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Now tracking the new emerging South Africa Omicron Variant

Safe and effective?

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A-I View Drop Down
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    Posted: December 31 2021 at 8:04pm
"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Wonder why people don't worry about the MMR vaccine?  Could it be all vaccines are NOT created equal????

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2021 at 9:27pm

Wow, That's a huge admission from the AU government. But I'm not sure that AU$600,000 would be enough for some life changing injuries. You can bet your life that you'd have to sign a waiver agreeing not to take it further.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2021 at 9:50pm

An admission of liability.  Thats pretty significant. 

prepare for the worst,hope for the best.
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High-Level SummaryCOVID19 vaccines (Dec’2020 – present)All other vaccines 1990-presentUS Data Only
COVID19 vaccines (Dec’2020 – present)
US Data Only
All other vaccines 1990-present
Number of Adverse Reactions983,758864,722701,127752,963
Number of Life-Threatening Events23,40414,27110,8009,883
Number of Hospitalizations108,57282,56745,25138,714
Number of Deaths20,622*9,416*9,4765,221
# of Permanent Disabilities after vaccination34,61520,59211,04512,755



Number of Office Visits153,97048,941136,01646,876
# of Emergency Room/Department Visits107,785212,20687,198202,753
# of Birth Defects after vaccination747187422102


https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/12/25/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-12-17-2021/
"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2021 at 10:41pm

Originally posted by nzdad nzdad wrote:

An admission of liability.  Thats pretty significant. 

They took their finger out of the leak in the dike. Now the flood comes forth.

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2021 at 11:22pm

Originally posted by A-I A-I wrote:

High-Level SummaryCOVID19 vaccines (Dec’2020 – present)All other vaccines 1990-presentUS Data Only
COVID19 vaccines (Dec’2020 – present)
US Data Only
All other vaccines 1990-present
Number of Adverse Reactions983,758864,722701,127752,963
Number of Life-Threatening Events23,40414,27110,8009,883
Number of Hospitalizations108,57282,56745,25138,714
Number of Deaths20,622*9,416*9,4765,221
# of Permanent Disabilities after vaccination34,61520,59211,04512,755



Number of Office Visits153,97048,941136,01646,876
# of Emergency Room/Department Visits107,785212,20687,198202,753
# of Birth Defects after vaccination747187422102


https://vaersanalysis.info/2021/12/25/vaers-summary-for-covid-19-vaccines-through-12-17-2021/

I think the numbers speak for themselves as far as"safe" goes when compared to 30 years worth of comparable vaccine data.

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 2:21am

[url]https://twitter.com/ncousyn/status/1477036878046113794/photo/1[/url] or https://twitter.com/ncousyn/status/1477036878046113794/photo/1 20,000 vaccine related deaths, 100,000 hospitalizations....in these numbers...

Then in 2021 CoViD deaths-statistics [url]https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/[/url] or https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ going up from allmost 2 million to allmost 5,5 million....

Even if you take into account adverse effects per million of vaccinations (such numbers must be around the web...)-CoViD mass vaccinations in 2021 worldwide (or even in the US) being much higher then the number of vaccinations pre-pandemic you may wonder how "safe and effective" the vaccines are...

Long term healthrisks may be harder to calculate; if hearthdisease would increase-worldwide-by 1% due to vaccines-in real numbers you may be talking about millions of people over a longer time in real numbers....

As far as I allow myself to have an opinion; NPI/restrictions/lockdowns in 2020 may have been more effective then mass vaccinations were in 2021. Part of the problem being "stupid" vaccination "strategies" with vaccinated people spreading the virus large scale, CDC even stating "vaccinated did not need facemasks"....

Israel preparing a second booster campain. NL even thinking of three rounds of vaccinations in 2022, another in 2023...[url]https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/30/netherlands-preparing-three-covid-booster-rounds-2022[/url] or https://nltimes.nl/2021/12/30/netherlands-preparing-three-covid-booster-rounds-2022 ....Insanity !

DJ-Yes I was willing to accept a booster vaccination...but boosters will become less and less effective...








An amazing study led by  carefully dissecting the properties of omicron relative to other variants. TL;DR: omicron shows: -high levels of escape from vaccines with immunity partly restored post-3rd dose -lower syncytia formation -different preferred mechanism of cell entry


Among other studies....both Delta and Omicron may mutate further towards full immunity escape high speed this year...in part due to total insane vaccination strategies...STOP THE SPREAD ! You can not get "herd immunity" against CoViD via mass vaccinations...!

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote BeachMama Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 7:52am

I am not trying to start an argument…but it seems to me this forum is becoming more and more anti-vaccine.

I am very much pro-vaccine. I am a medical history buff, and when it was time to vaccinate my babies, I did so with gratitude and a shuddering remembrance for those over the years who have died of —what are now — preventable diseases.  My son is a senior in high school, and I will be grateful for him to receive his meningitis vaccine.  

I try to understand and respect those who have reservations about vaccines.  However, I have read enough about smallpox, babies with measles, and polio to realize that modern medicine is a Godsend.  One of my father’s siblings died of diphtheria.  It was an awful, terrifying, suffocating death that our children now do not need to fear.  

Again, please know that I am not judging anyone here.  However, my husband, children, and myself are all vaccinated against Covid and so are many people we know.  None have suffered any ill effect.  And as for myself, with my damaged lungs filled with polyps and scar tissue from repeated rounds of bronchitis and pneumonia — as well as asthma — I am so grateful for the scientists who created the Covid vaccine.  

With the intent of civility and respect, I will be happy to respond to polite discourse, but will not acknowledge attacks or rude statements. I hope that all of you have a blessed New Year’s Day!  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 8:34am

BeachMama, I am fully vaccinated, did even get a booster vaccine, very interested in preventative healthcare-vaccines are a (major)  part of that. 

What I hope can/should be discussed here-in a polite way-nobody is an expert here-is how safe are the vaccines, vaccine strategy, and how many boosters should we have to face ? 

I think non-pharma interventions may be more effective. Maybe in combination with (better/safer) vaccines....

But I understand your view as well...trying to find my way....In general vaccines, better sewage, hygiene, working conditions resulted in us getting older then just 40 till 1900....so do not get me wrong !

Happy new year !

We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 9:36am

Dutch Josh, good post!  Also the role of improved nutrition, i.e., less malnutrition, is a huge factor in the increased lifespan, and I think, a better quality of life for most.

BeachMama, I agree with you.  I try hard to understand the reticence of those vaccine-hesitant folks.  It is beyond me at times.  For example, a friend who lives in one of the most air- and water-polluted areas in the country, and has since the 80's, tells me she won't take the vax because she worries about what she's putting in her body.  And another who eats hot dogs every week...I struggle to understand.  I believe not getting vaxxed is a personal choice, BUT!  I believe the unvaxxed should also behave  responsibly, including masking and distancing when they go out.  The fact that some refuse or are cavalier about doing this when there are many vulnerable people around is offensive to me.  The attitude that I have perceived by some that I am 56, overweight, and with two pre-existing conditions and therefore my life is less valuable or important than if I were 30, slim and perfectly healthy, is abominable, founded I believe largely in societal prejudices, and tells me alot about those who have those opinions.  The fact is, all things being equal, I can still expect another 28 years of life -- so 1/3 of my life is still in front of me.  We are not expendable.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 11:49am

Originally posted by BeachMama BeachMama wrote:

I am not trying to start an argument…but it seems to me this forum is becoming more and more anti-vaccine.

I am very much pro-vaccine. I am a medical history buff, and when it was time to vaccinate my babies, I did so with gratitude and a shuddering remembrance for those over the years who have died of —what are now — preventable diseases.  My son is a senior in high school, and I will be grateful for him to receive his meningitis vaccine.  

I try to understand and respect those who have reservations about vaccines.  However, I have read enough about smallpox, babies with measles, and polio to realize that modern medicine is a Godsend.  One of my father’s siblings died of diphtheria.  It was an awful, terrifying, suffocating death that our children now do not need to fear.  

Again, please know that I am not judging anyone here.  However, my husband, children, and myself are all vaccinated against Covid and so are many people we know.  None have suffered any ill effect.  And as for myself, with my damaged lungs filled with polyps and scar tissue from repeated rounds of bronchitis and pneumonia — as well as asthma — I am so grateful for the scientists who created the Covid vaccine.  

With the intent of civility and respect, I will be happy to respond to polite discourse, but will not acknowledge attacks or rude statements. I hope that all of you have a blessed New Year’s Day!  

BeachMama, I hear what you're saying and I agree with you about vaccines in general. My babies are also fully vaccinated and my eldest is an undergraduate and has had four meningitis vaccinations prior to his commencement at uni. My hubby and I are also fully vaccinated and are very happy to have our top ups and boosters when they need to be had. 

The problem with the label anti vaxxer is that there are those who refuse and deny the efficacy of all vaccines, from the flu to the baby jabs, and then there are those who are fully vaccinated but haven't had the Covid ones. I come into the latter category. 

Personally I think vaccines are amazing and have changed the world we live in. Where I live there has recently been a big measles outbreak but I was secure in the knowledge that my children were vaccinated and healthy so it didn't worry me. At my son's uni a fellow student died of meningitis 3 months ago, he hadn't had the jab, it's not one that is commonly handed out here and some people have to pay for it. I paid for my son to have his doses at $140 a pop, and frankly I thought it was money well spent. I'll do the same for the next one to go to uni as well. 

So as you can see, I'm not an anti vaxxer. I'm a pro vaxxer. My reservations about the Covid vaccines boil down to one single thing and that is that they have not gone through the rigorous safety trials that vaccines have to pass in order to be fully certified, and most specifically, there is no medium or long term data on the safety of these vaccines. This data doesn't exist because not enough time has elapsed since they were invented for the data to be collected. The fact that millions of doses have been given is irrelevant, we still have no idea if there will be long term or even medium term safety issues. However if in 5-6 years time the safety data comes in and it's all good, then I'll be happy to reconsider and maybe have one, but until then, I'm not prepared to be part of this enormous vaccine trial. 

It would be great if we could differentiate between true anti vaxxers (those who refuse all vaccines)  and the Covid anti vaxxers.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cn65 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 11:49am

The problem is that for many being 50 plus overweight and with existing illnesses is that they are ONLY still alive thanks to the country's health services in this modern age.

This in turn has engenged in SOME an attitude that they can continue their unhealthy lifestyles overeating sh*t, drinking dawn til dusk and the rest and simply expect the country's resources to be applied to them to "cure them".

In turn the country's health services can only keep them alive in this condition because it has ample spare resources: finances, people, materials and supplies of pills etc.  Same for diabilities: we have ample resources in the West to modify things for the disabled so we can and do. Elsewhere in the world they cannot and its not done.

Once all these resources start to become in short supply then just as in the animal kingdom as seen in BBC wildlife programs then it is the weak and the vulnerable who are discarded, as if you do not then eventually the entire herd is endangered.

This is what we are starting to see now.  I've seen disabled town street parking being removed to give more space for pedestrians with wider pavements - the disabled spaces have been removed and the disabled have been told tough sh*t when they all start complaining.

If the pandemic was to get any worse then yes you would see this triageing of cormoditides increasing considerably, not just in the community as an opinion but in the hospitals as fact.  In short If you have existing illnesses then you don't get treated, Treatment being reserved for those most likely to survive and also be useful/active to society in the future. Of course in reality it's a lot more difficult when you have to choose between a young overweight drinking person and a much older fitter one -- it's not so easy to calculate which will survive better on less long term medication to be long term overall most useful and contribute the most to society.

To take an extreme example having a society where the majority are on long term sick, daily pills and the rest all of which is financed by taxes on the relativity few actually capable of a days full time work is a society which will collapse.  

I am of the opinion this is exactly what did happen when coroviruses first appeared in the human population eons ago. Before medicine, the weak, the vulnerable, the genetically susceptible all died off and we are the descendents of the survivors of those early pandemics.  Those survivors carried forward whever mutation was in their genetic DNA makup to enable them to shrug off the virus to their children and hence we now refer to them as "just another cold".

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 11:57am

Originally posted by Dutch Josh Dutch Josh wrote:

BeachMama, I am fully vaccinated, did even get a booster vaccine, very interested in preventative healthcare-vaccines are a (major)  part of that. 

What I hope can/should be discussed here-in a polite way-nobody is an expert here-is how safe are the vaccines, vaccine strategy, and how many boosters should we have to face ? 

I think non-pharma interventions may be more effective. Maybe in combination with (better/safer) vaccines....

But I understand your view as well...trying to find my way....In general vaccines, better sewage, hygiene, working conditions resulted in us getting older then just 40 till 1900....so do not get me wrong !

Happy new year !

I totally agree with the non pharma interventions Josh. I'm amazed by the readiness that people have dropped masks and distancing. I'm also a fan of Dr John Campbell and Dr Chris Martenson who both advocate the taking of Vit D and trying to improve your general health. We have to help ourselves as much as we can. It would be foolish to just rely on medicines to protect us.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 12:13pm

Originally posted by ViQueen24 ViQueen24 wrote:

Dutch Josh, good post!  Also the role of improved nutrition, i.e., less malnutrition, is a huge factor in the increased lifespan, and I think, a better quality of life for most.

BeachMama, I agree with you.  I try hard to understand the reticence of those vaccine-hesitant folks.  It is beyond me at times.  For example, a friend who lives in one of the most air- and water-polluted areas in the country, and has since the 80's, tells me she won't take the vax because she worries about what she's putting in her body.  And another who eats hot dogs every week...I struggle to understand.  I believe not getting vaxxed is a personal choice, BUT!  I believe the unvaxxed should also behave  responsibly, including masking and distancing when they go out.  The fact that some refuse or are cavalier about doing this when there are many vulnerable people around is offensive to me.  The attitude that I have perceived by some that I am 56, overweight, and with two pre-existing conditions and therefore my life is less valuable or important than if I were 30, slim and perfectly healthy, is abominable, founded I believe largely in societal prejudices, and tells me alot about those who have those opinions.  The fact is, all things being equal, I can still expect another 28 years of life -- so 1/3 of my life is still in front of me.  We are not expendable.

You're right about people eating rubbish and living off sugary drinks and then worrying about taking medication. But in addition to those people, there is another increasingly large group who are happy to live off junk food and then expect doctors to give them a magic pill that will offset all the bad side effects of their modern lifestyle. There must be a happy medium. One where people eat a largely healthy diet, are not sedentary, and take medications responsibility. 

I'm trying to instill that eating ethic with my children. I tell them yes it's fine to have a pizza when you're out with your friends, and follow it up with an ice cream, but why not drink water instead of soda on that occassion? I keep banging on about the 80/20 rule. Let's have the odd treat, push the boat out with a huge cake, but for 80% of the time, let's eat well, lots of salads and veges and good quality proteins, and low sugar. Of course it works while they're all living at home but I have to just hope they will take it out into the world with them. 

I don't think your life is less valuable than anyone elses. One of my cousins is in the extremely clinically vulnerable group and she has been self isolating since the beginning of all this and it's taken a terrible toll on her mental health and well being. The problem is that this is just a very difficult situation that the world finds itself in. I don't know what the solution is. We're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't.


"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 12:20pm

Originally posted by cn65 cn65 wrote:

The problem is that for many being 50 plus overweight and with existing illnesses is that they are ONLY still alive thanks to the country's health services in this modern age.

This in turn has engenged in SOME an attitude that they can continue their unhealthy lifestyles overeating sh*t, drinking dawn til dusk and the rest and simply expect the country's resources to be applied to them to "cure them".

In turn the country's health services can only keep them alive in this condition because it has ample spare resources: finances, people, materials and supplies of pills etc.  Same for diabilities: we have ample resources in the West to modify things for the disabled so we can and do. Elsewhere in the world they cannot and its not done.

Once all these resources start to become in short supply then just as in the animal kingdom as seen in BBC wildlife programs then it is the weak and the vulnerable who are discarded, as if you do not then eventually the entire herd is endangered.

This is what we are starting to see now.  I've seen disabled town street parking being removed to give more space for pedestrians with wider pavements - the disabled spaces have been removed and the disabled have been told tough sh*t when they all start complaining.

If the pandemic was to get any worse then yes you would see this triageing of cormoditides increasing considerably, not just in the community as an opinion but in the hospitals as fact.  In short If you have existing illnesses then you don't get treated, Treatment being reserved for those most likely to survive and also be useful/active to society in the future. Of course in reality it's a lot more difficult when you have to choose between a young overweight drinking person and a much older fitter one -- it's not so easy to calculate which will survive better on less long term medication to be long term overall most useful and contribute the most to society.

To take an extreme example having a society where the majority are on long term sick, daily pills and the rest all of which is financed by taxes on the relativity few actually capable of a days full time work is a society which will collapse.  

I am of the opinion this is exactly what did happen when coroviruses first appeared in the human population eons ago. Before medicine, the weak, the vulnerable, the genetically susceptible all died off and we are the descendents of the survivors of those early pandemics.  Those survivors carried forward whever mutation was in their genetic DNA makup to enable them to shrug off the virus to their children and hence we now refer to them as "just another cold".

Do you remember that film where an asteroid is about to strike earth? The one with Tea Leone as the lead character, and I think Morgan Freeman was the president. In it, the president announced that certain people had been selected to be saved due to their expertise regardless of age, and the remaining places in the underground "ark" were to handed out by lottery, but no one over 60 was eligible to be in the lottery, and so the Vanessa Redgrave character (Tea Leone's mother in the film) jumped off the roof? I guess that's exactly what would happen. We would give priority to the young and healthy. 

If you try to emigrate to NZ you have to take a medical and they refuse anyone who is overweight or who has any condition that requires daily medication or who has special needs. Why? Because we are a small country with a small health care system and we can't afford to increase the burden on that service. We have to keep our resources for our own citizens. If we had unlimited resources then maybe we'd think differently, but we triage where we can already, and the border is the most obvious place. 


"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ViQueen24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 12:46pm

Originally posted by cn65 cn65 wrote:

The problem is that for many being 50 plus overweight and with existing illnesses is that they are ONLY still alive thanks to the country's health services in this modern age.

This in turn has engenged in SOME an attitude that they can continue their unhealthy lifestyles overeating sh*t, drinking dawn til dusk and the rest and simply expect the country's resources to be applied to them to "cure them".

In turn the country's health services can only keep them alive in this condition because it has ample spare resources: finances, people, materials and supplies of pills etc.  Same for diabilities: we have ample resources in the West to modify things for the disabled so we can and do. Elsewhere in the world they cannot and its not done.

Once all these resources start to become in short supply then just as in the animal kingdom as seen in BBC wildlife programs then it is the weak and the vulnerable who are discarded, as if you do not then eventually the entire herd is endangered.

This is what we are starting to see now.  I've seen disabled town street parking being removed to give more space for pedestrians with wider pavements - the disabled spaces have been removed and the disabled have been told tough sh*t when they all start complaining.

If the pandemic was to get any worse then yes you would see this triageing of cormoditides increasing considerably, not just in the community as an opinion but in the hospitals as fact.  In short If you have existing illnesses then you don't get treated, Treatment being reserved for those most likely to survive and also be useful/active to society in the future. Of course in reality it's a lot more difficult when you have to choose between a young overweight drinking person and a much older fitter one -- it's not so easy to calculate which will survive better on less long term medication to be long term overall most useful and contribute the most to society.

To take an extreme example having a society where the majority are on long term sick, daily pills and the rest all of which is financed by taxes on the relativity few actually capable of a days full time work is a society which will collapse.  

I am of the opinion this is exactly what did happen when coroviruses first appeared in the human population eons ago. Before medicine, the weak, the vulnerable, the genetically susceptible all died off and we are the descendents of the survivors of those early pandemics.  Those survivors carried forward whever mutation was in their genetic DNA makup to enable them to shrug off the virus to their children and hence we now refer to them as "just another cold".

I hear you.  Most of what you said is not applicable to me, however.  Underlying health conditions -- asthma, autoimmunity (limited scleroderma).  The former runs in my family, and killed two of my uncles.  The latter my doctor attributes to being abused when I was young.

The dependence on US health services?  I do not take any meds for the scleroderma; I felt and still feel the ones offered to me have worse side effects than the symptoms I experience from the condition.  I do breathing exercises and play harmonica, which helps keep the asthma at bay.  I have one wellness visit a year, and otherwise do not go unless I am sick or injured, an average of 1-2 yearly.  The greatest outlay the US medical system has had to make on my behalf was four hours physical therapy, which I co-paid to deal with scleroderma and arthritis pain and a pinched nerve in my upper back.  This was to avoid taking NSAIDS.

As for diet, the only bad diet I had was when I was at work.  Something nobody talks about, but when you work in food service of course you are offered a free or heavi!y subsidized meal while you are there.  You either eat the meager healthy offerings, eat the least damaging unhealthy offerings, or bring in your own food.  #1 is laughable if you work a lengthy tenure or alot of hours or both; #3 doesn't happen unless you get into management.  They don't pay you enough to buy that much food, especially the longer you work there, getting 2% raises.  Making a change from working any other kind of job while taking care of an ill parent with no help is not likely since anything other than retail or food service does not offer a very flexible schedule.  You also as you age are prone to arthritis and repetitive motion injuries from being on your feet.  And pain issues make it hard to exercise.

There was a time when minimum wage was tied to inflation and/or the Index Of Productivity.  Perhaps it needs to be again.  It would perhaps help address some of the issues you mention.

BTW, it is worth mentioning that anybody, old or young, fat or thin, healthy or with underliers/cormorbidities that has ever taken an antibiotic is most likely alive only at the behest of modern medicine.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote nzdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 2:57pm

Im 50. Im healthy, and have no underlying health problems.i dont drink ever, i dont smoke, and i gave up coffee years ago. As a prepper, my goal is to have no vices whatsoever, and i have achieved that goal.

I eat healthy and  lead a physically active life.

I have had every vaccine in the past without exception. As have my wife and children .

Im not anti vax. I find the term childish and offensive. 

Im am however, not going to allow my family to be used as literal lab rats for this mrna crap.

prepare for the worst,hope for the best.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KiwiMum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 3:17pm

Originally posted by nzdad nzdad wrote:

Im 50. Im healthy, and have no underlying health problems.i dont drink ever, i dont smoke, and i gave up coffee years ago. As a prepper, my goal is to have no vices whatsoever, and i have achieved that goal.

I eat healthy and  lead a physically active life.

I have had every vaccine in the past without exception. As have my wife and children .

Im not anti vax. I find the term childish and offensive. 

Im am however, not going to allow my family to be used as literal lab rats for this mrna crap.

Well said. I couldn't agree with you more.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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I feel like I've been forced to have the vaccine to be honest. I am prone to blood clots and have had a pulmonary embolism in the past. I knew the risk I would be taking in getting the vaccine. It wasn't an ad or the media or influence. It was everyone wanted to get back to normal and the vaccine was a way to do that... I feel let down that now it's booster after booster. That is just not possible for me. I feel let down that I took the chance on the vaccine when I know if (when) I catch covid I will still need medical help.. I am unfortunately one of the people that have underlining health issues (through no fault of my own) that needs the NHS. The funny thing is I'm technically fit and healthy lol... So for me personally lockdowns were always gonna be the best option but I understand that's not a longterm solution. I can't see any right answers out of this to be honest.


* Labels cause harm, division and negative effect. We learn as children not to do this. But it seems to have been encouraged during Covid.

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Originally posted by Littlesmile Littlesmile wrote:

I feel like I've been forced to have the vaccine to be honest. I am prone to blood clots and have had a pulmonary embolism in the past. I knew the risk I would be taking in getting the vaccine. It wasn't an ad or the media or influence. It was everyone wanted to get back to normal and the vaccine was a way to do that... I feel let down that now it's booster after booster. That is just not possible for me. I feel let down that I took the chance on the vaccine when I know if (when) I catch covid I will still need medical help.. I am unfortunately one of the people that have underlining health issues (through no fault of my own) that needs the NHS. The funny thing is I'm technically fit and healthy lol... So for me personally lockdowns were always gonna be the best option but I understand that's not a longterm solution. I can't see any right answers out of this to be honest.


* Labels cause harm, division and negative effect. We learn as children not to do this. But it seems to have been encouraged during Covid.

I don't think anyone knows the answer, and that's the problem. There is a dutch psychologist who said recently in an interview that 30% of the population actively wanted to have the jab and sort it out asap, 40% didn't really want it but weren't prepared to rock the boat and so had it to be "socially responsible" or because they were pressurised into having it by family, colleagues or society in general, and the remaining 30% who actively didn't want it. Of this last category, he said a good proportion of them were forced to have it because of work and or financial committments but given the opportunity, they still wouldn't have had it. 

I keep thinking about what this man said when I read about hesitancy in getting a booster shot. I guess those people are the ones in the middle 40%. I've started to categorise the people I know into either group 1, 2 or 3. It's an interesting exercise to do.

"Once you've decided that something's absolutely true, you've closed your mind on it, and a closed mind doesn't go anywhere. Question everything. That's what education's all about." ~ David Eddings
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I think anyone who wants to get the vaxx should be afforded the opportunity and allowed to do so and do so knowingly and willingly with informed consent. But to use coercion in the form of vaxx mandates is wrong and make no mistake it is coercion plain and simple.  

But the term "safe and effective" in relation to the vaxx is not entirely accurate. There are people that have died as a direct result of being vaxxed and there are people that have had adverse reactions and some of those are life long injuries. And the effectiveness, well we all know where that stands again not entirely accurate.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dutch Josh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 01 2022 at 8:56pm

Maybe one other point; location....So far-still-New Zealand is doing quite well by isolation, hardly any import of variants, good border controls. There the risks may be different then for NW Europe, parts of North America etc. 

We are not-that much-all in the same boat....high population with open borders puts NL in high risk, we should be more willing to take some risks with vaccines, then more remote, lower population countries/area' s...For that matter Western Australia also was in a good position...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Littlesmile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 4:19am

Yeah I agree, we are not all in the same boat. I think people should understand that, and be more considerate to others. Even if every country was at the same stage of the virus so many differences between places would equal different outcomes. Some countries are going to be lucky (or smart) and some will not be great.

For us here in Ni it would very likely go into chaos pretty quickly, that would be my fear. And I know there are people just waiting for that to happen to gain control again.. When I was born the dark 'troubles' were still strong here. Living in constant fear, control, no choice and having no safety is something Ni had to live with. Our parents had to check for bombs before they started their jobs. Gangs of kids were employed to 'work' in estates. We could not walk down certain areas. Businesses were bullied and controlled. People getting crucified and left for all to see in the morning was even a common thing when I was young. Everyone had to turn a blind eye. WE DO NOT want to go back 30/40 years into the past.

So yes some places will be very much worse off than others. 



:-)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Littlesmile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 10:12am

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/nov/03/northernireland1


This was only in 2002 in Northern Ireland. We have just recently come into better times here and I would not like to see it going backwards... I can see how people would never believe or even know the things that have happened over here but it is very well documented online. Some of the old photos are pretty shocking but I also find them amazing too. Like history art.

This is one of the reasons why I started speaking up on this forum as if things do go bad for some places then Ni will be one of the first to go. Then at least I can document here what is happening. And maybe can help others. The one good thing about being in Ni is we have already lived through terrible times, we got used to it and not only survived but changed for the better.

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Fortunately for the populations of Australia and New Zealand their combined total experience of dealing with covid-19 amounts to little more than diddly squat.

I dont know why some people are so scared of the vaccines or why they falsely claim the vaccines (as used in the west) have not gone through all the normal safety trials , if these same people had a basic grasp of maths then they would have to be shitting bricks at the thought of catching covid whilst being unvaccinated as their chances of dying from covid are orders of magnitude greater than dying from the vaccines.

In the UK  we are approaching 34 Million that have been triple jabbed and we are not all dropping like flies , fortunately at the moment the vaccines are keeping the hospital admissions and deaths to tolerable numbers (expected to rise as the effects of christmas gatherings feed through) , we all wait with baited breath to find out what happens as omricon spreads through the higher age groups. Will Bojo;s "brave decision" (see yes minister/prime minster for context of brave) prove to be a master stroke or a complete clusterf##k , we should have a good idea in the next few weeks, but even in the best case scenario, disruptions due to staff shortages are still very likely.

 Frankly I am beginning to think that some people should have to pass a basic intelligence test before being allowed to use any form of social media , as the amount of utter crap on Arsebook,Twatter, Boobtube and instagranny is beyond a joke, what is worse is the number of grown adults who actually believe even half of it!!!!! 

I dont count people who keep posting pictures of themselves wearing different clown suits as grown adults , as clearly they have their own problems anyway.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 3:58pm

https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe2d3ad957f.filesusr.com/ugd/adf864_8c97b2396c2842b3b05975bfbd8254cb.pdf

And yes it is a peer reviewed study. But you won't find this study or any article about it in the MSN.   

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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And since both papers rely on "pharmacovigilence" for their findings, this is editorial paper by the editor of the peer reviewed journal Science, Public Health Policy and the Law and is more than appropriate to the discussion and directly applies to the Walach paper.


There are two messages from those who hold appointed offices or other influential positions in Public Health on long-term vaccine safety. The first message is that long-term randomized doubleblinded placebo-controlled clinical trials are not necessary for the long-term study of vaccine safety because we have “pharmacovigilance”; i.e. longterm post-market safety surveillance that is supported by widely accessible, passive vaccine adverse events tracking systems.

The second message is that any use of those very same vaccine adverse events tracking systems that leads to the inference or conclusion that vaccines might cause serious adverse events or death is unsupported by such systems.

When those seeking support for public health initiatives,such as a new vaccination program, offer evidence that long-term vaccine safety studies are well in hand due to the possibility of detecting adverse events that happened following vaccination, they are either (a) unaware that the vaccine adverse events tracking systems upon which they are basing their confidence about society’s ability to detect and track vaccine adverse events are alleged to be unable to be used to infer causal links between health outcomes and vaccination exposure, or (b) participating in a disinformation campaign to end scrutiny over the absence of properly controlled long-term randomized clinical trials to assess longterm vaccine safety. Neither of these is sufficient empirical basis for the knowledge claim of long term safety.


https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe2d3ad957f.filesusr.com/ugd/adf864_4588b37931024c5d98e35a84acf8069a.pdf


Yeah I found it on twitter after a friend on facebook who saw it on youtube got it from a Instagram friend after he went to the circus to see the clowns  



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I've always been a Batman kinda guy myself, but what would i know,im from new zealand. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 4:49pm

Originally posted by A-I A-I wrote:

https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe2d3ad957f.filesusr.com/ugd/adf864_8c97b2396c2842b3b05975bfbd8254cb.pdf

And yes it is a peer reviewed study. But you won't find this study or any article about it in the MSN.   

Per reviewed by who? The guys a discredited quack....

The German researcher Harald Walach.Anja Jahn

The scientific community still wonders how it could have happened. A defender of homeopathy and other pseudosciences researcher, the German Harald Walach, managed to publish two high-impact studies last June in which it stated that vaccines against covid cause practically the same deaths what to avoid and what masks they are dangerous for children. Both articles are based on sloppy calculations and their conclusions are totally wrong. The two specialized magazines that published them, VaccinesJAMA PediatricsThey have backed off in a few days and retracted them. The University of Poznan (Poland), where Walach worked, has announced that it will not renew the investigator’s contract. The German doctor Edzard Ernst, scourge of pseudosciences, has launched on his blog a question many others ask themselves: “Is Professor Harald Walach incompetent or is he a liar?”

Walach, a 64-year-old psychologist with no training in viruses or vaccines, has a flamboyant track record. One of his latest research, based on surveys of 10 Catholic Christians, concludes that pray the rosary “It can generate health benefits.” In other previous studies it gives rise to alleged cases of distant healing. And it has also launched theories with abstruse concepts of quantum physics to try to explain alleged parapsychological phenomena, such as telepathy. In 2012, Walach was named “Pseudoscientist of the year” by the Austrian Society for Critical Thinking.


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Originally posted by nzdad nzdad wrote:

I've always been a Batman kinda guy myself, but what would i know,im from new zealand. 


LOL Happy New Year NZdad

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Originally posted by A-I A-I wrote:

https://www.skirsch.com/covid/Deaths.pdf

or this one  

Steve Kirsch, another discredited quack.

What has alarmed many of the scientists associated with CETF, though, are Kirsch’s reactions to the work he’s funded—both successes and failures. He’s refused to accept the results of a hydroxychloroquine trial that showed the drug had no value in treating covid, for instance, instead blaming investigators for poor study design and statistical errors. 

He’s also publicly railed against what he claims is a campaign against drugs like fluvoxamine and ivermectin. And, according to three members of CETF’s scientific advisory board, he put pressure on them to promote fluvoxamine for clinical use without conclusive data that it worked for covid.

More recently, he’s adopted extremist positions on covid vaccines, which he alleges are “toxic.” He has claimed that one in 1,000 people who have received mRNA vaccines have died as a result, and even claimed the vaccines “kill more people than they save” at an FDA public forum, which was first reported by the Daily Beast

As Kirsch has gone deeper into the anti-vaccine scene, many professional associates have increasingly distanced themselves from him. In May, all 12 members of CETF’s scientific advisory board resigned, citing his alarming dangerous claims and erratic behavior. Over the summer, the conflict reached his most recent startup, M10. Its board told him that if he wanted to remain part of the company he would have to stop making public anti-vaccine statements. In September, he resigned as CEO and gave up his board seat.

So how did a man once intent on furthering science become a source of misinformation that undermines the very research he funded?

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Originally posted by ksc ksc wrote:

Originally posted by A-I A-I wrote:

https://cf5e727d-d02d-4d71-89ff-9fe2d3ad957f.filesusr.com/ugd/adf864_8c97b2396c2842b3b05975bfbd8254cb.pdf

And yes it is a peer reviewed study. But you won't find this study or any article about it in the MSN.   

Per reviewed by who? The guys a discredited quack....

The German researcher Harald Walach.Anja Jahn

The scientific community still wonders how it could have happened. A defender of homeopathy and other pseudosciences researcher, the German Harald Walach, managed to publish two high-impact studies last June in which it stated that vaccines against covid cause practically the same deaths what to avoid and what masks they are dangerous for children. Both articles are based on sloppy calculations and their conclusions are totally wrong. The two specialized magazines that published them, VaccinesJAMA PediatricsThey have backed off in a few days and retracted them. The University of Poznan (Poland), where Walach worked, has announced that it will not renew the investigator’s contract. The German doctor Edzard Ernst, scourge of pseudosciences, has launched on his blog a question many others ask themselves: “Is Professor Harald Walach incompetent or is he a liar?”

Walach, a 64-year-old psychologist with no training in viruses or vaccines, has a flamboyant track record. One of his latest research, based on surveys of 10 Catholic Christians, concludes that pray the rosary “It can generate health benefits.” In other previous studies it gives rise to alleged cases of distant healing. And it has also launched theories with abstruse concepts of quantum physics to try to explain alleged parapsychological phenomena, such as telepathy. In 2012, Walach was named “Pseudoscientist of the year” by the Austrian Society for Critical Thinking.


It has now been re-published in Science, Public Health Policy and the Law which is a peer-reviewed medical journal

And read the  related editorial by the same Medical Journal as well that I cited.

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Epic  ! Happy new years to you too AI ! 

Thank you 

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Definition of quack...... some  one who refuses  to be bought by big pharma.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 5:11pm

I suppose virologists Dr Luc Montagnier and Dr Geert Vanden Bossche are "quacks" as well? And of course Dr Robert Malone has to included as since he like they all have a negative opinion of the vaxx. So any data or professional who has anything to say that puts the vaxx safety or efficacy into question is a "quack" regardless of their past experience or education level. Does that about sum it up?

Vaxx safety and effectiveness is merely an ongoing hypothesis being propagated as fact.

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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It has now been re-published in Science, Public Health Policy and the Law which is a peer-reviewed medical journal

And read the  related editorial by the same Medical Journal as well that I cited.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Peer reviewed medical journal? It looks like a website designed by a 12 year old. Is  Dr. Lyons-Weiler  the blind peer who reviews the articles on that "Medical Journal"?

Maybe if they keep it up they'll get a spot on Joe Rogan's Podcast. 

Try harder, a teenager could fact check that click bait...

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And do provide a link to your sources Ksc. Always nice to see who's saying what and from where.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 5:47pm

Originally posted by ksc ksc wrote:

It has now been re-published in Science, Public Health Policy and the Law which is a peer-reviewed medical journal

And read the  related editorial by the same Medical Journal as well that I cited.

------------------------------------------------------------------

Peer reviewed medical journal? It looks like a website designed by a 12 year old. Is  Dr. Lyons-Weiler  the blind peer who reviews the articles on that "Medical Journal"?

Maybe if they keep it up they'll get a spot on Joe Rogan's Podcast. 

Try harder, a teenager could fact check that click bait...

LOL it's abundantly clear you didn't read the editorial or you would know he didn't peer review it. And it is also clear you have no idea of what the process is for peer reviewed articles or what it entails. And as such your "fact checking" is worthless. What is interesting is your trying (weakly I might ass) to disparage the editor as well as the publication, yet not the information. That is to say you attacked the messenger but not the information. Would you like to state that all the VAERS information is false? Because that is exactly what the information is based on or on other pharmacovigilance systems data.

Here's a link to the peer review process in scientific journals to educate yourself. You won't read it but I at least tried.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4975196/

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 6:25pm

What's abundantly clear is Science, Public Health Policy and the Law is not a peer-reviewed medical journal It's a click bait site looking for "donations". Did you donate by PayPal or Venmo?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 6:59pm

Thanks for the link, the retraction to your study that is now relegated to a blog site can be found there.....

Retraction: Walach et al. The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations-We Should Rethink the Policy. Vaccines 2021, 9, 693

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34232371/

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 7:23pm

Originally posted by ksc ksc wrote:

What's abundantly clear is Science, Public Health Policy and the Law is not a peer-reviewed medical journal It's a click bait site looking for "donations". Did you donate by PayPal or Venmo?

How would you know what constitutes a peer reviewed medical journal when you don't even know what constitutes a peer reviewed article or study? Granted it's a fairly new medical journal but that has ZERO to due with the scientific articles in it. The scientific articles either stand the test or they don't.  Do you know who funds and publishes the Lancet? Or the BMJ? Have you ever even wondered? Didn't think so.

And I did donated, I donated a link to you so you know what the peer review process for scientific publication is. Knowledge is priceless. And after you have educated yourself to what the peer review process is I suggest you read the following article as to what the circumstances and situations are that effect scientific journals and what they publish. And you know you never thought about what those may be. 

https://ahrp.org/sciences-gatekeepers-a-credibility-gap_dr-lawrence-altman/

And again since you didn't answer do you think the VAERS information is false and fraudulent?

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A-I Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 7:32pm

Originally posted by ksc ksc wrote:

Thanks for the link, the retraction to your study that is now relegated to a blog site can be found there.....

Retraction: Walach et al. The Safety of COVID-19 Vaccinations-We Should Rethink the Policy. Vaccines 2021, 9, 693

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34232371/

Retracted and then republished. And again you would have known that if you actually looked at the dates of the articles, you know part of researching. OR actually read the editorial which covered this retraction and was the entire reason for the editorial. Hardly groundbreaking info here since my post on the editorial and the link covers it about 6 or 7 posts back LOL. DO KEEP UP  "FACT CHECKER"

"Facts don't care about your feelings" I'M A UNVAXXED DEVIL so kiss my rebel ass.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ksc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2022 at 7:48pm

I guess the bogus study has now been "republished" on avianflutalk too. Maybe you can get AAAAAAA---------------IIIIIIIIIIIIIIII to peer review it...

Ironically, one of the reasons for the retraction of the bogus study was misrepresenting adverse event data. You should really study up on that so you won't get fooled so often by these blog sites you frequent. 

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