -6.7
Pyronaridine:6LU7: -8.4
Pyronaridine:6VSB: -9.0
Pyrroquinoline_quinone:6LU7: -7.7
Pyrroquinoline_quinone:6VSB: -8.1
Quercetin:6LU7: -6.3
Quercetin:6VSB: -7.9
Quinine:6LU7: -6.7
Quinine:6VSB: -7.7
rac-amphetamine:6LU7: -5.5
rac-amphetamine:6VSB: -5.6
rac-methamphetamine:6LU7: -4.7
rac-methamphetamine:6VSB: -6.3
r-camphor:6LU7: -5.4
r-camphor:6VSB: -6.6
Remdesivir:6LU7: -8.2
Remdesivir:6VSB: -7.9
Ritonavir:6LU7: -6.5
Ritonavir:6VSB: -9.2
Rosmarinic_acid:6LU7: -7.6
Rosmarinic_acid:6VSB: -7.3
Rutin:6LU7: -8.7
Rutin:6VSB: -9.2
s-camphor:6LU7: -5.4
s-camphor:6VSB: -5.9
Silibinin:6LU7: -7.9
Silibinin:6VSB: -9.6
Sodiumbicarbonate:6LU7:
Sodiumbicarbonate:6VSB:
Sofosbuvir:6LU7: -7.9
Sofosbuvir:6VSB: -8.2
Taurine:6LU7: -4.1
Taurine:6VSB: -4.1
terpinen-4-ol:6LU7: -4.6
terpinen-4-ol:6VSB: -5.7
THCV:6LU7: -7.0
THCV:6VSB: -8.2
Thymol:6LU7: -5.2
Thymol:6VSB: -5.6
Umifenovir:6LU7: -6.6
Umifenovir:6VSB: -7.5
Ursolic_acid:6LU7: -8.5
Ursolic_acid:6VSB: -9.4
Vitexin:6LU7: -7.6
Vitexin:6VSB: -8.8


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2020 at 5:32pm

None of us claim to be great scientists, researchers or journalists.  We are just a bunch of free thinkers, exercising free speech.  We usually just put the information out there and rely on each others to apply their brains.  We like to think we have a plethora of them.

That puts us ahead of the curve more times than not. We knew of this disease in December: https://www.avianflutalk.com/china-investigates-sars-like-pneumonia-disease_topic40290_page1.html?KW=pneumonia


When it comes to treatments (there are none yet) or potential treatments, we are just looking around.  Yes, Rootmeister, your modeling gives a huge boost to the search for one line of treatments - those which attempt to block the receptor attachment of the virus, thereby preventing cell access and the resulting short list of candidates could save months, or even years, in that search.  But there are other avenues of potential treatments as well, such as the RNA replication within the cell, immune boosting, immune training and symptomatic support of bodily functions until said body recoveres itself or even phage therapy.  

This in no way diminishes what you do; it accompanies it.  We do not advocate any specific approach, except extreme social distancing and hand hygene.  We have not added much to the panic buying - most of us stocked up in better times.  Many of us have shared our stockpiles, allieviating the current pressures on society.

Chuck was advocating appropriate hand hygene YEARS ago.  We have tried to share some science (like Babycat's graphs) and simple explanations of things like exponential.  Yet we only claim to be a talk forum.  (Yes I have bought chloroquine but it is both as a last resort and for use under doctor's supervision - I have been pointing out its dangers for weeks  https://www.avianflutalk.com/the-lancet-chloroquine-study_topic41609_post290328.html?KW=chloroquine#290328).  

So what specifically do you think is our misinformation?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rootmeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 12:14pm

Buckyball C60 (Buckminsterfullerene) has the strongest affinity to SARS-CoV-2 proteins!

From extensive docking of small ligands including antivirals and flavonoids, nothing compares with the binding efficiency
of buckyball C60 to the main protease of SARS-CoV-2 (6LU7), the post-fusion core 2019-nCoV S2 subunit (6LXT) and the spike protein of the SARS-CoV-2.
Ie: when the buckyball complexes to the spike protein, it changes the conformation of the protein and the complex cannot fit (like hand in glove) to the ACE2-receptor.
The antivirals are around -7 kcal/mol to 9 kcal/mol, so are some flavonoids (like Rutin) and glycyrrhizin (licorice) at aroung -10 kcal/mol. I won't say anything about the bioavailability of these flavonoids because that is not my turf.


But the results for Buckyball:

BuckminsterfullereneC60: 6LXT: -16.6 kcal/mol
BuckminsterfullereneC60: 6LU7: -13.6 kcal/mol
BuckminsterfullereneC60: 6VSB: -16.5 kcal/mol

So: this is definitely some kind of preventive and possibly works for cure as well.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Technophobe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 12:24pm

That is an impressively high number.  

Sadly, I can't get buckminsterfullerine, but I can get buckwheat (very rich in rutin).  Please can you tell me what rutin's precise actual score was?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiminNM Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 6:33pm

Originally posted by Technophobe Technophobe wrote:

That is an impressively high number.  

Sadly, I can't get buckminsterfullerine, but I can get buckwheat (very rich in rutin).  Please can you tell me what rutin's precise actual score was?

From the 3/25 post

Rutin:6LU7: -8.7
Rutin:6VSB: -9.2  

I noted it specifically because I happen to have some on hand.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 10:52pm

Losartan looks promising....glad I take it for my blood pressure! 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04312009

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote interwebber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 11:40pm

Ok. I'm a nuclear engineer, and it's easy for me to say this is way above my paygrade. Glad there are such smart people out there thinking and working on this stuff!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedTea Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 27 2020 at 11:55pm

Can we try Bictegravir, Tenofovir Alafenamide, Tenofovir Disoproxil Fumarate, and Rilpivirine? These are easily accessible to me and I'm quite curious. Thank you!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 12:05am

Originally posted by CRS, DrPH CRS, DrPH wrote:

Losartan looks promising....glad I take it for my blood pressure! 

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04312009


Oooooo I take it too For my blood pressure.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 12:09am

Read the study it does not say why they think Losartin will help.  Who can tell me what they think this drug does?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 1:29am

Originally posted by FluMom FluMom wrote:

Read the study it does not say why they think Losartin will help.  Who can tell me what they think this drug does?

https://www.livescience.com/coronavirus-covid-19-treatments.html

Losartan is a generic blood-pressure medication that some scientists are hoping could help patients with COVID-19. The University of Minnesota has launched two clinical trials using the inexpensive, generic drug. The first would evaluate whether losartan can prevent multi-organ failure in those hospitalized with COVID-19 pneumonia. The second would evaluate if the drug can prevent hospitalizations in the first place, Reuters reported.


Losartan works by blocking a receptor, or doorway into cells that the chemical called angiotensin II uses to enter the cells and raise blood pressure. SARS-CoV-2 binds to the angiotensin-converting enzyme 2 (ACE2) receptor, and it's possible, the thinking goes, that because losartan might block those receptors, it may prevent the virus from infecting cells. 


Complicating things, a paper published March 11 in the journal The Lancet has raised the possibility that common drugs for hypertension, such as ACE inhibitors and so-called angiotensin II receptor blockers (ARBs), which includes losartan, might actually spur the body to make more ACE2, thereby increasing the ability of the virus to infiltrate cells. A recent study of 355 COVID-19 patients in Italy (study in Italian) found that three-quarters of the patients who died had hypertension, and the authors propose this is one reason for their increased susceptibility. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WitchMisspelled Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 5:16am

If I'm reading that right, CRS, then Valsartan would be as effective as Losartan.  It too is an ACE2 inhibitor and I believe they're the same class as drugs.  I did a quick search and the difference between the two is compared to low dosages Valsartan works longer than Losartan.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CRS, DrPH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 12:33pm

Originally posted by WitchMisspelled WitchMisspelled wrote:

If I'm reading that right, CRS, then Valsartan would be as effective as Losartan.  It too is an ACE2 inhibitor and I believe they're the same class as drugs.  I did a quick search and the difference between the two is compared to low dosages Valsartan works longer than Losartan.  

You could be right on that!  These drugs usually vary by a small functional group in the molecule, usually to escape patent laws vs. for some clinical reason. 

I'm hearing that Losartan could end up being the new TamiFlu for this bug.  I'll keep watching.  I take it every day, it is a good blood pressure drug & very inexpensive.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FluMom Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 28 2020 at 12:57pm

I take it everyday too.  I had low blood pressure until I started on anastrozole for my breast cancer.  Tried a lot of different ones but the made me cough, Losartan works great no problems.  Hope you are correct about this protecting from Covid19.  Please keep us posted.  Thanks for the explanation CRS!



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